Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: colineddie1 on January 14, 2016, 10:07:14 PM
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Who's going??? - decided this year to say Hi to as many of you as I can (feeling brave) :)
Have you seen on the Lee Valley site they are also charging for parking so please be careful.
Looking forward to another freezing cold morning 8)
Jane
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You will only pay for parking after a certain time
And Yes myself and wife will be there ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Good point about the car parking....
https://www.visitleevalley.org.uk/en/content/cms/whatson/the-ultimate-snowdrop-sale16/ (https://www.visitleevalley.org.uk/en/content/cms/whatson/the-ultimate-snowdrop-sale16/)
Event:
The Ultimate Snowdrop Sale
Venue:
Myddelton House Gardens
Address:
Bulls Cross
Enfield
Middlesex
EN2 9HG
Date:
Saturday, 23 January 2016
Time:
10:30 - 12:00
Price:
Entry fee to the sale applies
There will be a select range of nurseries will be selling both common and rare Snowdrops.
This sale is a must for early Snowdrop purchases, but you need to be quick as we anticipate another fast and furious sale!
There is a small charge for car parking - please arrive early to avoid disappointment!
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How do we know the times? where do you pay? information is a little bit sketch this year
You will only pay for parking after a certain time
And Yes myself and wife will be there ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I will try and find the post that was put on facebook ,I am sure that it said if you were attending the snowdrop sale that parking was free
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Quote
Myddelton House Gardens The main gates to the site will open from 7:30am but the Gardens do not open until 10:00am. The sale starts at 10:30am. We have an automated car park charging machine and charges apply from 10:00am but if you are coming just for the Snowdrop Sale and not visiting the Garden, charges do not apply. All funds raised from the car parking charges will assist in the maintenance of the Gardens which will remain free to visit. The cafe will be serving tea, coffee and bacon butties from 8am
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I think Chas is correct but it is disappointing that you either pay a parking fee or you don't visit the garden. That seems a silly compromise.
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Not silly at, Alan - it's commonplace, logical and generous. Given that the gardens are open with free entry and are supported by the car parking fees, it's only fair that those who want to visit the gardens pay to park. It's actually rather generous of them to allow people who might only be interested in attending the Ultimate Snowdrop Sale to waive the parking fee. It's not unlike the system that many gardens running as a visitor attraction operate on - entry to the gardens requires you to pay in one way or another, access to the plant sales area is free - i.e. RHS gardens, Beth Chatto etc etc.
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I cannot fault the logic of what you say, Matt. There used to be free entry and free parking at Myddleton House Garden; I'm just sad to see that has been lost.
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According to the website the car parking is £2 for up to 2 hours and £3 for longer. I would say in the scale of charges for garden visiting that is very reasonable and a small token towards the upkeep.
We originally were not able to go to the sale this year but will now be there so see you there Chas and Jan, Jane, Emma?Arthur? Jennie? anyone
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I suppose the car parking is more expensive for those at the sale who end up not buying anything.
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Precious few places these days where parking is free anyway!
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You could look at it that way David or you could think that after you have paid for parking there is less in the kitty to spend on snowdrops - so if you end up not buying anything then the parking fee should not be a problem. Although I try to restrain myself, I have never yet gone to the Myddleton House sale and come-away empty-handed.
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You could look at it that way David or you could think that after you have paid for parking there is less in the kitty to spend on snowdrops - so if you end up not buying anything then the parking fee should not be a problem. Although I try to restrain myself, I have never yet gone to the Myddleton House sale and come-away empty-handed.
;D
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I will be attending.
There is a charge for attending the sale of £3.50. I have always understood that this goes to Myddleton House to help with preservation of the gardens. Surely this is the equivalent of paying the car park fee.
Where is it stated that entrance to the garden will be allowed to those attending the sale only if they pay for car parking. Surely this is impossible to police.
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I have noticed that some internet search results for the event bring up details for a previous year which state parking is free - this could lead to confusion if one does not notice that the date is past!
Might be an idea for those attending to contact M. House to ask them what the situation is....
08456 770 600 info@leevalleypark.org.uk
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The message that I put up earlier Maggie,is what Myddleton House have themselves put on Facebook,regarding parking etc,will perhaps suggest they amend the Lee valley posting
Now about to start polishing my suit of armour ,it will slow me down in the dash to the table...........................................but a lot of people will have sore elbows ;D ;D
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Now about to start polishing my suit of armour ,it will slow me down in the dash to the table...........................................but a lot of people will have sore elbows ;D ;D
a suggestion Chas .... perhaps borrow a hoverboard ???? ::) ;D
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Although I try to restrain myself, I have never yet gone to the Myddleton House sale and come-away empty-handed.
Quelle surprise! ;D
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Hope that this clears things up a bit,this is the reply to my query
Thank you Chas. Your message has been passed on. There will be staff and volunteers on the day to answer any queries. Just to clarify, car parking is free if visitors are attending the snowdrop sale only. Car parking fees apply from 9:30 for those that wish to visit the rest of the gardens. All proceed will assist in the maintenance of the gardens. Money raised from the snowdrop sale will go towards the restoration of the Rock Garden.
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I shall be there ;D . Don't know how they are going to police the entry to the garden . I do like looking round the garden too.
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I too do not know how they are going to police the people in the event - I spend a good hour or so just grazing around the stalls once the initial rush has gone. I know it is cheap the price of the parking etc but how much money are they going to make from the café serving food from 8.00/8.30 till 10.30 - they would not even be open at that time if it was not for the sale
Lets face it if it was not for the sale they would not get a mass of people like they do on a freezing January Saturday - they would get an odd dropper (yes me included) but not enough to cover what will be spent in the café in those couple of hours - maybe charge an extra 1.00 for entry to the sale or charge on the gate and it covers the sale and gardens - just throwing my two pennith in
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Myddleton House was a welcome find when I was in the UK the year before last. My daughter and I had gone to a garden at the beginning of the road and by mistake went the wrong way when leaving and the name rung a bell when I saw the House name. Of course it was E A Bowles home. I HAD to visit it and so another day in my stay we returned. I was captivated to be in the same garden as Bowles created and to see the rock garden and be able to identify a rose with the wrong name in the rose garden. The head gardener was very obliging and gave me a photocopy of the old rose garden plans. This was so exciting for me. If you haven't read E A Bowles biography I suggest that you do.
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Capel Manor Gardens http://www.capelmanorgardens.co.uk/ (http://www.capelmanorgardens.co.uk/) are nearby but only open on weekdays in winter so you cannot combine a visit there with the Myddleton House sale.
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Well there are other good places to go, I am always told that Forty Hall is well worth a visit
http://www.fortyhallestate.co.uk (http://www.fortyhallestate.co.uk)
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'Emma Thick' will be for sale at Myddelton from Glen Chantry . They will have 4 for sale . I'm an immortal
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£50 return with easyjet and I'm very tempted but that would burn a hole in the spending money for Norfolk
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I'm an immortal
I read it as 'immoral' at first, got quite exited :o ::) ;D
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Wonder if Lee Valley are going to issue a pre taster list just to get our adrenalin flowing (as if that's needed with the rugby scrum)
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Well, they have in the past Jane but it's a new head gardener so perhaps he wants to do things differently?
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They have , let me go look for it
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Joe from Monksilver Nursery has asked us to pass on some urgent information to truly whet your galanthophilic appetites!
The Ultimate Snowdrop Sale at Myddelton House Gardens on Saturday 23rd January is expected to be the most exceptional ever. This year’s early season has meant that many more varieties will be available than previously.
Rare and highly desirable snowdrops such as ‘Anglesey Aurora’, ‘Anglesey Candlelight’, ‘Anglesey Orange Tip’, ‘Anglesey Spiky’, ‘Blue Streak’, ‘Devon Marble’, ‘Green Eyes’, ‘Green Tear’, ‘Janet’, ‘Joe Sharman’, ‘Jubilee Green’, ‘Moses Basket’, ‘Ruth Dashwood’, ‘Yarnton’ and, yes, EVEN the record-setting ‘Golden Fleece’ (pictured) WILL be available for sale from various sellers.
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'Emma Thick' will be for sale at Myddelton from Glen Chantry . They will have 4 for sale . I'm an immortal
About time too.
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Woop woop 8)
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Thanks Emma, looks like time for thick wallets and purses ;D
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Joe from Monksilver Nursery has asked us to pass on some urgent information to truly whet your galanthophilic appetites!
The Ultimate Snowdrop Sale at Myddelton House Gardens on Saturday 23rd January is expected to be the most exceptional ever. This year’s early season has meant that many more varieties will be available than previously.
Rare and highly desirable snowdrops such as ‘Anglesey Aurora’, ‘Anglesey Candlelight’, ‘Anglesey Orange Tip’, ‘Anglesey Spiky’, ‘Blue Streak’, ‘Devon Marble’, ‘Green Eyes’, ‘Green Tear’, ‘Janet’, ‘Joe Sharman’, ‘Jubilee Green’, ‘Moses Basket’, ‘Ruth Dashwood’, ‘Yarnton’ and, yes, EVEN the record-setting ‘Golden Fleece’ (pictured) WILL be available for sale from various sellers.
Ohhhhhhh how I wish - I never get the ones I want - there are so many though - wish list would be Anglesey Spiky (just because it is a Spiky and Golden Fleece - other year grabbed what I thought was flock on de nige the big white label was stuck in it but turned out when I got home and read the label it was E A Bowles (I wanted that one as well but they had sold out ;D) things happen for a reason
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Golden Fleece ain't going to be cheap ! I reckon about £500
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http://youtu.be/DmAA7beQ-lM (http://youtu.be/DmAA7beQ-lM)
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Well I see it took me about 30 seconds to cross the start line. No wonder I missed some 'drops that I was looking for.
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http://youtu.be/WiWiefOlrGY (http://youtu.be/WiWiefOlrGY)
Hadn't seen this longer video before
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Would football fans be allowed to surge like that? ;)
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Would football fans be allowed to surge like that? ;)
No controlling these 'drop fiends, Ashley - you'd need more than mounted police for that lot!
I don't think they are all as fat as they look, by the way - a lot of them have hot water bottles stuffed in their clothes to keep warm on the wait! ;D ;D
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Just watched You Tube video of Myddleton House Snowdrop Sale - looks really wild. Unfortunately I live too far away to attend!!
Off to Cambo next month - it's a bit more civilised. Susan H
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I'm just about to set off for a last-minute weekend away. I can't get away in February and am desperate to get out. The weather's picking up so there should be no travel problems. Myddleton tomorrow and Steve Owen's on Sunday is the plan. I do not really want to buy anything as snowdrops are not really thriving here so I will feel a bit of an impostor; but if there are any cheap ones left I might treat myself. :)
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Weather has turned wet and horrible again up here so I hope it will be better for the 'drop fiends at Myddleton etc.
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Myddleton tomorrow and Steve Owen's on Sunday is the plan.
Vivien, I can promise you that Sunday here will be the opposite of Myddleton House on Saturday.
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On our way ;D yes its nearly 4am and 4hr drive :( looking forward to meeting some of you - take care those travelling down or across this lovely day
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Hot off the press, some shots from today's Ultimate Snowdrop Sale at Myddelton House!
Great sale and really good to meet group friends and make contact.
Photo 1 Neil Parker at Glen Chantry stall, note the concentration!
Photo 2 Emma Thick taking a break from her 12,000 calorie consumption to buy a few dazzlers from Woodchippings!
Photo 3 Matt Bishop and Paul Barney...thanks for the lovely drops Paul!
Photo 4 Dean Croucher and Val Bourne on Woodchippings, doesn't seem that the 'bad back' slowed him down too much!
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Continued
Photo 5 The general melee ;D
Photo 6 Snowdropcollector, Brian Ellis and Valerie Bexley!
Photo 7 Dean, Chas Whight comparing notes ;D
Photo 8 Brian Ellis and Chas!
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I posted a comment over half an hour ago and it's gone - how strange.
What I was saying was that the weather looked reasonable because folks didn't look as wrapped up as last time - quite a few without hats - though young Mr Bishop looks frozen!
Hope the shopping went well, Folks!
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Spotted on FB from Dean Croucher - this evidence of Channel-hopping!
[attachimg=1]
"Our continental brothers — with Gert Geensen, Ruben Billiet, Olivier Vico, Wim Boens, Koen van Poucke, Snowdropcollector and Snow Clock."
I shared this across at the VRV forum too!
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I feel such a chump. At Myddleton House I tried to pose a picture of Emma Thick holding the snowdrop 'Emma Thick'. I got Emma in the picture and I got the pot and the label in the picture but what I did not discover until I got home was that the actual flower was out of the frame. There was another photograph taken by someone else so I'll see if I can get a copy of that to post here.
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I feel such a chump. At Myddleton House I tried to pose a picture of Emma Thick holding the snowdrop 'Emma Thick'. I got Emma in the picture and I got the pot and the label in the picture but what I did not discover until I got home was that the actual flower was out of the frame. There was another photograph taken by someone else so I'll see if I can get a copy of that to post here.
Being in the presence of an immortal and her 'drop is clearly an over-exciting experience, Alan ! At least you tried!
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A few early ones hot off the Norfolk presses from Myddleton.
1. The end of the queue.
2. Brian Ellis (left) and a few others.
3. Was it something I said? Blonde Ingrid second left and Arthur Nichols (dark shoulders light coat).
4. Emma Thick before the starting gun fired.
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Great sale and really good to meet group friends and make contact.
"Our continental brothers — with Gert Geensen, Ruben Billiet, Olivier Vico, Wim Boens, Koen van Poucke, Richard Meijndert and Snow Clock."
A clump of galanthophiles? Good to see so many happy faces.
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More from the Norfolk eye.
1. Some of the sellers tables looking pristine and ready to go.
2. Margaret MacLennan and Ann Broadhurst.
3. The runners ready in the starting stall.
4. And they are off. The man centre front must be expecting to buy a lot!
5. The second wave
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Another five from Myddleton.
1. The front runners arrive at target.
2. Joe Sharman.
3. Glen Chantry (at the back) and Ivy Cottage get busier. Several SR members to spot here.
4. The Thorps to the left and Woodchippings (Richard Bashford and Valerie Bexley) to the right.
5. Someone keeping their hands out of harms way.
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Great pictures as usual David also Ingrid's as well,I think as well as a sale ,it is becoming a great social event to start the season off
Great to meet knew faces also ................and to meet our European friends once again
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Great pictures as usual David,I think as well as a sale ,it is becoming a great social event to start the season off
Great to meet knew faces also ................and to meet our European friends once again
Thanks Chas. Good to see you today. Trying to plough through over 90 photos so more to come!
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It was lovely to see everyone again although there are
two three people I had hoped to speak to and didn't mea culpa.
Just think all those wonderful snowdrops on those stalls going to new homes and what lovely gardens they must all be!
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A few more from today.
1. Emma seems to be enjoying herself. But look at that bunch of twenties. How many will that buy?
2. Forumists and lurkers in this one and the hands must have wandered from behind the back!
3. Heads down around Woodchippings table. Richard Bashford far left.
4. Anke Way and snowdrop.
5. Chas (sorry about rear view Chas) and Joe Sharman.
More to come but probably tomorrow!
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A few more from today.
1. Emma seems to be enjoying herself. But look at that bunch of twenties. How many will that buy?
So many variables here, today you could have had part (not much) of 'Golden Fleece' at £1000, or 'Joe Sharman', perhaps a whole 'Anglesey Aurora' or better still a 'Pearldrops' alternatively one or two new drops or several that have been available for some time
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It was lovely to see everyone again although there are two three people I had hoped to speak to and didn't mea culpa.
Just think all those wonderful snowdrops on those stalls going to new homes and what lovely gardens they must all be!
Brian I couldn't find you or Chas - you were on my target list to say hiya to - but I did manage to meet Allan, Emma and her lovely Mum, Ingrid and the famous AT also another mad Dropper from Yorkshire hehehe just across the Pennines from us - great day - really nice new Head Gardner and also spoke with a couple of our foreign collectors - like someone else said - it seems to be a great social event to kick off the new year
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it seems to be a great social event to kick off the new year
I'm sure that is the case - it's the same reason the SRGC early Bulb Day is so popular - it's such a wonderful get together - with the added bonus of not having to queue outside!
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Thanks for sharing with us, the belgium team was in force!!
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I'm the one keeping their hands out of harms way (reply #56). That's what I get for greeting David before the sale and telling him: "Be sure to get my good side"!
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Was a lovely day !
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I'm the one keeping their hands out of harms way (reply #56). That's what I get for greeting David before the sale and telling him: "Be sure to get my good side"!
Take care, tomorrow is another day!
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Loving all the photos, and would love to hear what people brought?? Do tell?? :) ;)
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I spent more than I was expecting to. Amongst others I bought two early snowdrops from Glen Chantry's 'Early' section. I bought 'Early to Rize' because it was cheaper than the one I bought last year from North Green Snowdrops and there were three noses and the one I bought last year isn't doing anything this year. I also bought one called 'Nutts Early' which will probably turn out to be just another Hiemalis Group elwesii but it wasn't too expensive by snowdrop standards and again a good pot-full.
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Loving all the photos, and would love to hear what people brought?? Do tell??
Well one of the ones that came back to Norfolk was 'Margery Fish'. Yesterday I saw it on Wol and Sue's stand I hadn't made up my mind whether I wanted to get one or not and bought 'Walter Fish' instead six years ago as I thought it was a better snowdrop - it's only taken eight years to come round to making my mind up (and I'm not even a Libran ;)):
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=1260.msg33652#msg33652 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=1260.msg33652#msg33652)
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The garden at Myddleton House is filled with interesting snowdrops. Here's one aspiring to be a daffodil with a sideways-facing flower. Most of these descend as the flower matures.
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Well Maxine I only bought 3....One called Lucy from Richard Bashfield and Valerie,Homersfield to replace the lost clump,one of Michael Broadhursts,and Norfolk Blonde from Woland Sue,and some Eranthis from Jo,saving myself for next week end ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Hope Jan is better Chas, but as she is coming with you next weekend was it wise to be saving yourself ;)
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Thanks Brian,yes she is a little better today,thank you ,and both looking forward to next week end..............................................................more drops??
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Sunday and busy processing a few photos more from yesterday.
1. David MacLennan
2. Mike Broadhurst
3. Arthur Nichols
4. Sue Staines (Glenchantry)
5. Wol Staines and customers
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Another five.
1. General view
2. General view (John and Janet Lecore, far right)
3. Richard Bashford (Woodchippings)
4. Nice hat for my annual picture of Val Bourne. (she will hate it.....the picture that is!)
5. Matt Bishop (far right) talking to forumist Paul Barney.
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For more from Myddleton.
1. Anita and Andy Thorp's table.
2. Sue Staines having a sort out.
3. Nearly all gone on the Glenchantry table.
4. Janet Lecore and John (back to camera) talking to a very tall Mick Martin.
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The final four sale pictures.
1. The Monksilver tables and Joe Sharman
2. Near the end of the sale
3. Chas and Brian Ellis at Monksilver.
4. And finally the hands gave in to temptation and treated themselves.
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Before the sale began I went for a walk to keep warm and took a few pictures at the front of the house as the early light was rather nice.
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Hello David,
had a lot of pleasure at home with you exellent picture gallerie.
There was a lot of fun at this day on this place at Myddleton.
Thank you so much ...
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Loving all the photos, and would love to hear what people brought?? Do tell?? :) ;)
Fresh from the studio upstairs! Two lovely 'drops, the first 'Faint Heart' from Paul Barney and the second was on my list of those to eventually source and came, a complete surprise, as a very generous gift yesterday. Named for our good friend on the forum the late David Quinton. It is still an immature bulb and it is a much larger poculiform when mature - it was only when it's portrait was being taken that we realised what a heavy honey scent it has. A gem in the collection.
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Lovely drops, Brian - and what a bosker that is to commemorate David Quinton. Stunning.
(Kind thanks to the Photographic Consultant, working Sunday overtime!)
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I should have said that Joe raised it by crossing G.plicatus 'E A Bowles' with G.nivalis 'Poculiformis' so you can imagine how superb this will be as a mature clump, it is indeed stunning and so nice to have a decent 'drop named for him.
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Hello David,
had a lot of pleasure at home with you exellent picture gallerie.
There was a lot of fun at this day on this place at Myddleton.
Thank you so much ...
Hello Hagen, Pleased you enjoyed the pictures of what was a very pleasant day particularly for photographers!
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Thanks for your pictures, David. The shots of the house and garden are rather fine. You've provided great entertainment for those of us who could not be there this year. I will be making every effort to get along myself in 2017.
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Thanks for your pictures, David. The shots of the house and garden are rather fine. You've provided great entertainment for those of us who could not be there this year. I will be making every effort to get along myself in 2017.
Pleased you have been enjoying them Matt. Gives me something to do while the galanthophools are rushing around all over the place!
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I am re-posting this picture as Janet LeCore (Judy's Snowdrops) has very kindly supplied some information that you may find interesting.
The tall gentleman is Mick Martin, from Bodmin moor, a friend of Janet and John's. He is 6ft 10ins tall. John LeCore is 6ft and Janet is 5ft. Apparently Mick's wife Lesley is shorter than Janet!
Thanks Janet for all this and identifying Mick.
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If I remember correctly, Mick Martin is a friend of young Mr Bishop and often helps him out at such sales.....
Mr Martin towers above everybody, I think - he's even taller than Big John Amand!
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Just to prove no-one is safe here is David MacLennan's picture of the photographer David King with Margaret MacLennan and myself ;D
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Lovely portrait of the usually unseen "Eye " ( - as opposed to his cousin, the unseeing Eye!!) :)
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Yes, Maggi it is always good to see the man behind (the camera) also .... and in best society.
Thanks to David and Brian ...
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Was a great day in Myddleton, thank you all for this lovely day ! Seems that I have missed you again Brian !!
I was lucky and was able to bring some lovely snowdrops home with me.
Dainty Maid - Glenchantry
Elw Jesse Jane - Glenchantry
Kathleen Beddington - Glenchantry
Pl Ben Warwick, for it leaves... - Glenchantry
Miss Willmott - Glenchantry
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Courtesy of David MacLennan, here's his good version of Emma Thick holding Galanthus 'Emma Thick'
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My first Myddleton and (if I'm still in gainful employment) unlikely to be my last! Great day and really good to meet lots of like-minded people.
Thanks to Arthur Nicholls, who gave me a lift - turns out he is from the next door village - and kindly lent me some cash (as, luckily for my bank balance, I had forgotten my cheque book...). The ones I took home that are in flower now are below:
1 Glenorma - this was top of my list and I was lucky enough to bag a nice one with a good daughter and two scapes from the main bulb - outer of larger flower measured at 45mm
2 Miss Willmott - 4 scapes from the one bulb; no visible daughter but must be a good mature bulb to chuck out four flowers!
3 Mr Blobby - with an extra outer and an extra aberrant inner
4 Two Eyes - outers just shy of 40mm with very good green at tips (which was what tempted me - will have to see how much green next year)
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It was also great to see the gardens for the first time - I love plicatus and its inherent variability - I could spend many hours looking for interesting drops amongst the many there! One such is in the fourth photo below - nice large rounded shape but too far out of reach to examine closely alas
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couple more from Myddleton garden including a good plicatus with large, rounded outers, a sad face clump and yellow tommies - never seen this colour before and to say I'd quite like them in my garden would be a tad of an understatement!
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couple more from Myddleton garden including a good plicatus with large, rounded outers, a sad face clump and yellow tommies - never seen this colour before and to say I'd quite like them in my garden would be a tad of an understatement!
That wonderfull yellow-backed tommie caught our eye too...I told it to the lady responsible for the Crocus-frames (where a big pan of Crocus 'Midas Touch' was THE eye-catcher), she'll have a look!
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Great to hear you enjoyed yourself, Josh - hope you negotiated a good interest rate with Arthur! ;D
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Great photos here! Disappointed I still missed out on meeting and saying hello to some other forumists. Name badges were a good idea. If any of you see me at any other events and I don't recognise you please say hello!
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If any of you see me at any other events and I don't recognise you please say hello!
Ditto. I'm not very good at recognising people until I have met them several times. I did not spot Dean at all and only spotted Ingrid because somebody said: "There goes Ingrid". All I saw was a fancy coat disappearing off into the distance.
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I have some face blindness problems too Alan.
Combine this with a memory that seems to be getting ever more forgetful & I can see it could make me seem at times a little reserved or even aloof, it's not intentional. ::)
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Not knowing about Myddleton House I didn't realise that it had anything particular to do with anyone special. Thank you so much for the Blue Plaque picture it has increased my little store of knowledge. We have grown several plants with Bowles name attached.
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Photos from Myddelton
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Just for Maggie...
If you want to know how I look, I'm buying in post 77 pointing my finger
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Just for Maggie...
If you want to know how I look, I'm buying in post 77 pointing my finger
Yay! 8) Hello Loes!! :-*
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What's the date for next year for Myddelton and Shaftsbury ;D Any rumours for other events?