Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Cultivation => Cultivation Problems => Topic started by: Tristan_He on January 12, 2016, 02:21:04 PM
-
Should we grow more alpines in vertical or steeply sloping situations? In fact, should this be the default position?
[attach=1]
My picture shows a plant of Androsace muscoidea 'Breviscapa', planted this spring, from Pottertons Nursery. It's hairy and Himalayan, the sort of thing I'd expect to struggle in our wet Welsh climate, but because I'm incurably optimistic / deluded (delete as appropriate) I decided to give it a go. I planted it this spring (2015) nestled between some tufa blocks facing northwest. It has had no protection from the elements.
This November and December have been record-breaking in rainfall terms. The nearby ECN weather station on the flanks of Snowdon recorded 686mm in November and 1131mm in December http://www.ecn.ac.uk/news/snowdon-december-2015-rainfall-record (http://www.ecn.ac.uk/news/snowdon-december-2015-rainfall-record). There has hardly been a single day without rain. We're not quite as wet as this, but even so I'd be surprised if we have had less than 1.5m in 2 months. The weather has also been warm and very windy. Yet the Androsace looks pretty much ok.
Vertical locations don't just look more natural for many alpines. They also provide better drainage even in heavier soils, like peat, and protection from the rain (the more so if a slight overhang can be arranged). Crucially, they eliminate the risk of water sitting around the crown of the plant.
Many alpines are difficult to grow because they are prone to winter wet and / or rotting off. These are often advised as needing winter protection and good drainage. But I wonder - are we making life difficult by trying to grow them on the flat? Should we try harder to give them the slopes they need, and natural protection from the elements? And are we designing our rockeries and troughs adequately to do this? Even some rockeries at major botanic gardens can be a bit light on the vertical element.
More vertical rock gardens have other advantages in that they create a wider range of hydrological conditions. The top is going to be pretty dry, suiting things like Sempervivums, Draba or Dianthus for example. At the bottom there will be a steady seep of water (or at least moister conditions) that will suit things that like flushes and other wet places - Primulas and gentians.
Obviously there are certain plants that are routinely grown vertically - Ramondas, Lewisias and almost anything in a tufa wall, not to mention the humble Aubretia. But it's not something I have seen emphasised very much in growing advice for alpines generally. What about Meconopsis for example - most wild photos of these seem (especially tricky ones like horridula, delavayi and bella) to be on steeply sloping ground, or even on vertical locations? Likewise many Primulas (including difficult ones like petiolarids) and Lilium.
Any views?
-
Certainly embrace the slope if you can Tristan! Two of the best rock gardens I have ever seen, Alan Furness' and Peter Erskine's, are both built on slopes with a field above and with a lot of stone and rock. Not so many gardens have this situation though (or gardeners the energy, skill and determination to capitalise on it), or have natural rock faces (such as Zdenek Zvolanek's masterpiece in the Czech Republic), so the last of these five pictures taken at Robin and Sue White's garden at Blackthorn shows a completely flat planting made by simply laying six inches of pea gravel over the normal garden soil. The real trick seems to be making the best use of the conditions you are faced with and adapting the way you grow alpines to these. Our garden is flat so raised beds, troughs, a sand bed (and if I could ever discover some, tufa) are the ways we try to grow them.
-
I love the rocky outcrop in the picture from The Art of Gardening Tim. These are reasonably frequent on Anglesey and known locally as boncs.
I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that non-horizontal gardens are often considered a disadvantage, and even in some authoritative books (e.g. Jim Jermyn's Alpine Plants of Europe), many of the rockery designs seem relatively flat.
Adding height also means you can fit more plants into a given space, which for a plantaholic like me is reason enough!
-
Tim,
Very intersting to see the photo of Steadstone, near Dalbeattie, Dumfries & Galloway (the photo from The Art of Gardening). The photo must have been taken a long time ago. Our local group went to visit a couple of years ago in autumn. The trees have matured and the autumn colours are magnificent. In late spring the garden is a blaze of colour too - rhododendrons, bluebells and a huge number of primulas. The garden was built in a former quarry, the house perching on top of a cliff. It is occasionally open to the public and is well worth a visit.
-
I must admit, looking at that picture of the rock outcrop in Graham Stuart Thomas' book, I would have not planted those surrounding trees and shrubs but made a large alpine scree at its base - and abseiled down the rock face to plant into it as Dr. Dilys Davies did in her garden in the Lake District! It certainly looks a garden worth a visit - and we have plans of coming to Scotland in the summer.
Yes, I agree Tristan - I would be more than happy with a sloping garden; it would add an element of drama even without a fascination with alpine plant, and terracing can be very effective too. This the idea behind 'sand berms' that some N. American gardeners make which provide different aspects and moisture retention even in relatively small areas and allow a much wider range of plants to be grown.
-
" Steadstone, near Dalbeattie, Dumfries & Galloway (the photo from The Art of Gardening) "
- could it be clarified which book this is? There are several under this title and I cannot seem to find one by Graham Stuart Thomas????
-
That's because I made a mistake in the title Maggi! It is 'The Art of Planting' - perhaps a different thing altogether :-\ Would make a good title for a television programme don't you think? ;)
-
Ah! There's often a clue!
The Art of Planting: Or the Planter's Handbook Hardcover – 1 May 1984
Hardcover: 288 pages
Publisher: J.M.Dent & Sons Ltd (1 May 1984)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0460046403
ISBN-13: 978-0460046404
[attachimg=1]
-
I will continue this thread because my question concerns also a slope. :)
By our root cellar I have a place to plant something new, this spot is very different to any other places I have in the garden, and I would very much like to hear what plants should I try in this place.
The challenge is that it is a place where snow melts first when the ground is still frozen. It gets full sunlight only until mid May when the trees grow leaves and after that it is semishade, so it is not good for rock garden plants which require full sun. Another thing is that the slope is made from rocks, and there are two big birch trees (the ones in the back in the picture, the smaller one in the front is going to be felled), so the ground is very dry in the summer (with rocks and birch roots).
I though that I would like to make a spring bed in it. I could try some snowdrops, but what other bulbs would survive the frozen ground and freezing night temperatures without snow cover, and then very dry summer? What other plants would you suggest I could try?
The right side of the cellar is similar slope with more space to plant something.
-
Leena - a very nice sloped corner!
In exactly the same conditions - very sloped, rocky and exposed (sometimes no snow cover), deciduous shade, it grows here Hepatica americana. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the last cold snap didn't kill their flower buds. Most often is associated with Anemone quinquefolia. You will be most welcome for seeds if you want.
-
Gabriela, thank you for the suggestions!
I don't have either plant you suggested and would like to try them :). I have H.nobilis which I can try, and here it can grow also in quite dry places. Maybe also Hepatica transsilvanica could take dry shade.
-
Yes Leena, H.transsylvanica in the wild also grows on rocky slopes and it goes very well through dry periods. I now remember that Lathyrus vernus shows up with it sometimes, it's a tough one too.
-
Leena, how about trying Primula sibthorpii? Here it grows and flowers well in limited sun and when the garden gets hot and dry it disappears. It has the ability to go dormant during the summer and then will reappear in the spring none the worse for wear. I have had it many years in a garden disliked by most primroses.
-
There's also a white and pink form of the Lathyrus vernus that's very pretty.
-
Leena - a very nice sloped corner!
In exactly the same conditions - very sloped, rocky and exposed (sometimes no snow cover), deciduous shade, it grows here Hepatica americana. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the last cold snap didn't kill their flower buds. Most often is associated with Anemone quinquefolia. You will be most welcome for seeds if you want.
Recommended! Gabriela's Hepatica seeds have excellent germination! They sprout like cress ;)
-
There's also a white and pink form of the Lathyrus vernus that's very pretty.
This one?
[attachimg=1]
Leena, I can try to save some seeds if you are interested. Last year the slugs devoured almost all the Lathyrus vernus plants though >:( :(
-
Leena, how about trying Primula sibthorpii? Here it grows and flowers well in limited sun and when the garden gets hot and dry it disappears. It has the ability to go dormant during the summer and then will reappear in the spring none the worse for wear. I have had it many years in a garden disliked by most primroses.
Thank you for this idea! I was just thinking that perhaps some Primula could also grow in dry place. I didn't know that P.sibthorpii can go dormant, that is good. I have some ordinary P.vulgaris, but I will try to get P.sibthorbii in next years seed exchange.
My projects for new beds are always quite slow, so growing plants from seeds is good for me. :)
Lathyrus vernus may grow too big for what I had in mind there, but I have other places where I could try it. ;)
What do you think, would crocuses grow there? I could divide C.tommasianus this year and try some there (and they would be quite cheap to buy also)
-
Think of adding plants that bloom in the spring and then go dormant. Adonis amurensis comes to mind, also some corydalis. You can even use Ranunculus ficaria 'Brazen Hussy'. Don't gasp over this suggestion. In my dry garden it is very well-behaved, flowers and then goes dormant. There are other named color forms to try. There are epimediums that would do well in this situation. Dicentra cucullaria would be a good addition - it is such a graceful and charming plant.
-
Think of adding plants that bloom in the spring and then go dormant. Adonis amurensis comes to mind, also some corydalis. You can even use Ranunculus ficaria 'Brazen Hussy'. Don't gasp over this suggestion. In my dry garden it is very well-behaved, flowers and then goes dormant. There are other named color forms to try. There are epimediums that would do well in this situation. Dicentra cucullaria would be a good addition - it is such a graceful and charming plant.
Thank you for these ideas! I have admired your rockgarden. :)
Yes, plants which go dormant in the summer are a good idea. I can move some corydalis there, and I have also Dicentra cuccularia which I can divide. I don't have 'Brazen Hussy', but I have some double R.ficaria, which doesn't spread hardly at all.
Can you suggest which epimediums I could try? I have some like 'Frohnleiten' which I can divide. 'Amber Queen' may like more moisture, I think.
-
Leena, you could also use ferns in the more shaded spots. Some are rather drought tolerant, like Polypodium vulgare, Asplenium trichomanes, Asplenium septentrionale, Woodsia ilvensis.
-
Ferns are a great idea, I'd add Asplenium platyneuron, the dark stems give such a nice contrast. Sanguinaria canadensis might also like this area. Epimedium grandiflorum is great because it makes seedlings. E. 'Fronleiten' is excellent. The flowers really shine in dark areas. The double flowered R. ficaria is a beauty, but I don't think you have to worry about R. ficaria being too aggressive in a dry spot.
-
Leena, what about Iris cristata? It accepts drought here, and holds the soil well on a slope. And how could I forget Eranthis hyemalis, which has spread here through dry shade and is never watered. Goes well with Crocus tomasianus (spelling?)
-
Leena, if it's not too cold for you I'd be looking at Cyclamen. Also what about some of the woodland Corydalis? Possibly also Dicentra formosa varieties, if these aren't too big?
Crocus tommasinianus is lovely. I'm sure there are others that would grow there too - what about C. 'Yalta' or 'Shock Wave'? Narcissus cyclamineus too perhaps if it is hardy for you?
Gentiana asclepiadea might do ok there too, it doesn't seem too fussy. Possibly some Campanulas and Digitalis might give some later colour in dry shade.
-
Thank you again for the ideas!
Ferns, YES! We have Polypodium vulgare growing wild in our property in the woods, I can try it easily. The other ferns Trond suggested are not so easy to find (though some should be native here, so they are hardy), but there is an Estonian fern grower who comes to sell his plants to Finland every spring, and I will have to ask if he has some of the ones suggested. I've grown a lot of plants from seeds, but haven't yet tried ferns from spores. :) Asplenium platyneuron looks lovely, too.
Epimediums go with ferns, and so does Dicentra, and in a dry place it may not grow so big. Sanguinaria canadensis is one of my favourite plants, I grow it in moist woodland bed, but I could try it also in drier place.
Iris cristata is new to me, though I have many other irises. It is another plant which could be started from seeds, and it should be hardy here (now that I googled it).
Eranthis and woodland Corydalis, yes, but I'm not sure if N.cyclamineus is hardy enough to that place. I have some ('Tete a Tete), but they grow in quite sheltered spot and I cover them with dry oak leaves for the winter to prevent the soil freezing too deep. Of course they are so cheap to buy that I could try anyway.
Last summer I planted my first Crocus heuffelianus in dryish woodland bed, I hope they will start to grow and multiply there, but they haven't come up yet. With crocuses there is always fear of voles eating them and wild hares eating the flowers, but they bring so much colour in the garden early in the spring that I want to grow them anyway.
Gentiana asclepiadea grows quite big, are there any other smaller Gentiana which can be grown in dry semi-shade?
-
Leena - Iris cristata is indeed hardy and also has a white form. As for Gentiana, from my own experience I would try G. cachemirica. It did very well for a few years in a quite shaded spot, beneath a large Polygonatum, plus many other crowded plants (I was afraid to move it actually). It is a beautiful trailing gentiana, with slender stems. With more sun towards late fall, the foliage takes lovely reddish tones, just like G. scabra.
Also G. scabra can be tried, it does well in part shade; I don't know how much drought will stand.
-
Gabriela, thank you. I will make a note to myself about Gentianas you mentioned!
It is good to have a list of plants ready when in the autumn new seed lists appear, otherwise I don't remember them. :)
-
Here are some photos of my (still under development) vertical crevice garden. I'll mostly be planting it up with cuttings and small plants raised from seed, including from the SRGC seed exchange. The slate is local in these parts so comes free!
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
-
Some of the plants that have gone in, including those bought from the Kendal show the other week:
[attach=1]
Primula 'Tantallon'. I take no credit for the flowers!
[attach=2]
Tiny Primula cawdoriana. Very interested to see how this does.
[attach=3]
Primula 'Redpoll'
[attach=4]
Primula hoffmanniana
[attach=5]
Saxifraga oppositifolia.
-
Tristan, you have started a very good topic here. As gardeners we like to grow as many plants that take our fancy but how often do we stop and consider the natural habitat of those plants. We buy the plants because we like them and put them in our gardens, often wherever we can find a space. Perhaps more time should be spent on what kind of habitat the plant needs, even before buying. It is very disappointing to see the plants struggle to survive and eventually give up the fight. The plants requirements should be the main concern. What type of soil does it need, acid, alkali or neutral. Is it an upland plant, a woodland plant, does it need permanent moisture, seasonal drying, seasonal wetting? I, like many gardeners, like to grow as many plants as possible, in a very small garden. How often have I been left with so many plant labels in the ground resembling a graveyard of ex plants. I have tried to create a range of habitats but in a small space this is not always possible. The front "lawn" has become a mini-meadow, with no chemicals used and only cut when the gas man can,t find the meter. The pleasure it gives is far better than the comments from neighbours about how untidy it is. I do not want a lawn that looks like a bowling green, to me that might as well be plastic grass. A dry stone wall is the nearest I have managed to a rock outcrop but if someone with muscles like popeye did the work I could supply the rocks.
-
I agree with you Ian! As our garden has matured (and maybe I have too) I have come to view plants more and more ecologically, which is to say sometimes untidyly in the garden. Unfortunately we don't have slopes or rocks in the garden but it is still possible to find niches for all sorts of species and the greatest test of all is when choice plants begin to self-seed and naturalise. The garden becomes more and more subtle and closer to a natural planting that has a succession through the seasons. This takes time and how good it would be if that view came across in the gardening media more.
As an example - but nothing to do with a slope (sorry) I am excited to see a lot more bulbs self-sowing under trees in our lawn. The prospect of this as it develops over the next few years is enticing.
-
It looks like a perfect spot for a crevice garden Tristan. I also like to start with very young seedlings, thanks to the teaching of Harvey Wrightman for planting in tufa, but surely they should establish better in any crevice garden.
Maggi did mention Ramonda on Cwm Idwal thread; I will add that Haberlea may also be one for your climate. It's drought resistant but here curls up its leaves in the summer no matter how much water it gets.
-
As gardeners we like to grow as many plants that take our fancy but how often do we stop and consider the natural habitat of those plants. Perhaps more time should be spent on what kind of habitat the plant needs, even before buying. It is very disappointing to see the plants struggle to survive and eventually give up the fight. The plants requirements should be the main concern. What type of soil does it need, acid, alkali or neutral. Is it an upland plant, a woodland plant, does it need permanent moisture, seasonal drying, seasonal wetting? I, like many gardeners, like to grow as many plants as possible, in a very small garden. How often have I been left with so many plant labels in the ground resembling a graveyard of ex plants. I have tried to create a range of habitats but in a small space this is not always possible. A dry stone wall is the nearest I have managed to a rock outcrop but if someone with muscles like popeye did the work I could supply the rocks.
Agree Ian. However I think we are quite good at some of these variables - pH for example is nearly always mentioned when discussing cultivation requirements, as is whether the plant likes sun or shade (though in my view there are quite a few different sorts of shade) and moisture requirements. However, other things are mentioned less often and the potential benefits of steeply sloping environments are one of these. Similarly I've seen quite a few examples of crevice gardens constructed 'on the flat' and whilst of course it's possible to grow alpines in these situations, many of the really good alpine locations are on steeply sloping or vertical cliffs. Obviously we can't all recreate these in our garden, but we can certainly exploit naturally sloping / 'difficult' terrain better rather than planting it up with ground cover.
I love wildflower meadows too Ian and am trying to manage part of the garden in this way. One of my favourite tools is my Austrian scythe!
-
As an example - but nothing to do with a slope (sorry) I am excited to see a lot more bulbs self-sowing under trees in our lawn. The prospect of this as it develops over the next few years is enticing.
Yes Tim, bulbs are wonderful aren't they. I have hundreds of Chionodoxa sardensis seeding themselves under some goat willows which will look very fine in a few weeks.
-
Maggi did mention Ramonda on Cwm Idwal thread; I will add that Haberlea may also be one for your climate. It's drought resistant but here curls up its leaves in the summer no matter how much water it gets.
I have one of the two Gabriela, but can't remember which! Planted last year and doing well in a shady corner but has not flowered yet - and no curling up either. One drawback of crevice gardening is that you have to shove the label into the crevice with the plant and then it's not so easy to read without disturbing the plant. I think it was Ramonda myconi though. I plan to try Haberlea at some stage and if I can get any seed or plants, Jankaea...
-
Tristan, Jankaea seed was available from Jelitto seeds. I bought some last year but with bank charges etc. it is not cheap. Worth a go once though. Don,t sneeze when opening the packet or you will not find the seed. I scattered mine in two small pots of compost and some on the tufa in the wall. Here.s hoping.
-
Haberlea rhodopensis in the wall,east facing. The roots will have made their way into the soil at the back of the wall. There used to be a good display at Cluny House, near Aberfeldy. The leaves of Haberlea are different to those of Ramonda. img. 1010172.
-
Slope gardening, mother natures way. Near Ben Lawers img. 262. another version img. 263. Don,t forget the water feature img.264. More native alpine pics. to follow on the IRG.
-
Slope gardening, mother natures way...
Just how I like it! :)
-
Jelitto have Jankaea seed on their 2016/17 list.
-
Gabriela, I wish my garden was measured in square miles instead of square yards. We can only dream.
-
Jelitto have Jankaea seed on their 2016/17 list.
Thanks Ian, I've tried Jelitto in the past with mixed results. I've just seen that Eschmann offer plants and am contemplating whether to attempt these.. but they are 18 quid each!
-
I grew Jancaea from seed (ex. Josef Halda) a long time ago using the same method as with fern spores and Ramonda - i.e: sterilised humus-rich, sandy compost in a propagating box with warmth in spring. Germination was really good and the trick then, as with ferns, is carefully pricking out and weaning on the tiny seedlings! I think viability of the seed is good (the same is true of other gesneriads and many fern spores) so the real skill comes later! Harry Jans obviously has great success with them self-seeding on tufa - as do Gothenberg(?) so sources of cultivated seed are available of this amazing plant. Looks like we should grow it again!