Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: Tim Harberd on December 07, 2015, 04:14:51 PM
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'Big', 'Large', 'Huge', 'Enormous' and 'Giant' are words which are fairly liberally scattered across Snowdrop catalogues…. Probably because using those words sells plants! But what do they actually mean?
My 'Glenorma' has just broken cover, so mollusc patrols have been doubled! And I thought it would be a good time to start the BLHEG list for the 2016 season, just in case anyone has an early season whopper.
Last year's list stretched to 25 cultivars, so it seems reasonable to 'raise the bar' and exclude any flower whose outer petals are less than 35mm long. (This means 'Paradise Giant' drops off the list!)
In order to be fair/consistent I think its a good idea to measure the outer petal length (P) a week after the flower first opens. (H is the height from soil level to the top of the flower.)
Here is where we got to last year:
.....2015..... ....2016....
Mrs Macnamara H 27cm P 35mm H 38cm P 35mm
Naughton H? P 35mm
Woodtown H? P 36mm
Kildare H? P 37mm
Bertram Anderson H20cm P 38mm H 22cm P 36mm
Walker Canada H? P38 mm
PHD 33643 H 22cm P 39mm H 24cm P 38mm
Gerard Parker H? P 39mm?
Grüne Weihnacht H 30cm P 39mm
Two Eyes H 37cm? P 39mm
Long Wasp H? P39mm
Gemini ex PC H? P 36mm H 30cm P 40mm
Peardrop H18cm? P 40mm
Kencot Kali H? P 40mm
Excelsis H? P 40mm
Penelope Ann H? P 40mm
Rev Hailstone H 34cm P 40mm
John Tomlinson H? P 40mm
Louise Ann Bromley H? P 40mm
Fieldgate Superb H? P 41mm?
GC2 H? P41mm
Hercule H? P41mm
Sibbertoft Manor H? P42mm
Chantry Green Twins H? P 42mm
Glenorma H19cm P 43mm H 30cm P 45mm
Fred's Giant H 25cm P 45mm
Gravity H? P 45mm
Friar Tuck H? P 45mm?
G.p.byz selectJN 'SL1'? H? P 45mm H? P 44mm
Margaret Owen H? P 46mm
Comet H? P 47mm
As last year… I’ll edit/update this list to incorporate any info. posted below.
Tim DH
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So it has to be based on flower size? I have a whopper of an elwesii (which I got from forumist Tim Ingram) that has a daffodil-sized bulb and very tall leaves but, as far as I recall, flowers of an ordinary size.
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Hi Alan,
I agree with you… there are other Galanthus statistics which would be interesting to collate. However, as you'll see, I included a height measurement last year, and most people were only interested in supplying the petal info!
There was some discussion last year about a snowdrop ('Hercule') so named because it looked like a leek. But I'd guess the dedicated galanthofoliaphiles are a very select group indeed!!
Tim DH
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The first flower on Glenorma half opened it today's sunshine.. I'll measure it next week. Meanwhile Mrs Macnamara fully opened. I suspect the clump has now got too crowded to produce champion sized flowers. They've not been open a week yet, but have 'only' got to 32mm so far. The slugs have also had quite a go at them! Grrrr.
Tim DH
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Yesterday I got this picture of a very big Gem, called GRÜNE WEIHNACHT (Green Christmas).
It should be a fine member of the BLHEG- group.
Flowering now, at the christmas time ...
To all: Merry Christmas and (hours later) a Happy New Year
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Another exceptional snowdrop Hagen :o Merry Christmas to all.
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Hi Hagen,
Thanks for posting Grüne Weihnacht … I've logged it as 39mm. Could I trouble you to check its height?
Leena was enquiring (on the Green Mile thread) what the biggest Green snowdrop might be. Chantry Green Twins is the only other obvious contender on the list so far.
Meanwhile I attach a pic of Mrs Macnamara, as she graced the Christmas Table. In our warm wet weather here, Three Ships have long since gone West.
Tim DH
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The slugs have also had quite a go at them! Grrrr.
Slug pellets work very well in this garden. I put them out the first day is rains after a dry period
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Hi Hagen,
Thanks for posting Grüne Weihnacht … I've logged it as 39mm. Could I trouble you to check its height
Tim DH
until 30cm, Tim
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Slug pellets work very well in this garden. I put them out the first day is rains after a dry period
Hi Mark,
Are you suggesting you've seen a dry period recently? I've been waiting months for one of those, so that I can finish lifting the spuds! Mind you, I think that crop will be safe where it is, because I have yet to see pond snails in the garden. Even the 'common or garden' slugs are getting fed up with the rain. I evicted 8 of them from the kitchen tonight. Given the heart breaking images which are arising from the valleys around me it seems trivial to post a pic of a washed out snowdrop bed... but here it is.
Tim DH
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We've had a few sunny warm days recently with temperatures around 12 and 14c
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Hi Mark,
Yes we've had the odd sunny day, but not dry. Yesterday was one of them, however there was standing water in the garden all day and it started to rain again after night fall. I reckon the temperature is a large part of the problem. A decent cold snap eliminates a proprtion of slugs, or at least it curtails their movement. Under the current conditions they are free to do what they like, and in huge numbers.
Hi Hagen,
Thanks for the additional info. I've updated the first post.
Meanwhile, I decided yesterday was the day to take Mrs Macnamara's vital statistics.. I was amazed that she has made it to 35mm. That clump, in a corner of the greenhouse, has about a hundred flowers. (Clumps in the open garden can only manage 33mm.) She is also tall, 38cm. Since one of my interests in snowdrops is as a cut flower, this cultivar has (in my opinion) everything: Large flowered, tall, vigorous and floriferous.
Tim DH
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I don't grow 'Mrs Macnamara' but I admire a well-built strong 'drop as much as I would a similar lady :)
every time I see the name I burst into song ... "my name is Macnamara, I'm the leader of the band ..... " etc - maybe it's just as well I don't grow it - my neighbours probably suffer enough without any extra singing in the garden!
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Bit of a newbie question to clarify height measurement - should this be taken from ground level to the top of the ovary held against the spathe, measured along the scape held straight?
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I don't grow 'Mrs Macnamara' but I admire a well-built strong 'drop as much as I would a similar lady :)
every time I see the name I burst into song ... "my name is Macnamara, I'm the leader of the band ..... " etc - maybe it's just as well I don't grow it - my neighbours probably suffer enough without any extra singing in the garden!
Just as well you don't grow it then Maggi, every time I look at mine I shall imagine your dulcet tones and perhaps your dancing round the clump :-*
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Is Glenorma the biggest plicatus so far? Here is a byzantinus selection from last year with 45mm outers - I didn't measure height alas but have note that leaves were 20cm x 2cm. Measured 03 March 2015; photo of whole plant on 10 March few days after potting up. Looks to be bulking up well this year and likely to be earlier in flower (as with many others of course!)
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Here's a shot of the inside of the byzantinus above showing its long, narrow outers - bit like Wasp on steroids!
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Hi Josh,
Thanks for your contributions. For now, I've logged the cultivar as G.p.byzantinus selectJN. Do let me know if there is a more useful label for it! I've logged your figures against last year.. and I await an update with interest!
Regarding the height measurement, I just plonk the bottom of the ruler on the soil, and read off how high the top of the ovary is. It's a fairly rough measure to the nearest centimetre!
I've just been out to measure the first flower of Glenorma. It looks rather sad under the leaden grey sky, so I attach a photo from three days ago.
The measurements (39mm, 20cm) are NOT a fair comparison, because with MrsM I had dozens of flowers to choose from. Does anyone want to post better Stats for Glenorma?
There are three more buds coming on mine, and one is a double header! Given that last year this bulb produced two leaves and one flower I reckon that's an impressive rate of increase. If it does the same again I might have dozens of flowers to choose from next year!!
Tim DH
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Thanks Tim, not got any better label yet - waiting to see how it does this year.
Good to see Glenorma and that it's vigorous with you - definitely on the list!
I got Wessex Titan from Paul Barney in December and it is already looking like it is going to be on the large size (45mm outers according to the Edulis list); looks like it will be a big plant too. Not sure if anyone grows it - the list said it was new this year? I'll measure and post mine at the appropriate time - it is coming on well in the mild weather
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Hi Josh,
Thanks for the tip-off about 'Wessex Titan', one I've not heard of. Using the SRGC search facility, I don't think its come up on here before. The picture on the Edulis website looks good… and the references to its scent are a bonus.
Looks like the double header on my Glenorma has been nibbled by a slug.. taking off the tip of both flowers. I go out EVERY night with a head torch & scissors. One session yielded over 200 kills. To be honest I'm currently more concerned about the daffodil damage. The forecast says we might get a frost on Friday.
Tim DH
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Bought Wessex Titan from Paul. It arrived yesterday. It's certainly a biggie and can't wait for it to flower.
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Shame about the Glenorma Tim - slugs can be a right pain.... I also do a head torch round (although I probably need to step up the frequency from now on) - the slugs (and snails) usually end up with the problem weeds in the bin the council takes for green waste; hopefully they'll be getting recycled as compost!
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Tim, update Glenorma: (P)45mm, (H)30cm today in our open garden.
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I would like the giant drops too.
But sorry, I only have a small greenhouse.
So I prefer Gn! ;)
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Leena was enquiring (on the Green Mile thread) what the biggest Green snowdrop might be. Chantry Green Twins is the only other obvious contender on the list so far.
Thanks Tim! :)
My next question is about 'Glenorma' and 'Glenchantress'. How are they different in size and otherwise? There has been close ups of flowers in the forum but I would like to know more about them and which one do you prefer if you bought only one?
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Hi freddyvl,
Thanks for the Glenorma figures…. Much better than mine! I (naturally) planted my bulb in what I judged to be a favoured spot… but maybe its a bit on the dry side…..
Hi Leena,
How shall I put this?….. As someone who is quite happy to leave the growing of the aberrant green outered forms to others (sorry Hagen!) My choice is easy!!
If this particular mutation appeals to you, then 'Big Boy' is a cultivar I have seen referred to as having flowers up to 48mm long. I don't know if that includes the ovary.
Tim DH
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I am growing 'Big Boy' this year for the first time but guess it will be next year before it gets to full size, although the bulb is quite large.
Here's a shot in the meantime of G. elwesii 'Wessex Titan' from a few days ago - doing well and looking like it will be a very large plant.
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After a long pause here, the next large flower is finally out:
'Bertram Anderson', a little smaller than last year (P 36mm H 22cm), but nice and chunky. Not a good doer with me… 2 flowers in its first year, 5 flowers in its third. However I would guess its the cheapest cultivar on this list!
Tim DH
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Thanks Tim! :)
My next question is about 'Glenorma' and 'Glenchantress'. How are they different in size and otherwise? There has been close ups of flowers in the forum but I would like to know more about them and which one do you prefer if you bought only one?
Leena, Glenorma is a plicatus with very long clawed, substantial, slightly puckered outers with a an upside down Y shape sinus mark with two small dots above nearer the base. Glenchantress has green marks near the apex of the outers, nearly full dark green inners and is an elwesii or a hybrid with characteristics closest to elwesii. They are therefore very different.
I have Glenorma but not Glenchantress (although I am hoping to get it in the summer). My Glenorma measured 45mm for the outers at the weekend when I picked it up at the Myddleton snowdrop sale; Glenchantress has sizeable flowers but is not on the scale of Glenorma.
I prefer plicatus to elwesii so would choose Glenorma if I was going to choose one but many would disagree I'm sure! Both are expensive still though.
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Tim, I picked up Glenorma at Myddleton and measured the outers of the larger flower at 45mm (it has subsequently gone over); the scape to top of ovary was in the order of 28.5 cm (less than figures already supplied this season).
I was also given Rev Hailstone a couple of weeks back or so and the largest flower had outers at 40mm (again shortly before going over); the scape is now about 38cm but think it was closer to 34cm when I measured the flower (although I didn't record it then; I also don't know if it had been in open ground or tunnel).
I also picked up Two Eyes, the outers of which were 39mm; the scape was very long (c37cm or so) but I know it had been in a tunnel so was likely drawn out a bit.
Glenorma below:
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Thank you Josh, that was just the information I was after. :)
Also I like plicatus more than elwesii.
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Fred's Giant measure like the Glenorma image is 45mm too. No picture as of yet.
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Hi Palustris,
Thanks for measuring the petals on Fred's Giant.. I've added it to the list.. Do you have a height for it?
Hi Josh,
Thanks for the figures for Two Eyes and Rev Hailstone.. Do you think we should change the 'time of measurement'?
This year I suggested 'one week after first opening', partly because I'm no fan of wasp like flowers! However later measurements are certainly bigger, so in the interests of objectivity (a 'level playing field') should we specify 'just before going over' figures? (!)
Apart from that… here is my last entry in the category for this year:
PHD 33643… 38mm 24cm… This cultivar has gone from 1 flower in its first year to 15 in its third year.
Tim DH
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Sorry Tim, not yet, am housebound for the foreseeable future. but I will go and measure if it survives the gales, when my foot is healed.
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Eric- with the weather around this must be the "best" time to be housebound- you 're missing very little, I expect! Take care and get well soon!
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Yes, all the best Eric. My only excuse is the weather.
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As requested Fred's Giant with tape measure. The flower has now increased to 50mm.Height about 250mm.
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Hope you didn't go out and measure that Eric?
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First time the wind has not been so strong that it flattened the plants. Yes, 'twas me, slippered foot carefully placed on the ground.
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As requested Fred's Giant with tape measure. The flower has now increased to 50mm.Height about 250mm.
is that 50mm with the ovary or just the outers?
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With the ovaries. Sorry should have made that clear. Bit difficult to measure now as the flowers are wide open.
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Hi Palustris,
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Hi Palustris,
Thanks for the height measurement.
Apart from that. Here is Bertram Anderson, a fortnight after I first posted it, and (IMHO) just about to go over. It has now stretched its petals to 44mm. In the process BA has out run PHD, which has only got to 42mm. Perhaps I should include a column for terminal petal length?
Tim DH
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A few more measurements (generally just outer length as I forgot to measure height - I will try to do this where they don't look to have gone over too much):
PHD33643 38mm
GC2 (Glen Chantry) 41mm
Hercule 41mm
Long Wasp 39mm
Gemini ex PC 40mm h 28.5 cm to top flower, 30 to spathe tip
Walker Canada 38mm
Gravity 45mm
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This is an un-named variety shown on Facebook - but it fills the brief, I reckon.....
[attachimg=1]
a true giant snowdrop ;D - shown by Blumenhof Fachsain
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Hi There,
This thread has gone a bit quiet!
Any late entries?
I'm surprised that some of 2015's biggest are not contesting for the title this year!
Tim DH
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Sibbertoft Manor flower measured today at 42mm.
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Hi Gary,
Thanks for that... I've updated the list (first post on this thread) and added Anne's amazing Comet (from the March 2016 thread).
I guess that about winds it up for this year.
I think its an interesting list... partly because of what's missing!
Only one cultivar.. Glenorma, is recorded as exceeding 40mm petal length in both 2015 & 2016.
Tim DH
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Hi Tim,
My plicatus byzantinus that topped 45mm on the outers last year hit 44mm this year (it's provisional number is SL1). I have two others that hit 43mm (including one posted today on the March 2016 thread with a very long pedicel, numbered SL24a), and a few others at 40mm or so. I'll try and get you details/ photos.
Josh
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Anyone recognise this as a named cultivar? It seems to be too good for it not to be,it has been there for many years, and its growing somewhere where I wouldn't have planted it. This year for the first time, it had two flowers and the bulb appears to have some new offsets as well.
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Havent figured out how to post multiple pictures
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Bailey, it looks to be a form of Galanthus elwesii (although a clearer shot of the leaves would help to make that identification more certain). Some forms of elwesii grow very large, with leaves that dwarf those of a typical daffodil. There are a few that are renowned for their size but if you have not planted one yourself the chances of you having a named cultivar are, I guess, similar to your chances of winning the lottery.
If you did not plant it yourself it probably originates from a near-neighbour (or a previous owner of your garden). And to rain on your parade, if you have had it for many years and it has not become a huge clump then either it does not like the spot where it grows or it isn't very vigorous.
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Thanks. Your interpretation of what I wrote is interesting.I am pretty sure it has Elwesii leaves,I cropped the photograph,but the base of the bulb wasn't clear anyway.The leaves are very broad and I think that they,and the flower were bigger last year. You can buy Elwesii bulbs or acquire them as potted snowdrops,and though some can be quite interesting to look at as regards form and markings,the range is quite broad,and so its unlikely,though not impossible,to get a good new variety this way. No,you are not raining on my parade,its probably a pretty generic type,and so unlikely to make my fortune even if it has qualities work preserving. I believe it to be a named cultivar,which is why I said I think its too good for it not to be, not adding a named cultivar, I do not have options for its name.I have searched for candidates so far unsuccessfully. Its not from a previous owner,and unlikely to have come from next door. The favoured possibility is that it was bought not in the green,but as an named cultivar bulb,and it subsequently fell out of its pot,and successfully buried itself and survived.It flowers very late.but this might be connected to that it is growing in less than ideal conditions,under the privet hedge,and though it has flowered intermittently,it has largely been neglected and ignored,till recently,when I started buying more snowdrops,mostly in the green,so since then,it has had more water and attention,and it has gone from one flower last year,to two this and with un associated leaves from potential offsets,so it may indeed be vigorous.The other less likely possibility is,that it is a seedling,which I think would be an even more remarkable event I also have what I believe to be Comet, purchased around the same time, probably from the same source,it too is in un ideal conditions,it remains as one bulb,the flowers are never spectacular and never with green tips,so was extremely surprised when I purchased two in the green Comet last year and found they had huge flowers and with green tips .
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As a general rule I believe there are many snowdrops that are not so distinctive that they can be unambiguously identified. Even if you are somebody like Matt Bishop who sees details the rest of us miss, many snowdrops can vary in their appearance from one year to the next. So if you have one that you cannot identify and you haven't kept a note of which snowdrops you bought in the past then I think it is frequently wrong to assign a name to a lost-label snowdrop. The situation is worse if the snowdrop turns up in an unexpected locale because you will never know if it is a nameless seedling (possibly resembling the parent) or an accidental planting by a squirrel or just by chance circumstances.
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I wouldn't dream of passing it off as something named without being absolutely sure it was.I hoped if it was recognisable as a cultivar it would solve the puzzle as to if it was a purchased bulb or a seedling.I may still have a record somewhere of what I bought and when.The only clues I have are that the two places it most likely came from are still operating.They did not appear to be selling in the green at the time.I recently found an old catalogue,dated 1997,it has a small section of snowdrops.It was most likely if I did purchase it, it would be around this time and possibly earlier.Not much to go on as prices vary but I remember buying Comet,and also Wendy's Gold around the same time, I probably saw an article in a gardening magazine,and it was probably around £20 at the time and anything else I ordered would have been less expensive .One fly in the whole supposition is that Wendy's Gold isn't in the mentioned catalogue. I eventually found last years picture, I thought it was strange that I didn't appear to have one.Its a better picture and it seems to suggest the marks are stable.People have varying tastes as to what makes a good snowdrop,I like it, it has huge flowers and worth saving.As to whether its worth naming and passing on,when there are probably already too many named snowdrops is debatable, and depends on whether you are an expert or a nurseryman, a fan or just an ordinary gardener.
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I wouldn't dream of passing it off as something named without being absolutely sure it was.
I wasn't suggesting that you would. However mistakes in cultivar identification do arise over time and I bet this is frequently due to lost labels.
I hoped if it was recognisable as a cultivar it would solve the puzzle as to if it was a purchased bulb or a seedling.
I don't think it would. Snowdrop cultivars do not generally come true from seed but that does not mean that all seedlings are readily identifiable as different from the parent.
...As to whether its worth naming and passing on... is debatable
Any vigorous snowdrop with huge flowers has to be worth passing-on. The shadow of doubt hanging over your snowdrop is that it seemingly has barely increased in two decades.
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Another thought, Bailey. You bought 'Comet' about 20 years ago. 'Comet' is an elwesii with huge flowers (when happy). You now have an unidentified elwesii, origin unknown, location accidental, with huge flowers but differently marked to Comet. The most probable explanation, to my mind, is that it has arisen as a seedling from Comet.
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When first I bought named snowdrop cultivars,I was no where near as interested in them,as I am presently.I saw no real need for labels,apart from being able to test what grew against expectations,much as I do now.Mixing things up was much less likely,there was very little to choose from in the catalogues that offered snowdrops.I seem to recall they were expensive,it would be interesting to know the equivalent cost today.Here is what I thought for many years was Comet, now having just searched for pictures I am not so certain.The possibility of the other mystery flower being a seedling from this"Comet", hadn't really occurred to me.I cannot discount the possibility,but can not recall anything apart from some kind of Nivalis in the immediate vicinity ever having seed pods with viable seeds,one of which produced,after only 3 years,the flowering bulb the picture in my first posting.I may have missed seeds being formed.but any seed would have to have been transported by some means quite a long distance.Most local gardens seem to be lacking in snowdrops and apart from one garden in the neighbourhood I have seen nothing except Nivalis types.
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Part of my garden is adjacent to some uncultivated land. In the last few years this has gained a population of winter aconites and at least one snowdrop. Neither grow locally other than in my garden. I haven't examined the snowdrop carefully but it looks to be one of the plicatus snowdrops that are the bulk snowdrop in my garden (beginning from 5 bulbs in 2003). This snowdrop is 2-3 metres from the boundary so there no obvious mechanism by which it could get there but it did so just the same.
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In my garden I believe ants transport snowdrop seeds and I can find seedlings quite a long way from mother plants.
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Hope you 'drop fans are remembering the old thread of a similar name in case you're looking for something.... http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9939.0 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9939.0) [/font]
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Hi Maggi,
I was thinking that its time to start the 2017 thread!
Given that the list stretched to 30 cultivars last year, I thought it might be time to ‘raise the bar’ again.
Tim DH