Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: ruben on September 04, 2015, 04:17:26 PM
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Crocus damascenus - cold en grey weather, the flower has not yet opened.
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nice color, no sign of blooming yet here :(
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Some sun so the first open autumn crocus in the cold frame.
Crocus damascenus
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Crocus cancellatus ssp. mazziaricus - a whitish form - grows perfectly outside!!
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Lovely plants Ruben.
Here are a couple of photographs of Crocus scardicus and C. pelistericus today.
This cold wet summer has meant that they are still in full leaf from last spring whilst on the C. scardicus it is possible to see the new shoots just coming through the top dressing. The c. pelistericus are also just as advanced. The leaves will eventually die off and then they will remain at this stage until early March.It is interesting that if left to their own devices the corms of these two sit just under the surface.
This has been a wonderful growing season for the plants in the garden if not for humans.
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Ruben, I am surprised that your lovely Crocus are flowering already. Are the ones you have shown normally so early or are they very early clones? Here it seems that Crocus and other autumn flowering bulbs are at least 3 weeks later than in average years.
Poul
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Thx Tony! I believe that the summer for u was much colder and wetter than ours. Here in Belgium we had a warmer summer than usual and extreme dry spring and summer.
Poul, the crocus cancellatus ssp. mazziaricus is about a week later than previous years. Because it has grown so well i wanted to try if there was a difference in flowering time if i gave this species a dry summer rest. I did not use a cold frame (to hot for this one) but a box with cover. (see picture). I normally use this for my seedlings.
They're cool but dry in summer. My conclusion is that they are flowering the same, both a this moment.
The one in open ground (with dry and hot summer and some rain) and the one in the box (only watered first time on september first 2015)
So i think this clone of mazziaricus is very early and does not only react on moisture but also on temperature and maybe some other things.
Crocus damescenus is new to me so i can't say But i think (and i read) its also an early one!
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With me crocus season started, too. The first (of course - it was Crocus scharojanii in July) as always is Crocus suworovianus. Every day more and more stocks open their flowers. On this is pictured beautiful form from Yaylasuyun pass collected at altitudes 2330 – 2400 m. Note the nice "nose" on top of flower segments - something in direction of much longer "tail" of C. vallicola. But yesterday some blue tips were observed on the first pot with C. cappadocicus and today flowers completely opened. This is stock collected at its locus classicus on Ziyaretpesi pass. Both are from Turkey. Meanwhile in greenhouse now are horrible smell - for more than month one by other comes out flowers of Biarum's. I have a helper who fills pots with soil for me. And I made a joke, asking him why he used corner of greenhouse instead of going to toilet. And he swore by all that one holds dear, that it was someone else, not he. And then I turned him to flowers of Biarums... Yes, beautiful flowers but most of them with horrible smell. I'm not growing Biarum's in pots. One of my rised beds in greenhouse is filled with soil mix and there are planted some rarest Eremurus species, Central Asian and Iranian Delphiniums, Onco-irises and Eminiums and Biarums. Here pictures of Biarum kotschyi from Turkey and Biarum tenuifolium from Greece.
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Great to see these early flowers. Here it will be another week or two, mine have been kept dry through summer but with shade netting over frame and thick polystyrene sheets over pots to protect from too much heat. I like your box covers and pots plunged in ground Ruben - a good strategy .... although you must have younger knees than I do ;)
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Thanks Tony! My knees be 30 years old next month ;D
My box covers is for my pot with seedlings. They love it in there.
I grow mature bulbs in open ground(see picture) or in a cold frame (see picture)
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Hard working to prepare the seeds for the Crocus group ;D.
Luckily we have great cooperation of a very young member and have a Belgium beer to refresh!!
196 different collections of seeds and corms. THANKS A LOT TO ALL DONORS!
You can still send you're wish list until the 15th of September!
Not a member yet? Good reason to join the crocus group next year!
Much regards Wim(Seed exchange manager) and his helper Ruben
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Not much crocusses are in flower yet, but Crocus damascenus stole the show today.
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Hard working to prepare the seeds for the Crocus group ;D.
Luckily we have great cooperation of a very young member and have a Belgium beer to refresh!!
196 different collections of seeds and corms. THANKS A LOT TO ALL DONORS!
You can still send you're wish list until the 15th of September!
Not a member yet? Good reason to join the crocus group next year!
Much regards Wim(Seed exchange manager) and his helper Ruben
It looks that those packets on your table are from me?
Janis
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Yes thats correct Janis! I help wim to clean the seeds the crocusgroup received from you and others! The deadline is approaching fast and we want to keep us to the date of depatch.
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The first Crocus is out here, and appropriately enough it is C. banaticus 'First Snow'.
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Great to see Matt! Banaticus is so lovely!
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Here is Crocus cappadocicus also in flower. I lost it in open ground but it grews very well under cover.
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Great to see Matt! Banaticus is so lovely!
Isn't it! One of my favourite species, it's just so different, but then there's something special about all the Crocuses!! ;D
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Isn't it! One of my favourite species, it's just so different, but then there's something special about all the Crocuses!! ;D
There is, and it's something I'm trying hard to resist! So many genera, so little time.
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Crocus is a perfect plant Ralph. I have only 2 or 3 month without crocusflowers in the garden ;D
Its a perfect plant to get some colour before the tulips ;D. There are some species you can leave alone and or good garden plants.
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The first Crocus is out here, and appropriately enough it is C. banaticus 'First Snow'.
So early and pure white banaticus is only mine 'First Snow' but here still is too early for it.
Janis
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The first Crocus is out here, and appropriately enough it is C. banaticus 'First Snow'.
My 'First Snow' will open in a few days. Crocus suworovianus is also in bud and scharojanii flavus has send up a second flower. An early clone of C. speciosus is flowering now, while my other speciosus is still under ground. It is raining to much today to take any pictures.
Poul
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Here is Crocus cappadocicus also in flower. I lost it in open ground but it grews very well under cover.
Nice to see Ruben!
Unfortunately I get no flower this year. I lost all my potted mature bulbs but luckily I have some 2 year seedlings.
Poul
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Hopefully they will flower in the next year for you Poul.
Here Crocus cappadocicus opened well today.
Crocus ilgazensis
Crocus kotschyanus HKEP 9317 ( from a nice swap with a very generous forum membe :-d)
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Here slowly starts blooming. Yesterday opened first flowers of Crocuys autranii. Blooms some of Crocus cancellatus gr.
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The earliest species from Crocus speciosus group is C. ilgazensis,. although some forms of Crocus puringhiorum can bloom even earlier. The earliest what I had bloomed at end of July but those were eaten by mice. The first ilgazensis came from Pottertom & Martin, next two pictures - plants collected wild on Ilgaz Dag (the last very dark form). + Biarum "splendens" - this name we gave to this very nice Biarum but by Boyce it isn't new species but form of Kotschyi (?)
Janis
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Very nice Janis! I especially love the bicolored ilgazensis (12-TUA-146)
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Some bonny crocus in the posts above!
A few are in flower here:
Crocus autranii
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5742/21421466846_e3c754dcff_o_d.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/659/21259644910_e845370dd0_o_d.jpg)
Crocus banaticus albus
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5651/21436698732_42c9897265_o_d.jpg)
Crocus karduchorum ex SASA -102
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/716/21259827558_2e7f7678d7_o_d.jpg)
Crocus vallicola
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5788/20826594223_9d54f60236_o_d.jpg)
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Fantastic pictures, Steve!
Here some pictures from last days. At first Crocus cappadocicus and its seedlings, then Crocus damascenus and as last - true Crocus hakkariensis from locus classicus, got from Dirk.
As some addition - Biarum ochridense - still blooms and together with other Biarums fills greenhouse with quite unpleasant smell during hot days (tomorrow offered + 29 C).
Janis
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Very typical Crocus karduchorum, originally collected by Norman Stevens, Jim Archibald,and Seisums Arnis (SASA) in 2003 and its seedling. Colour of stigma can vary - from pure white to creamy yellow (as on Steve's picture). Then Crocus from C. pallasii group, not still identified. Those (as C. cancellatus, too) still need good revision and certainly several new species will come out. Unfortunately I'm too old to continue this research. In addition another Biarum - now B. kotschyi.
Janis
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Retirement from nursery allows for me to give more attention to collection and my last two hobbies - bee keeping (now I have 28 hives and harvested around 600 kg of honey) and choir singing. Our meetings will start in October. But in garden it allows to plant everything much earlier than usually and for me still left only bulbous Irises - reticulatas will finish today and then remains Juno collection - some 200 samples still must be repotted. I'm strongly limiting amount of planted bulbs - for Crocuses it is no more than 4 pots from sample, for reticulata Irises and others - no more than 2 pots from acquisition. All rest goes to Liga's nursery. Hope that she will be successful.
As last for today are Crocus suworovianus and something mysterious crocus named as C. suworovianus forms lilacinus. I got it from Czech friend as collected in E Turkey, but I have my own gathering, too. Is it lilac form of suworovianus or some another species from kotschyanus group - I don't know. Not so easy to check at present situation in E Turkey. As additional picture - some surprise pictured by Liga in her nursery - Deilephila elpenor.
Janis
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More and more flowers of Crocus autranii comes out. Another picture of today is Crocus hadriaticus from Parnasos in Greece. Incredibly sweet perfume comes out of its flowers. No more pictures made today - only few herbariums of some most likely new autumn blooming crocuses were prepared. Very hot in greenhouse - today temperature raised up to 37 C. Crocus hadriaticus flowers bent down in such hot.
Janis
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Very nice pictures Janis! autranii is such a superb crocus!
Here windy and tons of rain! Difficult to take pictures of crocusses..
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autranii is a jewel, lovely photos Janis.
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- Crocus cancellatus ssp. mazziaricus
- Crocus ilgazensis- 4 flower out of one bulb at the same moment!
- Crocus kotschyanus enjoys the evening sun! This is a very good form because of it forms stolones
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- Crocus cancellatus ssp. mazziaricus
- Crocus ilgazensis- 4 flower out of one bulb at the same moment!
- Crocus kotschyanus enjoys the evening sun! This is a very good form because of it forms stolones
Nice crocus, Ruben.
I really have to try C. ilgazenesis!
Poul
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It is hard to compete with Steve's photo quality and the number of crocus from Janis, but I dare it anyway:
1. Crocus autranii has started flowering while the last flower of C. scharojanii flavus is flopping over
2. C. autranii close up
3. The second set of flowers of Crocus speciosus from Russia
Poul
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Very good picture of C. autranii, Paul. From where just in Russia are your speciosus?
Crocus gilanicus - first flowers pictured 2 days ago
Janis
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Crocus gilanicus isn't a easy one for me! Last year it has got a very good seed setting but the bulb is halved.
What are the best conditions for this one? I grow it next to heuffelianus, herberti, kotschyanus, vallicola, cvijicii (all in open ground) ....
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Crocus gilanicus isn't a easy one for me! Last year it has got a very good seed setting but the bulb is halved.
What are the best conditions for this one? I grow it next to heuffelianus, herberti, kotschyanus, vallicola, cvijicii (all in open ground) ....
I think that gilanicus need dryer conditions. I keep it in greenhouse all the year round. From this district I periodically lost only caspius - it isn't very hardy, but with gilanicus I had no problems but I didn't try it outside.
Janis
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Beautiful day passed - moderately warm and more and more crocuses start and continue blooming. C. suworovianus soon will be at end. I'm afraid that soon will come day when will not be possible to show you all new flowers of day. Again I will start with one of my favourites - Crocus autranii. Crocus autranii in wild is slightly variable in shade, but unfortunately it easy hybridizes (as pollen parent) with Crocus gilanicus. F-1 hybrids are almost inseparable from C. autranii only slightly lighter , but such forms are in wild, too. The single +/- certain feature is something smaller flowers. This hybrid is fertile and second generation seedlings according rules of Mendel split and here you can see such F-2 seedlings - one of them almost repeats C. gilanicus. This hybrid for the first time appear in Gothenburg BG when seedlings of C. gilanicus suddenly formed lilac flowers of C. autranii style.
On next picture Crocus armeniacum from heights near Geghart Monastery in Armenia - from there was described mysterious Crocus geghartii - refound and collected by me with help of Zhirair in 2014.
Another crocus which is close to end of blooming is Crocus cappadocicus. Here very nice whitish form of it.
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Although something similar in some forms C. vallicola always blooms after C. suworovianus. It is easy separable from the last by long "tail" on tips of flower segments. Here the form from Turkey and on next two pictures - from Russian Caucasus. For those I must thank to Dima from unhappy Ukraine, suffering from Russian aggression and terrorist gangs in Donbass where lives Dima's parents and is located his garden. All his Caucasian and Azerbaijan gatherings left unplanted in autumn 2014 due Russian aggression.
Another 2 pictures are crocuses from speciosus group originally collected in C Turkey.
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Now 4 pictures collected under name "mazziaricus aff.". The first is from Monastery state on Athos peninsula, collected on slopes of Mnt. Athos (Greece), then two pictures from Samos Island (Greece) and last from Kayseri, Turkey.
The last picture - beautiful form of Crocus puringhiorum, collected by me on Tschatir-dag Yaila in Crimea few monthes before Russian occupation.
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In this entry some of Crocus cancellatus group from Turkey. The last three pictures of very nice dwarf form. You can judge about its size on last picture. Blooms very abbundantly, although corms allways are very small.
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In the last entry today - Spanish Crocus nudiflorus
Wild form of Crocus ilgazensis from locus classicus
Then some from Crocus pallasii group - not far from Antalya
And as last today - Crocus scharojanii var. flavus
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Very good picture of C. autranii, Paul. From where just in Russia are your speciosus?
Crocus gilanicus - first flowers pictured 2 days ago
Janis
Thank you Janis!
Unfortunately I do not know the exact location in Russia where this speciosus came from. I got mine from Sarah and Julian Sutton, Desirable Plants. They describe it as exceptional early, but as it is the first season at my place I can't really judge that yet. But it is earlier than puringhiorum, which has not shown yet. Since I read about the very early speciosus you once had from Crimea, but unfortunately lost, I have been looking for early flowering forms.
Poul
Poul
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Although something similar in some forms C. vallicola always blooms after C. suworovianus. It is easy separable from the last by long "tail" on tips of flower segments. Here the form from Turkey and on next two pictures - from Russian Caucasus. For those I must thank to Dima from unhappy Ukraine, suffering from Russian aggression and terrorist gangs in Donbass where lives Dima's parents and is located his garden. All his Caucasian and Azerbaijan gatherings left unplanted in autumn 2014 due Russian aggression.
Another 2 pictures are crocuses from speciosus group originally collected in C Turkey.
Janis the vallicola from Caucasus is very beautiful! Much better than the Turkish forms I grow.
Poul
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Fore sure what a wonderful set of Crocus dear Janis :o
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Some cracking-looking crocus Janis!
Crocus cappadocicus is in flower here.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/745/21259869318_82d0f6a31b_o_d.jpg)
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Hope you will keep post them Janis! You grow so many Jewels. Its nice to see the pictures and its very instructive.
I very much like the white form op cappadocicus JRRK 090, hope i will come available in the future :-d
Lots of sun todat, so finally the crocusses opened well:
Crocus speciosus 'Oxonian' - still a very good form
Crocus banaticus 'First Snow'
Crocus cancellatus ssp. mazziaricus - at his very best today
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More and more flowers out of Crocus kotschyanus
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Crocus banaticus with a nice contrast in colour is out now, joining C. b. 'First Snow' which I've shown earlier and is pushing up more buds, so this will be 4 flowers - there was one corm and one small offset when I repotted in July - what good value!
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Crocus banaticus with a nice contrast in colour is out now, joining C. b. 'First Snow' which I've shown earlier and is pushing up more buds, so this will be 4 flowers - there was one corm and one small offset when I repotted in July - what good value!
Excellent banaticus, Matt. Mine blue only showed first nose out of soil. Today is raining all the day and flowers stay closed. Nothing else left than to order papers and prepare some herbariums of quite rare crocuses. Pity that for complete herbarium we need to kill the plant.
Janis
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A few years ago i saw a picture of a bicolored banaticus. Any idea of there is another bicolored banaticus? Somebody who grows it?
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Many fantastic pictures and plants already .....here only few that start flowering.
Crocus vallicola is one of them .
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
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Crocus banaticus 'Snowdrift'
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
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Excellent banaticus, Matt. Mine blue only showed first nose out of soil. Today is raining all the day and flowers stay closed. Nothing else left than to order papers and prepare some herbariums of quite rare crocuses. Pity that for complete herbarium we need to kill the plant.
Janis
Thanks, Janis. I think our cool, moist climate suits them rather well. They certainly don't present any problems to grow here.
A few years ago i saw a picture of a bicolored banaticus. Any idea of there is another bicolored banaticus? Somebody who grows it?
Try searching the Bulb Logs Ruben, as I recall some plants with nicely contrasting colours amongst Ian and Maggi's seedlings.
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A few years ago i saw a picture of a bicolored banaticus. Any idea of there is another bicolored banaticus? Somebody who grows it?
I remember Hagen's banaticus bicolor:
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4099.345 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4099.345)
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Some more variations on C. banaticus:
from Ian (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2005/051005/log.html)
from Shelagh (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=2401.msg56010#msg56010)
from Hagen (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=7845.msg214233#msg214233)
and from Poul (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10962.msg285597#msg285597)
Off to cross-pollinate my white and blue!
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Some more variations on C. banaticus:
from Ian (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2005/051005/log.html)
from Shelagh (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=2401.msg56010#msg56010)
from Hagen (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=7845.msg214233#msg214233)
and from Poul (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10962.msg285597#msg285597)
Off to cross-pollinate my white and blue!
My open-pollinated seeds of First Snow and Snowdrift gave mostly blue forms but in each pot were 1-2 whites, but no intermediates.
Janis
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Thanks for the information! I know the one of Hagen is lost.
Did you once found intermediates of banaticus in wild populations Janis?
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A few years ago i saw a picture of a bicolored banaticus. Any idea of there is another bicolored banaticus? Somebody who grows it?
Ruben, my seedlings of the normal blue ones show some variation and it is normal that some of them are more or less bicolored as the one I posted in 2013. I have collected seeds of the most bicolored in hope of getting even more contrasting colours.
Poul
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Thanks for the information! I know the one of Hagen is lost.
Did you once found intermediates of banaticus in wild populations Janis?
In wild I found it only once - this spring in Ukraina, E Carpathians, so I still didn't see its flowers. I never was in other countries where it grow wild.
Janis
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I wasn't going to post this as I didn't get the settings right but, as it's my first of the season I will, here's a poor pic of Crocus serotinus ssp.salzmannii from seed from Rafa.
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I wasn't going to post this as I didn't get the settings right but, as it's my first of the season I will, here's a poor pic of Crocus serotinus ssp.salzmannii from seed from Rafa.
Good you post it anyway David . He deserves as much attention as any other . Even more , remember its your own baby ..... ;) :D ;D
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Crocus banaticus self sows in my garden and the resulting plants are quite variable ranging from pure white to dark purple. Here are a couple flowering now, with one being quite pale. I have marked it and will see whether it is stable next year. My experience is that the pale and pink ones revert to the normal purple in due course.
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First flowers also in my garden:
Crocus vallicola from Turkey, a Zetterlund collection
Crocus speciosus Albus - not a rarity, but still a beauty
Crocus pulchellus - first flowers in my lawn, a gift from Aberdeen ;)
Crocus speciosus - a special early flowering form from an old Swedish garden.
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Nice pale form Cyril! Hope it will be stable. But also very interesting to check if most (read all) pale and pink ones revert back to normal purple, and hope to find the single one(s) that stays stable!
Nice pictures Thomas! Crocus vallicola is such a beauty, here also in flower but not enough sun to open
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Crocus vallicola (from Artvin- Turkey) - in good compagny of Arum italicum 'Breitseite'.
Crocus nudiflorus
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Here my first from Speciosus-Group, Crocus bolensis from Abant Lake in Turkey
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Crocus bolensis - speciosus group
Crocus laevigatus - very early!! (grows outside next to niveus, boryi and niveus only show noses)
Crocus speciosus albus
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Many new flowers over the sunny weekend:
Crocus cambessedesii, different clones
Crocus speciosus Oxonian and ligusticus in my rockgarden
Also on my lawn the flowers slowly increase
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Crocus speciosus is still one of my favourites:
Oxonian
Aino, the form sold nowadays
Aino, probably the original plant, much smaller and more stable than the new plant
Crocus ligusticus - another favourite plant. This one has increased vegetatively very well, which is not standard for this species
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Crocus nudiflorus, photographed in different light-levels all over the day:
(first photo the plant in the foreground is C. ligusticus! Only to distinguish when open, from the red, much branched style)
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Oh yes! Some sunshine improves even the most beautiful flowers.
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Great pictures Thomas! Crocus cambessedesii is such a nice crocus!
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Crocus kotschyanus ssp. kothchyanus
Crocus bolensis, a treasure!
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Wonderful pictures, Thomas!
Got great pleasure out of looking at your photos. Can't wait to see new 'Aino' in real in my garden.
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Crocus archibaldiorum (speciosus group), commemorating the great plantsman, Jim Archibald.
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There are very many crocus speciosus with such patterns growing in the soth of our country. I collected quite an interesting colour forms with nice combinations, which will soon I am going to introduce as cultivars.
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First Crocus goulymi in flower today.
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I love that Crocus archilbaldiorum Cyril. Here no sign of it yet.
Great goulimyi Melvyn.
Crocus tournefortii white form Crete!
Crocus ilgazensis x pulchellus 'Fantasy'
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beautiful tournefortii form Ruben
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Thanks to very nice weather at the second half of September autumn crocuses are enjoying the sun
1,2 Crocus kotchianus different colours
3. Crocus speciosus Bowles Blue (I believe)
4. Crocus speciosus Cassiope
5. Crocus speciosus albus
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Sorry, all of them are upside down. No idea what to do with it
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Hello Oleg - I have turned them round for you now ! :-*
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Thank you, Maggi. You are a super computer-skilled hero
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Oh, far from that- I assure you- just able to do some little things that help! This problem happens sometimes, though I do not know why - Ian thinks it may be something to do with the way the pictures were saved in the first palce on your computer ---- I have no idea, but most times I can turn them here.
:)
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There are very many crocus speciosus with such patterns growing in the soth of our country. I collected quite an interesting colour forms with nice combinations, which will soon I am going to introduce as cultivars.
Zhirair, compare position of stigma in C. archibaldiorum and in yours. Both are very different. I'm just now working on yours which I intend to name C. armeniacum,
Janis
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Extremely busy now. Tomorrow will fly to Edinburgh - to speak for Jim Archibalds Memory lecture about new and old crocuses at Scottish Rock Garden Club Conference. So only one picture which surprised me by its beauty. It is ordinary Crocus pallasii, could be type subspecies, but still not finished identification. It is the first bloom with me from population found in Turkey in Europe (more precisely shown to me by Ibrahim when we searched for C. ibrahimii).
Janis
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Very nice pallasii Janis!
Crocus speciosus 'Oxonian' reaches its peak, its one of my favorite cv's of speciosus for open garden
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That is a stunning C. pallasii, Janis!
Safe travels. We're all looking forward very much to hearing your lecture on Friday!
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Have a good journey, Janis - we are very much looking forward to seeing you. :-*
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Thanks to very nice weather at the second half of September autumn crocuses are enjoying the sun
1,2 Crocus kotchianus different colours
3. Crocus speciosus Bowles Blue (I believe)
4. Crocus speciosus Cassiope
5. Crocus speciosus albus
Oleg, your speciosus 'Bowles Blue' is most probaly the cultivar 'Aino'
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Zhirair, compare position of stigma in C. archibaldiorum and in yours. Both are very different. I'm just now working on yours which I intend to name C. armeniacum,
Janis
Dear Janis,
Thanks for the clue. Dou you think that because of the position of stigma ours should be considered different species or subspecies. What about the variabily withing the same species? It is going very complicated to my point of vew as many crocuses from speciosus group by appearance look the same species.
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....................................many crocuses from speciosus group by appearance look the same species.
How very true :P
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How very true :P
I'm sitting in Airport, waiting for fly, so only quick comment - Type speciosus is woodland species, armeniacum and archibaldiorum - steppelanders. Zhirair must remember how speciosus stopped at edge of forest from forest side an armeniacum stopped where fields/meadows changed to shrubs They are different genetically, too, but we always must to find some feature (better more) allowing to separate by morphology. In this case one of such is position of stigma. More not remember at moment - but wait, I hope to publish it this winter. It is blooming with me now, too. Some forms is almost identical with cv. ARTABIR. May be it was selected just from Armenian species.
Janis
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I'm sitting in Airport, waiting for fly, so only quick comment - Type speciosus is woodland species, armeniacum and archibaldiorum - steppelanders. Zhirair must remember how speciosus stopped at edge of forest from forest side an armeniacum stopped where fields/meadows changed to shrubs They are different genetically, too, but we always must to find some feature (better more) allowing to separate by morphology. In this case one of such is position of stigma. More not remember at moment - but wait, I hope to publish it this winter. It is blooming with me now, too. Some forms is almost identical with cv. ARTABIR. May be it was selected just from Armenian species.
Janis
Janis in this case, what about speciosus from Ijevan? As you remember they all grew under the trees.
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Yes, it (Ijevans sample) is completely different, most likely belongs to type speciosus, but I didn't check yet. It is typical forest type - if you remember - it was blooming only in forest and close to forest edge, not entering deeper on meadow.
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Yes, it (Ijevans sample) is completely different, most likely belongs to type speciosus, but I didn't check yet. It is typical forest type - if you remember - it was blooming only in forest and close to forest edge, not entering deeper on meadow.
Why I asked. Just a week ago you showed a srcous speicosus bloomong samle in yor collection that we collected from Garni. You presented it as crocus armeniniacum. As you remember it grew under the trees. Goris, samples growing under direct sun, also are ppresnted by you as crocus armeniacum. Very complicated Janis. Believe me.
Actually for me, I see crocus goulimyi, crocus niveus, crocus, nudiflorus, crocus kotschianus, all are different and, of cource, they are different species and it is visable. As to crocus speciosus, I am very very sorry, and I don't want to contradict you anyway, but crocus specosus is crocus speciosus with its variability and Soviet and our native botanists when studiing its ccromosum numbers they found out that speiosus from different localities have different cromosom numbers. The same is with tulipa clisiana. The samples from different localities may have different cromosom numbers. But tulipa clisiana remains as tulipa clusina. Studing the latest tendences with merendera, which were merged with colchicums, sternberia greuteriana and sicula, which were merged with strnbergia luitea etc. I see that botanists tend to simplify the classifiatiion. But with crocus speciosus its going to be the opposite. What's for this unwellcome complication?
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Sorry, Zhirair, but we nothing collected at Garni and I haven't any plant from there. We collected at Geghart (in spring) - at bottom under trees, on yaila in low shrubs - about those I can't judge at present. By habitat - forest type. Another was collected at Ijevan - distinct forest type, and the third is armeniacum - meadow plant.
Yes, speciosus are similar, may be for gardener - no difference, although ilgazensis blooms very early, puringhiorum now puringiorum is early, too, "armeniacum" (edit - now C. armeniensis )- a little later, all others still didn't show noses (sorry, xantholaimos just showed noses). But what you will tell about biflorus crocuses? You don't must look only on overall view of flower - important are details, position of stigma, branching, throat, number and cros-section of leaves, corm tunics, basal rings, cataphylls etc. etc. Combination of those makes species unique. Not always easy as apple from pear (both sweet fruits, roseaceae family, grows on tree, ripes in autumn) - sorry, it is joke.
Ibrahimii - white anthers, sakariensis many-branched stigma between anthers, striatulus - very narrow white stripe, brachiphylus (elegans) - only two leaves, ilgazensis and xantholaimos - stigma with few branches but between anthers, in last throat yellow etc., etc.
I didn't agree with merging of Sternbergias - far too different. I never accepted that plants with different chromosome number and even different chromosome morphology are the same species. Usually they even can't hybridize. Of course polyploid lines is different case. But turning to Tulips - do you accept that turkestanica and bifloriformis are different species? If yes, how you separate them? Things are not so simple. Of course those name changes, many new species are not liked by gardeners. I don't like cases when identification is possible only by DNA, but sometimes it is so. Species of greenflies are separated but number of hairs in their, sorry, ass. It is nature in all its diversity. And we must accept this.
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Zhirair and Janis, I am enjoying this. Besides being very informative it shows
how a cordial friendly debate can be had between "friends".
If humanity could all be this way the world be a much better place.
Regards
John B
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Dear Janis,
I understand what you mean. But still some things are still not clear to me. Sorry I was mistaken, we collected some samples from Geghard (not Garni) under the trees and if you can remember a week ago you showed themn the forum blooming at your place presenting as crocus armeniacum. And what about Georgian forms. You told that in Georgia near the lake Cherepaschye type subspecies grows. But when we visited there and studied the crocuses at that locality, you told that the samples looked identical to our Ijevanian forms. I am sorry, it is really very complicated. Further investigations are needed. I also wonder what tipes grow in Azerbaijan.
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Dear Zhirair,
Yes, Geghart plants really bloomed, but I didn't looked carefully on them, so I can't tell what they really are. By very brief look they resembled armeniacum but type speciosus still not started blooming to be exactly compared. Ijevan plants I regard as identical with Georgian near Czerepasje Lake. Both belongs to type species. Of course this is very complicated group, but such are most of crocuses. Crocus reticulatus were split in 6 and the 7th were newly described by Helmut & Erich. Crocus ancyrensis was regarded as single species - now turned that under this name are hidden 5 different crocuses waiting researcher who will explore them. The similar we can tall about danfordiae, too. There now are separated kurdistanicus, minimus, brickelli and several still wait description. Crocus chrysanthus I'm not even listing here.
It is not true that botanists go in direction of simplicity. When I was student there was only Scilla - now was found that under this name is hidden more than 10 different genera and as scilla remains only species grouped around Scilla bifolia - all other "scilla's" are renamed. In my young years, if I remember correctly, there were four " kingdoms" - animals, plants, mushrooms and bacteria(?). Now there are much more than 10, not remember how many just - it isn't my field of research.
Returning to Sterbergia. Greuteriana from Crete has leaves adpressed to soil and curved, I never saw such in sicula and lutea, and never saw any sicula/lutea like on Crete. More difficult is question about sicula and lutea. I saw a lot of populations where only sicula type is represented and no problems to name. And the same I can tell about lutea, too. But on Pelloponess both types grow side by side - mixed and there really appear intermediates where is very difficult decide - which one is in front of your eyes. May be they are hybrids? May be it is place from where divergence started and where still ancient form is growing which developed in two variants - narrow leafed and wide-leafed. There are no doubt about naming in populations where only one morphological type is represented. But it isn't my field. Genetic research tell that all three are the same, but we still are not capable to research all genome. All researches are based on some fragment of genome, regarded as important for separation. I'm not specialist in this field, but I suppose that may be differences are hidden in another fragments of genome?
Janis
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I also don't accept merging sternbergia greuteriana and sicula with lutea. But there is complication as well here. I got some lutea forms from Angello Percelli from Itally and they all by appearance and form and size of the leaves resemble sicula. The lutea I received from you is quite a robust plants with thick and wide leaves. Pitty it showed virus symptoms this year. I don't have a good clue to separate these ones from each other. The other strenbergias are easily separable by appearance.
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Zhirair and Janis, I am enjoying this. Besides being very informative it shows
how a cordial friendly debate can be had between "friends".
If humanity could all be this way the world be a much better place.
Regards
John B
So true, John - its great to have these experts discussing things in such a civilised fashion here. We can learn so much from them - not least politeness!
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Oleg, your speciosus 'Bowles Blue' is most probaly the cultivar 'Aino'
Thanks, Zhirair. Very probable
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Crocus pulchellus from the greenhouse today:-