Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: olegKon on June 25, 2015, 12:10:38 PM
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Nobody seem to have started the allium thread this year. I wish I had seen early bloomers here. But better late than never. Would I start with a question? This small creature grew in a seedling pot where no alliums had been supposed. I don't have a slightest idea of what it is. Any help to id it? Sorry for the picture quality.
[attachimg=1]
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Sorry again. I don't know why the picture is upside down or how to correct it
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Sometimes the photo just flips, Oleg! Not sure why but I have turned it for you.
I agree it is a shame there has been no allium thread before now for this year - I think several members are posting their photos on social media - a pity because the audience is limited and if any information is added there it is quickly lost. :'(
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Thank you, Maggi. You are always of help. I'll try to post some more pictures and not sure I won't need your help again
1. Allium bodeanum May 31
2. Allium elburzensis May 31
3. Allium amplectens now
4. Allium altaicum now
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Just finished flowering here is the form of Allium bodeanum illustrated in the Phillips & Rix 'Bulbs' book:
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Thank you, Maggi. You are always of help. I'll try to post some more pictures and not sure I won't need your help again
1. Allium bodeanum May 31
2. Allium elburzensis May 31
3. Allium amplectens now
4. Allium altaicum now
The second plant is allium egorovae and not elburzense
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Just finished flowering here is the form of Allium bodeanum illustrated in the Phillips & Rix 'Bulbs' book:
This is extremely late Darren. I am cleaning my seedpots already !
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This picture was taken a couple of weeks ago Luc, but this plant still has some green in the leaf and the seed capsules have not yet split, the last flowers have only just faded. It does seem to be later here than others of this section that I grow. The bonus of this is that the good light keeps the stem short :). It might help that it is in a frame rather than in the greenhouse where it would be much warmer.
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Thank you, Luc. It was received from Norman Stevens as Allium elburzensis, so having some doubts I didn't bother to check. Anyway, I'm happy about it
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I still have alliums in my garden. I broke the paler one in the first photo off when weeding. I'm not sure of the ID. It may be A. narcissiflorum. The last photo is A. karataviense. I bought this pot of flowering bulbs last month because I have not managed to grow it from seeds or bulbs. I started growing alliums a few years ago to bridge the flowering gap between the Spring bulbs and the kniphofia.
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I admit I'm quite addicted to planting taller alliums because they send up leaves in the herbaceous border which die off as the flowers appear. As they die off the kniphofia start flowering. Woodpeckers love to sip the nectar from the kniphofia.
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The allium flowers brought in to the house after I accidentally broke the stem have opened up beautifully. I managed to get photos showing both the face and the back of the flowers.
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Allium flavum subsp. tauricum looks like fireworks
and Allium 'Valerie Finnis'
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Thank you, Maggi. You are always of help. I'll try to post some more pictures and not sure I won't need your help again
1. Allium bodeanum May 31
2. Allium elburzensis May 31
3. Allium amplectens now
4. Allium altaicum now
I am wondering if your unknown allium could be a seedling from the A. amplectens you already have. It is hard to see the detail as the first photo shows an allium in decline.
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Allium flavum subsp. tauricum looks like fireworks
and Allium 'Valerie Finnis'
Wow, I haven't been over to this side of the pond for a long time. Yay Alliums!
Wim, I can't find much at all, on an Allium named 'Valerie Finnis', of course we all know the famous Muscari cultivar by that name, and apparently there's an Artemisia cultivar by that name too. What can you tell us about that Allium. Looks like one of a number of pale red & white forms of Allium paniculatum.
Haha, was trying to find the "like" button on these pics, guess I'm spending too much time on facebook.
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Wim, I can't find much at all, on an Allium named 'Valerie Finnis', of course we all know the famous Muscari cultivar by that name, and apparently there's an Artemisia cultivar by that name too. What can you tell us about that Allium. Looks like one of a number of pale red & white forms of Allium paniculatum.
Actually McMark, I have no idea, I received it as a gift from a friendly nursery-woman 5 years ago, she lost hers in the same year and 2 years ago I gave her back a big clump, now she's selling it at her nursery. I'll ask her, the only thing I remember is that she bought it on one of her travels in England.
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In a 2002 bulletin of the AGS, issue 290/No70, page 416, Allium 'Valerie Finnis' is described just with that name (no species mentioned) as being "about 10cm or a little more" and having "pendant flowers with a very difficult-to-describe colour combination. The petals are partly a muted pale reddish-brown and partly cream. This sounds dull, but is, in fact quietly attractive."
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I am wondering if your unknown allium could be a seedling from the A. amplectens you already have. It is hard to see the detail as the first photo shows an allium in decline.
thank you a lot. It could be a probability but for the petals which are not that acuminate. Anyway I am going to cultivate this unknown thing now full of fleshy seed pods
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Actually McMark, I have no idea, I received it as a gift from a friendly nursery-woman 5 years ago, she lost hers in the same year and 2 years ago I gave her back a big clump, now she's selling it at her nursery. I'll ask her, the only thing I remember is that she bought it on one of her travels in England.
To my eye, A. 'Valerie Finnis' is superficially similar to this plant shown at the AGS Pershore show: https://lawrencepeetalpines.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/image67.jpg (https://lawrencepeetalpines.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/image67.jpg)
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Indeed it is, Matt - well spotted!
That plant has a label saying Allium serra - though none of the pix I've seen of that have the pendant flowers of that plant or of the 'Valerie Finnis' - the plot thickens!
Roland has shown a similar plant, which he obtained as A. Serra, pix here : http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6685.msg209552#msg209552 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6685.msg209552#msg209552) but which Mark McDonough identified as a low-growing form of Allium paniculatum. In subsequent posts to the one shown above, McMark gives various links to show the photos of true A. serra
Seems there may be more than one supplier calling this plant, in error, A. serra!
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Thanks Maggi for providing the reference trail. I had grown Allium serra for a couple years, not a strong grower here, but with a tight cluster of upright flowers, not at all like the red and cream paniculatum being shown.
Forms of Allium paniculatum are among the top Allium imposters; I have tried many Allium "species", some from well known botanic gardens, that turned out to be other species, such as paniculatum. And if not paniculatum, high probability resulting plants are cyathophorum var. farreri, senescens, angulosum, or cernuum.
In the link that Matt posted from the AGS Perth show, I'm reminded of a pet peeve; notice that the show plant has been ever so meticulously denuded, leaving only the flower stems; ack :P ! That plant looks just like one that I received from a friend John Jerry Flintoff many years ago, which for wanting of a name to distinguish it from other paniculatum forms, I dubbed it Allium paniculatum 'Jerry'.
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In the link that Matt posted from the AGS Perth show, I'm reminded of a pet peeve; notice that the show plant has been ever so meticulously denuded, leaving only the flower stems; ack :P ! That plant looks just like one that I received from a friend John Jerry Flintoff many years ago, which for wanting of a name to distinguish it from other paniculatum forms, I dubbed it Allium paniculatum 'Jerry'.
It is one of the nonsenses of show judging , Mark, that if the onion had been shown with the tatty leaves so many alliums have at flowering time, it would have stood no chance of a prize. There are other plants/bulbs which similarly have fading foliage at flowering time and they are usually denuded for showing. I've first hand experience of other judges saying they think that this stripping of the leaves is what should be done. A small but irritating factor about the lack of reality in much showing, I'm afraid.
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Very little Allium business going on in this topic, even when at peak Allium season (at least so, in my garden). Here's an allium garden scene from a few days ago, mid July 2015, with various forms and colors of Allium cernuum and flavum var. tauricum.
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Last year I found this unique white-flowered Allium cernuum plant, one of innumerable self-sown plants. I moved it to a new garden location last summer, pleased to see it displays well with thick, glossy green arched pedicels, and just a kiss of pink on the flowers. It grows rather tall, about 70 cm.
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Allium cernuum - longflower white - is an elegant one, McMark.
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I just had to try the photo resize feature :)
So here is Allium flavum - doing no harm planted out.
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I just had to try the photo resize feature :)
So here is Allium flavum - doing no harm planted out.
And it works brilliantly - well done team SRGC Forum!
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Here's a few rather good color forms of Allium flavum var. tauricum (orange, pink, and red), love regular flavum and all of the tauricum colors.
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Super colour forms Mark.
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hi, can someone confirm that these ex AGS seed exchange plants are as I've ID'd them please?
I think I have caesium and then two different examples of sikkimense
thanks!
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Mark, the IDs look correct to me. :)
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great thanks! The first sikkimense came labelled as something else but sikkimense is probably a nicer plant anyway.
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With Allium cernuum and stellatum, and with early and late forms of each, intergrading hybrids are common, for many I can no longer say with certainty which they may be, except to say they fall into the "cernuum camp" or "stellatum camp". Add to that, some of these hybridize with senescens and nutans as well.
1-2 Allium cernuum, tall white types, one that is pink-flushed on backs of the flowers.
3 Allium cernuum tall pinks shades, with Liatris and Aconitum cammarum 'Bicolor'.
4-5 Allium hybrid - guessing it is [cernuum x senescens 'Green Eyes'] x cernuum white,
very tall, equally spaced small forets, strong arched pedicel geometry, slow growing
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Saw this very smart-looking Allium last night in a friend's garden. Ken thinks it could be Mark's 'Millenium'.
john
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hi, can someone confirm that these ex AGS seed exchange plants are as I've ID'd them please?
Your first photo of sikkimense looks very like the seedlings I have grown using SRGC seeds. The cover (sorry not familiar with the correct terminology) over the flowers had a 'beak' similar to what you are showing. Once the flowers opened today I took this photo. Its raining and windy again so I brought the pot indoors to take the photo. This is a very blue colour compared to other alliums I have.
The second photo is a close up of the cover I am talking about.
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Saw this very smart-looking Allium last night in a friend's garden. Ken thinks it could be Mark's 'Millenium'.
john
John, it's a neat growing Allium for sure, but unless the buds color up soon to an intense rose-purple, it's not Millenium.
While here answering, the following photos show a new Allium from Intrinsic Perennial Gardens, in Hebron, Illinois, USA. In bud now and just starting to open flowers, it certainly shows intense color buds and two-toned florets.
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Hi Mark,
nice to see you here (since the NARGS Forum seems to have migrated to FB!).
That hybrid is quite alluring :)
Do you know the breeding?
It appears to be summer growing, so would need watering through to its flowering period, I presume; does it go dormant over winter?
cheers
fermi
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Hi Mark,
nice to see you here (since the NARGS Forum seems to have migrated to FB!).
That hybrid is quite alluring :)
Do you know the breeding?
It appears to be summer growing, so would need watering through to its flowering period, I presume; does it go dormant over winter?
cheers
fermi
Hi Fermi. Actually many members of NARGS & SRGC forums are very active on FB. NARGS Forum is moribund, if you hadn't posted on Narcissus today, it would have been 4 whole days without a single post! NARGS Forum has become irrelevant, tis sad.
I can ask the breeder (from Intrinsic Perennial Gardens) if he knows the lineage; I suspect it is an open-pollinated selection, looks akin to my 'Millenium' (multi-generational senescens x nutans type), but even more intense in flower color. And yes, both parents are season-long rhizomatous growing plants, going dormant in winter. These are drought resistant, but for best foliage without drying tips, they can be watered.
Two views from yesterday, 07-27-2015, a late blooming form of Allium cernuum with reddish pedicels, bright pink A. saxatile, and lighter pink Allium senescens forms and hybrids behind. While it was an overcast day (eventually thunderstorms and deluge rain), it was a hot and steamy day.
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Hi Mark,
Those look good.
For some reason I've lost Allium cernuum - I thought it was probably because it was growing in a summer dry bed and wanted a bit more water.
I have seedlings now which I'll plant out into a bed which will get some summer watering,
cheers
fermi
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Mark - These Ken got for a friend as your 'Millenium', local gorcery chain! The other one we'll have to check back to see if it colours up but a long hike out to it.
johnw
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quote author=Mark Griffiths Reply #29 on: July 25, 2015, 02:28:49 PM (post on previous page)
hi, can someone confirm that these ex AGS seed exchange plants are as I've ID'd them please?
Hi Mark, here is a photo of the A. sikkimense (right side) which I grew from SRGC seeds sowed Spring 2014 and on the left is A.sikkimense grown from AGS seed sowed in 2012 by a member who lives near London. These were sent to me as seedlings and I potted them on. To me they look to be the same except that mine are a good bit taller. Mine are growing as a clump because I sowed them in one hole one inch deep. Mine also started flowering earlier but the two pots were in different parts of the garden. i have looked at your photos and am puzzled as to why you think they are different from one another. What am I missing?
(edit by maggi to add details of location of original post )
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hi, no I thought were the same but was just making sure - particualrly as one came to me as I think A.cyneum and other as A.sikkemense. Happy they are both A. sikkimense. :)
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Two views from yesterday, 07-27-2015, a late blooming form of Allium cernuum with reddish pedicels, bright pink A. saxatile, and lighter pink Allium senescens forms and hybrids behind. While it was an overcast day (eventually thunderstorms and deluge rain), it was a hot and steamy day.
These are really nice looking Alliums. I'm not very familiar with Alliums, but these plants got my interest. :)
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[attachimg=1]
The humble chives, Allium schoenoprasum. I don't grow many Alliums as the slugs like them here, and I don't think they get enough summer heat or lime. But in purely ornamental terms I think chives stands up against anything else on this thread, and of course it's nice in a salad too!
The moth is a beautiful yellow-underwing, Anarta myrtilli (http://ukmoths.org.uk/show.php?bf=2142).
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Mark - These Ken got for a friend as your 'Millenium', local gorcery chain! The other one we'll have to check back to see if it colours up but a long hike out to it.
johnw
That one looks right John. It's sort of fun to learn of one's hybrids becoming so broadly distributed, to the point they're offered for sale at grocery chains, Millenium has become a household commodity.
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I purchased this Allium earlier this year as paniculatum and I think it is the dwarf red form unless someone can tell me it is something else.
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Allium litvinovii has just finished flowering in my garden, it is one of my favourites.
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Allium litvinovii has just finished flowering in my garden, it is one of my favourites.
Jackie,
I agree, what a beautiful Allium!
I certainly enjoy its color. Is it easy-to-grow?
So far, I have not had much success with any of the Allium species in the bluish shades. There are some somewhat unhappy Allium beesianum trying to bloom with our 41 C California dry heat. It has since cooled to 33 C. It is still unhappy.
Thank you for sharing the photographs. Your Alliums are quite lovely!
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Jackie,
I agree, what a beautiful Allium!
I certainly enjoy its color. Is it easy-to-grow?
So far, I have not had much success with any of the Allium species in the bluish shades. There are some somewhat unhappy Allium beesianum trying to bloom with our 41 C California dry heat. It has since cooled to 33 C. It is still unhappy.
Thank you for sharing the photographs. Your Alliums are quite lovely!
Hi Robert
This is the first year I have grown it. I bought 10 bulbs and put 3 in the ground and 7 in a pot. The 3 in the ground disappeared, I think they rotted off and the ones in the pot were fine. I don't think they like cold and wet. Some people have found they flower the first year, reappear the next but don't flower. I have had a dig around in the pot and each bulb has split into 3 identical size bulbs so next year I will have to see what happens. They may be alright for you as we have had some very hot weather earlier when they were flowering, I didn't water them and they were fine.
I have found the 'small blues', sikkimens, beesianum and cyaneum all need a bit of moisture and my cyaneum wasn't happy when it was very hot. If you like blue ones have you tried caeruleum or caesium? I have found those prefer it dry.
Here is another of my alliums that is flowering now, A. lenkoraniucum, each bulb as produced 3 flower heads and has been happy in pots and in the ground. The flower buds haven't opened yet I really like it but it is not showy like a lot of alliums.
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Robert, I may be wrong but I think the smaller blue ones are more alpine and don't particularly like the heat.
But there is A. caeruleum and A. ceasium that central asian species that might be better for you.
Hope you are safe from the fires - we have family in Lake County and are nervously following the news.
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for Robert, this is A.caeruleum
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Jackie,
I very much appreciate all the information! :)
I will look into giving A. caeruleum and A. caesium a try, and it appears A. litvinovii may be worth a try too.
As might be expected, I have good success with many of our California native Allium species. With other species, I have used the "shotgun" method, growing what ever I could get (avoiding the known thugs) and seeing what worked. The results have been mixed.
With your suggestion I can narrow my next efforts. Thank you.
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for Robert, this is A.caeruleum
Mark,
The perfect photograph. I am definitely looking for an Allium in that Blue to Deep Purplish-blue colour range.
All your information is helpful. Thank you.
We are safe from any fires..... for the moment. The "Rocky" fire in Lake county is a big mess. If you have family in that area you are rightly concerned! The hills in that part of the Coastal Range are covered in a dense chaparral that burns with extreme heat. This fire is moving extremely quickly and is now moving erratically with the variable and gusty winds. I certainly hope that they, all that is theirs, remain safe. The situation is very dangerous right now.
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Robert, they are in Kelseyville, west of the fires and we are hoping the fire doesn't head in that direction.
I expect A.caeruleum is reasonably easy to get in the US - I bought mine dry from a garden centre - sort of equivalent to your home depot. I kept them in a pot and after flowering them outside I've brought them in because I think they like a warm and dry rest - it had been very wet here. Hopefully they will be as good next year.
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Robert, they are in Kelseyville, west of the fires and we are hoping the fire doesn't head in that direction.
I expect A.caeruleum is reasonably easy to get in the US - I bought mine dry from a garden centre - sort of equivalent to your home depot. I kept them in a pot and after flowering them outside I've brought them in because I think they like a warm and dry rest - it had been very wet here. Hopefully they will be as good next year.
Mark,
Your family members in Kelseyville are fairly safe. The Rocky fire is east of Clear Lake. At this time the winds are more likely to drive the fire to the southeast or to the south, however this is even uncertain. Also, the fire has not burned all the fuel completely, so back-burning is a possibility.
I am glad to hear that Allium caeruleum might be somewhat easy to find here in the U.S.A. Giving them a warm, dry rest will be easy here in California.
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I was wondering if someone could help me identify this allium. I purchased it as A. stracheyi but I don't think it is. I know if you look at various sites selling it they have a plant that looks like mine. But I have a copy of the book Allium and Milula in the central and eastern Himalaya by William T Stearm and it describes A. stracheyi as follows ' Tepals purple, pink or reddish with a deeper red mid nerve: Leaves not more than 3mm broad' so it can't be that! It looks a bit like A. obliquum but isn't. It has a different leaf shape, narrower and fatter and only sheaths the lower 8th. It flowers later than A. oliquum and the tepals are more open. I did consider A.hookeri car muliense but again the leaf isn't right. Anybody got any other ideas?
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I grew this white allium from seed labeled as Allium sikkimense. but a visitor said it was not sikkimense.
the tepals are 6-7mm long and the stamens do not protrude past the tepals as the description for A. sikkimense.
perhaps a short tepal A. beesianum white form?
Can anyone confirm the identity?
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here is another blue allium about to bloom.
seed came as Allium narcissiflorum, obviously not.
the leaves are flat like Allium narcissiflorum
The stamens extend past the tepals like Allium cyaneum but the leaves are wrong.
any ideas?
A. foresteri?
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This tiny blue allium is what is locally sold as Allium beesianum but the stamens extend beyond the tepals so it is not beesianum
about 6" tall, thread leaves, blooms now in early August.
any ideas?
Allium cyaneum?
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6" tall blue one with exserted stamens is Allium cyaneum.
No idea on the budded one, doesn't appear that it will be either beesianum or forrestii. Show us both leaves and flowers when the flowers open.
[Edit: I see that you uploaded new photos since original post, showing flowers open and some pale blue color, so now to try to determine what it can be.]
On the white one labeled as "sikkemense" (species spelling is sikkimense), can't see any foliage, too dark. can you get a photo of the foliage and whole plant, to help figure out what its ID might be.
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I was wondering if someone could help me identify this allium. I purchased it as A. stracheyi but I don't think it is. I know if you look at various sites selling it they have a plant that looks like mine. But I have a copy of the book Allium and Milula in the central and eastern Himalaya by William T Stearm and it describes A. stracheyi as follows ' Tepals purple, pink or reddish with a deeper red mid nerve: Leaves not more than 3mm broad' so it can't be that! It looks a bit like A. obliquum but isn't. It has a different leaf shape, narrower and fatter and only sheaths the lower 8th. It flowers later than A. oliquum and the tepals are more open. I did consider A.hookeri car muliense but again the leaf isn't right. Anybody got any other ideas?
Hi Jackie,
Here's a couple good links showing what Allium stracheyi looks like:
ENVIS Centre on Wildlife & Protected Areas, India (Threatened/ Medicinal plants)
Allium stracheyi
http://wiienvis.nic.in/WriteReadData/Photogallery/Allium%20stracheyi_%20Vulnerable_IUCN_Pic_Amit%20Kumar.JPG (http://wiienvis.nic.in/WriteReadData/Photogallery/Allium%20stracheyi_%20Vulnerable_IUCN_Pic_Amit%20Kumar.JPG)
Allium stracheyi page, good photos
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/allium$20stracheyi/indiantreepix/XPIe423URWw/-yqAq7fwbrwJ (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/allium$20stracheyi/indiantreepix/XPIe423URWw/-yqAq7fwbrwJ)
Note: if the link just brings you to "Google Groups" use the search option and search Allium stracheyi, it should come right up.
I grew Allium stracheyi many years ago, it was a pale yellow form with pinkish flush and nerves. I grew it back in the 1980s when I lived in mild Seattle Washington climate, it flowered very late, in November. When I moved back across country to New England USA, it could only flower (in December) if I brought it inside. While hardy here, it was always too late to bloom successfully once we started getting freezing weather.
While normally rosy color, it is reported that the Kashmir specimens have very pale yellow flowers. At one point a bright yellow Allium named A. consanguineum was put in synonymy with stracheyi, but that lumping didn't stick, and both species are accepted now.
Your plant does have an obliquum look to it. That species has a very broad distribution and can be quite variable, the perianth is described as varying from broadly cup-shaped (as in your plant), to globose.
I looked at many A. obliquum accessions on the most excelent Taxonomic Allium Research Collection at Gatersleben Germany, you can use the following link with 27 accessions of obliquum, about half of which have photos, click the little paper icon on the left, then use the left/right arrow to move through the records. Some accessions show open flowers, some globose florets, leaf sheathing the stem can be anywhere from about 1/5th the stem to almost half, most seem on the lower percentage, and flowers quite yellow in some, chartreuse to green in others, lots of variability.
http://apex.ipk-gatersleben.de/apex/f?p=265:3:17083293814673::NO::P3_SCIENTIFIC_NAME:884 (http://apex.ipk-gatersleben.de/apex/f?p=265:3:17083293814673::NO::P3_SCIENTIFIC_NAME:884)
For comparison, I have also grown Allium hookeri var. muliense, very distinctive, I don't think it's a match for your plant.
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Hi Mark
thank you for your help!
here are some photos with a camera vs. iPhone of the A." sikkemense" of the leaves
Rimmer
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Hi Mark
here are better photos of the flat leaved allium with the stamens that extend past the tepals
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Hi Mark
Thanks for all the information. The link you sent to the German website is amazing. I looked at all the photos one had a flower similar to mine but none of the leaves are right. I have included a picture of the whole plant ( I purchased it already in a pot and I think the bulbs might be on short rhizomes but I don't want to dig about too much until it has gone dormant). I have also included a picture of this unknown allium leaf next to an obliquum leaf. The A. obliquum leaf is very flat and much wider than the other one. But the biggest difference is the leaf is narrower, fatter and hollow. I have drawn a cross section next to the leaf.
From your picture of A. hookeri var muliense it is not that. There is no pink on any of the flowers but do you think it might be A. stracheyi after all?
Thanks again for all your help.
Jackie
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From your picture of A. hookeri var muliense it is not that. There is no pink on any of the flowers but do you think it might be A. stracheyi after all?
Thanks again for all your help.
Jackie
Jackie, your photos are tiny, just a smidgeon larger than the thumbnails when clicked on, so I can't see any of the detail. Can you repost much larger photos please.
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Hi Mark
Sorry about that we have so many problems with our broadband I had compressed them to get both on the same posting but made them too small.
Jackie
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That one looks right John. It's sort of fun to learn of one's hybrids becoming so broadly distributed, to the point they're offered for sale at grocery chains, Millenium has become a household commodity.
Well it certainly is getting nicely spread around. It was admired in John Metcalfe's garden in Forncett on a recent Hardy Plant Society visit so he brought several along with him to raise funds for the group at today's social. They were snapped up in no time!
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This is a long story- so I've added all the relevant quotes!
Quote from: TheOnionMan on July 10, 2015, 09:16:50 PM
Wim, I can't find much at all, on an Allium named 'Valerie Finnis', of course we all know the famous Muscari cultivar by that name, and apparently there's an Artemisia cultivar by that name too. What can you tell us about that Allium. Looks like one of a number of pale red & white forms of Allium paniculatum.
Actually McMark, I have no idea, I received it as a gift from a friendly nursery-woman 5 years ago, she lost hers in the same year and 2 years ago I gave her back a big clump, now she's selling it at her nursery. I'll ask her, the only thing I remember is that she bought it on one of her travels in England.
To my eye, A. 'Valerie Finnis' is superficially similar to this plant shown at the AGS Pershore show: https://lawrencepeetalpines.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/image67.jpg (https://lawrencepeetalpines.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/image67.jpg)
Indeed it is, Matt - well spotted!
That plant has a label saying Allium serra - though none of the pix I've seen of that have the pendant flowers of that plant or of the 'Valerie Finnis' - the plot thickens!
Roland has shown a similar plant, which he obtained as A. Serra, pix here : http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6685.msg209552#msg209552 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6685.msg209552#msg209552) but which Mark McDonough identified as a low-growing form of Allium paniculatum. In subsequent posts to the one shown above, McMark gives various links to show the photos of true A. serra
Seems there may be more than one supplier calling this plant, in error, A. serra!
In a 2002 bulletin of the AGS, issue 290/No70, page 416, Allium 'Valerie Finnis' is described just with that name (no species mentioned) as being "about 10cm or a little more" and having "pendant flowers with a very difficult-to-describe colour combination. The petals are partly a muted pale reddish-brown and partly cream. This sounds dull, but is, in fact quietly attractive."
This is the plant, pictured by Wim B. in 2014
[attachimg=1]
I wrote to Vic Aspland, who had made that note in the AGS bulletin to see what he might recall of the provenance of the plant . Here is his reply:
"Hello Maggi,
Many apologies for the delay in responding to your email.
Like you, I searched all over the place for info on this plant.
I eventually discovered that it is a selection of Allium pallens.
Who told me this, I cannot remember, but I subsequently raised A. pallens from seed for comparison and, to be perfectly frank, could not see any difference between the two.
One usually expects a named form to be superior in some way, but this appears not to be the case on this occasion.
Both plants seem to be particularly vulnerable to high rainfall during summer; I have been reduced to just a few bulbs in a wet summer. Good drainage seems to be essential.
Kind regards,
Vic "
An excellent result in getting this information, I think - thanks to Vic. 8)
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Allium pallens?? Isn't that one a white flowering one...It grows on the Iberian peninsula...maybe one of our Spanish forumnists can shed some light on this...
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Wondering if there are various colour forms though?
Oron has cited a photo here : http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/98018.html (http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/98018.html) of A. pallens subsp coppoleri and there are various pix of other A. pallens - supposedly - here
https://www.facebook.com/groups/575374019245196/search/?query=pallens (https://www.facebook.com/groups/575374019245196/search/?query=pallens) ( I hope this page is open for all to see.) They are of a form with out-facing white globe type flowers. :-\
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hi, can anyone identify this Allium? It came from AGS sed as A. acuminatum ::) obviously it isn't but I'd like to know what it is. Bad picture of the leaves - they seems flattened and twisted. It maybe a bit taller than it should be as it was growing in shade. Quite pretty though.
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This is a long story- so I've added all the relevant quotes!
This is the plant, pictured by Wim B. in 2014
(Attachment Link)
I wrote to Vic Aspland, who had made that note in the AGS bulletin to see what he might recall of the provenance of the plant . Here is his reply:
"Hello Maggi,
Many apologies for the delay in responding to your email.
Like you, I searched all over the place for info on this plant.
I eventually discovered that it is a selection of Allium pallens.
Who told me this, I cannot remember, but I subsequently raised A. pallens from seed for comparison and, to be perfectly frank, could not see any difference between the two.
One usually expects a named form to be superior in some way, but this appears not to be the case on this occasion.
Both plants seem to be particularly vulnerable to high rainfall during summer; I have been reduced to just a few bulbs in a wet summer. Good drainage seems to be essential.
Kind regards,
Vic "
An excellent result in getting this information, I think - thanks to Vic. 8)
That one is surely NOT pallens. Growing Alliums from seedexes results in very high risk of misidentified plants, thus growing seed labeled as pallens has very high risk of not being true. The gorgeous clump shown, photographed by Wim, is indeed a form of Allium paniculatum.
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I was wondering if someone could help me identify this allium. I purchased it as A. stracheyi but I don't think it is. I know if you look at various sites selling it they have a plant that looks like mine. But I have a copy of the book Allium and Milula in the central and eastern Himalaya by William T Stearm and it describes A. stracheyi as follows ' Tepals purple, pink or reddish with a deeper red mid nerve: Leaves not more than 3mm broad' so it can't be that! It looks a bit like A. obliquum but isn't. It has a different leaf shape, narrower and fatter and only sheaths the lower 8th. It flowers later than A. oliquum and the tepals are more open. I did consider A.hookeri car muliense but again the leaf isn't right. Anybody got any other ideas?
It looks like what I grow as allium condensatum
[attachimg=1]
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I bought a pack of 'mixed shallots' in Dobbies (Taylor's Bulbs) in the spring. One produced flower buds which I have not seen in shallots before. I have not dug up the bulbs but there are three flowering stems.
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A NEW ENDEMIC SUBSPECIES OF ALLIUM PHANERANTHERUM (AMARYLLIDACEAE) FROM TURKEY AND ITS ANTIPROLIFERATIVE EFFECTS ON MCF-7 HUMAN BREAST CANCER CELL LINE
Conference Paper · January 2014
Conference: 23° ITALO-LATINAMERICAN ASIAN & AFRICAN CONGRESS OF ETHNOMEDICINE
Gulnur Eksi Ankara University
Filiz Bakar
Mehmet Bona Istanbul University
Ceyda Sibel Kılıç
Ayşe Mİne Gençler Özkan
- in pdf 1.35MB
Allium therinanthum (Amaryllidaceae), a new species from Israel
ARTICLE in PHYTOTAXA · APRIL 2014
Impact Factor: 1.38 · DOI: 10.11646/phytotaxa.164.1.3
5 AUTHORS, INCLUDING:
Ori Fragman-Sapir
Jerusalem Botanical Gardens
Cristina Salmeri
Università degli Studi di Palermo
in pdf 4.97MB
If anyone would like to see these papers, please PM me
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Alliums make a great show in my garden now:
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Two of which I'm not certain.
The first one was bought as A. beesianum - can anyone confirm this or is it A. sikkemense? How can I distinguish them?
The second looks like Wim's plant, was found by me in Italy and identified as A. pallens, but maybe this is also A. paniculatum?
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Hi Thomas,
I'm not familiar with the latter plant, but the exerted stamens of the first one suggest A. cyaneum rather than A. beesianum.
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Thanks Matt - I bought A. cyaneum last year and planted beneath the one on the photo - but it died :'(
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I agree wit6h Matt, Thomas
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can anyone help me with an id for my pink one in post 70?
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can anyone help me with an id for my pink one in post 70?
Do you know if it was seed from a wild or cultivated source, Mark?
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Matt, it came as A. acuminatum - it was in the garden collected section of the AGS I think - otherwise I put locations and info on the label - so it could be from anywhere.
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I wonder if it could be A. douglasii (US species) or A. senescens (European & Asia). The leaves of A. douglasii are more scimitar shaped I think. There is a form of the latter with spiral leaves with the syn. A. spirale, but A.senescens appears to quickly form clumps and yours look like individual bulbs. Just a couple of ideas to give you lines of enquiry.
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Matt, A. "spirale" looks promising. They are seedlings, first flowerings, so maybe they will clump up.
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I agree wit6h Matt, Thomas
Thanks Oleg - will relabel my plant.
Can anybody help me with A. beesianum and/or sikkemense.
I can offer crocus seeds in return...
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Thomas, I might be able to help with Allium sikkimense seed - I'm slowly harvesting it now as it ripens - I don't how much I'll get.
But continue to look elsewhere because I may not have very much and I have other donations already promised.
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Thanks for your offer, Mark.
Will keep it in mind and contact you again later. :D
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Can anybody help me with A. beesianum and/or sikkemense.
I have seedlings of both coming along nicely from SRGC Seed Ex seed this year. Of course, they have yet to flower so I can confirm ID, but I'm hopeful! You'll be bound to find them on the listing again this year.
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I usually send seed of Allium sikkimense (confirmed ID, by the way) to the SRGC and NARGS seedexes (although I think I missed last year due to the early September snow and generally late season). All should be on for this season, though, if you can wait.
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It looks like what I grow as allium condensatum
(Attachment Link)
Thanks Wiese
I looked up A. condensatum and the leaf isn't right, from the botanical drawings it has leaves similar to A. obliquum and mine doesn't. They are only sheathed near the bottom. Any other suggestions.
Jackie
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can anyone help me with an id for my pink one in post 70?
Hi Mark
It looks like A. senscens but what do the stamens look like? Does it have 3 stamens that are thicker at the base alternating with 3 that are thin? If all 6 stamens are thin all the way up it could be A. lusitanicum. If the leaves are keeled it could be A. angulosum. Hope that all makes sense!!
Jackie
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I had Allium eriocoleum seed from Kurt Vickery last autumn which germinated in January and grew on well. I had to repot them last week as the pot had been knocked over by one of our red squirrels. To my suprise I saw today that they are growing again! Should I keep them frost free now or will they be all right in my bulb frame?
Erle in Anglesey
enjoying the beginning of autumn in the sun. Lunched outside today.
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I got it as Allium grande which is obviously not. I will be very much obliged if the allium gurus on the Forum will help with ID. It is flowering now
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It is difficult to see from the photo but could it be Allium splendens var. kurilense it does flower at this time of year. What does every one else thing?
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Allium callimischon haemostictum :)
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Allium callimischon haemostictum :)
I reckon this is one of the best marked Allium flowers - and on such a neat plant.
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It is difficult to see from the photo but could it be Allium splendens var. kurilense it does flower at this time of year. What does every one else thing?
Hello Jackie C, please note that there is no such entity as Allium splendens var. kurilense, it's one of those "mythical species" originating from name confusion/corruption that occurred somewhere along the line, now perpetuated via the intranet of misinformation, see my earlier post here:
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5766.msg159595#msg159595 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5766.msg159595#msg159595)
What the identity of Oleg's plant baffles me, not immediately recognizable. Oleg, would it be possible to get a better in-focus photo of the flowers? The current photos are a bit out of focus and over-exposed, so no floral details can be seen clearly.
Thank you.
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Thank you Jackie and Mark. I'll try to take another picture if the flowers are not bitten by frost. You see, winter is coming
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Hello Jackie C, please note that there is no such entity as Allium splendens var. kurilense, it's one of those "mythical species" originating from name confusion/corruption that occurred somewhere along the line, now perpetuated via the intranet of misinformation, see my earlier post here:
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5766.msg159595#msg159595 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5766.msg159595#msg159595)
What the identity of Oleg's plant baffles me, not immediately recognizable. Oleg, would it be possible to get a better in-focus photo of the flowers? The current photos are a bit out of focus and over-exposed, so no floral details can be seen clearly.
Thank you.
Thanks Mark for letting me know you are a walking allium encyclopaedia! So please could you help me with another query?! I have just got some Allium ochroleucum bulbs and it is a new one to me so I was doing some research to work out how to grow it. On plantlist.org it states it is a specific species but the book Flora Europea and the newer European Garden Flora both state it is the same as A. ericetorum. Where can I go to get the most accurate information on allium species and do you know if it is a species in its own right? Thanks
Jackie
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My Allium thunbergii has now started to flower. Picture taken this morning.
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Allium sacculiferum. From seed from Mark McDonough. Thanks Mark!
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These later flowering allium are very useful in the garden, aren't they? Showy too.
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Sorry, Mark. Flowers were bitten by frost. If it susvives winter we will have another try next year.
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Wietse Mellema (wmel on the forum) has made an e-book of photos of 250 different Allium available online -
http://onlinefotoalbum.hema.nl/jouw-fotoalbum-bekijken/208fa32b-5dc3-4004-aec7-372d6a2cfbeb (http://onlinefotoalbum.hema.nl/jouw-fotoalbum-bekijken/208fa32b-5dc3-4004-aec7-372d6a2cfbeb)
Nice to view full screen (volledig sherm) - two pages to view at once - click on any pic to enlarge it, another click to reduce again.
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How bizarre the bulbs of Allium lineare as grown by Ken. They look more like bits of bark or wood than bulbs.
johnw - +12c
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Allium
virgunclae
edit - a typo above - name is Allium virgunculae Maek. & Kitam.
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That's a very nice one, Michael.
How tall does it grow?
cheers
fermi
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Another Allium virgunculae ‘Hirado-Komachi’ in a pot.
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Allium flavum ssp tauricum, the yellow type in the garden and a mixed lot still in the seed-pot!
cheers
fermi
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Fermi,
Your Alliums certainly look good considering the 40 C heat. A. flavum in its various forms does well here despite the summer heat. We do not get 40 C very often in June, your December. It appears that your summer temperatures are a bit warmer than ours. The Sacramento Valley is the hot spot around here, especially the northern end of the Valley. Our Sacramento Valley bungalow is near the river and the delta where the cooling ocean breezes tend to keep temperatures down.
Are you growing any of our California native Alliums? Many of them endure brutal summer heat and drought.
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I love the blue Alliums. I have trouble getting good (or any) flowers from A. caeruleum but this A. sikkimense does alright (although it looks like it was partly eaten by something). There's a big difference between the temperature here (39 - 41 C the last 4 consecutive days) and Central Asia! This was taken before the extreme heat. Not the clearest of photos - it's been too windy every time I try to take a photo. :(
Mark - that Allium callimischon haemostictum is beautiful.
Can someone advise me if it's worth keeping and sowing seeds from Allium stipitatum "Mount Everest"? As it's a hybrid what type of progeny will it produce (if self pollinated)? Most Allium bulbs are expensive here (not that too many are even commercially available) so I'd like to build up some stock from my own seed of the larger and drumstick Alliums.
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Jon,
I do not have much experience growing many of the ornamental Alliums, however as a farmer I have plenty of experience growing and saving seed of regular eating Alliums (Onions and leeks, etc.).
The standard Alliums bought at a super market generally suffer terribly from inbred depression, especially if selfed! Even when breeding or creating hybrid onions, using inbreeding techniques, 3-5 plants are grown together with a lettuce bag over the flowering heads to create inbred lines.
I have no idea how it works with the ornamental species. Maybe male sterile lines are also used to create hybrid seed varieties. I just do not know how it is done with the ornamental types. Maybe someone can enlighten me as to their susceptibility to inbred depression and their breeding characteristics (or maybe these are trade secretes?).
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Thanks Robert for your response. I must admit I don't know too much about inbred depression. I'm glad you brought it to my attention.
Just out of interest, would you still classify 3 - 4 allium flowers cross pollinated with one another that have all originated from the same bulb (via bubils or bulblets) as "selfed", since they're clones of the original bulb?
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Thanks Robert for your response. I must admit I don't know too much about inbred depression. I'm glad you brought it to my attention.
Just out of interest, would you still classify 3 - 4 allium flowers cross pollinated with one another that have all originated from the same bulb (via bubils or bulblets) as "selfed", since they're clones of the original bulb?
Jon,
If the plants are all the same clone, then absolutely yes they are selfed.
I have very little experience with the ornamental Alliums, however as I start to work with them I will definitely be out breeding them to maintain the species and with the largest population I can get away with. I generally consider inbreeding as a breeding tool and not a method of maintaining a species (or variety) from seed. I understand that inbreeders, such as modern non-hybrid tomatoes, can be maintained by selfing generation after generation (I do this). However, my experience has been that when I out breed to parallel varietal lines I end up with a much stronger plants and still maintain an acceptable degree of uniformity.
By the way, you might get interesting results from selfing an F1 hybrid. Personally I would grow them on and see what you get. Depending on what type of F1 hybrid it is, there may be very little inbred depression - fatals, detrimentals expressing themselves. It is very likely you will get a wide variety of different phenotypes. You will never know if you never try. :)
Good luck with everything. I sounds fun and interesting to me.