Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Pleione and Orchidaceae => Topic started by: Corrado & Rina on May 01, 2015, 03:11:59 PM
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Dear all,
Has anyone tried to grow Cypripedium in hydroleca or other clay granules?
Regards
Corrado
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If you do a search of Hydoleca from the search button, fourth from the left in the row of "butttons" near the top of this page - just under your profile picture, you will find references to mentions of growing in this medium.
Several just refer to the use of hydroleca as a top-dressing for the posts. You can search for clay granules too and there are a few results for that too.
There doesn't seem to be much in depth discussion.
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If you do a search of Hydoleca from the search button, fourth from the left in the row of "butttons" near the top of this page - just under your profile picture, you will find references to mentions of growing in this medium.
Several just refer to the use of hydroleca as a top-dressing for the posts. You can search for clay granules too and there are a few results for that too.
There doesn't seem to be much in depth discussion.
Ciao Maggie,
Yes, I did some research on the forum, but I only found information about people using it for top dressing. I am more interested in using it as main medium (potentially on using it as 100% medium), not just for top dressing.
Regards
Corrado
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Wonder why no-one seems to be doing that? :-\
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Isn't the grain size too large? Lots of people use moler clay cat litter, if you can find that for sale.
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I've not heard of anyone trying this but it's possible that it could work with large pots and plenty of watering,
David
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Isn't the grain size too large? Lots of people use moler clay cat litter, if you can find that for sale.
I think they come in different grades and sizes. I thought moler clay tended to deteriorate quickly. Is that not the case?
Best,
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Moler clay never showed any signs of deteriorating over the 4-5 years (and many freeze-thaw cycles down to -20C) I used it, it's burnt clay, so they're fairly solid. Akadama does deteriorate, maybe your source got them mixed up?
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Can you still get Seramis®?
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Can you still get Seramis®?
Hi Anthony!
Did you ever try it? is it any good?
Regards
Corrado
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Seramis £3.45 for three litres. Might work, but I am sure that I have heard people mention problems with using it. Possibly pH related?
Perlite £7.55 for one hundred litres. Does work.
Why complicate things? Surely Cypripediums are too expensive to be experimenting with.
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Seramis £3.45 for three litres. Might work, but I am sure that I have heard people mention problems with using it. Possibly pH related?
Perlite £7.55 for one hundred litres. Does work.
Why complicate things? Surely Cypripediums are too expensive to be experimenting with.
My thoughts exactly!
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Seramis £3.45 for three litres. Might work, but I am sure that I have heard people mention problems with using it. Possibly pH related?
Perlite £7.55 for one hundred litres. Does work.
Why complicate things? Surely Cypripediums are too expensive to be experimenting with.
I had a lot of problems with perlite and lost few plants (including a very precious franchetii) because perlite seemed to store too much moisture and to deteriorate over time. I must not be the only one, because I spoke to Jeff of Laneside and he is now using pumice.<- I discovered that this was in fact incorrect and I had misunderstood: Jeff uses a mix with 5% to 10% fine bark and the rest is equal parts of perlite and pumice!!!!
I would like to find an alternative medium that I can use practically pure, using the setting proposed by Cribb / Weinart (http://www.kew.org/discover/news/hardy-cypripedium-book-month, (http://www.kew.org/discover/news/hardy-cypripedium-book-month,) last section on cultivation in pots).
I really do not want to experiment, and that is the reason why I am asking what alternative media you have been using. I had heard of people using the following: clay granules, pumice, moler clay, akadama, coconut coir (including a segawae which I had bought) and even loam.
With my micro climatic conditions I need something that stores humidity and nutrients but not too much and has some weight so that pots do not topple, does not deteriorate with temperature variations and that can be used pure. I would also like it to be produced through a sustainable and not hazardous process.
Regards
Corrado
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I remember your first post back in 2013 and thought then that I would have started with some "inexpensive" hybrids rather than going in at the deep end with species. My fear is that you might be about to make the same mistake again. I also seem to remember you having slug issues. I think that described them as the slugs from Hell? This will have weakened your plants.
I am surprised that your perlite had deteriorated so quickly. I find it fine for at least four years.
I really would stick with the perlite. You can add ballast to your pots by plunging the plastic pot into a terracotta one. I am on the edge of the fens and believe me , it blows every single day, it's just a question of from which direction. All my plants are in terracotta, many with plastic inside, as otherwise they spend too much time on their sides.
Good luck with whatever you choose, Cyps are so wonderful it is worth the effort.
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Seramis £3.45 for three litres. Might work, but I am sure that I have heard people mention problems with using it. Possibly pH related?
Perlite £7.55 for one hundred litres. Does work.
Why complicate things? Surely Cypripediums are too expensive to be experimenting with.
Where do you find perlite at £7.75 x 100l??
Regards
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[quon.te author=Anthony Darby link=topic=13122.msg332373#msg332373 date=1430558697]
Can you still get Seramis®?
[/quote]
Dear Anthony,
I was going through your old posts and discovered you were successfully growing Cypripedium in cat litter. Is that correct? Would that be the same as molar clay? (I have access to some cheap molar clay).
Regards
Corrado
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Yes, although not for very long, as I had a good supply of Seramis®.
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Where do you find perlite at £7.75 x 100l??
Regards
I used to be able to go up to Gainsborough and buy it direct from Sinclair's but they have now moved to Ellesmere Port so that is good news for those in the North West. I bought four huge bags before they moved and still have plenty left.
But I need not have bothered as I buy my Melcourt bark from a local Agricultural supplier who tells me he will still do me a 100 litre bag for well less than a tenner. Perhaps I am just lucky, living in the middle of an agricultural area, (there has to be a plus side to all the tractors and a constant aroma of leeks, cabbages and chicken poop) but I would advise bypassing the hydroponics shops, garden centres etc and find their suppliers. The economy is such that they are now happy to deal with the public. But even if you have to pay premium prices perlite is still far cheaper than seramis and far easier to get hold of.
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Steve are you growing your Cyps in 100% perlite?
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I agree with Steve about deterioration in perlite. I don't see it even after five years.
However if you are in a wetter part of the country then maybe it could keep the plants too wet.
Neil tells us that it can hold 225 mls of water per litre.
This is a fifth to a quarter by volume in each pot when fully saturated.
One of the issues with alternatives is the cost. Super coarse perlite is so cheap.
Another possibility would be to use a more expensive and freer draining mix at the surface where the rhizome sits and cheaper perlite in the rest of the pot. This should reduce the risk of rot where it tends to happen.
On another note - losing plants is all part of growing cyps. I don't think I have ever gone a year without losing something, this winter I have lost four plants, all species.
Hybrids are more robust and I lose fewer of them. If you just grow species then you must expect losses every year whatever you grow them in.
David
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David,
Thank you for your honesty with regards to plant losses. Makes me feel so much better!
We have just had some much needed rain here, it's filled a couple of water butts, but with the rain comes the slugs. A lumberjack has been at work, felling a couple of good shoots. I have seen people say that slugs don't cause their cyps any problems. Either they have no Cyps or no slugs!
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Steve
I have few problems with slugs.
A couple of blue pellets into each pot seems to do the trick in the spring.
Maybe they don't like to climb. Most of my pots are on staging.
Maybe they do not like the hydroleca that acts as a mulch in each pot.
Maybe it is because we are in a drier part of the country.
As the shoots toughen up as they age they definitely become less palatable to slugs.
David
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I think the staging might be the answer. Mine are mostly on the ground. Blue pellets seem to be punishment rather than prevention for me!
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I noticed in the pet shop today that the "pink" cat litter had a rival own brand product alongside at £10 for 2 x 20 litres. The pink is still £10 for 30 litres. The cheaper felt smaller particle size through the packaging so stuck with the pink.
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Steve,
I see that you mention that you buy your Melcourt Bark from a local agricultural supplier. Can I ask how you located them?
I have been trying to source Melcourt Propagating Bark here in the the Northeast (ideally Tyneside area) , but Melcourt's website lists or 'local' supplier (East Riding Horticulture) as somewhere southeast of York. I had hoped to call there yesterday as I was vaguely in the area, but having phoned them last week found that they do not open on Saturday. It would be useful to be able to collect the bark rather than paying delivery charges for a pallet load that only had 3-4 bags on it!
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Steve,
I see that you mention that you buy your Melcourt Bark from a local agricultural supplier. Can I ask how you located them?
I have been trying to source Melcourt Propagating Bark here in the the Northeast (ideally Tyneside area) , but Melcourt's website lists or 'local' supplier (East Riding Horticulture) as somewhere southeast of York. I had hoped to call there yesterday as I was vaguely in the area, but having phoned them last week found that they do not open on Saturday. It would be useful to be able to collect the bark rather than paying delivery charges for a pallet load that only had 3-4 bags on it!
Can't really help you Peter. I was lucky, the Melcourt website listed a supplier just down the road. Sorry!
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Worth a try, thanks anyway.
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Yes, although not for very long, as I had a good supply of Seramis®.
Where did you get Seramis from? I do not seems to be able to get it.
Best,
Corrado
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I agree with Steve about deterioration in perlite. I don't see it even after five years.
However if you are in a wetter part of the country then maybe it could keep the plants too wet.
Neil tells us that it can hold 225 mls of water per litre.
This is a fifth to a quarter by volume in each pot when fully saturated.
David
This is exactly the problem. I put a perlite potted plant under glass cover last October. It was never watered. When it came out at the end of March it was still drenched and of course everything in it had rotten. Of course, other plants which were in different media did not experience the problem and were much drier. Whilst I agree that perlite may be cheap a decent, multishoot C. segawae is worth well above £100 mark, let alone the fact it is critically endangered. If seramis is 10l at £15 it is still reasonable if it does ensure safe results.
Best,
Corrado
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Steve,
I see that you mention that you buy your Melcourt Bark from a local agricultural supplier. Can I ask how you located them?
I have been trying to source Melcourt Propagating Bark here in the the Northeast (ideally Tyneside area) , but Melcourt's website lists or 'local' supplier (East Riding Horticulture) as somewhere southeast of York. I had hoped to call there yesterday as I was vaguely in the area, but having phoned them last week found that they do not open on Saturday. It would be useful to be able to collect the bark rather than paying delivery charges for a pallet load that only had 3-4 bags on it!
Dear Steve,
I have a trade account with them and I buy Melcourt bark in reasonably large quantities. I have a shipment coming this week, if you need some let me know tonight, I may still be on time in changing the order.
The caveat is that you will have to pick it up in York, or you will have to wait for me to come up your way. :) If you drop me a PM I send you some prices (I do not have them with me I need to go home and check).
Regards
Corrado
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The fact that Cypripedium segawai is a rare species in its home in Taiwan really does not come into this equation as it is being mass produced on the continent and sold by just about every nursery involved in selling Cypripediums. I suspect the expensive price tag is at least partly because it is a difficult plant to grow, not according to me, but according to the Frosch website, which makes me even more convinced that your decision to start with species, and by the sound of it some of the more difficult ones, rather than learning the ropes on hybrids is the root of your problems.
How did the perlite get so sodden last October? I doubt that York's climate is so very different to my own, but if it is exceptionally wet then the thing about pots is that they can be put somewhere sheltered. By Lincolnshire standards we have had a monsoon overnight, water butts are full and overflowing, but I doubt that the perlite in any of my pots could be described as sodden because it is so free draining and because all stand in the shelter of the house. I have no reason to doubt Neil's figure of 225 mls of water per litre but to achieve this figure I suspect that I would have to put the perlite in a jug and leave it some time to fully absorb the water. This should not be happening in a plant pot. When I water my plants it seems as if the water is pouring out of the bottom of the pots as fast as I put it in. To get it anywhere near sodden I would have to block all the holes in the base.
My advice is to you is the same as I'd give to anyone new to Cypripediums or struggling with them, go buy an Ulla Silkens or a Hank Small.
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To get perlite that saturated it needs to stand in the water. Even if it is saturated it will still have air spaces between the pieces of perlite. You can stand a pot of perlite in water and it will not get waterlogged
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Apologies but I need to correct what previously said: Jeff at Laneside is using a compost with 5% to 10% fine bark and the rest is equal parts of perlite and pumice. So, perlite is still in the mix! I had misunderstood, my mistake.
Regards
Corrado
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Where did you get Seramis from? I do not seems to be able to get it.
Best,
Corrado
I bought it in garden centres, which went through a Seramis phase. I then gradually cleaned out all the stocks I could find as it very quickly went out of fashion. Managed to convince a friend that the stuff was mined in a place called Hydroponic in north west Scotland. ;D
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I agree with Steve.
It takes a bit of time to become experienced at growing cyps.
The easiest species is definitely reginae.
If you class it as a species then the forms of x ventricosum are straight forward and quick.
The rest can be miffy or Ok but you can lose them for no apparent reason.
The most difficult are the spotty leaved types - only for those that like to throw their money away.
I would try any of the easily available hybrids first.
David
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The most difficult are the spotty leaved types - only for those that like to throw their money away.
I have four of these critters. Not lost one yet, but two seem to be shrinking and I have never seen a flower!
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With my (very) limited experience I can only say that my calceolous in cat litter (clay granules) isn't dead yet ::)
(http://hud357.homenet.org/orch/cypc.jpg)