Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: Tim Harberd on February 20, 2015, 08:55:58 AM
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Hi Everyone,
I was intrigued by Tim’s comment, in the thread ‘eBay offers‘, questioning who would be without Diggory, Wasp & Lapwing… So I revisited the ‘Favourite Snowdrops’ thread (last post 13th Feb 2014)
Only one of those three cultivars (Diggory) features on that list of 25. ((Which was based on an Avon survey))
Has the world really moved on that much in twelve months?
Thinking a bit further.. Prior to that we last discussed this on the thread ‘Top of the drops’ (last post 8th April 2010) which was based on a Plantsman survey.. Non of the above three feature on that..
I’m guessing that we (the Galanthus forum regulars) are a bit more numerous than we were back in 2010... So we could come up with our own reasonably balanced list… if enough people took part.
Is there an appetite for constructing a Forum Top Ten?
First of all we’d need to frame the parameters… On what basis should cultivars be nominated??
Tim DH
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Hi Tim are you just limiting this just to cultivars? There are a few of the species I wouldn't be without.
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John Good raised this same question on the AGS Forum suggesting a list of the 'top' hundred - probably more realistic considering the individual nature of all snowdrops and those who collect them. In answer to him I thought that this would only work if enough different gardeners compiled lists of, say, their top ten or twenty, and a gradual consensus emerged from this. As John said there are bound to be a relatively small number of really popular snowdrops that are good doers all over (on average), and then a whole lot more favourites which are likely to keep changing quite quickly. Given the nature of collectors though and the rate at which snowdrops appear this could be both fun and also, as F.H. Fisher commented about Alpine Shows a long time ago, something of an Irish fight ;). John and I started this with a couple of lists on the AGS Discussion pages (see the North Wales Diary) so it would be interesting to see what other people come up with, but in addition more of the reasons why.
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Maybe count out rarities and new this year snowdrops
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Maybe count out rarities and new this year snowdrops
I disagree there Mark, if they are your favourites they should be in, having said that most of my favourites are now 'older' varieties but one stands out this year ;D
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... something of an Irish fight ;)...
Can't quite work this one out Tim :-\
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Ha, Ashley - you have to read back through the AGS Bulletins. F.H Fisher was actually trying to stimulate more involvement and interaction amongst growers bringing plants along to AGS Shows (this was way back in the 1930's), and invoked the idea of a bit more passion and verve - hence an 'Irish fight' (not political! just a little bit of fisticuffs - maybe debate). Reminds me a little of Bernard Shaw's book 'Cashel Byron's Profession'. Hope that clarifies :)
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Thanks Tim. Clearer now ;)
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Hi Ashley I wonded if he was thinking of the quiet man movie, the fight between john Wayne and victor mcclaglan(I think I've spelt his name right). :)
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For those who don't view the AGS Discussion pages here is the discussion between John Good and myself and our lists of top snowdrops:
The top 100
If somebody were sufficiently willing and knowledgeable I think it would be very useful to have a descriptive, illustrated list of the 'Top 100 Snowdrops'. I hasten to say that I have insufficient knowledge! If nothing else this could act as a (probably very active) useful stimulus to discussion about the merits of particular species, hybrids and cultivars so that information on local favourites, best 'dooers' in particular soils and situations could be accumulated in one place. I suspect we could all name 30 or so that would go into the top 100, but the other 70 could create all sorts of fun!!
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'There was an attempt to do this on the SRGC Forum but the only way I could see it working would be to collate an overall list from, say, the best ten or twenty from a sufficient number of different gardeners, trying to use a reasonably objective assessment of garden value over time (effectively what the AGM does but in the narrower sphere of this one genus). I expect there would be pretty good agreement over the first thirty or so, and then a kind of expansion out into the more recent and distinctive cultivars which could be really interesting and useful.
So to start, if anyone wants to join in, I would nominate the following from our garden (in no special order):
'Armine'
'Gerard Parker'
'Augustus'
'Wendy's Gold'
'Hippolyta'
'Galatea'
'Anglesey Abbey'
'The Linns'
'Mrs Thompson'
'Ransom's Dwarf'
These are plants that have all done well over time and are quite distinct from each other. But then I could easily add another group that might not be such good doers, or we haven't grown for long, but stand out in some way, such as 'Kite' and 'Lapwing' and 'Wasp' and 'Percy Picton' and 'Rev. Hailstone' - and these would be more likely to change from year to year. This would be a good exercise if enough different gardeners participated. (How would this same process apply to a different group of plants such as saxifrages I wonder, or perhaps a genus such as Fritillaria when applied to the garden rather than alpine house? Lots of people would have views I'm sure, but there would be a big difference between the garden and more controlled growing conditions).
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Right, we're off!! Going along with Tim's suggestion my first ten are:
'Straffan'
'S. Arnott'
'Magnet'
'John Gray'
'Merlin'
'Jacquenetta'
'Augustus'
'Sophie North'
'Diggory'
'Warei'
Of course, it was touch and go deciding what to include, and there are a number of others that could have made the list, but all these grow well here in N. Wales, increase freely, and are distinct.
Forgot to include G. Ikariae subspecies. Ikariae which should definitely be in there, but which to drop out?
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Hi Folks,
This thread has been read 250 times in 24hrs…. Which (even allowing for repeat visits by some people) would suggest there is enough interest in the idea for it to work…. If only it can be framed in a way which encourages people to take part.
I’ve seen this exercise attempted before where growers have been asked to name their top three… a ridiculous suggestion to anyone who grows hundreds! Equally asking for a top ten might make growers, who have less than twenty, feel unqualified to contribute.
So I would suggest that we don’t set a number. Anyone can name up to a fifth of the number of cultivars they grow… Then everyone can take part. To my mind, the information gathered from five people who grow twenty will have comparable value to the information from one person who grows a hundred. If anyone wants to name less than a fifth (I would!) then that’s fine too.
I agree with Mark, about not being interested in rarities.. However I don’t think we need a rule about that, because if enough people take part.. Commenting only on drops they actually grow.. Then rarities will automatically get washed out of the top of the list.
I also agree with Mark, about not being interested in ‘new this year’ drops, because I think you need at least one years experience of growing a plant before you can really comment on it.
Thinking about John’s question, I’ve no objection to naming species, but unless it’s a named cultivar of the species I suspect it too will get washed out of the top of the list… Let’s see!!
Tim DH
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I think this question is a bit like asking which of your children is your favourite. However my top two are:
'Peter Gatehouse', one of the first snowdrops I bought, it has always performed well for me. I t flowers reliably in November and you can see a hint of the green mark on the inner petals even when the petals are tight closed.
'Diggory', conversely, is one of those snowdrops I have failed with. So when I do see a good clump of it, it retains its wow factor. I find the puckered Chinese-lantern petals really striking.
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Hi Alan,
Thanks for starting the ball rolling...
No one has yet offered an opinion on the usefulness(or otherwise) of asking growers to nominate no more than one in five of the cultivars they grow......
Hi Tim,
If you don't wish to modify the 1:5 rule.... Do you want to edit, or expand the list of ten you posted earlier. Also, do you think John Good would want to edit/expand his list? Or can we use both lists as they are??
Tim DH
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Hi Tim - I think use both mine and John's lists as they are, and follow your suggestion in general, or just pick out one or two as Alan has done: i.e. no particular rules, just responses. The essence of doing this is having enough contributions that are effectively independent of one another because, as you say, there will be people growing 500 snowdrops and others just 5 or 10, but the role they play in different gardens and which really stand out will be the 'same' (i.e. individual) for everyone, the numbers will just be different! I think we would need a pretty good number of gardeners to chip in (no pun intended!) if some sort of pattern is really to emerge, but also an idea of why certain plants are chosen. Apropos Alan's comment - generally none of us have upwards of a hundred children but with snowdrops I think we do tend to love them all the same in a way, but it's good when children have their own personality. From this it should be possible to make a (changing) list of a hundred or so snowdrops that may throw up some surprises and maybe regional differences.
(I don't think this is likely to change Galanthomania especially, but tame a little of its anarchy ;))
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I would be interested to know:
1. Who is the audience for the eventual list and what do we expect they will do with the list? Do we anticipate it will influence them to do or not do something and if so what?
2. Do we have a definitive list of criteria for evaluation? I agree with Brian, why would we exclude snowdrops obtained less than a year previously? If aesthetics are a factor, they cannot be time limited.
3, How will snowdrops from other countries be handled, which almost by definition will be less common as they are more difficult to source?
I am not at all sure as to the value of the exercise.
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I would be interested to know:
1. Who is the audience for the eventual list and what do we expect they will do with the list? Do we anticipate it will influence them to do or not do something and if so what?
2. Do we have a definitive list of criteria for evaluation? I agree with Brian, why would we exclude snowdrops obtained less than a year previously? If aesthetics are a factor, they cannot be time limited.
3, How will snowdrops from other countries be handled, which almost by definition will be less common as they are more difficult to source?
I am not at all sure as to the value of the exercise.
I'm part of the audience (maybe all of it :o). I probably triggered this thread with a challenging question on another thread: 'can forum members produce a list of 10 snowdrops (6 for the garden and 4 for pot culture), nothing rare, expensive or difficult to obtain'. The number was, of necessity, arbitrary.
To me 'garden worthy' is all about drift and effect. They need to be species that establish readily and multiply well. By definition, this rules out recently introduced species. I live in an area with very challenging weather conditions but it will be up to me to assess that aspect of their suitability. Pot culture is all about form, foliage to flower balance and flower detail that warrants close inspection.
The criteria need to be simple. I don't see any reason to expand on my earlier thoughts: 1. Not rare. 2. Not expensive. 3. Readily obtainable.
There's no need to put a constraint on how many items folk submit (although I don't see the point in submitting dozens).
I do see a dichotomy here as my original request was personal whereas this thread is more a 'Top of the Drops' chart.
If you follow my thinking, you may well find many more members growing Galanthus who are current bemused by the plethora of subspecies, forms, varieties, etc.
Chris
PS - Apologies if I've hijacked this thread but I see more merit in this direction.
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John Richards talks about the snowdrops at Kew in the latest entry in his Northumberland AGS diary: http://www.alpinegardensociety.net/diaries/Northumberland/+February+/650/ (http://www.alpinegardensociety.net/diaries/Northumberland/+February+/650/)
Interestingly, his following statement might add a geographical dimension (garden worthiness in the north vs. south) to this thread:
A footnote concerning Kew snowdrops. A wide variety is grown there, mostly very well, and most are well labelled (not all: what is the superb snowdrop grown in quantity around the Orangery? I could find no label). However, I was intrigued to find poor miffy specimens of two snowdrops which are amongst the very best here in the far north of England, 'Straffan' (originating in northern Ireland) and 'S. Arnott' (originating in south-west Scotland). This tended to confirm my theory that snowdrops which were selected in the north tend to thrive better in the north, and vice-versa. It appears that these northerners dislike Kew's hot dry climate.
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For my choices I'll put forward:
'S.Arnott' for creating large drifts in the garden - this plant has great presence and makes a real impact in large numbers, and it grows well here with me.
'Hippolyta' for closer appreciation - this is a lovely neat double, with shorter stature it could be used in the garden, but you can get up close and linger longer with this beauty if it is under cover, I find she's also a robust grower.
Another choice for drifts in the garden (especially in the Hebrides) will be the 'bog-standard' G. nivalis - robust, good-doer, vigorous and impressive in large swathes (which would not be expensive to create). A neighbour has a huge number in her garden, and they are a great sight - perhaps the most extensive snowdrop patch in the Outer Hebrides?
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Hi Matt
A nice diary and a thoughtful comment on geographical planting. I will add S. Arnott to my list.
... 'bog-standard' G. nivalis -
Probably not a pun but it appealed to my distorted sense of humour. ;D ;D
Chris
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I would agree with Chris' criteria in the sense that they place garden value and worth to the fore. It is rather exciting and fascinating to see the immense diversity of snowdrops shown on the Forum (and actually I am pretty keen on growing some of these!) but very few contributors describe their experiences of growing the plants in more detail and that must be valuable to know. There probably is a dichotomy between that individual collecting instinct and all the friendships that arise from this at snowdrop events etc. and the idea of making a list like this. It may not have any value as an exercise but that can only be determined by the absence or presence of contributions. (I think John may have started this on the AGS site for the very reason that so few contribute their gardening experiences there - obviously a tremendous amount more goes on here but a newcomer looking in might find it a little esoteric :-\). Hope there will be more to come...
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I will have a good think and come up with a list
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I think Hagen should do the list. :)...I'm very sure he has 100 jaw dropping plants to put on it. ;D.
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I have so short experience about any cultivars so I would be wiser after five years, but of the ones which I have had for more than two years, two stand out in the way that they have multiplied well in my garden and are also quite big.
'S.Arnott' and 'Viridapice'.
(I've had also 'Merlin' for four years but from the original one bulb I now have two, so I'm not very satisfied with it).
'Diggory' has only flowered once so far, but that would be one of my favourites, too, because of the flower and it seems to have doubled from last year.
Another of my favourites is this nameless G.plicatus which I had bought from Augis Bulbs in 2011, and it has also multiplied well and I like the look of it.
Picture is from last year, it is now coming up through snow.
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Andy Byfield names a top ten in this article : http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/gardening-blog/2015/feb/27/snowdrops-ten-of-the-best (http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/gardening-blog/2015/feb/27/snowdrops-ten-of-the-best)
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That's a rather good and different top ten for the connoisseur - not sure how many might be truly garden tried and tested but the nice thing is to have the personal information about growing them.
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That's a rather good and different top ten for the connoisseur - not sure how many might be truly garden tried and tested but the nice thing is to have the personal information about growing them.
I think most of them are well tested now in the garden, it includes my favourite 'Trimmer' and the vigorous 'Green Tear'
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Well!
I don’t think we’ll come up with any collatable data (a Top Ten) because we haven’t agreed any parameters.
No problem… I’m quite happy with the general chat. When I first got interested in snowdrops the only info. I had was growers catalogues, which are, quite understandably, written to sell what the vendor has available….. One that was sold to me along the lines of “a must have drop in any collection” has now been completely removed from the garden, having tried it in a number of places.
Anyway… I’d like to recommend Mrs Macnamara, which I grow in four places. She does well in all of them, more than doubling each year. I principally grow snowdrops as a cut flower, so the flower size (35mm petals) and height (27cms) is of value to me, as is the slight fragrance. She is an early flowerer (around Christmas). In fact it is this feature I bought her for, the other attributes, described above, were a surprise! (The grey leaf colour, mentioned in catalogues, is of no value to me, but I can confirm it.)
If anyone would like to swap a MrsM for a genuine Sam Arnott drop me a PM. I’ve bought it twice now, and neither cultivar matches the catalogue descriptions!!!!!
Tim DH
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S Arnott, nivalis, Merlin , Wendy's gold, Galatea , walrus , blewbury tart, mrs MacNamara , Diggory , gracilis , Augustus , trumps , lady elphinstone , Hippolyta , Worronowii
Did 15
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First few were easy, long been my favourites :)
Peardrop
Washfield Colesbourne
Diggory
Mighty Atom
Blewbury Tart
Kildare
Curly
Ketton
Primrose Warburg
Lapwing
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It actually wasn't very hard to make the list once I thought about it. My favorites are the varieties that are both beautiful, for one reason or another, and easy to grow. No particular order:
Lady Beatrix Stanley
Magnet
nivalis
Viridapice
Ophelia
Wendy's Gold
Primrose Warburg
woronowii
Potter's Prelude
Blewbury Tart
The original list also contained Ballerina, Godfrey Owen, Kite, Diggory, and Wasp, but I decided to stick with ten. I have a really good form of Viridapice. If mine looked like some of the photos I have seen, I probably wouldn't include it. I also have a very good Ophelia compared to others I have seen. And from what I have read who knows if it is Ophelia, but I would include a Greatorex double in my top ten and Ophelia is my best.
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You'll have to excuse a couple that are not easily obtainable, but I looked at it as my desert island list, which ones would I be devestated if they were washed away..in no particular order (and I can't count)
Lapwing
Priscilla Bacon
Wasp
South Hayes
S. Arnott
Acton Pigot No 3
Philippe André Meyer
Swanton
Miss Wilmott
Richard Blakeway-Phillips
Pearl Drops (yes I do mean that and not Peardrop)
Gloucester Old Spot
Many of the list chosen because they look have good stature in a clump and are quite individual. I had to reduce the list from a much bigger one and it was difficult to cut so many out.