Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: melager on January 16, 2015, 09:44:44 AM
-
I need some more help with germination methods please, got some seed recently of primula and rhododendrons and have sown them on top of the surface, and then placed the pot in a plastic bag, but the seed is going mouldy, I have not done seeds by this method before, what am I doing wrong and has anyone got a better method for growing primula's and rhododendron from seed.
thanks Mel
-
Mel, I have made a reply with some useful sites to information to your question about Calochortus:
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12674.msg321595#msg321595 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12674.msg321595#msg321595)
I know that many use plastic bags to germination seeds, and use plastic bags to cover pots with seedlings - and those who use such methods are best placed to discuss that - but I will tell you what we do here - and we have had considerable success over many years in growing fine plants of many kinds, both for the garden and for exhibition in pots at shows. We use a very simple mixture for the pots - by volume, 2 parts coarse "sharp" sand, 2 parts humus, 1 part 6 to 8mm grit.
We sow the seed - for primulas and rhododendron seed that would be on the surface of the mix and then cover with a layer of grit. we stand the pots outside on sand in a semi-shaded area and leave them alone.
We used to sow rhododendron seed on sphagnum moss - but there is added work to keep the birds out and keep the moss from growing and we find it is not necessary to do that. For things like calochortus we would take the pots under cover when the seedlings start to grow and we do that with most bulb seedlings but other plants seem to manage well enough outside. Of course, this is in North East Scotland - we must all make allowances for our local conditions.
In this week's Bulb Log you will find Ian's description of his treatment of erythronium seed- and the potting mix used etc - this is pretty much standard for all we grow so it may be of help to you :
http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2015Jan141421233053BULB_LOG_0215.pdf (http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2015Jan141421233053BULB_LOG_0215.pdf)
Ian has been writing a weekly Bulb Log since 2003 and there is a lot of info there - not all about bulbs!
All issues of the Bulb Log are available here : http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/index.php?log=bulb (http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/index.php?log=bulb) and there is an index : http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/index.pdf (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/index.pdf)
Growing from seed is great fun and is - for sure - worth persevering with!
-
I grow all my Primula's (and other seeds) in pure vermiculite. No problems with moulding when the seed is free of chaff.
See http://www.seedsite.eu/articles/sowing (http://www.seedsite.eu/articles/sowing)
-
Hi Maggi and Jonna
Thanks you so much for that, I am going to try both suggestions and very keen to try the vermiculite in a containor.
will let you know if I have success
Mel
-
A lot of Rhododendron seeds are empty or non-viable and when exposed to warm and moist conditions easily go mouldy. Plus:most Rhododendron seed usually has some chaff which also gets mouldy really quick when sown.
Don't know if sowing on vermiculite will work when it comes to Rhododendron seed. I surface sow Rhododendron seed on peat moss and have good results. I cover the pot with plastic and keep it fairly warm (room temperature). After germination I remove the plastic cover and place the pot somewhat cooler (15-18 degrees C.) Growth in the first year is usually slow.
-
since it can be the chaff that goes mouldy, how do I get rid of the chaff
thanks Mel
-
It's seeds from me? Getting the leftover chaff out is almost impossible, trust me, I've spent hours trying... With Primula seeds I'd just cover with a thin layer of sand, seemed to work perfectly back in Norway. Also, make sure the bags over the pots stay somewhat open, you want humidity, but not too much of it. Air circulation helps too, so a cold frame would be better than just using bags.
-
If it is just the chaff going mouldy I won't worry. It is very unusual for good seed to go mouldy. It is a different type of rot that affects seed. They go soft rather than mouldy. I just leave chaff,it soon disappears and the seed grow through it. Susan
-
I have no experience with Rhododendron seeds, but I do have experience with Primula seeds and a lot of other seeds It's not always possible, but simply gently blowing while the seeds are on a plate, will remove a lot of chaff of a lot of very small seeds. If you are not experienced with it, do it on a very clean surface, so if you blow too hard, you will still have the seeds.
And using all kind of sieves will help you to get rid of a lot of chaff too.
-
Thanks very much all, This was very fine seed in fact tiny also bought in and it seemed very clean to me, I couldn't have got it cleaner,
I so appreciate the help
Mel
-
If it is just the chaff going mouldy I won't worry. It is very unusual for good seed to go mouldy. It is a different type of rot that affects seed. They go soft rather than mouldy. I just leave chaff,it soon disappears and the seed grow through it. Susan
Thanks Susan
I am sure it is good seed so thanks for the advise,
Mel
-
I surface sow Rhododendron seed on peat moss and have good results. I cover the pot with plastic and keep it fairly warm (room temperature). After germination I remove the plastic cover and place the pot somewhat cooler (15-18 degrees C.) Growth in the first year is usually slow.
I do the same way, and agree that vermiculite is not good with rhododendron. Rhododendrons need acid environment. I keep the seed pots covered with plastic for until when it is time to prick them out, and only water underneath.
-
I do the same way, and agree that vermiculite is not good with rhododendron. Rhododendrons need acid environment. I keep the seed pots covered with plastic for until when it is time to prick them out, and only water underneath.
Thanks Leena I will try this way, thank you for help
-
Melager, can you provide more information about your growing conditions? How much light? What temperature? What is your mix? Can you take a photo?
If seeds get moldy, it usually means they are dead. If good seeds are mixed with dead seeds and chaff, the dead stuff will rot, but you will eventually get seedlings.
Here is a pot of Phyllodoce, a small plant related to Rhodies.
[attach=1]
The mix is peat/perlite/soil. Temperature is around 15C. They are growing under ordinary fluorescent lights. There is moss and mold growing on the surface, but the plants are doing fine. This happens all the time in nature also. Here is a closeup:
[attach=2]
I filled the pot with mix, then sprinkled a little peat moss on top, then sowed the tiny seeds into the peat moss, then sprayed with a fine mist of water.
You should not fertilize until the plants have developed one or two true leaves. I find that fertilizer causes problems with damping off if the plants are very young. Fertilizer also speeds up the growth of moss.
-
Have to say I have seen perfectly good rhodo seeds go mouldy after sowing and sprout well later. It is is usually those that don't sprout within the first 21 days.
johnw
-
Melager, can you provide more information about your growing conditions? How much light? What temperature? What is your mix? Can you take a photo?
If seeds get moldy, it usually means they are dead. If good seeds are mixed with dead seeds and chaff, the dead stuff will rot, but you will eventually get seedlings.
Here is a pot of Phyllodoce, a small plant related to Rhodies.
(Attachment Link)
The mix is peat/perlite/soil. Temperature is around 15C. They are growing under ordinary fluorescent lights. There is moss and mold growing on the surface, but the plants are doing fine. This happens all the time in nature also. Here is a closeup:
(Attachment Link)
I filled the pot with mix, then sprinkled a little peat moss on top, then sowed the tiny seeds into the peat moss, then sprayed with a fine mist of water.
You should not fertilize until the plants have developed one or two true leaves. I find that fertilizer causes problems with damping off if the plants are very young. Fertilizer also speeds up the growth of moss.
Hi Gene thanks for telling me how you grow, I am hopless at putting photoes up, but I have the pots in Bags which is new to me not peat, its a standard bark mix here in New Zealand so will change to your mix, temp is about 15c, light is not direct sun but near a window, but I feel I should set up some kind of lighting, do you have yours in bags
Mel
-
I use propagation domes. See http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6490.msg320943#msg320943 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6490.msg320943#msg320943)
I have used baggies in the past. They work fine. But the prop domes are much easier and quicker to work with. Anyway, the baggies aren't your problem. I think your light source is your problem. Once you start growing under fluorescents, you won't want to do it any other way.
-
I use propagation domes. See http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6490.msg320943#msg320943 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6490.msg320943#msg320943)
I have used baggies in the past. They work fine. But the prop domes are much easier and quicker to work with. Anyway, the baggies aren't your problem. I think your light source is your problem. Once you start growing under fluorescents, you won't want to do it any other way.
Oh my Gosh Gene, I have to have a set up like yours, looking at the pictures you put up and the length of time the seeds took to germinate is fantastic, I said to my husband I have to have one, will you make me a frame like this and he rolled his eyes thinking more work, but that looks just fantastic, thanks so much. With your saxifraga seeds, what kind of mix did you sow them on.
-
Mix for most seeds:
1 part peat
1 part perlite
3 parts pumice (or perlite)
1 part sandy loam garden soil
1/3 part vermiculite
Add a little dolomite lime, bone meal and Micromax trace element mix. I don't know exact quantities.
Your garden soil may or may not be OK for seed starting mix. You will have to experiment.
This is a coarse mix. For very small seeds, you should sprinkle some peat on top of the mix, and surface-sow the seeds on top of the peat.
For very sharp drainage, add more perlite.
For growing on, I use the same mix but with some small bark chips added.
Room temperature should not exceed 15C for seedlings. If you are growing European alpine gentians and other very sensitive plants, less than 10C is needed, or the seedlings will die. For this, you can set up a fluorescent in your unheated garage, front porch, etc. You must protect against mice. They love to eat the seedlings.
Another photo of the setup:
[attach=1]
Note that I use reflective panels to reflect the light back to the plants. This keeps them from stretching. White insulating foam panels are easy to cut.
You can grow beautiful tomato and pepper plants under lights:
[attach=2]
-
You can grow beautiful tomato and pepper plants under lights:
They're not the only plants that benefit, Gene! In my region we apparently have the most 'farms' per head of population ("Eee, it make you reight proud to be a tyke!"). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17888762 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17888762)
I've often wondered about getting some lights in the greenhouse but I'm pretty sure it would attract attention and a visit from both the boys in blue and the local scallies!
-
They're not the only plants that benefit, Gene! In my region we apparently have the most 'farms' per head of population ("Eee, it make you reight proud to be a tyke!"). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17888762 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17888762)
I've often wondered about getting some lights in the greenhouse but I'm pretty sure it would attract attention and a visit from both the boys in blue and the local scallies!
A few monthly energy bill driven bust ups in York in the last few years as well .... :D
-
A few monthly energy bill driven bust ups in York in the last few years as well .... :D
Yes, I've heard that the energy companies alert the authorities if a property suddenly starts to consume suspicious amounts of electricity. The other giveway in winter is a row of terraced houses with snow on the roofs apart from one ("Open the door, we'd like to have a look in your loft, sir")!
-
Mix for most seeds:
1 part peat
1 part perlite
3 parts pumice (or perlite)
1 part sandy loam garden soil
1/3 part vermiculite
Add a little dolomite lime, bone meal and Micromax trace element mix. I don't know exact quantities.
Your garden soil may or may not be OK for seed starting mix. You will have to experiment.
This is a coarse mix. For very small seeds, you should sprinkle some peat on top of the mix, and surface-sow the seeds on top of the peat.
For very sharp drainage, add more perlite.
For growing on, I use the same mix but with some small bark chips added.
Room temperature should not exceed 15C for seedlings. If you are growing European alpine gentians and other very sensitive plants, less than 10C is needed, or the seedlings will die. For this, you can set up a fluorescent in your unheated garage, front porch, etc. You must protect against mice. They love to eat the seedlings.
Another photo of the setup:
(Attachment Link)
Note that I use reflective panels to reflect the light back to the plants. This keeps them from stretching. White insulating foam panels are easy to cut.
You can grow beautiful tomato and pepper plants under lights:
(Attachment Link)
Hi Gene
thanks so so much, I have thought of nothing else but this unit today, planning on getting they equipment. I dare say I may contact you again. Oh yes How long do you leave the lights on in a day, are they left on for 24 hours? or just in evenings
Mel
-
I've never figured out how many hours of light is best. I set the timer so they come on at 9AM and shut off at 7PM.
You can buy fluorescent light gardening units, but they are very expensive. Also, they are built as shelves with one or two lights on each. A lot of the light just comes out the front and back and is lost. In my setup, I have five fixtures side-by-side, with plants under all of them. So almost no light is wasted. Also, I use the reflective panels on the edges. The other thing I like about my setup is that you can easily move the fixtures up and down.
My light setup is in a corner of my kitchen. The vinyl flooring will not be damaged by water. I can care for the plants without going out in the cold. Also, all heat from the fixtures goes into heating the house. So I have 100% energy efficiency. But if you keep your house very warm (above 20C), a lot of seedlings will have difficulty surviving. If you must keep your light setup in a warm place, you will need to experiment to find out which plants will grow there.
Maybe you should start out with one fixture and see how it goes.