Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: Alan_b on October 30, 2014, 07:47:16 AM
-
Is there a Latin scholar in the house?
'Poculiform' often seems to be pronounced with a long 'u' as in 'cute' or 'peculiar'. If that is right then I am very tempted to coin an adjective for a snowdrop that is poculiform in appearance so I can say: 'That's a poculiar-looking snowdrop'. But I have a feeling that correct pronunciation should be with a short 'u' and in 'cull' or 'Culpeper'.
Can anyone set me straight and tell me which is correct?
-
Forgive my air of frivolity, Alan, but unless there is a Roman senator lurking in the forum, who knows - and even, does it matter ??
-
called it cup-shaped and avoid the dead language
-
Ok it has been discussed in the office in the past 30second. One of my colleagues pronounces a species he works with as Begonia po-queue-lifera he seems adamant.
-
Alan B's question has a tone of humour in that he would be able to better make a joke with the term, which is innocent enough - but I feel strongly about these matters and feel I must explain my own attitude:
"Correct" pronounciation of latin - or perhaps more likely " latinised" - names and terms is something I have found myself discussing on many occasions. It usually turns out that one person thinks they have the "correct" version and is keen to impose that form on everyone else. Apart from being unhelpful to those struggling with such unfamiliar terms it seems to me that it is a bit odd to try to categorise something that at best is an unknown and oftentimes is a complete fabrication and would never have been "spoken" in the first place.
There is such diversity of pronounciation of such things between native English speakers ( and it tends to be those who get most "hung -up " on "correctness" ) that it is clear that when the question of how those people speaking other languages might say these words is fed into the mix there is effectively no way of standardising the pronounciation, let alone standardising to a given "correctness".
At least when such terms are written they can be read by us all to let us know what is meant.
I spend so much time working to enable people from anywhere in the world to come together and share their plant experiences and form lasting connections and friendships that this type of question is something that means a lot to me, since I worry that it is something that makes divisions and causes worry to people.
-
Alan try google
https://translate.google.com/#la/en/Poculiform
And hit the speaker button
;D
-
Maggi
it reminds me of a one day conference where there were three talks that involved Turkish plants. All three speakers naturally thought they spoke fluent Turkish and pronounced the place names quite differently. Perhaps a Birmingham accent does not fit easily with the Turkish language.
When we first started visiting East Germany we soon discovered we had never heard of many of the plants until we actually saw the written labels. Off course they pronounce them correctly.
Best thing I find is to do your own thing!
-
Best thing I find is to do your own thing!
Exactly! - and carry a pad and pencil to be able to write it down if need be!! ;D ;D
-
I'll confess the origin of my query:
Some years ago when I was a naive 'young' galanthophile, I went to a talk where the speaker mentioned 'poculiform'. This terminology accompanied a slide of what then struck me as a very peculiar-looking snowdrop. I had not heard the term before and it was either not explained or the explanation went over my head. Since the speaker at that time pronounced it with a long 'u' (poc-you-liform) and with the emphasis on the 'u', what I heard was 'peculiform' and since that time I have never been able to shake-off a mental association between 'poculiform' and 'peculiar' - because my initial assumption was that the two words derived from the same root. So when I was first struggling with this unfamiliar term I wish it had been pronounced with a short 'u' rather than a long one and with the emphasis on the 'o' - just as the nice lady on Google Translate pronounces it (thanks Neil).
-
Great story, Alan - and it has certainly helped you remember the term, hasn't it! ;)
-
My college lecturer said as long as you can spell it , just say it with confidence and it doesn't really matter if you get it a bit wrong as it's a dead language .
-
My pronunciation is strongly influenced by working for some months in Spain back in the 1980's. My English speaking local friend spoke very good English, (taught him by someone from Northern Ireland) and he used to say to me pronounce all the vowels with equal length. Stress none when you don't know. He complained of me saying Bizet (Carmen) with a long e. He said it with a short e like Bizette.
-
... there is effectively no way of standardising the pronounciation, let alone standardising to a given "correctness".
The UK packs a lot of different regional accents into a small area and I would hate to see these lost. My aunt, who spent more time in Lancashire than her younger siblings, would always pronounce 'book', 'cook', 'look, etc as if they were a perfect rhyme with 'spook'. The family moved to Nottingham and as a child growing up there this struck me as very curious. But it's really much more sensible than modern 'received pronunciation' that pronounces 'too' differently to 'took'.
I'm not suggesting we should be in the least intolerant of different pronunciations but that does not mean that guidance on how to pronounce unfamiliar words is not helpful. Whatever the accent of the individual, when a word is unfamiliar it is helpful to know what to aim for, specifically which vowels are long and which vowels are short and where the emphasis should be placed. Latin is a dead language that few still understand but botanists and others still like to use it to fashion new descriptive terms. If this practice is to continue, maybe it should become incumbent on whoever coins the new term to also specify the desired pronunciation?
-
I was taught to always pronounce botanical latin with short vowel sounds. I'd say; Po (as in pot) cul (as in cult) i (as in ink) form.
Here's one I wouldn't mind help with. Leucoxylon Discuss...
-
There is such diversity of pronounciation of such things between native English speakers ( and it tends to be those who get most "hung -up " on "correctness" ) that it is clear that when the question of how those people speaking other languages might say these words is fed into the mix there is effectively no way of standardising the pronounciation, let alone standardising to a given "correctness".
I agree. Listen to recordings of settings of the Latin Mass ( or other Latin texts) made in different parts of Europe. There is no consistency in pronunciation.
-
I think we all have our favourite ways of pronunciation. As long as you are communicating effectively with your listener, and they understand to what you are referring, I don't think it matters.
How many different ways of pronouncing Androsace have we heard? Are there any that fail to get across which plant we're discussing?
I have a poculiarity (!) in that if a plant is named after a person, I like to try and respectfully pronounce the person's name correctly. So I would pronounce Roscoea as Ross-koh-ah.
Leucoxylon - Loo-cox-illon? No, Loo-koh-z-eye-lon...
-
Think this is more difficult for you English speaking than for me speaking Norwegian. I just pronounce the letters the same way as I do in Norwegian!
What I have discussed with others are where the stress is and whether oe is o + e or ø!
-
Here's one I wouldn't mind help with. Leucoxylon Discuss...
Leuco-xylon i.e. leuco as in 'Leucojum', xyl as in 'xylophone', on as in 'on' would be my guess. That's based on the fact that lots of words are prefixed with leuco or leuko, meaning white, so it's natural to pause momentarily after leuco then begin again with the rest of the word.
-
Yes I agree Alan, except I thought leuco meant yellow, and xylon wood.
This subject is so interesting to me as I often find myself the odd one out with my pronunciations. I persist though because I believe that pronouncing the names phonetically, exactly as they are written with no emphasis on any syllable over another makes the most sense. If everyone followed this simple rule there would be less confusion.
-
I think *leuco* is white -
lots of choices for yellow in latin :-\ *flavus* *aureus* *croceus* .......and *xanth* is Greek for yellow I think.
-
Ahh of course it is Maggi, I was getting mixed up with my Zanthoxylum simulans, which I grew from seed and is a member of the family now. She's a bit prickly, but so is my wife, so she fits right in around here! Shhhh... Don't tell her I said that. :o
Ps. She read this... But she laughed so I don't think it will impact on my "cuddle quota"
-
Jupiter - Is Z. simulans the species they use for the very best Sichuan peppercorns? I am addicted to them but no one can tell me if piperitum is preferred! I understand they are scraggly trees but possibly very hardy. A local cook goes to Chengdu several times a year and brings me back explosive ones but even he didn't realize they came from a tree.
Hope you can enlighten, I thought I'd ask before your wife gives you a good swat. ;)
johnw
-
Once upon a time, there was a German priest in my family, whose penfriend was an English vicar. When the Englishman paid his first visit to his German friend, he regarded Latin as the decent way to greet his colleague : "Amice !" (Oh friend!) The German, hearing something that sounded like " a mice ! ", was consterned to feel his foreign friend confronted with a mouse in his household.
He would have pronounced " Amice!" rather like "Ameekeh!".
This little story of former times demonstrates, how different Latin and botanical names are pronounced in different countries.
Indeed, only pen and paper will help. At least, I always found English people very friendly and helpful when necessary!
-
Well, me being a Romanian, and thus let's say 50% of Roman origin (hehehe), and also having taken Latin classes both in highschool and college I would say without the "Q" sound.
Romanian is a very phonemic language and thus we read everything we see (write).
-
fixpix, you are who we need in this discussion. How about the 'y' in phyllum? And how would you pronounce phyllostachys?
-
Well, I am not a scholar really. And who knows if there's an internationally recognized Latin pronunciation.
for me y=i as in "in".
phyllostachys would be "filostakis" both "y" as simple "i", not as diphthong "ai".
Same goes for the other two vowels, "o" and "a".
"O" as in "or" and "A" as the first sound in "under".
It is a little difficult, as our vowels are clearly pronounced.
-
I do not pronounce Latin "y" like that!
"y" is a very different sound from "i". "i" is as fixpix says like "i" in i[/]n, but "y" is more like the "y" in yellow but as a vowel not a consonant, and not a diphthong either.
"o" is like "o" in sophisticated.
"a" is like "a" in father, but a little shorter.
"phyllum" has the same "y" some above.
-
Thanks fixpix and Hoy. This is what I suspected and I agree with phyllum being pronounced fill-um and phyllostachys, fill-o-stak-iss. I know you're not scholars but you have two advantages over me; 1. you've actually studied it, and 2. you are in European countries and therefor closer to the source, if you will.
I have another question, diphthongs such as eae and oides. How do you pronounce your plant family names? Does oides in latin equal oy-deez, or oh-eye-deez, or oh-id-ess?
-
These are not diphthongs as far as I know, in Latin the only diphthongs are "au", "eu" and "ui"; easily pronounced in Norwegian but maybe not in English?
"ae" and "oe" is like single "e" (but I often say "æ" and "ø").
Vowels marked with ¨ like "öe" in "Kalanchöe" is pronounced as single letters. The same in "-oides" => "oh-id-ess".
This is my understanding of it and not necessarily everyone's! And my English isn't good enough to say this correctly I presume ;D
-
My wife says "Tom-aye-toe" and I say "Tom-are -toe".
-
Likewise, but how does she say 'poculiform'? I see a distinction between the way one would pronounce a familiar term like tomato, which is down to accent, and the way one would tackle an unfamiliar term that you have read and never heard spoken. Reading this thread has convinced me that whoever coins a new term ought to give guidance on how they would like it to be pronounced.
For example, a controversial new word in the snowdrop world is 'pterugiform' which was coined at the instigation of Mark Brown. In piece of online correspondence he writes
I am sure that some will prefer to go the road of pocs instead of poculiforms and thus terries instead of pterugiforms...
which helps quite a bit (confirming that the p is silent) but is the 'u' long as in 'pure' or 'short' as in 'rug'? If anybody here knows Mark they should ask him.
-
And what about Schizostylis? As in Schizocodon presumably? But then why Skit so phrenia instead of Schi zo phrenia?
-
But then why Skit so phrenia instead of Schi zo phrenia?
The jury is split on that :) ;D :)
-
Skit so phrenia instead of Schi zo phrenia?
Apparently the term by coined by the Swiss psychiatrist Eugen Blauer in a lecture he gave in Berlin (so presumably in German). Seemingly it took a long time for the term to be adopted into English by which time it had presumably acquired a pronunciation more consistent with German.
-
..... This is what I suspected and I agree with phyllum being pronounced fill-um ......
For my sins I spent nearly 50 years in the company of professional biologists (in the UK) & never once heard 'phyllum' (actually phylum) pronounced fill-um.
-
Likewise, but how does she say 'poculiform'? I see a distinction between the way one would pronounce a familiar term like tomato, which is down to accent, and the way one would tackle an unfamiliar term that you have read and never heard spoken. Reading this thread has convinced me that whoever coins a new term ought to give guidance on how they would like it to be pronounced.
For example, a controversial new word in the snowdrop world is 'pterugiform' which was coined at the instigation of Mark Brown. In piece of online correspondence he writes
which helps quite a bit (confirming that the p is silent) but is the 'u' long as in 'pure' or 'short' as in 'rug'? If anybody here knows Mark they should ask him.
She pronounces it "poc-coo-li-form". I would say "poc-queue-li-form".
-
For my sins I spent nearly 50 years in the company of professional biologists (in the UK) & never once heard 'phyllum' (actually phylum) pronounced fill-um.
But that's the whole point. A word that you have heard for 50 years is pronounced the way you have heard it pronounced for 50 years, irrespective of whatever the 'correct ' pronunciation should have been. It's the new and rarely-spoken words that present the problems.
My original question is about a word that, as I learned yesterday, has been used as a descriptive term for a type of snowdrop since 1880. It features in talks from time-to-time and so there might well now be a pronunciation established by tradition, even if that tradition is a weak and thin one. But, surprisingly, nobody has come forward with the answer: "Well I've always said ..."
-
I have always pronounced Lavandula as "La -VAN-dew-la", but when I was studying at Hadlow College on of the lecturers always pronounced it as "La-van-DEW-la". Does it really matter?
-
... Does it really matter?
Tomayto tomahto, eh?
-
It's the new and rarely-spoken words that present the problems.
If they are "rarely spoken" then not much of a problem for most people.
-
I concede there is a 'fuss-over-nothing' point of view but if I had to stand up to give a talk, I would not want to stumble over how to pronounce an unfamiliar word and put myself off. Emma's tutor was undoubtedly correct that the best thing to do is to speak confidently and not worry but that's easier said than done. And anyway I'm just plain curious to know if there is an accepted 'right' answer.
I found an old article here http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15364/15364-h/15364-h.htm (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15364/15364-h/15364-h.htm) addressing the issue of "THE PRONUNCIATION OF ENGLISH WORDS DERIVED FROM THE LATIN" but this just served to indicate than any rules there might be are frequently broken.
-
If you were to give a talk then surely you would explain what the term meant and nobody would then be confused - pronunciation is not an issue. If you are really worried ring Joe ;)
-
Come to New Zealand. We have to pronounce Maori words exactly right or .... but English is massacred! Add words from other languages and you have no chance. Foy-er; two door cars suddenly become hen houses (i.e. coupé becomes coup); we have chilli con carn; my dog is a whymarayner; my son's friend is fed up having his country called an apple product - i-Raq pronounced eyerack, and where the heck is LOS Vegas!? I cringe when a new player come on to a sports field for his "day-boo" or worse, "d'boo".
-
If you are really worried ring Joe ;)
I'm not amongst the select few who actually know Joe Sharman's telephone number. When he called me a few weeks ago his number was withheld - which meant he was quite lucky that I picked-up the phone at all.
I'm pretty sure that Joe says poc-yule-iform (i.e. with the 'u' sound long and stressed). I'm also pretty sure that 'pocul' should be pronounced with a short u and the stress on 'poc' if you are attempting to say it as scholars think the Romans did. And since starting this thread I have come to realise that if a majority of people use a particular pronunciation then that is de facto correct. Heaven knows, we may one day all be pronouncing 'nuclear' as 'new-killer' - as a significant minority already do.
-
I'm not amongst the select few who actually know Joe Sharman's telephone number. When he called me a few weeks ago his number was withheld - which meant he was quite lucky that I picked-up the phone at all.
" Telephone 01954 251555 (answerphone)
Email info@monksilvernursery.co.uk Please include a contact telephone number "
(Can be a risky business to ignore all "withheld " numbers - for instance, I know when a Doctors' surgery phones the number is with held. !)
-
Sorry, yes, I have in the past successfully used both the answering machine and the email of Monksilver Nursery to get in touch with Joe Sharman. But it's a bit hit-and-miss should you want a rapid response as he is a busy person. I respect this and would hesitate to call him over anything so trivial as how to pronounce a word.
These days when somebody calls me from a 'withheld' number it has become so likely to be an unwanted marketing call that I usually let my answering machine handle it.
-
Wow - no wonder there are so many languages in the world and no one can understand a Scot or Cockney! And it's all come about as a result of a weird looking snowdrop. This must be why the Czechs and others add these wonderful diacritics which add so much fun when you write about their rock gardens and want to get the names right, even if you have no idea how to pronounce them. In 'Captain Corelli's Mandolin' the English spy who parachuted into Cephallonia spoke Ancient Greek learnt at Eton ;)
-
Happily, my doc calls with "Hello Lesley, ir's Richard from the surgery. I've recognized his voice anyway. Now he's retired I've yet to meet Ben. :) We tend to be a bit informal in NZ.
Anthony has already decried our ability with foreign languages. Maori MUST be pronounced correctly or we are accused - by Maori - of racism, which means that I largely avoid their language altogether but I'm having fun recently with the fantastic Micheline Van Houtem as she sings Jacques Brel songs, which she did recently in Dunedin. I can cope with the French reasonably but struggle with the Dutch and Flemish. :) The music's amazing though. :P
-
If you are really worried ring Joe ;)
No need now as Joe has been kind enough to put something in volume 2 of his publication, 'The 'Drop Out'.
By common consent or lazy habit poculiform is usually pronounced "poc-you-li-form". Most of us haven't had a classical education, but it does not stop us from making our best effort in Latlish!"
That must surely be the definitive answer, at least amongst the galanthophile community.
-
Galanthus el-wes-e-i or el-wes-e-e
Galanthus el-wheeze-e-i or el-wheeze-e-e
-
Good question, Mark. I cannot believe the family after which the snowdrop is named calls themselves El-wheeze, surely it has to be a short e ('wes' as in Wesley). And personally I always say e-i.
On the subject of family names, I have never been 100% sure if you are Smyth to rhyme with pith (i.e. the same as Smith) or Smyth to rhyme with lithe (long y sound). Would you care to give the definitive answer here?
-
I'm not posh so it's said like Smyth. No one over here says s-my
-
When I first got in to snowdrops most people were saying el-wheeze-e-i but I know say el-wes-e-i.
-
I know it's frequently pronounced el-wheeze-e-i but if you're in the Elwes family that must really grate.
-
Maori MUST be pronounced correctly or we are accused - by Maori - of racism, which means that I largely avoid their language altogether
If they accuse you of racism, try getting them to pronounce some UK placenames: Pwhelli, Betws-y-Coed or Machynlleth come to mind. Or how about Sgor an Lochain Uaine, Liathach or Sgùrr na Banachdaich?
-
or Uddersfild if it comes to that ;D
-
We have Aviemore Drive (pronounced 'ay, as for 'orses) and Ben Lomond Crescent (pronounced Ben Le Mond) near us. I despair. :(
-
Pronunciations change, particularly of places I think. Sometimes that happens even after the spelling has been fixed. 'Leicester', for example, is surely spelled that way to reflect some past pronunciation (now it's 'Lester'). Are you sure Ben Lomond isn't a corruption of the original Ben Le Mond, Anthony?
-
Not sure what Ben Le Mond is, but Ben Lomond is a muckle great hill near Glasgow, and seeing as other streets have a Scottish connection, I would suggest that's the origin. I think pronunciation is just peculiform here! ::)
-
Perhaps I will enter the fray with Galanthus woronowii which is never pronounced correctly (probably not by me either). Named in honour of the Russian botanist and plant collector Georg Woronow. Presumably pronounced Voronoff and therefore should be Voronoff-ee-eye or Voronoff-ee.
-
I'll buy that Brian. 8)
-
.. Ben Lomond is a muckle great hill near Glasgow ...
Yes, and the pronunciation I have learned is something like 'Low mund'. But if my ancestors had moved from Scotland to New Zealand in 1860 would they have pronounced it the same then?
-
Judging by the poetry of Robert Burns, I suspect it was pronounced the same in 1760.
-
Pronunciations change, particularly of places I think. Sometimes that happens even after the spelling has been fixed. 'Leicester', for example, is surely spelled that way to reflect some past pronunciation (now it's 'Lester'). Are you sure Ben Lomond isn't a corruption of the original Ben Le Mond, Anthony?
Quoting from a book , Scottish Hill Names -
"Ben Lomond is a landmark on the southern edge of the Highlands, visible from many Lowland spots. Th is gives credence to the idea that, like Fife's Lomond Hills, it comes from the Cumbric word, Ilumon meaning a beacon or blaze or light, giving the hill an ancient telecommunications function.
The Gaelic luimean, a barren hillock, might also seem appropriate as it rises near-naked above a heavily wooded base."
Ben is "the commonest Scottish Gaelic hill-word" - meaning " a mountain of any shape or size......"
From "Scottish Hill Names - Their origin and meaning" by Peter Drumond - published by the Scottish Mountaineering Trust. ISBN 978-0-907 521-95-2
-
The "latinising" of plant names is an artifice - sometihng quite artificial and I doubt if anyone whoe name has been subject to such a thing would bother to give much thought to the matter.
There are names in English, which are equally, if not more, liable to being mangled - Cholmondeley, for instance! :P ;D ;D
Not exactly the stuff of life and death tho', is it? ;) I personally would prefer to spend time on the actual plants ;D
-
Captain Mainwaring would be proud of you, Maggi!
-
Captain Mainwaring would be proud of you, Maggi!
Thank you, Ralph, Rafe, Raff ............ ;) :-*
-
The "latinising" of plant names is an artifice - sometihng quite artificial and I doubt if anyone whose name has been subject to such a thing would bother to give much thought to the matter.
I think I read in one of Bowles' works that a waggish taxonomist named a species taurii after a Mr Bull! :o
cheers
fermi
-
The "latinising" of plant names is an artifice ... I personally would prefer to spend time on the actual plants ;D
Here here, Maggi!
To add to the artifice, the source of names used in binomial nomenclature to create a "latin name" for living things is not exclusively latin words. There are greek words, other languages and names of people and places in the mix too. So a 'correct' latin pronunciation is quite unnecessary.
Best to just enjoy the plants.
-
Hi Matt - good holiday?
-
AMAZING holiday! Wish I was still there :'( I'm sorting through the 2,802 photos :-[ and will post a select few on the Forum when I get a chance. First visit to the Forum since getting back, so just catching up on all the activity I've missed.
-
Galanthus el-wes-e-i or el-wes-e-e
Galanthus el-wheeze-e-i or el-wheeze-e-e
Sorry to see you have a chest cold Mark. ;D
-
During Dunedin's recent biennial Arts Festival, I was thrilled to attend a concert/recital/performance by Belgian chanteuse (her word) Micheline Van Houtem. She sang all songs by Jacques Brel and was a fantastic entertainer. Why I mention it was because she said she had thought our city was pronounced as dunny din (to our horror! but went on to say she'd been told it was, in fact a combination of DUN from Dundee and EDIN from Edinburgh. No-one corrected her but I'm sure this is incorrect, rather the old Celtic word Dun, meaning hill combines with edin, as in Edinburgh which also means Edin hill surely? Please correct me if I'm wrong myself, here.
-
If they accuse you of racism, try getting them to pronounce some UK placenames: Pwhelli, Betws-y-Coed or Machynlleth come to mind. Or how about Sgor an Lochain Uaine, Liathach or Sgùrr na Banachdaich?
Thanks Ralph, I'll do that. Most NZers havee nough trouble with Craigellachie here except the dozen or so who live there (on the way to Roxburgh in Central Otago)
Sorry about the reference above to Micheline. I seee I'd already mentioned that wonderful evening. Her music still sings in my head. :)
-
I think the delightful Belgian Chanteuse was mislead. Dùn Èideann - meaning a hill fort, I think, was the original name for what became, in a more Anglo-Germanic naming, Edinburgh. Dundee doesn't come into the equation at all ;)
(Small world, isn't it - I was born in Edinburgh and my Father had relatives in the (Scottish) Craigellachie! )