Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: johnstephen29 on October 14, 2014, 09:59:24 PM
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I'm not sure wether this belongs here or in the alpine log, but here goes. Picked up this Massonia Echinata at the weekend at the cyclamen society show at wisley, I must have picked it up half a dozen times to look at it as I've never seen anything like it before. It was only £2.00 pounds so I've taken a chance with it. I've also done some homework, it likes a nice sunny site, has white honey scented flowers & hails from south Africa. I've looked up an article in the Wisley Alpine Log 8 8th Nov 2007 where you can see it in flower. This is of course only a young plant so it will be awhile before a get a flower like that.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5602/14916791914_c0e0d50a87_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oJ9sxu)Massonia Echinata (https://flic.kr/p/oJ9sxu) by johnstephen29 (https://www.flickr.com/people/126223196@N05/), on Flickr
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The Wisley Log mentioned by John is this one : http://www.srgc.org.uk/wisley/2007/071107/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/wisley/2007/071107/log.html)
Smart little plant - intriguing thing these Massonias. I know quite a few foriuumists are very keen on them and grow them.
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I'm not sure wether this belongs here or in the alpine log, but here goes. Picked up this Massonia Echinata at the weekend at the cyclamen society show at wisley, I must have picked it up half a dozen times to look at it as I've never seen anything like it before. It was only £2.00 pounds so I've taken a chance with it. I've also done some homework, it likes a nice sunny site, has white honey scented flowers & hails from south Africa. I've looked up an article in the Wisley Alpine Log 8 8th Nov 2007 where you can see it in flower. This is of course only a young plant so it will be awhile before a get a flower like that.
Hi John - it was one of my young plants (remarkable value, eh? :) ). There is a flower bud showing so you should get something this year albeit on the small size. After flowering make sure you remove the spent bloom because botrytis can set in otherwise. Let it dry off in late spring/early summer - it needs a dry rest. It'll need a bigger pot with a very gritty compost next season - repot and start watering as the weather cools in late August/early September. Here's three of mine flowering last year (early December).
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It'll need a bigger pot with a very gritty compost next season...
Actually, looking at the photo again, it looks like you've already potted it on - I'm sure it was in a smaller pot when I took it to the show!
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Hi Maggi & Steve it's a lovely little plant & a completely new one for me, & a bargain to boot. I've put it with my succulent plants in the sunniest part of the greenhouse. I though they were new leaves growing Steve, I'm looking forward to seeing it flower. Have I jumped the gun in potting it on already?. The compost I've used is the same as I give my cyclamen john innes No3 with vermiculite & grit mixed in, is that ok?. Really like your plants steve & the flowers are amazing, hope I can get mine looking as good. I was cleaning my car today & I found those seeds Cyclamen Coum album scented that I promised you in the pocket on the drivers side, do you want me to hold on to them till February or send them to you?
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Hi Maggi & Steve it's a lovely little plant & a completely new one for me, & a bargain to boot. I've put it with my succulent plants in the sunniest part of the greenhouse. I though they were new leaves growing Steve, I'm looking forward to seeing it flower. Have I jumped the gun in potting it on already?. The compost I've used is the same as I give my cyclamen john innes No3 with vermiculite & grit mixed in, is that ok?. Really like your plants steve & the flowers are amazing, hope I can get mine looking as good. I was cleaning my car today & I found those seeds Cyclamen Coum album scented that I promised you in the pocket on the drivers side, do you want me to hold on to them till February or send them to you?
John - yes, the gritty compost is fine. It would probably have been OK left in the smaller pot but it'll be fine, just be careful with the watering because the bigger pot of compost will remain wetter for longer until the roots start to fill the pot, particularly now that the temperature is dropping. I find they do ok cultivated under the same conditions as C. graecum or rohlfsianum (apart from letting them dry out completely in the summer). Don't worry about the coum seeds, I can pick up in Feb.
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Cheers mate
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John one of my favourite plants, and what a bargain you got. Mine are doing better this year, not sure why and not sure what I did wrong last year but hopefully I will have some nice flowering plants this year. Will look forward to see the picture when its in flower.
Angie :)
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Hi angie I am too, steve's photo's & the pics in the wisley log have only made more eager to see it in flower. I have brought it into the house & put it in the conservatory where it will get plenty of sunshine & I can enjoy it more. :)
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John that will be you hooked on this amazing plants ;D ;D
Angie :)
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Hi angie I hope so, before I forget do you feed these at all?
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Hi angie I hope so, before I forget do you feed these at all?
As your bulb is in fresh compost it shouldn't need feeding this growing season. They don't need much feeding anyway and I believe the Cape soils are very low in phosphates so use a fertiliser with no or low P, if you can get it. Probably wise to use at 1/4 or 1/2 strength...
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Cheers steve
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Hi angie I hope so, before I forget do you feed these at all?
Hi John, you got your answer. I do feed at half strength. But like I said last year I didn't do so well. Sorry for not answering but just been trying to catch up in the garden. I have so much things to do , my list just grows and grows ;D.
Angie :)
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Hi Angie it's no problem, I've been doing the same to a flower bed near the back door. It's all tidy now, got it done just in time before that storm hits tonight, it's going to be a bad one so they say.
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Hi Angie it's no problem, I've been doing the same to a flower bed near the back door. It's all tidy now, got it done just in time before that storm hits tonight, it's going to be a bad one so they say.
John lets hope we don't get any damage. My garden is all tidy, I wander what like it will be after the gales.
Angie :)
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Hopefully all will be ok for gardens, wildlife & people god willing.
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Hi John,
Glad you like what are some of my favourite plants too, Massonias and Daubenyas! It is certainly easy to get "hooked" on them as Angie said. If you find yourself in this condition you may be interested to know about the South African Bulb Group - see the website at www.sabg.tk/ (http://www.sabg.tk/). Our seed and bulb exchange often has these types of plants available. Members also often bring plants for sale to the meetings.
Enjoy
Paul
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I've added the SABG to the Links pages
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?action=links (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?action=links) is the page for the various links menus
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Hi Paul thanks for getting in touch, they are really great little plants. I really liked your article in the wisley alpine log that I mentioned earlier, I'll take a look at the group you mentioned thanks. Thanks for posting the link Maggi.
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John I joined the SABG, its something worth doing and there is some good reading and like Paul has said they have a bulb exchange. I just wish I stayed down South as I would love to attend their meeting. Saying this I forgot about my own club meeting last night. I bet it was a good talk on another of my favourite plants Trilliums.
Angie :)
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Hi Angie I have just sent an email to enquire about joining, see what they say.
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Hi the massonia Echinata I got off steve in October is now flowering, really beautiful flowers and a loverly scent.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7577/15657515497_53b937c078_c.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/126223196@N05/15657515497/)
Massonia Echinata (https://www.flickr.com/photos/126223196@N05/15657515497/) by johnstephen29 (https://www.flickr.com/people/126223196@N05/), on Flickr
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Massonia echinata ?
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Hi Michael my plant looks completely different to the plants in your photos, do you know What plant I have?
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Good to see you Michael.
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My first Massonia flowering today. Not sure why the leaves of this plant are so upright, maybe just the lack of light but saying this the others are ok.
Think it is M. Jasminiflora.
Angie :)
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Great looking massonia angie, my plant's leaves have lifted up as well. Apparently mine is not Echinata.
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Great looking massonia angie, my plant's leaves have lifted up as well. Apparently mine is not Echinata.
John my brain isn't very good and neither are my labels ::) :-X
Angie :)
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Hi Michael my plant looks completely different to the plants in your photos, do you know What plant I have?
This page with helpful descriptions and pics on the PBS site might help, John: http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Massonia
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Thanks for that matt I'll take a look. Hi angie I didn't get this from you, I got it from sjw via the cyclamen show in October. I got the haemanthus from you :)
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Thanks for that matt I'll take a look. Hi angie I didn't get this from you, I got it from sjw via the cyclamen show in October. I got the haemanthus from you :)
John don't blame me if the Haemanthus is wrongly named like I have said I am not very good with the labelling, I used to blame my cats, but no more cats now. I blame the birds but really I think its just me. No chance of me ever giving away my Massonia, I just love growing them. My favourite plant in the greenhouse at this time of year.
Angie :)
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Massonia echinata ?
Michael - looks more like M. pustulata?
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Great looking massonia angie, my plant's leaves have lifted up as well. Apparently mine is not Echinata.
Whoops, sorry about that John. Seed was labelled as echinata but Paul C has identified it as M. hirsuta. Though the PBS wiki lists hirsuta as a synonym of echinata. ???
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Hi steve it's ok mate, I think I remember you saying on another post that this family of plants needed sorting out. I'll redo the label, at the end of the day I still have a cracker of a plant :)
Hi angie I'm not blaming you for anything, all the labels are fine.
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Hi John,
I agree that your plant is probably M. hirsuta. My personal view is that this is a good species and not a synonym of M. echinata. M. hirsuta is "officially" accepted as a good name in the Kew database. The idea that it is a synonym of M. echinata came from a botanist called Jessop who published a paper in 1976 suggesting this.
This genus still needs a lot of work done on it, but there is group at the University of Graz in Austria who are actively trying to sort out the mess. A DNA paper is expected from them in the not too distant future.
Another point that is well worth mentioning is that Massonia species seem very happy to hybridise with each other and I suspect that many plants in cultivation are hybrids, especially if seed is grown from exchanges and the grower who supplies the seed has not specifically hand-pollinated them and excluded other pollinators. It would be interesting to know if hybridisation also occurs in the wild and whether this adds to the confusion of naming them.
Paul
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Hi steve it's ok mate, I think I remember you saying on another post that this family of plants needed sorting out. I'll redo the label, at the end of the day I still have a cracker of a plant :)
Hi angie I'm not blaming you for anything, all the labels are fine.
Hi John
I don't mind being blamed :) not that you have :) I am hopeless and can't believe how folks on here have the perfect labelling system. I can't remember plant names, I kill more than I wish too( keep that a secret ) but at the end of the day I just love plants and just love the day they flower. Massonia flowers just are so lovely. You enjoy your Massonia bulbs and hopefully you will get more soon. There are so many generous folks on this forum.
Angie :)
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Another point that is well worth mentioning is that Massonia species seem very happy to hybridise with each other and I suspect that many plants in cultivation are hybrids, especially if seed is grown from exchanges and the grower who supplies the seed has not specifically hand-pollinated them and excluded other pollinators. It would be interesting to know if hybridisation also occurs in the wild and whether this adds to the confusion of naming them.
Paul
Hi Paul - I think Darren has also raised concerns about hybrid massonias in cultivation (he had some himself!). I suppose it's part of the fun - and occasional frustration - of raising seed-exchange plants. I have a pot of young echinata plants from Gordon Summerfield's seed growing on which should drastically reduce the chance of iffy parentage (unless there's unplanned hybridisation also taking place in his nursery :) ). Currently impatiently waiting for this year's seed order to arrive although I hear there's a postal strike in South Africa...
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Hi Paul thanks for the info, also I have managed to get some seeds of M. Depressa and M. Pustulata, what Is the best way to sow these and what sort of compost? Thanks John. Cheers angie your a star.
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Hi John,
Seed of winter-growing South African bulbs is best sown in September, but it should still do Ok if you sow it now, they'll just have a bit of a shorter first season. (In fact I have known people sow as late as January and still have reasonable success).
I use a mix of 1 part loam, 1 part peat, 2 parts grit - the same mix that I use for the adult bulbs. Sow on the surface and cover with a layer of grit. Keep cool and moist. Germination is typically 6 to 8 weeks, but can vary quite a bit from that.
Paul
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Cheers Paul, thanks as always for the advice.
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no one told me that needed to be started in fall
These Massonia were started in March 2013,
they have a tiny thing in the center, will they bloom this year ?
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Hi rimmer it could be a flower, it is still small, is the grit in the centre? If so you should take it out if you can. They all look great plants, you sure know how to grow these great plants.
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These Massonia were started in March 2013, they have a tiny thing in the center, will they bloom this year ?
Rimmer - those nascent flower buds look just a little too underdeveloped to successfully flower this year. They are, afterall, quite young plants. You may be lucky but they'll probably just sit there now and not grow anymore this season. That's been my experience in the past.
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A good flowering year for my Massonia and all have larger leaves than usual;
M. depressa
M. pustulata,
M. echinata
M. jasminiflora x pustulata - a deliberate cross I made and pleased with it.
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A good flowering year for my Massonia and all have larger leaves than usual;
M. depressa
M. pustulata,
M. echinata
M. jasminiflora x pustulata - a deliberate cross I made and pleased with it.
Now what more could you ask for 8) just so lovely.
Angie :)
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A bulb acquired from Paul Cumbleton this year: Massonia
jasminiflora tenella and Massonia echinata hirsuta which I got from Rannveig Wallis - something has been munching the leaves!
Edit 10th December 2014. Paul Cumbleton has emailed me to tell me that the plant shown here as Massonia jasminiflora (second picture) has been identified as being Massonia tenella.
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A couple of bulbs acquired from Paul Cumbleton this year: Massonia jasminiflora and Massonia echinata - something has been munching the leaves!
Oh thats so annoying, still at least they left the flower :)
Angie :)
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Taken in our low light levels today.
Massonia echinata
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Great plant Arnold
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Thanks you. I'll get a better image if the sun ever comes out.
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Sun out today.
Massonia echinata
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Doesn't look anything like mine!
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I agree, they look quite different.
See here for some similar images.
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Massonia (http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Massonia)
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Great article Arnold
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Doesn't look anything like mine!
Yes, I'm getting confused with these different forms of echinata. Paul identified the one I posted a photo of as hirsuta but it doesn't seem that different to yours, in that both have a pinkish tinge (echinata has white flowers) and dark pollen. But yours came from Paul labelled as echinata...? Perhaps there's a lot of hybrids in circulation?
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Arnold`s has yellow pollen, mine has a pink tinge and blue pollen, so it is either a very variable species or one of them isn't echinata. If Paul is around maybe he could comment?
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Here's three plants that I thought were M. echinata but may be M. hirsuta.
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Ralph I agree that the one labelled echinata is not that, but probably is hirsuta. Sorry if you got that from me wrongly labelled (though I don't actually remember selling any echinata this year). Having learnt how easily the Massonias hybridise I now take care to isolate plants I am propagating and will not be selling in future anything that I have not first flowered to confirm its identity.
Steve, I also think your plants are hirsuta as you suspect.
Paul
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Ralph I agree that the one labelled echinata is not that, but probably is hirsuta. Sorry if you got that from me wrongly labelled (though I don't actually remember selling any echinata this year). Having learnt how easily the Massonias hybridise I now take care to isolate plants I am propagating and will not be selling in future anything that I have not first flowered to confirm its identity.
Steve, I also think your plants are hirsuta as you suspect.
Paul
Thanks for the confirmation, Paul. I also grow the Massonia species in circulation as the ex Addo form (Burdach 11282?). Any idea which species this may be? Looks very similar to the hirsuta I have although I'm not discounting hybridisation!
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Ralph I agree that the one labelled echinata is not that, but probably is hirsuta. Sorry if you got that from me wrongly labelled (though I don't actually remember selling any echinata this year). Having learnt how easily the Massonias hybridise I now take care to isolate plants I am propagating and will not be selling in future anything that I have not first flowered to confirm its identity.
Steve, I also think your plants are hirsuta as you suspect.
Paul
Sorry Paul, I'm an idiot - I got the jasminiflora from you but not the echinata! Now all I have to do is remember where I got it and re-label it as hirsuta.
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OK, I've remembered - I got it from Rannveig Wallis.
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OK, I've remembered - I got it from Rannveig Wallis.
Phew, well at least I'm in good company if the Wallis's are similarly confused about echinata/hirsuta!
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Steve, the material from Addo is indeed hirsuta too.
Ralph,
Glad you remembered it wasn't me you got the wrongly labelled echinata from, I would not like to have supplied wrongly labelled material
cheers
Paul
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Steve, the material from Addo is indeed hirsuta too.
cheers
Paul
Well, it's turning out that I seem to have a lot of bleedin' hirsuta! There must be a laboured joke there about it causing me to tear my hair out but it's late so I'll leave it...
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Hi Steve I've managed to hopefully get hold of some Echinata seeds if I can get them to germinate you can have one mate.
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Hi Steve I've managed to hopefully get hold of some Echinata seeds if I can get them to germinate you can have one mate.
That's kind of you, John. Thanks. To get them to germinate give the pot a temperature differential: warm days and colder nights.
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Cheers steve thanks for the advice
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Soon to have a good supply of seeds. Massonia echinata
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A sculpture or a creature from the deep, Arnold? ;D 8)
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Maggi:
I still like the anemone analogy.
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Maggi:
I still like the anemone analogy.
Oh yes!