Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: johnw on October 09, 2014, 09:05:09 PM
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I wonder if anyone has flowered any 'Rosemary Burnham' hybrids yet and what the results were like? I just came across a pot of 'Green Brush' x 'Rosemary Burnham' bulbs and we just might see some flowers this spring. Now to find the Tramp x RB bulbs......
johnw - +18c with brilliant sunshine, a glorious day.
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The green could be dominant
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I wonder if anyone has flowered any 'Rosemary Burnham' hybrids yet and what the results were like? I just came across a pot of 'Green Brush' x 'Rosemary Burnham' bulbs and we just might see some flowers this spring. Now to find the Tramp x RB bulbs......
johnw - +18c with brilliant sunshine, a glorious day.
John...that is an intriguing cross...can't wait, I know you must be amped about what they will look like.
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Hagen has several virescent snowdrops which he states (in his 2014 Yearbook article) resulted (as seedlings) from placing his foundling 'Grüner Splitter' close to other green snowdrops.
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John...that is an intriguing cross...can't wait, I know you must be amped about what they will look like.
No, not amped at all as I expect something intermediate at very best. I'd be more excited if it were RB x nivalis 'Green Mile' or one of Hagen's green nivalis, then we might well get some added vigour. The Trym & company x RBs will be interesting to watch, then I might get charged.
johnw
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Thanks John,
The point you made is why I think there could be some terrific drops from this cross. The form of the 'Green Brush' flower with the pointed petals is terrific and the color saturation on the tips of the outers is quite solid, so adding even more green to that would make my day. I will remain amped that this cross will produce some fine results. ;D Rick
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I haven't good luck with RB. Happy, when I can list 2 or 3 flowers.
So I have no good poll :(
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Good to know, Hagen. Have you had any success with G. 'Green Brush'? Rick
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Good to know, Hagen. Have you had any success with G. 'Green Brush'? Rick
I don't think my 'Green Brush' lived long enough to set seed . Won't bother with it again .
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I just picked up 'Green Brush' this summer from U.S. supplier, Jerry Fritz' Linden Hill Gardens. The bulbs sure look fat and happy. I am curious if most folks have had good luck growing it, or otherwise as you have sadly, Emma.
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I think 'Green Brush' has had a mixed reception here. It tends to be sold rather more commercially than a typical snowdrop cultivar originating in the UK and perhaps that has lead to a more sceptical 'not invented here' reception. Or perhaps, like many other types of bulb you can buy off the shelf, it isn't intended to be a long-lasting garden variety. Let us know what you think yourself in a few years, Rick.
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I was very disappointed with my initial bulb of Green Brush as there was no green on the outers at all for the first two years. I seem to remember at the time this was not an unusual occurence. However I did get a replacement bulb from the seller which has been really good.
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Thank you Alan and Brian on your additional insights on growth/performance of G. 'Green Brush'. I will hopefully have some experience to share down the road as well. Rick
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I have had "Green Brush" for 3/4 years now and it has been doing well to the extent that I needed to remove and divide them when dormant this year from a small pond basket, sunk in the ground, as they were very crowded. We will see if I have upset the green tips by moving them but I hope not because as I say I did it during dormancy.
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That is encouraging to know, Carole....we'll look forward to hearing from you on how they perform this year. Rick
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Maybe I just got a duff one :-\
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Hagen, I am interested in what you said about Rosemary Burnham as that was going to be the next expensive snowdrop that I invested in. One of my customers also lost hers (not from me). Do you think it is hard to grow? What do other people think? If yes, is there a similar virescent with which you have had better success and which is available in the trade?
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Rosemary Burnham has a bit of a reputation here for making sudden unexplained exits. But it must be relatively easy to twin-scale judging by the numbers that are now becoming commercially available.
I don't think there is a good virescent snowdrop that is also a good doer. If there was one we would all have it and thus not be so willing to pay top dollar to add one to our collection. Hagen's 'Gruner Splitter' sound like a promising candidate but is some way off commercial availability.
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I don't think there is a good virescent snowdrop that is also a good doer. If there was one we would all have it and thus not be so willing to pay top dollar to add one to our collection. Hagen's 'Gruner Splitter' sound like a promising candidate but is some way off commercial availability.
Do you mean in your garden or in England? We have seen lovely photos over the years of viriscent snowdrops, some like 'Green Tear' and 'Hugh Mackenzie' are vigorous garden snowdrops, my 'Rosemary Burnham' is now settled in and increasing well much to my delight. I am sure Kentgardener has quite a few that do well.
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...and of course 'Cowhouse Green' sorry about the focus!
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Do you mean in your garden or in England?
I meant England. When I visit snowdrop gardens or I do not see much in the way of virescent snowdrops. I'm sure there are honourable exceptions and perhaps your garden is one such.
'Green Tear' is expensive to buy and you are fortunate indeed if you have had one long enough to know that it is vigorous; I'm not sure if I have ever even seen 'Hugh Mackenzie'. There is 'Cowhouse Green' but the green there is so pale and blotchy that I do not find it particularly handsome. No, sorry, I was thinking of 'Greenish', 'Cowhouse Green' is pale but much more attractive.
Which one would your recommend to Carolyn, Brian?
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'Green Tear' is expensive to buy and you are fortunate indeed if you have had one long enough to know that it is vigorous; ....I'm not sure if I have ever even seen 'Hugh Mackenzie'.
Which one would your recommend to Carolyn, Brian?
I have seen pictures of the clump (Green Tear) from which they have been sold which is very vigorous. I think Carolyn should see what is available, buy what she fancies and nurture it until it settles in. I always hesitate to recommend a particular snowdrop to someone as it is very much a matter of taste and what is available ,combined with your own garden conditions.
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I've been growing 'Rosemary Burnham' since the late 80's, the original find was made +/-30 years before that. It bulked very well indeed and I was able to pass it along to fellow galathophiles throughout the 90's, seems most of the earliest recipients requested a replacement. Could the first ones shared have been been tired old bulbs? About 2007 there were still circa 50 bulbs in one clump but by August it was reduced to a handful of empty tunics save for one tiny bulb. It would be unfair to blame the cultivar as division was long overdue and I was later prone to digging and passing along only the younger outermost offsets. With a few replenishments from good friends in BC in 2008/9 RB is roaring away again here and the count exceeds 2007 numbers. Over the years many in the UK have reported puzzling losses and I can only suggest planting it where it gets sun, air circulation and spends its dormancy period quite dry as well as avoiding peat. And keep dividing it regularly. Other forces may be at play across the pond, I have problems with the likes of 'S. Arnott', 'John Gray' and 'Straffan' so my remarks should best be taken with a grain of salt.
This all leads to a question that has been in the back of my mind for some time. What is the life expectancy of an individual snowdrop bulb?
johnw - +9c
Rainfall Warning - Issued at 4:39 a.m. AST Wednesday 10 December 2014
Summary
A broad area of low pressure southwest of the Maritimes will remain nearly stationary today and Thursday. Rain at times heavy will persist today and tonight before ending Thursday morning. Total rainfall amounts of 60 to 100 millimetres are expected with locally up to 150 millimetres possible.
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I take your point Brian; "recommend" is too strong. I guess what I was really after is which of the virescents is your favourite? I have always been attracted by pictures of 'Green Mile' with its very pronounced white tip to the green outer petals. But I have never seen it in actuality and cannot afford to buy it.
I used to have a lovely virescent elwesii of my own discovery but two of the three bulbs vanished (probably eaten) and the remaining bulb was chipped but is really struggling to grow back to full size. I think this type displays best against a white background, such as a light covering of snow.
I had no idea there was a 'parent clump' of Green Tear; I had assumed is was propagated artificially as most snowdrops seem to be.
John, some bulbs make offsets but others seem to 'disintegrate' into multiple smaller bulbs that are initially enclosed by the original outer tunic. 'Green Light' did that in the pictures I posted recently. In such cases the original bulb is not identifyable; in fact it may well be 'consumed'. Perhaps it perishes and in effect you are left with only offsets. Or perhaps it just divides; I don't know. If a bulb will do this it can bulk-up very rapidly, as fast as twin-scaling, possibly.
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Alan
Two come to mind, nivalis 'Appleby' and "caucasicus", both from P&M and both of which took more than a dozen years to produce a single offset. My lagodechianus which originated from Thelma Chapman is a perfect example of a disintegrater, it's never flowered.
johnw
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I don't think my 'Green Brush' lived long enough to set seed . Won't bother with it again .
My original two were badly infected with stagonospora and they died soon after trying to flower. Very unhappy with what I received
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Thanks for all the information and the great discussion. I have 'Greenish', which may have died this past summer, it was shriveled when I got it, so I haven't see the flower. I also have 'Cowhouse Green', which is doing quite well. Maybe these are technically virescent, is there a definition? But what I want is
one of each of Hagen's green snowdrops a really green single snowdrop inside and out like 'Rosemary Burnham'. Maybe we could make a list like the one Alan made for early flowering that contains all the known virescent snowdrops as not many names have been mentioned so far. For example, I believe 'Green Tear' sold for the third highest amount on eBay. Are there others that are more in the 50 pound range?
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Rick I will try and remember an update for "Green Brush", they are through both in pots and in the ground so I now only need to check the marks.
I also split 'Rosemary Burnham' this year (4 yrs old) because of overcrowding in the pond basket and they are showing now both in pots and the ground. I am in the habit of pushing seed pods in to the ground near the parent and am waiting for the seedlings of 'Rosemary Burnham' to reach flowering size to see what I get.
Previously good size clumps of both 'Virescens' and 'Viridapice' have simply disappeared on me, fortunately I had placed Viridapice elsewhere but not the Virescens.
I remember being told by 'an expert' some 10 or more years ago, when I was pleased with my clump of 'Sandersii', first given to me by him, that they could simply disappear and have since tried to keep things in more than one place. Admittedly this is not always possible because of lack of both time and space but it does seem to be a good insurance policy. Likewise growing in pond baskets is my defence against moles.
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By 'disintegrate' I did not mean to imply that the bulbs remain too small to flower, although that certainly can happen. I mean, in the best case, a situation like the lower bulb in the picture below. This produced (at least) two flowers and a mass of leaves but all still surrounded by the outer part of the previous year's bulb. So the 'offsets' are internal to the bulb structure rather than external and it is therefore very difficult to know whether or not the bulb from the previous year is still there or has put all its energy into these 'internal offsets' and withered away as a result.
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This thread is about green galanthus, a very lovely theme.
Carolyn, in 2013 I got a chance to visit Sue and Wol Stains in their fantastic garden. I saw a lot of big clumps/tuffs of fine galanthus but one of the best was ROSEMARY BURNHAM. The Staines know the know how to get best results also with RB, also in GB.
Here in my garden I have a big number of different but good Gn virescens. Alan spoke about GRÜNER SPLITTER. This cultivar is a real good doer, every year with a good number of offsets. HAGEN HASTDUNICHTGESEHN is another very unusual virescens and has also a high number of daughterbulbs every year. And in the yearbook I told about some other Gn virescens of mine. In my trial the number of virescens is bigger than 60. But only the best will get names.
But I'm not a nursery man, I'm only a galanthophile.
So the problems of a nursery are'nt mine.
Sorry Carolyn, but European Galanthus and American phytosanitary claims are different ways
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Hagen...a stunning shot of G. 'Rosemary Burnham'.
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This thread is about green galanthus, a very lovely theme.
Carolyn, in 2013 I got a chance to visit Sue and Wol Stains in their fantastic garden. I saw a lot of big clumps/tuffs of fine galanthus but one of the best was ROSEMARY BURNHAM. The Staines know the know how to get best results also with RB, also in GB.
Here in my garden I have a big number of different but good Gn virescens. Alan spoke about GRÜNER SPLITTER. This cultivar is a real good doer, every year with a good number of offsets. HAGEN HASTDUNICHTGESEHN is another very unusual virescens and has also a high number of daughterbulbs every year. And in the yearbook I told about some other Gn virescens of mine. In my trial the number of virescens is bigger than 60. But only the best will get names.
But I'm not a nursery man, I'm only a galanthophile.
So the problems of a nursery are'nt mine.
Sorry Carolyn, but European Galanthus and American phytosanitary claims are different ways
Hagen, Although the reviews are somewhat mixed, I will give 'Rosemary Burnham' a try when I next have access to it. Your photo is beautiful. I hope you didn't think I was hinting for you to send me a snowdrop from Germany despite the restrictions. My aside of crossed out words was intended as a compliment to your beautiful virescents. I just want to know which virescent to buy or trade for when and if I get the chance.
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That is an amazing looking plant and I begin to see how such a strong interest can develop in these virescent snowdrops - they take you in such a new direction. I've heard so much about Wol and Sue's garden but have never visited in snowdrop time - I think you must have to achieve a certain level of wonder about these plants before you are properly prepared to see them grown so well. I don't think Carolyn will be the only one who will look at Hagen's plants with something of the same wonder. Really the only variety we grow is 'Cowhouse Green' which came from a visit to Rod and Jane Leeds, and I agree with Alan this is a good and distinctive plant for its soft colouring.
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I just want to know which virescent to buy or trade for when and if I get the chance.
This is a very interesting discussion, and also I read it with the same thing in mind as Carolyn. If I want to buy one good one, which would it be? 'Cowhouse Green' seems to be not so expensive and available at least in Glen Chantry dormant bulb list. Also I like the ones which set seeds so there is a chance that they will multiply that way also (or are all virescent snowdrops fertile?). I bet even the ones Hagen doesn't think worth a name would be great, if you don't have any, but pictures of 'Green Mile', 'Gruner Splitter' and 'Rosemary Burnham' are something else.
A list of virescent snowdrops (like the list of early ones) would be good. :)
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A list of virescent snowdrops (like the list of early ones) would be good. :)
I'll let somebody else make that list but I don't think there are very many to choose from. Maybe we did not mention the original one, Galanthus nivalis 'Virescens' http://www.snowdropinfo.com/nivalis-virescens.html (http://www.snowdropinfo.com/nivalis-virescens.html) ? And there is 'York Minster' which is early and virescent.
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Wow that clump of Rosemary B, Hagen :o.......I wonder what the secret is of growing it so well.
I bought a bulb of RB last year, hope it decides to like me :-\
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... I also split 'Rosemary Burnham' this year (4 yrs old) because of overcrowding in the pond basket ...
I think I have a picture from last February, prior to the split.
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I think I have a picture from last February, prior to the split.
A beautiful clump in that pond basket, Alan. Curious how long it took to bulk up like that, and how many bulbs it had multiplied to? Looks to be very happy in your garden. Rick
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Here is a list of the cultivars that have been mentioned in this thread with their species if I could determine that. I am updating it as people suggest new cultivars to be included:
'Castle Green Dragon' G. plicatus
‘Cowhouse Green’
'Emerald Isle' G. ikariae
'Federkleid' G. nivalis
'Federschwingen' G. nivalis
'Grakes Green Bells' G. nivalis
'Greek Olive' G. graecus (is this the official name?)
'Green Arrow'
‘Green Brush’ G. elwesii
‘Greenish’ G. nivalis
‘Green Light’ G. nivalis
‘Green Mile’
'Green Shadow' G. plicatus
‘Green Tear’
'Green Zebra' G. nivalis
GRÜNER FRÜHAUFSTEHER ( edit by maggi : Hagens - http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8667.msg234236#msg234236 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8667.msg234236#msg234236) and pix of these and others of Hagen's Greens : http://www.engelmannii.de/bilder/galanthus/bestand/index.htm (http://www.engelmannii.de/bilder/galanthus/bestand/index.htm)
‘Grüner Splitter’ (Hagen’s, not in the trade)
‘Hagen Hastdunichtgesehn’ (Hagen’s, not in trade, couldn’t find a photo)
‘Hugh Mackenzie’ G. nivalis
'Kryptonite' G. elwesii
'Margaret Biddulph' G. elwesii
'Morgana' G. elwesii
‘Rosemary Burnham’ G. elwesii
'Rushmere Green'
'Selina Cords' G. nivalis
‘Virescens’ G. nivalis
'Witchwood' G. nivalis
‘York Minster’ G. elwesii
The flowers range from a full green inner mark with full green shading of the outer segments like ‘Rosemary Burnham’ and ‘Green Tear’ to green-tipped flowers with unremarkable inners like ‘Green Brush’ and ‘Green Light’. To me, the latter flowers are not "virescent" but instead are "green-tipped". If they are, then ‘Viridapice’ should be included.
What is needed is a proper definition of a virescent snowdrop. I could not find one, although the term is used quite frequently. Has anyone ever seen one or is it like the famous definition of obscenity by the US Supreme Court: you know it when you see it? Perhaps Matt B. could let us know if there is a definition and whether it will be included in Snowdrops 2.
I made the list, but I am not the best person to figure out which snowdrops should be on it as I have never seen most of them in person only in photos.
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Much as I love 'Green Light' and remain indifferent to 'Green Brush', they were only mentioned in passing and certainly do not qualify as virescent snowdrops. If you want a definition, I would say that it is a snowdrop where both he inner and outer petals are predominantly green.
I was reminded today that there is already a thread on Green Galanthus here: http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8667.0 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8667.0)
By the way, Rick, that clump of 'Rosemary Burnham' belongs to Carole Smith, not to me. She opens her garden for charity one day in February and I was lucky enough to visit and take some photographs.
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Got it...thanks, Alan.
;D Rick
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Scrolling through Judy’s Snowdrops and the Galanthus Gallery in a very unsystematic fashion, I think we may want to include G. plicatus ‘Castle Green Dragon’ (AKA Castle Green or Castle Dragon?), G. plicatus ‘Green Shadow’, Dimitri’s G. graecus ‘Greek Olive’ (not sure if that’s the name), G. plicatus ‘Anne’s Green Stripe’ (found this by clicking on Castle Dragon on Galanthus Gallery), and possibly ‘Green Arrow’ and ‘Rushmere Green’.
‘Castle Green Dragon’ is the updated name for ‘Anne’s Green Stripe’ and 'Castle Green' is another snowdrop.
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Great discussion this is about my favourites ;D.
Some more to mention are Elwesii Morgana ( Andy Byfield), Niv Federschwingen, Niv Grune Streifenklocke, Niv Apfelgrun,
Niv Federkleid, Niv Witchwood, Elw Margaret Biddulph, Elw Kryptonite and there will proberly a lot more. We all know Hagen
has some great seedlings, also Valentin Wijnen found a lovely green snowdrop as seedling in his garden.
Gerard Oud was given a great green Nivalis found by two ladies. And not to forget the great looking green Plicates from Ruslan. Who knows how many more there are at the moment.
Would be great to plant those near each other and try to get seedlings from them. But of course the big question is how to get those all....Finding them to be available is one, and then the second thing is, when available, they often have a ridiculous price. Although some collectors are more then happy to help out getting those.
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Much as I love 'Green Light' and remain indifferent to 'Green Brush', they were only mentioned in passing and certainly do not qualify as virescent snowdrops. If you want a definition, I would say that it is a snowdrop where both he inner and outer petals are predominantly green.
I was reminded today that there is already a thread on Green Galanthus here: http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8667.0 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8667.0)
I went through that thread but it doesn't attempt to list all the virescent snowdrops. There are photos of a lot more of Hagen's beautiful drops but I understand they are not available. The only others were 'Selina Cords' and 'Grakes Green Bells', which I have added pending agreement on a definition.
Although your definition makes sense, Alan, it is not the only accepted definition based on my readings in this forum and other places so I will leave GL and GB on for now.
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I was of the impression that a " viresecent " snowdrop was one with green markings - of any degree- on the outers. One may have a personal preference for less or more green markings, but is the very presence of green on the outers not enough to warrant the description?
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Thanks for posting the photograph of my Rosemary Birnham Alan.
I bought my single bulb from Wol and Sue four years ago and they appear to have doubled each year, i.e. now 16 bulbs. I guess Wol and Sue have a good form and I am always happy with my purchases from them.
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I was of the impression that a " viresecent " snowdrop was one with green markings - of any degree- on the outers.
That's certainly a definition but that leaves my predominantly green snowdrops lacking a name. The 'original green snowdrop' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galanthus_nivalis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galanthus_nivalis) ) was G. nivalis 'Virescens' so for me that represents the model for what is virescent in a snowdrop, although the term is applied differently to other flowers.
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Carole,
Thank you for those data points on your RB...quite a good doer for you. Way to go. Rick
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I was of the impression that a " viresecent " snowdrop was one with green markings - of any degree- on the outers. One may have a personal preference for less or more green markings, but is the very presence of green on the outers not enough to warrant the description?
That is what I would like cleared up because if any snowdrop with green on the outers is virescent, then the list is huge. And even if virescent means predominantly green inside and out, there are a lot more out there than I expected.
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Great discussion this is about my favourites ;D.
Some more to mention are Elwesii Morgana ( Andy Byfield), Niv Federschwingen, Niv Grune Streifenklocke, Niv Apfelgrun,
Niv Federkleid, Niv Witchwood, Elw Margaret Biddulph, Elw Kryptonite and there will proberly a lot more. We all know Hagen
has some great seedlings, also Valentin Wijnen found a lovely green snowdrop as seedling in his garden.
Gerard Oud was given a great green Nivalis found by two ladies. And not to forget the great looking green Plicates from Ruslan. Who knows how many more there are at the moment.
Thanks for bringing attention to so many more potentially virescent snowdrops. I have added the cultivars that I could actually find in an internet search to the list. Hagen's greens are adequately represented thanks to Maggi. I think 'Grakes Green Bells' is the Wijnen snowdrop and 'Green Brush' is the Oud snowdrop, but what is the G. plicatus from Russia? Let me know if I have gotten this all right.
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In case of doubt I refer to the font of all wisdom on snowdrops: "Snowdrops..." by Bishop, Davis and Grimshaw. I can find no explicit definition of what they consider to constitute a virescent snowdrop but the section on G. nivalis "Virescens" says
For many years the cultivar 'Virescens' was the darkest of any 'all green' snowdrop. Its outer segment markings are unusual in being confined to the basal two-thirds of the segments, and ... they are solidly shaded green. Today, however, although most new cultivars are individually rare, there is an ever-expanding range of virescent clones that include many that improve on the greenness of this once unique snowdrop.
I have underlined the word 'virescent'.
Given that we are approaching the 150th anniversary of strongly green-tipped Galanthus nivalis "Scharlockii" it is clear that the authors of the monograph do not consider green markings of any degree on the outer petals to consitute virescence. Rather they seem to be thinking of a snowdrop that could be broadly described as 'all green' but actually permitting a certain amount of white.
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I've never seen this one in life, but G. ikariae 'Emarald Isle' might well be a candidate for inclusion.
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'Rosemary Burnham' grows very well here. As John W remarked, it did fail in its first introduction - mostly to narcissus fly and by dividing it too quickly and too often. After reintroduction and patience, it is now producing clumps of up to 50 or more flowers, dormant bulbs from such clumps multiplying rapidly in new plantings.
I believe it dislikes drought and heat, preferring cool roots - helping to retain some moisture. It does best in light shade - inhibiting the fly for us and providing more coolth at root level. The biggest clump is in sandy soil enriched with leafmold/compost, planted on the bright but shady north side of a building with lots of other galanthus and herbaceous perennials - all keeping the ground cool.
Perhaps the original bulb came from a population that evolved in cool woodland conditions? This would explain its lack of vigor in areas with either too much sun or with ground penetrating heat. Most large clumps I've seen of are in "woodland" conditions as described above.
Some of us find it and other so-called fussy snowdrops best divided after the initial bulb increases to at around 7 or more mature bulbs. Dividing the first offshoot or even a "lone" double bulb is not always successful for me with many newer cultivars. I now bide my time before division or even repotting, letting vigor - or lack of same - tell me when to divide.
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In case of doubt I refer to the font of all wisdom on snowdrops: "Snowdrops..." by Bishop, Davis and Grimshaw. I can find no explicit definition of what they consider to constitute a virescent snowdrop but the section on G. nivalis "Virescens" says
I have underlined the word 'virescent'.
Given that we are approaching the 150th anniversary of strongly green-tipped Galanthus nivalis "Scharlockii" it is clear that the authors of the monograph do not consider green markings of any degree on the outer petals to consitute virescence. Rather they seem to be thinking of a snowdrop that could be broadly described as 'all green' but actually permitting a certain amount of white.
To your point, Alan, without directly saying it, your citation from the Monograph suggests to me that newer varieties coming about with more green than 'Virescens' would be potential candidates for a new list of green drops, i.e., 'Virescens' could be the baseline and others would need to have more green than 'Virescens'. While the Monograph is not explicit in those terms, 'Virescent' might very well serve as a benchmark galanthus in formulating such a definition.
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It is odd that the term virescent is used a lot in snowdrop circles without being clearly defined anywhere that I can find. Carolyn is right to press us on this issue (although she clearly has her own idea of what virescent constitutes http://www.hardyplant.org/articles/Confessions%20of%20a%20Galanthophile.pdf (http://www.hardyplant.org/articles/Confessions%20of%20a%20Galanthophile.pdf) ). Rick, I agree with your reading of what the Monograph says. But on that basis my original suggested definition of a snowdrop that is predominantly green on both the inner and outer petals would not be far off the mark. Another way of putting this is to say that whilst a typical snowdrop appears white with green marks, a virescent snowdrop looks green with white marks.
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Carolyn,
Valentin Wijnen has a snowdrop that is named 'Grakes Green Bells'. It fits well in this group.
But he also has a seedling that is not named yet, he discovered it last year in his garden.
I will look for some pictures this weekend and post them for you :).
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I bought my single bulb from Wol and Sue four years ago and they appear to have doubled each year, i.e. now 16 bulbs. I guess Wol and Sue have a good form and I am always happy with my purchases from them.
Good to know. I've bought it two or three times and it always dies. I must get it again next year from them
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look here and you can see a lot of greens for your list, your pleasure and your comparison : http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8667.0 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8667.0)
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there you can also find a picture of GRAKES GREEN BELLE, if you only want......
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Another one for the list would be 'Green Zebra' and I have heard tell of 'Jade Feather'.
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I always thought a virescent snowdrop had green on the middle of the outer petals,not just the tips.
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Thanks for the link to Carolyn's article Alan - it's very nice to see snowdrops through another's eyes like that and it is so beautifully written. I like to think of them in the same way in a garden setting with other woodland plants (see '10 Year's On. Celebrating Ten Years of the Limerick Garden Plants Group' - a collection of essays edited by J. Dennison and J. Baker). I can see that the Myddelton House Snowdrop Day this coming year might create some difficult choices but I shall be looking out for a virescent variety to plant near to 'Cowhouse Green' :)
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I always thought a virescent snowdrop had green on the middle of the outer petals,not just the tips.
You and Alan, may well be correct, Loes - but I am sure I am not the only innocent passer-by who just enjoys the flowers and who, when we see a flower with green on the outers on a plant that normally has white outers- we may "assume" that virescent - with its green connotations- applies to those flowers. Something which could do with clarification for those of us less steeped in the white fever, perhaps, to make the subject more accessible.
I suppose "jargon" makes problems in every field!
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Some wisdom there Maggi, in your observation, "Though as we might infer from the quote made earlier, there may be some that are happy for some obfuscation to prevail." :P Rick
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Yes, Rick, I was thinking of the quotes that it takes the ownership of "hundreds of 'drops to make a true galanthophile"and the repeated talk of "true galanthophiles" and "experts" - seems to me there are a lot of folks trying to "keep" this interest to themselves - a regrettable habit that is can be seen to repeated with some growers or other plants too - "I'll give you this plant - but only if you not put it on the show bench"- yes, really!! Thank goodness these people are in the minority!
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It is odd that the term virescent is used a lot in snowdrop circles without being clearly defined anywhere that I can find. Carolyn is right to press us on this issue (although she clearly has her own idea of what virescent constitutes http://www.hardyplant.org/articles/Confessions%20of%20a%20Galanthophile.pdf (http://www.hardyplant.org/articles/Confessions%20of%20a%20Galanthophile.pdf) ).
When I wrote the article (thanks for linking to it Alan and for your kind comment Tim), I thought virescent meant green shading or striping on the outer segments not just a green mark on the tips. However, when I started to consider investing in a virescent, I discovered that I wanted substantial green striping outside and a solid green inner mark---your definition Alan. Then when I decided to make the list of virescents, I found what Alan found: that there is no clear definition and that snowdrops from green-tipped to solid green and everything in between are referred to as virescent.
The list appears at Reply #38, and I have been adding cultivars as members (Richard, Brian, Alan, and Hagen) have suggested them. It would be great to limit the list to cultivars that are available for sale somewhere, but I have no way of determining that. If someone wants to suggest some snowdrops to be purged on that basis that would be great. Brian, I could not find 'Jade Feather', there is a G. nivalis 'Jade' with green shading on the outers.
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At the time when we wrote Snowdrops our understanding of the term virescent (ie shaded green) applied to a slightly broader spectrum of cultivars in terms of the markings on both whorls of segments so at the time included things like 'Cowhouse Green' and 'Greenish' and would also have been used to describe the state of greenness seen in more recent cultivars such as 'Hugh Mackenzie' and 'Wichwood' and many others. But as examples these plants have been chosen carefully as they illustrate a sort of intermediate what, these days, between I regard as true virescents on a sliding scale that exists almost as a continuum through to straight forwards 'green tips'. Back in 2001 this continuum didn't really exist as their were relatively few cultivars in which to observe it. Only with the huge influx of such cultivars with their often subtle differences in marking on both segment types has its existence become visible but only when you stand back and look at the markings of both segment types in a complete spectrum of variants within a species or even more broadly than that.
These days, with our massively broader range of snowdrops with green marked outer segments, the emergent pattern means that the sensible use of the term virescent is subtly different. Alan hit the nail on the head by referencing the original clone 'Virescens' which fits perfectly with what what I think of these days as truly virescent snowdrops. There is an almost perfect relationship between entirely green inner segments, save for the margin and a slightly paler zone (though not always) almost at the base and the occurrence of outer segment markings which run from the base of the segment, however far towards the apex. This feature is not always apparent in a mature flower as in the course of the segments elongating, as they do, from the base, the chloroplasts (green cells) become less densely spaced and therefore less visible, the paler resulting green colouration, more difficult to see. To summarise, I think that the term virescent would be sensibly conserved only for use for plants with show this feature, also seen in the likes of 'Green Mile' and a good many of the superb clones Hagen has been showing.
This leaves us to consider the clones which sit somewhere in the middle for which, I believe, the 'type' could be regarded as G. nivalis 'Greenish' for which we currently lack a proper term. I've tended to refer to them in talks and so on, as Part Virescent, and more recently as Intermediate greens or simply as Intermediates in the context of their greenness. In these, the inner segment markings are usually not simply confined to the inner segment apex as a straight forward V or U mark, but often cover a larger area, running to the base but critically are not solid and of a single shade of green but, to varying degrees, diffuse, like the marking in G. John Gray'. In these plants their is a strong association with outer segment markings that concentrate around the central portion of the segment, neither running to the base like a virescent, nor being confined towards the apex like a green tip.
But its important to point out here that, whilst based upon what happens in nature, this sort of classification (or forming of artificial pigeon holes) also represents what usually happens. In other words there are exceptions that don't quite fit in any of this trio without a little explanation. But it does, at least achieve, a language for discussing plants with the most characters in common in context with each other.
Interestingly when the gene mutation for outer segment greenness arises in species known for their predominantly apical inner segment and they produce truly virescent seedlings, the outer segment markings are always associated with an inner segment marking that runs to the base.
I hope this wasn't too long winded!
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Hi Matt, thanks for this detailed explanation. I see that I have fallen into a trap of making assumptions
( something one should never do, I know! ::) ) and got quite the wrong end of this green stick. Very useful to have this clarification from you for a term that I think may have been confusing quite a few of us.
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Very helpful
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many thanks,Matt !!!
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Matt, here in Germany we use your kind of classification. But the world is wide.......
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Very helpful Matt, and your point about giving us the language to wrap around these ideas is particularly insightful. Rick
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Thanks from me too, Matt. No pressure, but I am eagerly awaiting the publication of 'Snowdrops 2' where I'm sure issues such as this will be dealt with.
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I hope this wasn't too long winded!
Thanks so much, Matt, for answering my plea for a definition, and one that makes perfect sense after spending so much time looking at green snowdrops over the last week. Your response was only as long as it needed to be. Now I just need to find the time to apply it to my list.
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What a lucky bunch we are to have the Galanthus Cognescenti so involved and willing to share their vast knowledge! Mind you were not the only lovers of a particular Genus on this site to be so blessed.
johnw - +5c, rainfall well past 4"..........low pressure system stuck fast here.
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Brian, I could not find 'Jade Feather', there is a G. nivalis 'Jade' with green shading on the outers.
Thank you Matt, your insight is greatly appreciated by us all I'm sure.
Carolyn you won't find 'Jade Feather' it is a recent find and there are very few in existence at the moment, I included it for completeness. Hopefully in three or four years time it will be available from somewhere (?) and we'll have a photo of it from whoever is lucky enough to get it.
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At the time when we wrote Snowdrops our understanding of the term virescent (ie shaded green) applied to a slightly broader spectrum of cultivars in terms of the markings on both whorls of segments so at the time included things like 'Cowhouse Green' and 'Greenish' and would also have been used to describe the state of greenness seen in more recent cultivars such as 'Hugh Mackenzie' and 'Wichwood' and many others. But as examples these plants have been chosen carefully as they illustrate a sort of intermediate what, these days, between I regard as true virescents on a sliding scale that exists almost as a continuum through to straight forwards 'green tips'. Back in 2001 this continuum didn't really exist as their were relatively few cultivars in which to observe it. Only with the huge influx of such cultivars with their often subtle differences in marking on both segment types has its existence become visible but only when you stand back and look at the markings of both segment types in a complete spectrum of variants within a species or even more broadly than that.
These days, with our massively broader range of snowdrops with green marked outer segments, the emergent pattern means that the sensible use of the term virescent is subtly different. Alan hit the nail on the head by referencing the original clone 'Virescens' which fits perfectly with what what I think of these days as truly virescent snowdrops. There is an almost perfect relationship between entirely green inner segments, save for the margin and a slightly paler zone (though not always) almost at the base and the occurrence of outer segment markings which run from the base of the segment, however far towards the apex. This feature is not always apparent in a mature flower as in the course of the segments elongating, as they do, from the base, the chloroplasts (green cells) become less densely spaced and therefore less visible, the paler resulting green colouration, more difficult to see. To summarise, I think that the term virescent would be sensibly conserved only for use for plants with show this feature, also seen in the likes of 'Green Mile' and a good many of the superb clones Hagen has been showing.
This leaves us to consider the clones which sit somewhere in the middle for which, I believe, the 'type' could be regarded as G. nivalis 'Greenish' for which we currently lack a proper term. I've tended to refer to them in talks and so on, as Part Virescent, and more recently as Intermediate greens or simply as Intermediates in the context of their greenness. In these, the inner segment markings are usually not simply confined to the inner segment apex as a straight forward V or U mark, but often cover a larger area, running to the base but critically are not solid and of a single shade of green but, to varying degrees, diffuse, like the marking in G. John Gray'. In these plants their is a strong association with outer segment markings that concentrate around the central portion of the segment, neither running to the base like a virescent, nor being confined towards the apex like a green tip.
But its important to point out here that, whilst based upon what happens in nature, this sort of classification (or forming of artificial pigeon holes) also represents what usually happens. In other words there are exceptions that don't quite fit in any of this trio without a little explanation. But it does, at least achieve, a language for discussing plants with the most characters in common in context with each other.
Interestingly when the gene mutation for outer segment greenness arises in species known for their predominantly apical inner segment and they produce truly virescent seedlings, the outer segment markings are always associated with an inner segment marking that runs to the base.
I have taken the original list at Reply # 38 and divided it into the categories set forth in Matt’s definition of virescent (quoted above so everyone can look at it and the list together). I have seen only a handful of these cultivars in person so I would be grateful for comments, corrections, and additions to the list.
Virescent (almost entirely green inners and outer shading running from the base):
Type: G. nivalis ‘Virescens’
Alpha Series (photos from Ru later in the thread)
'Castle Green Dragon' G. plicatus (formerly ‘Anne’s Green Stripe’)
'Emerald Isle' G. ikariae (not sure from the photos, this might be a cultivar where the outer shading fades as the flower matures)
'Grakes Green Bells' G. nivalis (Valentin Wijnen)
'Greek Olive' G. graecus (Dimitri, is this the official name?)
‘Green Mile’
'Green Shadow' G. plicatus
‘Green Tear’
‘Green Zebra’ G. nivalis
GRÜNER FRÜHAUFSTEHER ( edit by maggi : Hagens - http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8667.msg234236#msg234236 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8667.msg234236#msg234236) and pix of these and others of Hagen's Greens : http://www.engelmannii.de/bilder/galanthus/bestand/index.htm (http://www.engelmannii.de/bilder/galanthus/bestand/index.htm)
‘Grüner Splitter’ (Hagen’s, not in the trade?)
'Kryptonite' G. elwesii
'Margaret Biddulph' G. elwesii
'Morgana' G. elwesii
‘Rosemary Burnham’ G. elwesii
‘York Minster’ G. elwesii
Intermediates/Part Virescent (diffuse inner mark not confined to apex and central outer mark not confined to apex):
Type: G. nivalis ‘Greenish’
‘Cowhouse Green’
'Green Arrow'
‘Hugh Mackenzie’ G. nivalis
'Rushmere Green'
'Selina Cords' G. nivalis (hard to see inners in photos)
'Witchwood' G. nivalis
Green-tipped: (outer mark on apex and typical inner mark at apex):
Type: G. nivalis ‘Viridapice’?
'Federkleid' G. nivalis
'Federschwingen' G. nivalis
‘Green Light’ G. nivalis
Not sure where to put:
‘Green Brush’ G. elwesii (solid inner mark but outer mark on apex only)
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Not sure where to put:
‘Green Brush’ G. elwesii (solid inner mark but outer mark on apex only)
Since it's not that unusual for G. elwesii to have a solid inner mark I would not have any qualms about putting it with the green-tipped ones. I would then 'forget' about those because there are more than you can count! But well-done, Carolyn, for sorting out the others.
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here you can see the three groups with different green: http://www.engelmannii.de/bilder/startseite/snowdropclassification.jpg (http://www.engelmannii.de/bilder/startseite/snowdropclassification.jpg)
It was part of my snowdrop lecture at GALA2013
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I like your classification system, Hagen, and it deserves to be more widely adopted. But do you mean we should ignore the inner marks when classifying the greens?
Also, why has poculiform become 'poculiforme' with an 'e' on the end (which appears to be Portuguese)?
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Always a pleasure, Alan.
With other galanthophiles' I'm able to speak about snowdrops.
But we, we speak about letters.
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Oh, but it's the same thing really, Hagen. If you're not interested in the detail then all snowdrops look alike. But if you pay attention to whether a snowdrop has green marks on the end of the outer petals then you also pay attention to a word with an 'e' on the end - or I do, at least.
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It must be remembered that this forum is populated by folks from all over the globe. Only some of us have English as a first language. Many do not have it as even a second language, but perhaps as a third or fourth.
Different languages address words differently and so there may be occasions when, for instance, poculiform is rendered as poculiforme - this is a reflection of the international nature of the forum. In the same way as in English we use colour, while others use color ........ it's natural variation, but just in words, not plants!
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At the time when we wrote Snowdrops our understanding of the term virescent (ie shaded green) applied to a slightly broader spectrum of cultivars in terms of the markings on both whorls of segments so at the time included things like 'Cowhouse Green' and 'Greenish' and would also have been used to describe the state of greenness seen in more recent cultivars such as 'Hugh Mackenzie' and 'Wichwood' and many others. But as examples these plants have been chosen carefully as they illustrate a sort of intermediate what, these days, between I regard as true virescents on a sliding scale that exists almost as a continuum through to straight forwards 'green tips'. Back in 2001 this continuum didn't really exist as their were relatively few cultivars in which to observe it. Only with the huge influx of such cultivars with their often subtle differences in marking on both segment types has its existence become visible but only when you stand back and look at the markings of both segment types in a complete spectrum of variants within a species or even more broadly than that.
These days, with our massively broader range of snowdrops with green marked outer segments, the emergent pattern means that the sensible use of the term virescent is subtly different. Alan hit the nail on the head by referencing the original clone 'Virescens' which fits perfectly with what what I think of these days as truly virescent snowdrops. There is an almost perfect relationship between entirely green inner segments, save for the margin and a slightly paler zone (though not always) almost at the base and the occurrence of outer segment markings which run from the base of the segment, however far towards the apex. This feature is not always apparent in a mature flower as in the course of the segments elongating, as they do, from the base, the chloroplasts (green cells) become less densely spaced and therefore less visible, the paler resulting green colouration, more difficult to see. To summarise, I think that the term virescent would be sensibly conserved only for use for plants with show this feature, also seen in the likes of 'Green Mile' and a good many of the superb clones Hagen has been showing.
This leaves us to consider the clones which sit somewhere in the middle for which, I believe, the 'type' could be regarded as G. nivalis 'Greenish' for which we currently lack a proper term. I've tended to refer to them in talks and so on, as Part Virescent, and more recently as Intermediate greens or simply as Intermediates in the context of their greenness. In these, the inner segment markings are usually not simply confined to the inner segment apex as a straight forward V or U mark, but often cover a larger area, running to the base but critically are not solid and of a single shade of green but, to varying degrees, diffuse, like the marking in G. John Gray'. In these plants their is a strong association with outer segment markings that concentrate around the central portion of the segment, neither running to the base like a virescent, nor being confined towards the apex like a green tip.
But its important to point out here that, whilst based upon what happens in nature, this sort of classification (or forming of artificial pigeon holes) also represents what usually happens. In other words there are exceptions that don't quite fit in any of this trio without a little explanation. But it does, at least achieve, a language for discussing plants with the most characters in common in context with each other.
Interestingly when the gene mutation for outer segment greenness arises in species known for their predominantly apical inner segment and they produce truly virescent seedlings, the outer segment markings are always associated with an inner segment marking that runs to the base.
Seems some more people need to read Matt's words ! There is an article in The Garden for January 2015 where 'Cowhouse Green' - which I now recognise as more of an intermediate 'drop,since the green marking on the outers are only on the lower parts- is called "virescent" ....... ::)
They'll catch up eventually, I suppose!
I'll add as an aside that the pictures in the article are less than stunning. :(
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I think the thing is Maggi we all understand snowdrops in part from our own experience of growing them, as much as from a more authoritative one that comes from others who know a good bit more. I only grow 'Cowhouse Green', so I regard this as virescent and so I imagine would most people, since they would compare it with a 'normal' snowdrop. As soon as you start comparing within a group of similar plants then the discrimination becomes more acute. This is not too different to how we assign names to plants in general - the reason is so we can talk about them and understand them more, but it is not an end in itself. 'A rose by any other name... '
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So, have I got this right? A non-virescent snowdrop is white with green bits, a virescent snowdrop is green with white bits?
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I don't know Ralph? What do you think :-\ ;) (I should add that now I want to grow more virescent snowdrops so this Forum has worked its magic).
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I find the green snowdrops very appealing.......& will try to get my little brain around Matt's valuable contribution during my morning coffee break.
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May be considered a green color base petal?
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Stunners both, Ru. If I am tracking your ID on your photos correctly, I am guessing both are plicatus. Rick
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Yes :)
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Ru - Alpha Olga is one very exceptional snowdrop.
johnw - +4c, partial sun
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Thank you, John.
This year has been successful.
There is reason to think.
There are good parents for future hybrids!
Very interesting genes:
Soft green color.
As well as.
I really liked the green stripes on a very light green background.
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There are very aesthetic greens.
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very nice !!!!
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Beautiful! :)
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Some stunning snowdrops there Ru, thanks for sharing them with us. Will they ever be available to the likes of us?
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Ru, what remarkable and exciting plants - as the saying goes you have us green with envy :) The wild colonies of snowdrops in the Ukraine must be completely fascinating to explore.
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Ru, great fun for us to see all of these green beauties. This entire thread has elevated the "need" for more green in the garden and these remarkable finds heighten the bar. Congratulations. Rick
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I am speechless - absolutely beautiful drops, Ru! ((How can you bear to pull off the petals... ;))
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Thank you, colleagues!
Brian, some of these bulbs already in the collections of the united Kingdom, Germany, the Netherlands :).
Treasures should see many :).
Bolinopsis, I got a lot of pollen of them (Two recent photos) :))
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Whether we consider them green? :)
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Some fantastic pictures of great snowdrops Ruslan. Thank you for posting, makes the day a little lighter with all the dark weather
we have at the moment. Will the rain ever stop........ :-\
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Thank you, colleagues!
Brian, some of these bulbs already in the collections of the united Kingdom, Germany, the Netherlands :).
Treasures should see many :)
My, there are surely some very lucky people if they have such flowers
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My I wonder what 10 more years will bring? Between Germany, the Ukraine and the UK things are getting whipped to a ferverish pitch.
johnw - +4c & grey.
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Hmm?? John??
English ends here ;D
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John, it does get a bit overwhelming doesn't it :-\ For me this little arrangement from last winter may have one or two virescent varieties added to it over the coming year but it is this diversity that is so attractive in the garden, and also the real charm of the natural species. The naturalised snowdrops down in the woods near to us don't have any of this variety but are far more beautiful in many ways... (I like it as the garden slowly develops like this with bigger drifts and the other woodland species to come, but we are lucky to have a largish garden).
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My I wonder what 10 more years will bring? Between Germany, the Ukraine and the UK things are getting whipped to a ferverish pitch.
We will all to enjoy new and old snowdrops. After 10 years, and twenty. Policy change. We will look at the flowers and remember .... Then we will leave, and the flowers remain.
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How true Tim & Ru!
Still awed by the simplest that brave the weather here in the North Atlantic.
johnw
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Never heard what ferverish pitch is???
Now i know it and understand you.
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What wonderful green snowdrops!
An exciting future awaits all of us snowdrop lovers as & when these green beauties become more available.
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That is encouraging to know, Carole....we'll look forward to hearing from you on how they perform this year. Rick
The green tips are still there on 'Green Brush" so they do not appear to have resented the move.
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Glad to know Carole...any photos would be welcome. Rick
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[attachimg=1]
Glad to know Carole...any photos would be welcome. Rick
Well I will try and post a picture of Green Brush - if it works it will be a first for me!
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Thank you Carole, a beautiful photo. G. 'Green Brush' looks to be thriving for you. Rick
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Thank you Carole, a beautiful photo. G. 'Green Brush' looks to be thriving for you. Rick
Thanks Rick - I have to admit I 'phoned my son to get that posted but hope I have the hang of it now - I 'phones seem to take a reasonable picture.
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Well I will try and post a picture of Green Brush - if it works it will be a first for me!
Well done Carole - your son has got you started beautifully- hope there's no stopping you now! 8)
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Well done Carole - your son has got you started beautifully- hope there's no stopping you now! 8)
Thanks Maggi changed JPG to jpg and it worked - so simple once you know.
Oops apologies for that "e" - gone now.