Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Specific Families and Genera => Pleione and Orchidaceae => Topic started by: jonathan.wild on January 21, 2008, 04:52:53 PM

Title: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: jonathan.wild on January 21, 2008, 04:52:53 PM
As a new 'poster' on this forum - firstly a big HELLO to all you fellow Pleione addicts!
I've been growing a small collection of Pleione for a number of years now and I fancy having a go at a bit of (very!) amateur hybridising.
I realise that its not easy but I would like to add another dimension to this very interesting hobby.
Can anyone point me in the right direction in terms of literature etc as I would like to get on with the research now - before the flowers start to appear!
Look forward to a bit of sage advise!!
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Maggi Young on January 21, 2008, 05:09:02 PM
A very warm welcome to you, Jonathon. I believe it is always great fun to take an interest a stage further, as you plan with your pleiones....
you should certainly find lots of help around here, though not from me! :-X
Good luck and don't forget to keep us posted on your progress... :)
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on January 21, 2008, 05:25:17 PM
Hi Jonathan !

Always good to see a new Pleione fan on the Forum.

I don't hybridise myself and probably some other Forumists will be able to offer you further advice.
For as far as you don't already have it in your posession, the monograph by Phillip Cribb and Ian Butterfield "The Genus Pleione" is very informative on hybridisation and growing Pleione from seed.
If you don't have it already, you can obtain it from the SRGC bookshop.

I hope I've been of some assistance and do look forward to seeing your pix of Pleione on this forum shortly.
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on January 22, 2008, 01:07:32 PM
Hi Jonathan,
Could you tell us a bit more about what exactly you want to know? - for example, do you know how to pollinate a Pleione? And do you mean you want to do the seedraising yourself or do you intend to send them to a lab? I've been doing my own hybridising for 10 years now and can share my experiences as appropriate

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: jonathan.wild on January 22, 2008, 05:19:41 PM
Hi Luc and Paul,

Thanks for the very rapid response - yes I have got the book Luc - I guess I'm looking for a bit more of an 'arm around the shoulder' and a bit of an insight from someone who has done it before!
Paul - you are the obvious expert in all this and I suppose if I can extract any tips, shortcuts or good 'steers' then they would be much appreciated.
If this may seem naive then please bear with me; what I want to acheive is some simple crosses of my hybrids and species as they come into flower. I don't really want to get involved with storing pollen at this stage (unless you tell me otherwise!) and would like to send the pods to someone who can germinate the seeds for me - any suggestions? It would be nice to think I could do that one day.. but from small acorns as they say!
I appreciate that a lot of the more 'simple' crosses have already been achieved so again I'd appreciate advice on how to choose something 'new'.
I'm sure you could write essays (or even a book?!) on this very topic - I don't want to waste your time...
Maybe you could offer enthusiasts such as me a 'masterclass' in raising new hybrids - I'm sure like me there would be many people who would be willing to reimburse you for a little of the knowledge?!!
Look forward to hearing from you.
Cheers!
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on January 24, 2008, 07:17:10 AM
Hi Jonathan,
Firstly I must say I am really pleased that you want to make some new hybrids. While there thousands of Phalaenopsis hybrids and other orchids, comparatively little work has been done on Pleiones so here is a genus where anyone could still make an important contribution. There are - at current count - only 231 named (registered) Pleione hybrids in existence. Only 19 people contributed to these, of which six only did one each. Ian Butterfield is alone responsible for 108 of them! Even the primary hybrids (i.e. a pure species crossed with a pure species) are poorly represented - of the possible 271 of these that could be done, only 52 have actually been done. So, plenty of scope to aim at!

To get you started, the first step is to pollinate some plants and obtain some seed. I have just added a page to my website which shows - with pictures - exactly how to do this (I put it there because it would have been a bit long to put here). Go to www.pleione.info and select "Pleiones from seed" from the menu on the left. So far, the pollination bit is the only thing there, but I will in the future add more information. As for which crosses have already been done, see the hybrid list also on my website. Of course, as just a list this isn't easy to search. I have an Excel file with the full list in and, assuming you are familiar with Excel, this can be searched easily usinf the sort and filter functions to quickly see if any particular cross has been registered. If you would like a copy of this file let me know and I will send it. You will of course need to keep it up to date as new hybrids are registered - you can download the updated lists on a regular basis from the RHS website at http://www.rhs.org.uk/Learning/publications/pubs_journals_orchid_hybrid.asp

Storing pollen does give you more options - you can for example store early flowering ones to put on to late flowering ones, or autumn flowering ones to put on to Spring flowering ones. Just remove the pollinia and put them in a small tube. I leave them in a warm room for a day or so to ensure they are dry, then just pop them in the fridge for a few weeks, or in the freezer for longer term storage. To get someone to sow your seed for you, I suggest you contact Ian Butterfield and ask him who he uses. I will write more when I have more time.

Paul
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: jonathan.wild on January 24, 2008, 09:55:24 AM
Fantastic Paul!   I really appreciate the trouble you've taken with this - and I'm sure a lot of other people are as well!
It would appear that the world is your oyster as far as possible crosses is concerned so I think I'll wait and see what inspires me as they come into flower. As the pollen storage doesn't seem to cause a problem I think I'll give that a go as well - if I didn't then I think it would limit my options a little too much.
Thanks for the moment Paul - will let you know what happens.........!
Regards

Jonathan Wild
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on January 24, 2008, 03:37:10 PM
Paul,

I just read the above and had a look at the new page on your website. Great stuff !  Marvelous demonstration. Even I understand it !  ;D

I think I've now been contaminated and I'll just give it a go this season.  ::)
Watch this space in 5 or 6 years when my first hybrids make their appearance... ;D
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on January 24, 2008, 03:38:52 PM
Oops - I forgot something.
Thanks for launching this discussion Jonathan !  :D
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Maggi Young on January 24, 2008, 04:58:59 PM
I must echo what Luc says about your pollination page, Paul....perfect pix, clearly explained... superb !

I do not doubt that there will be many learning a great deal from your pages and this discussion. Thanks!
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: jeff bagnall on November 29, 2009, 10:42:08 AM
As an old grower of many, so called, difficult plants I am interested in growing pleiones from seed as last year 3 or 4 plants set seed uninvited (in a cold green house) it could be that these are self fertile or that a bee has done it for me.   Anyway I distributed the seed under my fruit trees more in hope than anticipation.   After reading the items under "simple glove box to sow orchids...." I have decided that I might try.   I made an electric propogator  30+ years ago and it still works well so temperature control is no problem, and I am fairly handy with tools but I would like to correspond with someone to guide me through any pitfalls and then I will need advice with desired temperature, where to by agar and the various chemicals and if I need instruments to check pH etc.   I have 70+ pots of pleiones, mainly small bulbils, both species and hybrids growing in a well ventilated 6 X 8 aliminium house with shading which I slot in during summer.
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Maggi Young on November 29, 2009, 02:25:00 PM
A warm welcome to you, Jeff.  I think it is an exciting project  you are planning and I am sure that Paul and others will have lots to discuss with you....I will look forward to hearing how you get on.  8)
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: karel_t on November 29, 2009, 08:15:16 PM
Jonathan, I cross fingers to your zeal. I found, the pleione hybridisation is very simple and a home sowing with basic equipments is easy.
Here is one of my jars with protocorms from October's home sowing (five weeks ago).
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Tomas on November 29, 2009, 09:21:54 PM
Very nice, Karel.
 ;D
T.
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: karel_t on February 04, 2010, 02:28:11 PM
One week after the first replanting they have 5 mm leaves.
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Pieter on February 06, 2010, 07:55:24 AM
Karel T, that is wonderfull.

Do you do the complete seedraising at home?

I am thinking about making some crosses myself but I don't have the courage to sow and replate the seeds and protocorms. Is this a tricky job to do?
I will probebly start with a laboratry that does seedraising but I am not sure how the full procces goes.
You deliver them the seed or the seedpod and they sow two motherflask. After that you can chose howmuch flasks with 15, 20 or 25 protocorms you want from the replate. This is where it is not clear for me.
What can you expect from one seedpod? If the cross you made is verry variable it would be best the chose for a replate with more protocorms than if there is verry little variation. But if a large number of the seedlings exctualy grow in to flowering size bulbs, you need a lot of space.
So what is a good number of protocorms to be kept over from a new cross?

Greetings 
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Eric Locke on February 08, 2010, 12:06:25 PM
Taking things on further from Karel"s protocorms. Hopefully this will give further encouragement for others to have a go.
These are two of my first crosses made in the spring of 2007 and have had one years growth out of flask.
Cross one has produces many plants ranging from very small ,to bulbs that should reach flowering size after this seasons growth.
Cross two only produced the five seedlings shown and I was lucky that all survived the first year. These should take a further two seasons minimum to flower.
Other crosses produced results in between examples shown.
Loses can be quite high for this first season out of flask.

Eric
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on February 08, 2010, 12:59:00 PM
Very interesting Eric !  ;)
Fascinating to see what a huge difference there is between bulbs that have germinated all at the same time.
I wonder if in future, the "fast" growers will prove to be the fastest multipliers as well ??
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Eric Locke on February 08, 2010, 01:04:57 PM
Very interesting Eric !  ;)
Fascinating to see what a huge difference there is between bulbs that have germinated all at the same time.
I wonder if in future, the "fast" growers will prove to be the fastest multipliers as well ??

This is quite possible Luc but they might not turn out to be the best clones as I understand, often the best come later.

Eric
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on February 08, 2010, 03:29:51 PM
Hi Pieter,
I would always choose the higher number of protocorms (25) in a flask unless your space is very limited. Some of them will nearly always die anyway in their first year out of flask so you end up with less. If you really are limited with space, then I would choose fewer protocorms if you have done a primary hybrid (which is a pure species x another pure species) and more if you have crossed two hybrids. This is because you tend to get less variation from a primary cross, but more variation from a more complex cross.

Eric is right - the most vigorous growers are not always the most attractive ones, but this is quite variable. Sometimes you wait ages to get a poor result, other times it is quite the opposite. And the time from first pollinating to seeing your first flower can be quite variable. I thought it would be useful for those thinking of trying hybridising for themselves to see what the timing can be like. I have analysed the results of the 48 hybrids that have so far flowered from my own crosses. The number of years from pollinating the parent to seeing the first flower came out as follows:

4 of them took 4 years
15 of them took 5 years
15 of them took 6 years
8 of them took 7 years
5 of them took 8 years
1 of them took 9 years

I keep them 2 years in flask, so you can take 2 years off these figures if you want the time from de-flasking to first flower. You will see that the majority take 5 to 6 years from pollination to flower (= 3 to 4 years from de-flasking to flower).

The one that took 9 years was not worth the wait!! :(

Paul
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: karel_t on February 08, 2010, 06:04:49 PM
Hi Pieter,
Yes, I've done all the process of sowing and replanting at home, in a simple sterile box in my bathroom. It is really quite easy, if you use commercial medium (I use ORCHIMAX - co. Duchefa, Ltd.).
I can agree with all what Paul and Eric have written but sometime is very difficult to separate a single protocorms from primary sowing flask. Sometime is the seedling really overcrowded. So I only rip the seedling to the smaller pieces and replant them to the fresh medium. Then I will separate them during second replanting.
Karel.
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Pieter on February 09, 2010, 11:50:00 AM
Thank you all for the info.

Eric

That is spectacular to see. Such a difference between to crosses. Is this also done at home or do you  make use of seed sowing services?
That first cross produced a massive number of seedlings. What do you do with these once they are flowering size and are not the result you had hoped for? Do you just trow them away? If you follow the advice from Brian Ritterhausen in his book, you should trow away the biggest and strongest seedlings before replating. He says that these are often not the best and can have deformed flowers. Any experience with this?


Paul

Your information is very interesting. This is not the kind of knowledge you find in books or on the internet. Can we expect a book by the hand of Paul Cumbleton in the future? :)
If so many seedlings don’t make it the first year out of flask it would be better to get an as large as possible number of seedlings? Considering the available space and finances.
You keep them two years in flask. Is that after the replate? Do the young plants need a winter rest when they are growing in vitro or can you let them continue to grow?


Karel T

Can you find all the supply’s needed on the internet or are some simply found in nurseries or in a pharmacy?
The sowing medium you suggest, do you buy this already in jars or is this also something that you do yourself?


When I was still in collage (about 13y ago) we did some in vitro sowing and replating. But this was mainly with Oncidiums witch  produce large plants and in a fully equipped laboratory. I learned how once but don’t have materials. Maybe I should try it some day to do some home sowing.

Greetings     
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on February 09, 2010, 01:38:56 PM
Hi Pieter,
Yes, if space etc allow I would get as many seedlings as practically possible. However, I did not want to give the impression that a LOT of seedlings die in their first year - just that SOME do die, but the majority make through OK.
When flasking I used to replate twice - the first a few weeks after germination. They stay in this flask until the end of the first year in flask and then I did give them a winter rest - in the fridge where there was space. I then took them out and replated a second time on to a stronger medium and they stay in here for the second year. These flasks once more go into the fridge for winter, then after that I remove them from flask to grow on as normal. Doing this you end up with bigger baby bulbs which stand a better chance of surviving when you take them out of flask.

As for a book....this has actually been on my mind to do for a while now. If enough of you prod me then I guess I will have to consider it more seriously!

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on February 09, 2010, 02:23:05 PM
Below are some images of Pleione that were flasked last October/November. Some have been reflasked but will need thinning out soon. All these are Species not Hybrids and I'm missing albiflora and coronaria if anyone has any seed? I will of course return the favour if the seed is viable.

These are in no particular order.

Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Eric Locke on February 09, 2010, 07:36:19 PM
Thank you all for the info.

Eric

That is spectacular to see. Such a difference between to crosses. Is this also done at home or do you  make use of seed sowing services?
That first cross produced a massive number of seedlings. What do you do with these once they are flowering size and are not the result you had hoped for? Do you just trow them away? If you follow the advice from Brian Ritterhausen in his book, you should trow away the biggest and strongest seedlings before replating. He says that these are often not the best and can have deformed flowers. Any experience with this?


Hi Pieter

Yes I use a seed sowing service as I have not the time or space to do this myself. It is a much more expensive way of doing this, but I consider it a price worth paying.
I have so far over twenty crosses in various stages and intend to add to this each year.
I send off my seedpods around mid November and collect the flasks back fifteen months later, around early Feb. These are still in growth then so I let these go dormant and replant them in compost around early April.
I will see how the crosses turn out in time but I am sure others will be interested in them even if they turn out to be nothing special . I don"t think throwing them away will be an option and certainly not for my first hybrids.

Photo shown is a flask collected this time last year and the plants just starting to go dormant.


Eric
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on February 09, 2010, 08:05:41 PM
Hi Eric

Are the photos of bulbs above a good indication of what came out of the flask and then one year in soil?

A German friend registered some new hybrids last year ( I did the paperwork for him) but failed on a couple because they got registered days before by someone else.

One thing that must be very disappointing is having a new cross registered days before you are going to register the same thing when it takes as long as Paul mentioned above to get from seed to flower.

Might try some hybrids myself next this year but it would be nice to know what others have in the pipeline so I could do something else.

David
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Eric Locke on February 09, 2010, 09:30:49 PM

Hi Dave

Photo of the bulbs from cross one, are the entire survivors from the three flasks I ordered from this cross after one years growth in compost. Other crosses produced less survivors and a smaller variation in the bulb size.
I always order either two or three flasks of all my crosses, but sometimes poor germination, as in cross two photo gives me no choice.
With the number of cross permutations, most will still not have been registered by the time they reach flowering size although this is sure to happen sometimes . One of my crosses that is around two years away from flowering was registered (also by a German grower) this year which is a shame . I am however expecting very different results from this due to the very unusuall parent I have used . I am still looking forward to seeing the results even though I will not be able to register it.
I find most growers very secretive anyway about which crosses they are growing. ;)

Eric
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on February 09, 2010, 11:49:57 PM
Hi Eric

You will still be able to register it but as a group (Var). The German in question was probably one of the hybrids I registered for him. He did ask for me to do another which got registered days before I sent in the application by Mr Hazelton. I find it amazing that it can take all this time to reach flowering and then two people try to register the same hybrid within days of each other! Very different looking Pleione though.

One of the ones he registered was Alde Saran which I have growing from seed myself now. I registered them for two people this year Bergel and Blankenburg.

How many are in the conical flask?

Regards

David
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Pieter on February 10, 2010, 02:22:49 PM
Hi all

Wonderful to see all these pictures. Thanks.

I guess that if more than one person thinks about making a specific cross it would put truth in the expresion "Great minds think alike".

About the secrecy with the made/developing crosses.
I guess there could be a system where you can register the cross before it is actually in flower. You singe a contract in witch you declare that you will make a specific cross, that you will have seedlings within 2 years and that you will have the new cross in flower after a period of an other 5 years or so, with the possibility to extend this period by 1 or 2 years.
If you succeed, the registration is completed and a registration number changes in to the chosen name. Or if you don’t it is cancelled and you or some one else can have an other go at it.

This method will probably give a lot more paperwork and might even ask for some way of checking up on all the made registrations.
It will make the registration of new crosses a bit less competitive but will also make it more stressful. Now you don’t have to fulfil  the job of getting a plant in flower within a limited time span.

Greetings
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Eric Locke on February 10, 2010, 06:08:27 PM

David

Number of seedlings varies a great deal .Flask from photo of clone two only had five but others contain , over a hundred, although many are smaller than a pinhead through to a normal medium bulbil size.

Eric
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Eric Locke on February 10, 2010, 06:39:30 PM
Hi David

Non of the hybrids that you registered rung a bell, so have had to check this out.
Time does fly and I find it was 2008 when this cross was registered by H Pinkapank. I made this cross in 2007.
Querdolf = Aurita x Pln x Barbarae

Eric
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Eric Locke on February 10, 2010, 07:00:45 PM

Another observation that should prove helpfull to anyone starting to raise seedlings is regarding the selection of Pleione to be used as the seed parent . I have not heard this mentioned before or written down but I have found that the seedpod parent can be badly effected by the experience  :'(  I would recomend that anyone must be prepared for a weakened replacement bulb or at worst a total loss .Therefore if you wish to use a special plant you do not want to risk ,it is best to be used as the pollen donor.
Some plants are not badly affected, but this does vary and I have had a total loss on one occasion when using Forrestii as the seedparent . This seedpod however did mature well and went on to germinate and hopefully the results will justify the loss.

Eric
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on February 10, 2010, 07:45:35 PM
Hi Eric

Querudolf was another cross from germany that they wanted to register but alas it had been done as you pointed out.

Below is what was registered for them last year,

Pleione Sirena  (forrestii x humilis)
Pleione Spring (grandiflora x barbarae)
Pleione renate  (barbarae x aurita)
Pleione Alde Saran  (bulbocodioides x coronaria)
Pleione Lilac Wonder (chunii x yunnanensis)
Pleione Guenter   (bulbocodioides  x Eiger)
Pleione Jens Blankenburg   (vesuvius x coronaria)

Cultivars
Pln Zeus Weinstein gx,  Bahiya GP
Pln Glacier Peak gx, Fantasia Gp
Pln Glacier Peak gx,  Iceage GP
Pln. Nozomi gx, Liane Gp


David
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Eric Locke on February 10, 2010, 07:57:20 PM
David

Thanks for this list.  I do like the look of Sirena. Do you have this.

Eric
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on February 10, 2010, 08:10:03 PM
I was given some bulbs or FS-1 just before Christmas but not taken them out of the box yet to see what I have. Alde Saran I had last year and Aurita x Chunii (allready registered Kima).



Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Eric Locke on February 10, 2010, 08:33:37 PM

These both look nice David.
I did purchase a couple of small Alde Saran on ebay from you friend before xmas. It arrived with a chocolate Father Xmas which was also nice. :)

Eric
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Eric Locke on February 10, 2010, 08:44:26 PM

A comment regarding Aurita as a parent (as in Kima)
Aurita is a very dominant parent and all crosses using it have the Aurita "look"

Eric
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on February 11, 2010, 11:00:35 AM
Yes I agree, the Aurita in Pln.Kima is unmistakable.

For anyone interested here are two photo's with a five pence piece to show scale and difference a month makes. The Bulbocodioides was sown in October and the Yunnanensis was sown a month later.

I am using vented 'Combiness' pots but think there is a little too much ventilation as with so many plants I have had to reopen and add water to stop them drying out. When I reflask there will be far fewer plants per flask and I may switch to a patch vent instead. Trial and error.

Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Pieter on February 11, 2010, 11:16:24 AM
Hi

Dave,
They realy look nice. The colour and  lip markings on Alde Saran are realy great.

Eric,
You are right about Pleione aurita. It likes to be the boss in almost any cross.

I made a small list with features that are passed on by some Pleione on their offspring.

aurita      - flower colour
      - flower shape?
      
x barabarae      - flower shape
      
bulbocodioides      - dark coloration
      - possibly a colour intensifier?
      
chunii      - flower shape
      - asymmetric markings on lip
      
formosana      - different colour of lip than petals en sepals
      
forresti      - dark red lip markings
      
grandiflora      - flower shape
      
hookeriana      - typical round lip markings
      
humilis      - dark red lip markings even between the papillae
      
limprichti      - markings on the complete lip
      
pleionoides      - intens pink colour, lip markings
      
yunnanensis      - typical angular lip markings
This is just what I think and it is bassed on observing the flowers. If there are any comments or corrections, please feel free to do so.

greetings


Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: karel_t on February 12, 2010, 09:33:34 AM
Hi everybody.
Pieter, your list is very interesting. I think everybody should consider which species will use for parents and what they expect from their offspring. I think about lip color, shape etc. By my opinion the Alde Saran looks too much like pure P. bulbocodioides. So I think it isn't too beneficial have so many same looking hybrids.
Karel.
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Pieter on February 12, 2010, 12:52:06 PM
I pressed a wrong button and the reply was posted before it was complete. Here is the rest and hopefully a better form of the little list I made.
Hi

Thanks Karel.

I am still working on a full list where I add some figures that say a bit more about the traits.
Lets take P. aurita as an example.

species   trait                                           n  crosses   visible   %
aurita   Flower colour                                          12              8   66
   Flower shape                                          12              9   75
   Yellow moon shaped marking on the lip          12     7   58


n crosses = the numer of crosses in witch aurita is used that I have seen (note: this is not the number of crosses in witch aurita is used in total)
visible = this is the number of crosses in witch that trait is expresed
% = this the  same

species   trait   n  crosses   visible   %
aurita   Flower colour   12   8   66
   Flower shape   12   9   75
   Yellow moon shaped marking on the lip   12   7   58
n crosses = the numer of crosses in witch aurita is used that I have seen (note: this is not the number of crosses in witch aurita is used in total)
visible = this is the number of crosses in witch that trait is expresed
% = this the  same as the previous but in a %

I guess that when a trait is expressed in 75% of the cases you can surely say it is a dominating trait.

Greetings
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: KBruyninckx on February 12, 2010, 01:29:09 PM
I guess that when a trait is expressed in 75% of the cases you can surely say it is a dominating trait.

Pieter,

Your attempt is commendable, however... you need to watch out!

Although there is truth in your figures, they may not always be correct.

Would Pln. aurita when crossed to another species always be dominant in shape, colour, ... or could/would this not depend on the other species involved as well.
I can safely say I have not hybridized any Pleiones to date, but could it not be so that the "cases" you are looking at are single clones?
What did the other seedlings of that same batch of seedlings look like? Were they uniform in shape, colour, ... or variable? What if other clones were to be used in order to get the same combination?
If the majority of the seedling batch was constant then you're figures are correct, however it they were not constant than you have just based yourself on a single individual to build up your theory.

Looking at some primary hybrids in Paphiopedilums I know that you CAN get excellent results when lucky, but sometimes it is, well, "not bad"  at best :-\


Anyway, don't let this discourage you!
I'd love for those who hybridize to publish more pictures of the variation or lack of it within a batch of seedlings in order to further our knowledge!
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on February 12, 2010, 02:53:20 PM
Hi everybody.
Pieter, your list is very interesting. I think everybody had to consider which species will use for parents and what they expect from their offspring. I think about lip color, shape etc. By my opinion the Alde Saran looks too much like pure P. bulbocodioides. So I think it isn't too beneficial have so many same looking hybrids.
Karel.

I agree, bulbocodioides is too dominant in my opinion and I would not use in any crosses myself.

David
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Pieter on February 12, 2010, 03:15:01 PM
Hi Kenneth

I know that what I am doing here is not  an exact science, even if genetics is a serious science.

I am glad to get this response. It is the only way that thoughts like this can go from ideas on to be useful information.

The numbers mentioned in the example are based on mostly primary crosses and with a large range of examples (where possible, I don’t have as much information on all crosses). 
It is however important to mention that the crosses in which a trait was not expressed, that these involved P. bulbocodioides and  P. yunnanensis. These two species apparently have even more dominant traits, especially bulbocodioides. Like you said David.   

The use of different clones will very well be a huge source for variation.  In the case of P. ‘Ueli Wackernagel’, the late Jan Berg made seven different forms of this hybrid just by using different clones of the parents. But still they all have inherited the same characteristics from their parents.

This list is far from finished and I wouldn’t say it is correct. So if people would like to help out by adding information, please do, but don’t forget to enjoy a simple thing as the newly opened flower of your favourite Pleione.  ;)

Greetings
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Eric Locke on February 12, 2010, 10:11:23 PM
Pieter

I can see you have put much thought into this after my mentioning Aurita. Thanks.
Another thought is regarding the bulb characteristics produced from the hybrid parents.
I always find that the shape and colour of the bulbs are often a good indication of the possible parents, although this is not always the case.
This I find is often very usefull for recognising stray bulbs.

David - nice flasks of seedlings . This is something I do miss out on as mine are well developed by the time I see them.

Eric

Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Pieter on February 14, 2010, 10:07:22 AM
David

Good point. Some species have a verry specifc bulb shape and colour. In case of white forms it would be more difficult since these are pale green in colour but  I will ad it to the list. Thanks.
If you have pictures of specific bulbs (species and hubrids) let me know.

Greetings
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on February 21, 2010, 11:18:17 AM
Pleione are growing fast now.

Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Eric Locke on February 21, 2010, 02:39:32 PM

These are looking good David .
Hope even allowing for loses you will have plenty of room to grow these on. ;)

Eric
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on February 21, 2010, 02:47:45 PM
Space is going to be a problem :-\ Will tackle that issue when and if I get there.

David
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Eric Locke on February 21, 2010, 04:03:56 PM

David, this is a problem to us all I think. ;)

Eric
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: karel_t on February 21, 2010, 05:44:40 PM
David,
Your seedlings will touch a lid soon. Will you transplant them again later in the year?
Karel.
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on February 21, 2010, 06:23:21 PM
Yes as soon as they get to the top I will put in larger containers but with just small patch filters on as they are drying out too quickly in the combiness pots and I keep having to add more water under sterile conditions (back in the glovebox).
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: karel_t on April 05, 2010, 06:07:52 PM
Hi David,
What about your seedlings. Have you already replanted them?
Here are mine 2 months after replanting (4 months after sowing).
Karel.
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on April 05, 2010, 07:24:23 PM
Not had the time to re flask them yet which needs doing ASAP as they are bending over in some of the pots now after touching the top :-X

Yours are looking good, what Pleione are in the jar?

I'm also updating my website and going to include a section on growing from seed for anyone that's interested. I'll also point out mistakes I've made along the way ;)

David
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on May 29, 2010, 06:19:34 PM
Just transferred the whole contents of one flask in to another as it became to small, problem is this one is not much bigger!

Think I'll use a little less seed next time :D

David
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: karel_t on May 30, 2010, 08:43:21 PM
David,
your flasks are designed for microwave oven (100 °C). Do you sterile them in autoclave (pressure cooker) or in microwave oven?
K.
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on May 31, 2010, 11:45:27 AM
Hi Karel

The flasks are sold as food containers and are made from polypropylene. If the container has the symbol PP (polypropylene) on the bottom then they will go far higher than 100 °C and are fully autoclavable.

I've never had one melt in a pressure cooker yet but the tamper proof or tamper evident pots are better than the one in the last photo as they are stronger and more rigid (see picture from before for examples).

Regards

David
Title: Re: DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING
Post by: Slug Killer on May 31, 2010, 12:55:36 PM
Karel

Just another thought. 100 °C in a microwave is more of an indication as to what pressure the flask can take before it blows it's top. In other words you can heat up to that temperature with the top on before it either blows the top of or deforms due to the pressure inside the flask, unlike when I autoclave where the tops are not fully shut until they are being removed from the autoclave.

David
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