Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: apothecary on January 18, 2008, 09:37:17 AM
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Hello Galanthophiles,
This is my first post on your forum although I've been browsing your font of knowledge for some time.
I'm a horticulturist in Wales specialising in medicinal plants and until last spring had never really looked at a snowdrop before. I was then allocated the job of confirming the identities of all the snowdrops in our collection and suddenly a new world opened up for me (and a fascinating one it is too).
This spring is my first full season of watching the collection develop and working through the monographs. Consequently, I have a few queries if I may pass them by your expert eyes now and again?
My first query relates to the best time for measuring leaves. I had assumed that most parts of the identification process would be carried out whilst the specimen was in full flower. I have now double-checked this in The Book (Bishop, Davis, Grimshaw) and find there isn't really anywhere which tells me when they measured leaf length and width for their monographs. They merely point out that full leaf length usually occurs after flowering, but many monographs are phrased in a way which suggests measurment was still done at peak flowering time.
The reason I am suddenly questioning this is that I have a potted up specimen of G. 'Hippolyta' which matches the monograph in most respects but which currently has leaves up to only 4.5 x 1.0 cm and totally erect. The monograph gives measurements of 6.2 x 0.9cm and says leaves should be widely splayed. I'm aware the pot could potentially have this effect and that such measurements are variable anyway, but there are a couple of other extraneous features on the plant which also make me doubt it's identity since I don't know how precise I need to be. Other inconsistencies include an average of 12 inner segments (max 15) where there should be about 21; outer segment ratio of 5:3 instead of 1:1; scape length max 8.5cm rather than 16cm. Could this still be 'Hippolyta'?
I should be able to obtain another specimen in the woods where they were originally planted, but it's not as advanced as the potted one and since most of Wales is currently submerged, I haven't ventured out with pen and paper to study it yet. I imagine this specimen would be a more accurate one to study, but in the mean time, I wondered if you could offer advice.
At some point I may be able to obtain a digicam to photograph these plants.
Very grateful for any advice offered to this newly initiated Galanthophile,
Kristina
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Welcome to the forum Kristina. Had you thought of contacting John Grimshaw through the Colesbourne Park site to see when their measurements were taken?
http://www.snowdrop.org.uk/
I would have thought that flowering time is the optimum for measuring the leaf as you then know you've got the right plant.
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Hello, Kristina , a warm welcome to you!
As you have seen, this place is full of dedicated snowdrop growers so I am sure you will be able to pick up lots of help.
This point about leaf measuring is a most interesting one.... yes, when the leaf is fully grown is the sensible time to do it, but how to tell when that is? As you say, it seems that flowering is the time when others have made their measurements, very confusing!
As an amateur, I have always found keys to species somewhat ambiguous, to say the least.... when one reads that species A has leaves 12 to 17 mm wide and species B has leaves 13 to 16mm wide, it isn't really a lot of help, is it?!! ::) :P
Anyway, whole subject is full of intrique and I wish you well in your researches. Fascinating to learn of your interest in medicinal plants, too.. Perhaps we'll hear more of that in future from you?
Best wishes,
Maggi
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I am relatively new to snowdrops also and I remain sceptical that it is possible to identify the majority of named snowdrops purely on the basis of the description given by Bishop et al.
For one thing, the size and habit of a snowdrop must surely vary according to location. For example, I obtained some G. elwesii Anglesey Abbey directly from Anglesey Abbey but they do not grow nearly as large in my garden as they do in-situ. Also, markings may vary slightly from different bulbs of the same clone and on the same bulb from one year to the next. I also think that an expert like Matt Bishop sees a whole range of details that are not documented and some of which he may not even be consciously aware of.
So my opinion is that for many snowdrops identification is only possible by either keeping track of your original acquisitions or consulting an expert galanthophile. Maybe you could find an expert on this forum who would be willing to visit and help you out?
Edit: I don't mean that I think it is impossible for you to identify your own snowdrops; just that in many cases you will only be able to achieve a provisional identification that will need to be confirmed by an expert.
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I was then allocated the job of confirming the identities of all the snowdrops in our collection
Does this mean that they have been allowed to grow without weeding out of rogue seedlings? Presumably you have a list of acquisitions and where they were originally planted? Otherwise it seems like a bit of a haul to sort them out.
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Had you thought of contacting John Grimshaw through the Colesbourne Park site to see when their measurements were taken?
Um, no I didn't know I could. Sounds like a good idea. I'll get on to that directly, thanks.
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Ok, to reply properly now that I have a moment or few spare.
Thanks for all the advice. I'm glad I'm not the only one to find myself occasionally dumbfounded by these monographs. It's nice to know things don't have to fit quite perfectly. It gives me heart that I might complete the project.
Does this mean that they have been allowed to grow without weeding out of rogue seedlings?
Well, I suppose that's a pretty good estimation of what's happened here really. We're not a totally amateur outfit, but huge staff shortages and unreliable funding has resulted in a few areas being overlooked for quite some time. It's all being gradually pulled together now though and I'll certainly endeavour to remove what rogues I find as I go now that I know I'm supposed to.
Maybe you could find an expert on this forum who would be willing to visit and help you out?
So, speaking of experts, there are so many on this forum that I wondered what you would make of this pic (assuming I successfully attach it). It's taken indoors so a bit overexposed, but you get the idea.
(http://G:\KPatmore\Non-Apo related\Galanthus\Galanthus pics\sample A.pot (Hippolyta) (2).JPG)
As for medicinal info. I could talk about that all day. Even the humble snowdrop has it's unique medicinal uses so I don't know why I didn't begin to appreciate them sooner. The G. elwesii are just starting to come up in my 'pharmacy' bed for the 1st time after I secretly nabbed a few for it last year.
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Attempt no. 2: Apparently G. 'Hippolyta'
[attachthumb=1]
click the pic to enlarge
Kristina, I have edited to lovely photo to a smaller size for easy viewing. I have made it 650 x 530 pixels.Also I added attchthumb=1 (typed inside square brackets [] ) to enable the photo to be seen in the text of your message. Cheers,
Maggi
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Hi Kristina,
Welcome to the forum for those who wish to torture themselves with the minutiae of snowdrops. Good fun but frustrating at times.
On another subject, as you said you are involved in caring for medicinal herbs, do you grow American ginsing? I have some small plants from last year's seed and wondered if anyone else was growing it and how it does for them.
Paddy
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Panax quinquefolius?
I sowed a small quantity of seed last year, had about 5 germinate and then they went into stasis and refused to get any bigger. Each produced only 1 or 2 true leaves before they went into the care of our nursery person. Last I checked, they were looking decidedly poorly so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they're just dormant now and not completely dead.
How about you? I have to admit, they haven't been the greatest priority of mine so I didn't cater to their every whim as they maybe would have liked me to do.
I believe that any plant which fails to thrive in the comfort of the nursery without special effort just hasn't got a chance out in the Apothecaries' Garden which is on a 45 degree slope and gets blasted by a strong prevailing wind (and at the moment a whole deluge of water from all directions too). Consequently, nothing gets mollycoddled by me unless it's very very special indeed.
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So what's the consensus? Here are some pics of my potted up 'Hippolyta'. Is it still true to itself? For all of you out there who truly care for your Galanthus, you may find the following dissection image disturbing (sorry :-[).
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For all of you out there who truly care for your Galanthus, you may find the following dissection image disturbing (sorry ).
Oh my goodness, look at that...nice girl comes to the Forum, introduces herself politely and then turns out to be the horticultural equivalent of an axe murderer! :o ;) ;) ::)
Well laid out dissection pix, Kristina.... I can make no pretence to expertise in the world of 'drop... all I can say is that this looks very much like the plant I am growing as Hippolyta.... mind you, it's not out yet this year but I am pretty confident mine is the same... got a reasonable number of stamens showing, for instance. So, now we can both wait to be shot down in flames by the real galanthophiles! :-[
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ooh! you are brave.looks good though.
mine is not out yet but looks a lot like it.but then again I am not an expert.
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Looks more like Ophelia to me
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Kristina you are dipping your toes in to the mixed up world of the Greatorex snowdrops. Who has the right plants is hard to know and it's like asking who has the right time on the street.
Your photo is perfect we would also need to see the flower photographed from a higher elevation. This is what I have in my files as 'Hippolyta'
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oh, I now see you have two threads on the same or similar subject
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looks like the one in my files
Colesbourne claim to have it sorted now and will have a good selection of Greatorex doubles for sale next month. I might just buy a collection
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Yes, Kristina,
Panax quinquefolius is what I was talking about, I received seed last autumn from a friend in Maryland and had four germinate. This was a cause of major amazement to my friend. I have been reading "Ginseng, the Divine Root" by David A. Taylor over the last few days and he states that it is very common for ginseng to lay dormant for quite long periods, often as long as many years. I'm hoping they will spring into life again as the days lengthen and I will plant them out.
Paddy
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Friends, I have merged the topics of "Advice..." and "G. Hippolyta, since there were pix on both of said (?)plant to keep things simpler!
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You're a star and should be doing better things like watching BB Hijack or Gordon's teach the world to
swear sing cook.
And me you ask? I recording both because I sitting here crick in neck preparing a lecture that will be seen by two forum members in March
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I have aslo been searching the old Forum for Hippolyta pix.... here are three from John Forrest
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
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Wow, those 3 pics look just like what I have here. I tried counting the inner segments in the photo and it looks like those ones are also failing to produce the full compliment of 18-24 stated in the monograph.
Can the number of inner segments on a snowdrop also vary dramatically from year to year, sample to sample? I had thought that that would have been a more consistent identifying feature than length of leaf etc.
Sorry for the double thread by the way. There was some sort of time delay on my comp and things weren't going through and I was receiving conflicting messages. I started a new thread because I was given to believe the photos wouldn't go through on the old one. I'll blame it on Vista shall I? Seems to be the most deserving scapegoat for computer problems at the moment.
All in all, I do believe that given your help I am happy to confirm the identity of this particular snowdrop. There are plenty more to come though. Does everyone enjoy receiving a regular plant ident?
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Vista is way the computer appears and not how it works so I would blame the connection between your computer and the web site or fall back to the the old saying a poor workman blames his tools ::)
Without running downstairs for the book I believe that the Greatorex doubles are not stable until they mature
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So, I assume a Galanthus must grow in one particular position for a period of time before it is considered 'mature'. How long might this time be?
I think most of ours were originally planted on to our wooded hillside in 2001. I lifted half of each little group last year so that we could go through them and move some of them to a more suitable place in the garden. The one I've posted so far is from the sample I dug up because it's more advanced than what's in the woods, but if the woodland one looks the same, can't I assume that one has the correct identity? When I say 'assume' I mean of course 'beyond reasonable doubt', but still with a margin for error.
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Hello Kristina
Yes I am sure we all enjoy a plant ident! You have, however, started off with one of the Greatorex doubles which are the most contentious! Again, as you used one of those you had that was more advanced some of us have not yet got them out to have a good comparison. Nevertheless we are enjoying your contributions to the forum and I liked you dissections. Did you see the article in the Daffodil, Tulip and Snowdrop yearbook this year? It's a stunner and I must try and create some digital herbarium pictures for my records.
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I finally got the camera back!!!
So here is a higher elevation pic as suggested by Mark. Sorry it's not very good, the plant was camera shy and was more closed up than before.
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For extra info on the origin of this snowdrop:
Our database tells me that it was received by us in 1997. It says it was given to us by Primrose Warburg, but that it came from John Grimshaw. I imagine it should be the other way round since it was John Grimshaw who distributed all the Warburg snowdrops wasn't it?
This was the first year in which the garden was being built here and so the database and plant records from that time are very basic.
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Our database tells me that it was received by us in 1997. It says it was given to us by Primrose Warburg, but that it came from John Grimshaw. I imagine it should be the other way round since it was John Grimshaw who distributed all the Warburg snowdrops wasn't it?
Kristina - yes, John Grimshaw was asked by the family in 1997 to take on the role of Snowdrop Executor and to distribute the South Hayes snowdrops - people were invited at the time to apply to him, so I would imagine that the NBGW must have asked for these snowdrops.