Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: Blonde Ingrid on July 30, 2014, 09:46:51 AM
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The Avon Bulbs resting list is just out and there are some stunners!
e.g.
Phil Cornish
Verdure
Bill Boardman
Simply Glowing et al
Enjoy.
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I've contacted "Ding Dong" to ask if she knows whether or not Avon would like the list published here :)
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Dare I make the assumption that the names listed above are all snowdrops? :)
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Hi Lesley, Yes they are. Here is the new cultivar selection:
Big Eyes New hybrid, large rounded flowers and 2 huge green eyes at base of inner segments
Bill Boardman Stunning late flowering G.plicatus with bright yellow single inner mark.
Byrkley Selection of G.elwesii from a Shropshire garden and one of the very best of recent years with large showy flowers boldly marked with dark green tips.
Caryl Baron Desirable new green marked seedling found at Avon Bulbs, dark green splashedouters and dark green inner mark.
Chthonic Nivalis, name means someone who inhabits the underworld, ghostly perhaps, this form is almost an albino, with pale creamy grey leaves, most unusual.
Crinkle Crankle Hybrid, Seedling found in the snowdrop wood here at Avon Bulbs, large chunky flowers with unusual inner marking like the shape of an undulating East Anglian wall!
Devon Marble From the Delamore Estate in Devon - a form of G. nivalis with amazing green streaked inner segments like finest green Italian marble.
Gravity Hybrid, found here at Avon Bulbs near a clump of Bill Bishop - this heavy rounded flower is of great weight and substance, a class act. Single green apical mark.
Kencott Kali A selection of G. elwesii from an Oxfordshire garden, this form has very long outer segments tipped in pale green.
Moortown Mighty From David Bromley's garden, a large and robust G.plicatus hybrid with bold inner marks.
Phil Cornish Hybrid, stunning new selection from the garden of the great galanthophile Phil Cornish. Wonderful all green inners and outers heavily marked with bright green.
Phillipe Andre Meyer Hybrid, from Mark Brown in Normandy and named for his previous employer, this G. plicatus hybrid is one of the best Trym type seedlings, very showy and although short in height, very vigorous in the ground.
Simply Glowing Born in Somerset, an amazing G. elwesii seedling with all green inners and outer segments of a strange glowing green, hence the name.
Trimmer Outstanding Trym seedling with large thick outer segments with distinctive pagoda-like shape, these are beautifully splashed with green.
Verdure Nivalis, from Normandy, an enchanting green tip with pale green washed inner marking.
They are going like hot cakes!
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wish I had the money for all I fancy!
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Maggie - if anyone wants to put the list on here, that's fine. As long as they are in UK or EU, they can order. Sorry we can't put it on ourselves at the mo, as the phones are busy!!!
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Here is the full Avon list in PDF format.
You will need to move quickly :)[attachimg=1]
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Thanks Maxine and Ingrid - sure there will be folks grateful for this.
Even I can see there are interesting 'drops there ;D
http://www.avonbulbs.co.uk/ (http://www.avonbulbs.co.uk/)
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I am so broke... :'(
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Well major panic in this house when I switched the computer on this morning to find an email saying "I expect that you had Avon's list yesterday", then I found it. I hadn't looked at the computer since yesterday morning! Serves me right for not concentrating on snowdrops and doing something else ::) The lines were, of course, busy - so more panic ensued until I eventually got through and passed my order on. Now a nervous wreck I shall have to go and lie down in a dark room and recover ;)
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Dear All,
Just a quick message from Alan Street at Avon Bulbs to anyone who has ordered G. nivalis 'Verdure'. The name is already in use for a green-leaved clone of this species which we found in Normandy and distributed at The Garden House Snowdrop Study Day in 2012, albeit in small numbers. Alan will provide a new name for the clone with a diffuse inner segment marking and green apical outer segment marks. Profuse apologies!
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I was very happy to receive the list yesterday, and making the order fast I'm now getting 'Trymming' :)
.
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You'll love that Leena, it's a super snowdrop ;D
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Sent an hour looking at the list with head gardener deciding what we should recommend big boss man to order for the collection ....happy days .
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Re: "Verdure" - I think accidental re-use of existing names will be an increasing problem as the number of named snowdrops increases.
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Sent an hour looking at the list with head gardener deciding what we should recommend big boss man to order for the collection ....happy days .
...and you get paid for it too, what joy :-*
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Sent an hour looking at the list with head gardener deciding what we should recommend big boss man to order for the collection ....happy days .
All of them? :D
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All of them? :D
Not quite ! ;)
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I have passed on to him any dormant list I had , hopefully there will be new snowdrops for his collection ;D
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You'll love that Leena, it's a super snowdrop ;D
Thanks, I'm sure I will and I hope it will like it here as I ordered only one bulb of 'Trymming' (and 'Fieldgate Forte'). :)
I have read old galanthus threads to decide what to want (I don't have money for everything), and it is so good to read others opinions of different snowdrops, it makes decisions easier.
On Avon list there were many temptations, many of which I didn't even know.
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Thanks, I'm sure I will and I hope it will like it here as I ordered only one bulb of 'Trymming' (and 'Fieldgate Forte'). :)
I have read old galanthus threads to decide what to want (I don't have money for everything), and it is so good to read others opinions of different snowdrops, it makes decisions easier.
On Avon list there were many temptations, many of which I didn't even know.
It should bulk up reasonably fast Leena, unfortunately many of the new snowdrops are unknown to a lot of us and it is sometimes a stab in the dark to know what to have. I always think it might be a good idea for Avon to publish pictures here so we know what we are getting!
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Pictures would be an excellent addition
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'Snowdrops' by Gunter Waldorf has some pictures of Avon's snowdrops. ;)
Big Eyes , page 76
Chthonic-: page 82
There's more too.........
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The Dutch book Galanthomania has a picture of 'simply glowing'
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...and you get paid for it too, what joy :-*
And pay for 'drops with someone else's money. Even better. ;D
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Thank the 'Lord' eh Emma?..... ;D
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For those who purchased G. Phillipe Andre Meyer please note that the correct spelling should be 'Philippe André Meyer'.
Pterugiform galanthus
Mark BROWN (Fri, 22 Feb 2013 01:40:49 PST)
Dear John,
as publisher of the new volume on cultivars, if you are? You are in a unique position to publish this wonderful term.
I am sure that some will prefer to go the road of pocs instead of poculiforms and thus terries instead of pterugiforms...
There is need for a precise term for this group which has grown exponentially over the last few years.
It is odd that this plant grown for about forty years has only recently started to show its potential as a parent.
Is it because os us all dead-heading our collections?
I only leave seed on those that I would like to seed and do very little deliberate hybridising.
I have one good seedling of 'Trym' here which is like a prolific and dwarf 'South Hayes'.
Last week after appraisal and after growing on for over four years We decided it merited a name.
It is to be called 'Philippe André Meyer'. It has and will be again twin-scaled!
Kind regards,
Mark
I have informed Chris at Avon Bulbs.
Regards
John(M)
P. S. The bulbs I had from them today were second to none.
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For those innocents wondering what on earth pterugiform means - see the posts on the PBS archive of February 2013 starting here :
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/2013-February/ohtia4qkj0kpdt0gudj58olba5.html (http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/2013-February/ohtia4qkj0kpdt0gudj58olba5.html)
Follow the posts on "Reverse poculiform snowdrops and roman legionnaires " :) There are quite a number starting from the 21st February 2013.
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There's a lot to be said for blissful ignorance ;D
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There's a lot to be said for blissful ignorance ;D
Well, that can be true - but my Dad always said knowledge is power. Besides, no point in letting you be too blissful, David!
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... what on earth pterugiform means...
Whilst I agree that the coinage 'inverse poculiform' needs to be replaced, there is also a lot to be said for a name that trips off the tongue a bit more easily than pterugiform.
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Well you cannot please everyone. That's for sure.
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I think unless you can come up with a more catchy word , we are all going to continue using inverse poc .
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Much as I like the term pterugiform as a descriptor for this kind of floral morphology (I was unaware of it prior to publishing inverse poculiform) I think it would cause more problems than it solves to try and switch now when we have a perfectly well-established term. In any case not all inverse pocs are pterugiform; some reflex or recurve their outer segments and yet show inner segment markings on their outer segments. I'm sure if any self-respecting Roman warrior ventured into an arena with such a garment, eye brows would have been raised!
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I'm sure if any self-respecting Roman warrior ventured into an arena with such a garment, eye brows would have been raised!
That would have given folks a good laugh anyway - looking like a roman lampshade!
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We use the term 'poculiform', which I'm given to understand means shaped like a goblet or drinking-bowl (although I'll have to take the word of Latin scholars on this) to describe a snowdrop with inner petals that have some of the character of the normal outer petals. I have always found it a bit of a stretch of my imagination to see such snowdrops as goblet-shaped.
So 'inverse poculiform' literally means inverse goblet-shaped - my imagination simply is not up to what an inverse goblet might look like. But we don't mean that 'inverse poculiform' snowdrops look like an inverse goblet, we mean that they are the opposite of poculiform and that the outer petals have something of the character of normal inner petals. In my opinion, and it's just my opinion, the literal meaning of the term 'inverse poculiform' is too far away from what is actually meant.
Picture of a poculum http://www.roma-victrix.com/armamentarium/img/inscriptiones_poculum01.jpg (http://www.roma-victrix.com/armamentarium/img/inscriptiones_poculum01.jpg)
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Inners look like outers = illo's , outers look like inners olli's. That would do it lol ;D
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Inners look like outers = illo's , outers look like inners olli's. That would do it lol ;D
A promising theory - 'til we consider the dyslexics amongst us......... ::)
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Inners look like outers = illo's , outers look like inners olli's. That would do it lol ;D
Oh, Emma, I like that! I'm going to tell my Ollis at once!
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I like that too, Emma; very much. Unfortunately it is not sanctified by being in a language understood by only the few so I suspect it will not be allowed to catch-on.
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Well I think I like it so I'm going to call them that lol
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I agree, in the absence of any friends who are Latin scholars, that the term poculiform has always been something of a puzzle when applied to a snowdrop flower with six more or less equal outer segments, which at best could only be a very leaky cup! One well-known galanthophile suggested to me recently that the 'cup' might refer to the apex of each of the segments when upturned but it seems somewhat tenuous.
But following Alan's assertion that inverse meant inside out, I found myself reaching for my dictionary and there is was: inverse - meaning no.2: 'a thing that is the opposite or reverse of another'. So I hear my self say 'what is an inverse poculiform'? Answer: well logical for starters.
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Matt, I don't at all dispute the logic of getting from poculiform to inverse poculiform; I just think poculiform heads off in the wrong direction and unless you know where poculiform is you will be totally lost by the time you get to inverse poculiform. Even a Latin scholar who understood what a poculum was would surely never ever be able to identify an inverse poculiform snowdrop from first principles. "Here are some snowdrops: which one resembles the inverse of a the shape of a Roman drinking cup?" strikes me as an impossible question to answer.
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Interesting as these discussions on the usage of pocs/ inverse pocs are - they bear no relation to the subject of the Avon Bulbs list, for which I apologise!
It seems to me that there are many botanical terms, as indeed there are in the technical jargon of many other things- computers, for instance - that do not bear close scrutiny as to their full or original meanings.
In this case, I believe that poculiform is derived from an early use of 'poculiformis' from a time when latinised names for cultivars and types was permitted. Thus the term has a history and as such is well known in usage. We may not know, or indeed care, whence came the original word, all we need to know is that a poculiform snowdrop has all its parts like outer petals , while the inverse poc has all its parts like inner petals.
It really is as simple as that. I don't believe it is beyond the wit of most plantlovers to grasp that difference. I've managed to do so.
I may believe that the name Delores is singularly inappropriate for the girl I see before me - I might consider that she would be better named Hermione - but her name is Delores and that is that, really. It is not for me to question the wisdom of her parents who named her or consider urging her to change her name!
There are many other latin terms in botany that can be tricky either to pronounce or know the meaning of, but happily we have easier English words for most of them - that is not the case for all of them. Poculiform and inverse poculiform come into that category where the "translation" or etymology is not straightforward and any English replacement would, perforce, be longwinded at best.
'Drop Fiends- learn 'em and get over it! ;) :)
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I disagree completely Maggi. AFAIK the term poculiform is applied to no other flower than that of the snowdrop to mean the same thing (though a flower like a buttercup might more accurately be described as poculiform - if you had a mind to do so). Poculiform applied to snowdrops is just a piece of jargon, albeit long-standing. Jargon can be used to prevent the initiated from understanding and so is best avoided where possible. Why use terminology that is only understood by 'drop-fiends'?
The names of plant species are continuously being changed or re-classified. If we accept this then we should accept that we can also abandon obscure descriptive terminology if we can find something more appropriate. If Dolores herself does not like her own name she can change it and if the snowdrop community decided to move on from using the terms poculiform and inverse poculiform they can do so.
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Whilst plant names can and do change, usually for reasons of unknown prior publication, I agree with Maggi and I think its completely ridiculous to attempt to alter or change a well established term which allows us to communicate effectively about plants with a common feature. Such a change would only cause confusion and a disservice to any one interested in snowdrops. And you cannot un-invent the use of the epithet poculiformis for Galanthus either.
And for people new to snowdrops, well its like any specialised interest which inevitably comes with unfamiliar terms and just the same as we did, they will take them in their stride, learning them as they go, so where's the problem?
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Matt
Excellent summary of the current status amongst Galanthophiles.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
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"Marvellous" is a well-established term for something really good but it is going out of fashion; replaced by "awesome". Poculiform, when applied to a snowdrop, will always mean one where the inners resemble the outers but if some future generation of galanthophiles decides that they prefer some other term for the same thing then it will pass out of common usage. Poculiform is a bit of a mouthful and even the pronunciation is uncertain - is the u hard as in peculiar or soft as in cull? It's also a rather poor description. I just don't see it lasting; but clearly it has some ardent supporters at present. Surprising then, that nobody seemed to embrace pterugiform, which has all the merits of poculiform (except that it arrived 2 years after Matt coined the term "inverse poculiform").
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The End ;) ::)
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Can anybody translate the discussion please into German? :P
At least the result? :-\
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The result:
"Poculiform" ja bitte. Es ist eine guter Name, weil est alt ist.
"Inverse poculiform" ja bitte.
"Pterugiform" nein danke. Es ist zu spät.
I'm not sure if "inverse", being an English word, should be translated into your language of use but anyway I don't know the German for inverse. In fact I don't know much German at all.
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Well done Alan ;)
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Thank you, Chas. I studied German for 3 years at school but that was now so long ago it's almost embarrassing.
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Thank you, Chas. I studied German for 3 years at school but that was now so long ago it's almost embarrassing.
Alan, I studied German for two years and had to go to Google translate to be sure of what I was reading. Yours is a succinct and tidy summary.
This was an interesting conversation to track from the sidelines, and I am still smiling at Emma's illo/olli.
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The result:
"Poculiform" ja bitte. Es ist eine guter Name, weil est alt ist.
"Inverse poculiform" ja bitte.
"Pterugiform" nein danke. Es ist zu spät.
I'm not sure if "inverse", being an English word, should be translated into your language of use but anyway I don't know the German for inverse. In fact I don't know much German at all.
Very well done nevertheless. Thank you :)!
Ich würde 'inverse' in diesem Zusammenhang als 'Umgekehrt Poculiform' übersetzen und dann versteht man auch die Diskussion darüber, ob dieser Name sinnvoll ist. Denn da sich das Wort Poculiform aus der stark "bauchigen" Form ableitet, müßte "umgekehrt poculiform" quasi konkav sein. Dies ist ja bei den Trym-artigen nicht unbedingt der Fall...
Iris
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Very well done nevertheless. Thank you :)!
Ich würde 'inverse' in diesem Zusammenhang als 'Umgekehrt Poculiform' übersetzen und dann versteht man auch die Diskussion darüber, ob dieser Name sinnvoll ist. Denn da sich das Wort Poculiform aus der stark "bauchigen" Form ableitet, müßte "umgekehrt poculiform" quasi konkav sein. Dies ist ja bei den Trym-artigen nicht unbedingt der Fall...
Iris
An approximate translation :
I would translate 'inverse' in this context as 'Conversely Poculiform' and then you can understand the discussion on whether this name is appropriate. For since the word Poculiform is derived from the strong "fat" form, then "reversed poculiform" would be apparently concave. This is indeed in the Trym-like instance not necessarily the case ...
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Funnily enough, I had a chat with a snowdrop luminary this week who was keen on the term 'pterugiform' so perhaps this debate will continue. I know that Matt coined "inverse poculiform" first but there is never any guarantee that the terminology of first use will stick. We don't all drive around in 'horseless carriages' - or rather we do; we just don't call them that any more.
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It did make an appearance here
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/pbs/2013-February/038632.html (http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/pbs/2013-February/038632.html)
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Yes, Brian, Maggi provided the original link to the PBS forum in post #27.
Earlier in February 2013 Mark Brown was seeking an alternative to "inverse poculiform" and thought of the "skirt" worn by Roman legionnaires.
Somebody posting as bonsaigai37 @aol.com suggested Pteruges as the name for this apparel.
Mark Smyth pointed out that it wasn't really a skirt.
Rodger Whitlock coined the term "Pterugiform".
Then the bit you linked to follows.
So Mark Brown is the advocate behind pterugiform. Mark Brown, for anyone who does not know, is a France-based galanthophile featured in the book "Galanthomania".
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Yes, Brian, Maggi provided the original link to the PBS forum in post #27.
Whoops I am behind the times!
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I've begun to forget what the point was in the first place :-[-
John Grimshaw wrote about this - and the article by Matt which put forward the case for "inverse poculiform" - in his blog here : http://johngrimshawsgardendiary.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/for-galanthophiles-and-daffodil.html (http://johngrimshawsgardendiary.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/for-galanthophiles-and-daffodil.html)
Not sure why the name for flowers shaped like Trym etc is not the simple "campanulate " - as used for so many other flowers of similar shape? Perhaps that would be too easy? ;) :D (sorry Matt!)
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What you need is a tartan snowdrop so you can describe it as "kilt-like". And what is the Latin for that?
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Is this what you mean??
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Crikey, Maxine, I nearly fell off the chair laughing! The dogs think I've finally lost the plot!! ;D ;D
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Big lad :o
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What's not available on Ebay? http://www.ebay.com/sch/?&_nkw=Pteruges (http://www.ebay.com/sch/?&_nkw=Pteruges)
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I have no idea how to say the word and have forgotten how it was said to me the other night
From the web site romanarmytalk.com ...
"Can I also impart one last prononciation piece of advice that I had insanely wrong for 3 years? The strands and material called pterigues are pronounce "terr-ree-gaes" not "pet-tridge-es" as I read it."
"No.. it is pteruges (πτέρυγες) and it is pronounced pteri-yes (stress on the first "e", "-yes" like the word, just do not stress the consonants like Anglosaxons do). In classical times, it was supposedly pronounced more like pterue(ue like the german u umlaut) -yes. As a Greek this sounds "Greek" to me and it is pretty sure that at least since the late Hellenistic times the various i-volwels were being pronounced i (as in pit), what you barbarians (hehe 8) 8) ) call iotakismos, that is the Greek practice to have 5 different letters and dipthongs sound like "i" (iota)(ι, η, υ, οι, ει, we have a sixth υι, but it is pronounced like a double i (i-i), not a single one), which should not seem that strange to you... (pit, keep, leap, phoebe, lyrics, niece, be..., you actually have many more "ee" letters and dipthongs than the iotakizontes ancient Greeks). The υ sounding like u (put), ew (new) or sth like that may have lasted more, maybe into the early Byzatine years. Yet, I would stick with the i-sound, sounds more Greek... Yet, interestingly enough, another version of the word πτέρυγες is πτερούγες (pteru (ου=u like in put)-yes, stressed on the u) which means the exact same thing... "wings"."
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So it's said either, and assuming the p is silent, terry-yes or terr-oo-yes
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Is this what you mean??
That would work if snowdrops were dioecious, this being the male flower!
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Not sure why the name for flowers shaped like Trym etc is not the simple "campanulate " - as used for so many other flowers of similar shape?
A fundamental problem arises because nobody is quite sure if the descriptive term should apply to the shape of the flower or its character. "Poculiform" (which sets a long-established precedent), "Pterugiform" and "Campanulate" all refer to flower shape. Emma's catchy coinage "Illo" (Inners look like outers) and "Olli" (Outers look like inners) make reference to the character of the flowers. A problem with "Inverse Poculiform" is that "inverse" really refers to character whilst "poculiform" refers to shape so we end up with the botanical equivalent of a mixed metaphor. Not everyone in the wider galanthophile community likes this and a passing reference to that fact lead on to the little debate we had here.
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Big lad :o
Not as big as this chap!