Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Plant Identification => Plant Identification Questions and Answers => Topic started by: Maggi Young on June 05, 2014, 12:39:58 PM

Title: Garden plant ID
Post by: Maggi Young on June 05, 2014, 12:39:58 PM
I may have asked this before - but if I did I have forgotten any answers   ::) :P

This is a good garden plant here in Aberdeen . My friend has grown it for years - it makes a low hummock of shrubby evergreen  growth and flowers well from early May till about the end  of June.
About 20 to 25 cms high at most.
It has a look of a sturdy penstemon or a mazus about it.  The leaves  have an almost  "succulent" feel to them.

Leaves, toothed edges 75mm total length by 30mm wide
Flowers 40mm long , flattened lip 20mm.  no "beard" Around 8 to 10 flowers per stem.

Help please.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: ChrisB on June 05, 2014, 02:20:36 PM
Could it be some sort of linearia?  Flower shape looks similar.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Maggi Young on June 05, 2014, 02:40:02 PM
I don't know of any evergreen shrubby Linaria. :-\
This flower has no spur and the upper and lower lips are pretty much the same.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Roma on June 05, 2014, 03:53:17 PM
I'd say it was a shrubby Penstemon.  There are hybrids as well as species.  I seem to remember they tended to be short lived or if they did grow into big plants they were untidy and sprawling.  Fruticosus, scouleri and davidsonianum come to mind but there are others.  Does Robert Nold still frequent the forum?   I think he helped out some id's a while back.   
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: ChrisB on June 05, 2014, 04:19:15 PM
Could be a penstemon Roma....
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Lesley Cox on June 11, 2014, 11:13:43 PM
I think it's a Penstemon, especially from the incipient seed pods as well as the flowers and I think there are species with foliage like that. It's such a vast genus. Maybe Anne in New York state would know for sure, or Lori. Really nice anyway.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Lori S. on June 12, 2014, 12:42:35 PM
No doubt at all to me that it's a penstemon.  I have keys and can try to suggest species later.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Maggi Young on June 12, 2014, 01:09:03 PM
Thanks, Lori, that would be great.

Character is of creeping, clumping shrubby habit. Leaves are, as I said, almost succulent, they are "lushly leathery" if you get my drift? (You can tell I have a great grasp of the technical jargon, can't you?   :) )  I am somewhat surprised by the lack of any beard in the flower - is that often the case with Penstemon?
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Geoforce on June 12, 2014, 05:30:52 PM

 they are "lushly leathery" if you get my drift?

I believe the term is coriaceous Maggi.   ;D

Geo
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: David Nicholson on June 12, 2014, 05:56:48 PM
A pure guess (and I never get any ID right) that might do until Lori is able to get back. Penstemon montanus var. montanus
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Maggi Young on June 12, 2014, 06:18:43 PM
I believe the term is coriaceous Maggi.   ;D

Geo
That would be the very  word, George, thanks!
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: astragalus on June 12, 2014, 10:12:48 PM
Definitely seems to be a penstemon, hope Lori can key it for you.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Lori S. on June 13, 2014, 04:22:49 AM
It would be lovely if Bob Nold would just pop in right about now and tell us what it is! 
Anyway, I will try to figure it out...
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Lori S. on June 13, 2014, 05:09:06 AM
A pure guess (and I never get any ID right) that might do until Lori is able to get back. Penstemon montanus var. montanus
Well, it's often easier to say what it's not (which is still helpful)... The Lodewick key says P. montanus v. montanus has grey-green pubescent leaves.  Other subspecies may be glabrous, but the cyme is usually 2-5 flowered, and they are herbaceous, so apparently not P. montanus then.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: penstemon on June 13, 2014, 06:46:00 PM
The leaves in P. montanus are glandular-pubescent, and these look glabrous. Leaves are on the flowering stalk and no basal rosette. Var. idahoensis leaves are glaucous.
So, this is probably a hybrid.


Bob
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Maggi Young on June 13, 2014, 07:07:34 PM
Thanks Friends - so it's Penstemon 'Darngoodgardenhybrid ' then  ;D

The little stems I pulled to photograph are making roots in a jar of water so I'll be able to see how it grows a couple of hundred yards up the hill from its previous home.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: drtd on June 14, 2014, 05:28:36 AM
It looks a lot like a native species we have here in the states. Penstemon cardwellii. Similar habit, color, lip, and dentate pattern on the leaf margin.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: David Nicholson on June 14, 2014, 08:33:03 AM
According to Bob Nold's book Penstemon cardwellii grows ".....to 60cm and as much as five times that in width.........."?
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: drtd on June 14, 2014, 04:34:54 PM
I'm sure it could, but I've never seen it anywhere close to that size in the wild. In a garden, I could see that. The plant would have to be pretty old though to reach that kind of size. In the rock garden at my college they have a 10 year old specimen and it barely topped out at 10 cm tall and 30 cm wide.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Maggi Young on June 14, 2014, 04:57:21 PM
My friend's plant is around twenty five years old, I reckon.  It doesn't go much above 25cms at flowering and the spread is around 170cm - would be more if it hadn't been cut back occasionally.
The leaves are quite big,  bigger than any mentioned so I think it must be a hybrid to be so chunky.

Next mystery  would be to work out where it was sourced from all those years ago  -  A search too far, I think!
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Anthony Darby on June 15, 2014, 12:59:16 AM
Anyone recognise this weed?

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Maggi Young on June 15, 2014, 09:30:50 AM
Anyone recognise this weed?

Thought for the day:

If you don't know what it is, how do you know it's a weed ?
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: fermi de Sousa on June 15, 2014, 09:58:41 AM
Petasites?
NZ megaherb?
cheers
fermi
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Anthony Darby on June 15, 2014, 10:16:14 AM
If you don't know what it is, how do you know it's a weed ?
It's in the wrong place (not in my garden, I might add).

Doesn't look right for Petasites, which tends to have heart shaped leaves.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: ChrisB on June 15, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
Going back to that penstemon Maggi, I'm just reading the two part bulletin article 'Penstemons: a gardeners guide June & Dec 1994 by Geoffrey Charlesworth who says 'you can grow 10 new penstemons every year for 20 years and not exhaust the genus!' And I think he's only talking about the N.American shrubby kind so there are a lot of them... And they've been popular for a long time, the article is 20 years old to start with...
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Maggi Young on June 15, 2014, 01:56:26 PM
Oh yes, there are plenty of those Penstemons! 
The late lamented, Yorkshire-bornhttp://www.bnargs.org/obitgeoffrey.pdf  (http://www.bnargs.org/obitgeoffrey.pdf)Geoffrey Charlesworth (who died in 2008 in America, where he lived for many years) was, of course, a most excellent author who made a great impact.
Those articles you mention are in the AGS bulletin  - what a pity they are not available online for a wider audience.

I remain curious, however, as to how my chum's  hybrid got here to Aberdeen at that time - we know the history of the house ownership  which yields no clue.  ???
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Geoforce on June 15, 2014, 02:21:30 PM
Anyone recognise this weed?

Furry critter.  Looks a lot like a seedling hollyhock (Alcea).

Geo
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Maggi Young on June 15, 2014, 03:10:26 PM
Furry critter.  Looks a lot like a seedling hollyhock (Alcea).

Geo
It does indeed - not a weed then, Anthony???   :D
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: ChrisB on June 15, 2014, 04:33:11 PM
It's a very good article and I'm trying to read it carefully so I understand them a bit better.  I read pt 2 first lol, then went to search for the first part.  I've got a few penstemons, one in a sink that's not been touched since we came here 19 years ago now.  I'd love to id it... I find them quite difficult on the whole, but perhaps because I haven't understood their requirements! 

Agree Maggi, those journals should be on line.  Such a shame...
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Anthony Darby on June 16, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
Not a hollyhock. The leaves are not symmetrical. I've grown hollyhocks and I've never seen leaves like these. The leaf veins should all originate from where the stem joins the leaf. I may be wrong. Also, the gardener would know if there were hollyhocks about and would put it down to a stray seedling.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Matt T on June 16, 2014, 07:29:51 PM
Is it a mallow, Malva sp.?
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Anthony Darby on June 17, 2014, 02:02:30 AM
Same as hollyhock in leaf structure.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: olegKon on June 17, 2014, 08:00:00 AM
Can it be Penstemon serrulatum? At least the plant is similar to what I grow with this name.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Maggi Young on June 17, 2014, 10:39:35 AM
Can it be Penstemon serrulatum? At least the plant is similar to what I grow with this name.
Hello Oleg,  I see what you  mean - there are some similarities.
P. serrulatum seems to have a more upright growth and the flower has a pronunced tri-lobed lower lip, which my friend's plant does not have.

I hope you have a great summer!
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Lesley Cox on June 17, 2014, 11:01:19 AM
Your plant looks a lot my seedlings of the white currant Anthony but you'd be able to tell from the scent of the foliage if it were a currant - of almost any kind.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Anthony Darby on June 18, 2014, 09:59:29 AM
Could it be a Geum sp.?
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Maggi Young on June 18, 2014, 10:26:20 AM
Could it be a Geum?

(Attachment Link)      

My reading of the scale of the leaves would make it a monster Geum, if that were to be so...... :-\
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Lesley Cox on June 19, 2014, 12:12:48 AM
Doesn't look like a Geum to me. Could it be Ye Olde-fashioned Anemone japonica by any chance?
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Anthony Darby on June 19, 2014, 04:32:40 AM
Time will tell, if the gardener (who lives in Invercargill) lets it flower.
Title: Re: Garden plant ID
Post by: Matt T on June 19, 2014, 08:16:41 AM
Maggi's Penstemon looks very similar to P. fruticosus var. scouleri: http://biology.burke.washington.edu/herbarium/imagecollection.php?SciName=Penstemon%20fruticosus%20var.%20scouleri (http://biology.burke.washington.edu/herbarium/imagecollection.php?SciName=Penstemon%20fruticosus%20var.%20scouleri)

If it's not this species, it must be in it's parentage?
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