Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => Flowers and Foliage Now => Topic started by: johnw on April 27, 2014, 04:16:09 PM
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Here are two shots of a single plant of my cross of pleianthum x versipelle. Even as a youngster it had yellow mottling on the leaves. This has not impaired its vigour by any means but I wonder if I should bin it? One of its siblings has 100% yellow foliage but at the moment I can't lay my hands on it or a photo. I have never seen virus in a Podo so would like some opinions.
johnw - +6c and damp, feeling like -7c
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John,
Post images again when the leaves are mature. From this point it looks like it could be the that the chloroplasts have not fully developed or moved around where the leaf was crumpled up while unfolding.
I had a seedling a few years ago that I thought was virus, but it turns out, now that it has matured, it is a very nice variegated clone. Sadly it is the only versipelle/mairei clone that I have that does not seem to run around the garden.
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Thanks Aaron. I will certasinly do that but it may be a couple of weeks for the leaf to fully expand. It's damp and very raw here with cold Atlantic breezes.
johnw
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Aaron - Here is a follow-up shot of that "suspect" Podo. I'll take another in a few weeks. The sheen is so pronounced it's difficult to get a glareless shot. You can see how slow the pace of growth is in these parts; if the Scots didn't take every last bit of heat out of the Gulf Stream the return current might give us a hint of warmth in the Spring.
johnw
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Hi John,
Never heard of virus in Podophyllums but as they are newish to cultivation who knows??
The leaves do look odd and it could just be cold damaged caused early on when in bud and this can be seen in some plants where emerging leaves unfold with deformities and streaking and mistaken for virus. You could isolate it since its in a pot...
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Stephen - I have hesitated to plant this one outside so it has never been below +4c. I have never had a Podo touched by frost in the garden either. As mentioned before a yellow-leafed form did arise from this cross. Once the leaves expand and flatten I will re-post pix.
john
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Oh ok..yellow forms. You might be on a good thing
Maybe if you gey it to flower and its deformed or has discolor that maybe virus.. Lets just cross fingers and hop it's not
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Well a few more photos of that suspicious Podo. I doubt the leaves are fully expanded - glacially slow aren't we? - but here goes.
Shall I light the fire now?
johnw
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Podophyllum difforme.
First time flowering from a sowing of my own seed in Aug '05. The reason is because i have kept dividing it to give away.
The white on the leaf tips is scorch as it has been in an unshaded frame and the sun has been shining!
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Sun? In Chorley?
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And visiting a friend's garden today she had suspicions about a few of hers. Could this indeed be frost damage? Or a deficiency? The yellowing combined with the crinkling certainly makes it more worrisome.
johnw - +8c
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John if you don't like it burn it..looks suspicious with the deform leaf but I'm no expert with virus on podos
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One way to check for virus infection -
Use a paper hole punch to punch a sample from the suspicious plant. Use the same hole punch to punch a hole in a healthy plant that you think might be susceptible. Take the sample from the suspicious plant and tape it into the hole made on the healthy plant. Wait and see if symptoms appear.
This is one of a few simple methods to infect plants with virus. It is a simple and easy way to checking for resistance, especially useful in a breeding project.
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This one is labelled Podophyllum aurantiocaule from PMacD. It is very late emerging compared to the other species and this particular plant has the most incredible iridescence to the leaf. Difficult to capture with the camera, it's almost like a slick of gasoline with a rainbow of colours.
johnw - a bone chilling 10c & overcast, magnolias are in a state of suspensiuon given this weather.
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That's rather fine, have you bred from it John, and if so does this carry through?
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That's rather fine, have you bred from it John, and if so does this carry through?
No I haven't Brian but I thought it woiuld be interesting to cross it with difforme to try to get a later Spotty Dotty type. Also with delavayi as that one emerges so early in the spring this species could slow it down a bit and then perhaps some red-leafed forms might appear..........
10c here, Corylopsis spp. have just faded, the magnolias are in suspension and the dreaded forsythia I'm afraid just won't fade away.
johnw
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Nice one John, not very familiar with that one, does it flower for you?
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Nice one John, not very familiar with that one, does it flower for you?
Stephen - No flowers yet on this form. Just working up a to do list for it, when and if.
I'm almost certain it will have flowers next year.
johnw
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A few of the delavayi x pleianthum hybrids are turning red now that they have finished expanding their leaves. Pic. #1
The pleianthum x versipelle leaves keep getting bigger and bigger. it seems the past month of cold 5-10c temps and persistent cloud cover were much to their liking. Pic#2
johnw - sunny & 18c
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Crikey, John - don't stand too close to that monster- it might be hungry! :o
To say they're growing well is something of an understatement, isn't it? I suppose it is a blessing that the pretty nasty weather has been to something's liking.
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John have you ever seen s 'Red Panda'? well that's what you've developed there with delavayi x pleianthum.. Dan Hinkley made that same cross when he had heronswood nursery and now mass produced by Terra Nova with cv spotty dotty and kaleidoscope
Red panda is very dramatic your cross displays the typical reds shades and age to degrees of bronze to dark greens.. A very nice cross there John well done
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Amazing lush plants; they must love your conditions. So good to see plants growing so happily. Could you grow snowdrops in the area for winter interest?
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Could you grow snowdrops in the area for winter interest?
Margaret - I wouldn't dream of doing such a thing. ;)
johnw
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Stephen - I thought Red Panda veered more to the pleianthum / versippele leaf shape where as mine were more delavayi-shaped. Then I woke up and saw the one on the lower left which I must get out and label immediately (done). By the way the cross is very easy to make.
Thanks
john
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Ah you have a big garden. I cram too much into my small patch. :-[
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Ah you have a big garden. I cram too much into my small patch. :-[
He's kidding you, Margaret - he'd have snowdrops in places other people don't even have places if he could!
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I was always gullable.
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Nah, that's trusting and I think charming. :-*
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Margaret - Let me just say we stack pots atop one another 4 tiers high in the greenhouse during winter months. Never enough space you know. Snowdrops I'd guess would be great under the late emnrging Podos like P. aurantiocaule, at least in climates where the latter can handle some sun.
johnw
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Hi John.. I think I have the cross already displaying the large leaf of plieanthum and red from delavayi. i guess the 2 species influence the shape too
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Thank you, Maggi. I'll get the salt dish out and try to apply a pinch when necessary. Have to say that the family enjoy pulling my leg and I don't mind too much.
John, what have you got in the pots stacked in the greenhouse (or are you pulling my leg again?). Your climate seems to be similar to ours apart from your higher rainfall and Podophyllum is fine in the ground here.
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Margaret - The stacked pots could be anything but mainly cyclamen, rhododendrons, nerines, vireyas, seedlings, bamboos, rhodophialas, hellebores etc etc. And the barn/coach house is full on the main floor as well.
I'm afraid our winters are brutal compared to yours over there. I assume you mean Greenwich as in GMT and not Greenwich, Nova Scotia! Or is this a clever touché? ;)
johnw
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Hi John.. I think I have the cross already displaying the large leaf of plieanthum and red from delavayi. i guess the 2 species influence the shape too
Good to hear. I'm sure there is more trouble to get into with this group.
johnw
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John,
A few years ago, I pollinated Podo delavayi with Podo aurantiocaule and vice versa. P.aurantiocaule did not set seed (it usually does when left alone). P. delavayi however produced fruits with viable seed (it usually does not when left to itself). Photo1 2 3 4 :delavayi seedlings pollinated with aurantiocaule,no flowers yet.
Robin
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Robin - It would appear there's a lot of potential there. Keep up the good work.
When aurantiocaule flowers in the next few years we will have to try our hand at it; we have 2 different aurantiocaules and I wonder what you think? One big big teeth (picture #2) and fine hairs on the edge, the other many more fine hairs (picture #1 in the foreground).
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John,
It is difficult to sort out young Podos. The shape and colour of the leaves can change when they get older . And no flowers to tell different forms or subspecies apart.
Robin
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Robin, those delavayi hybrids are extraordinary - like snowflakes 8)
These are from seed received as Podophyllum mairei (or possibly P. mairei hybrids) in August 2009, but they look more like straight P. pleianthum to me. What do you think?
Regardless of what the label says, they’re stunning plants and I’m delighted with them.
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Ashley,
I agree with you:stunning plants and probably straight pleianthum.
Some pics of a good foliage form of a dwarf Podo difforme with three leaves .
Robin
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Ashley, how great looking plant you have. :)
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Thanks for ID confirmation Robin as I don't know much about podos.
Yes I love them too Leena. They're especially dramatic as the folded leaves emerge in the spring, and the flowers are such an intense colour - quite a unique 'old' red.
If they set seed then you're welcome to some later in the summer. Presumably they should be hardy enough there in southern Finland.
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They are lovely and I like your dwarf form with those lovely marked leaves Robin.
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John, It is difficult to sort out young Podos. The shape and colour of the leaves can change when they get older . And no flowers to tell different forms or subspecies apart.Robin
True enough - Here is Trond's aurantiocaule that was plain green until this year. It will surely get even better!
johnw
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Robin - These are quite fantastic difformes. At lastr I get 3-4 to live but I find the stems are particularly brittle whereas the bigger-leafed spp. like pleianthum which one would expect to get battered in the wind are fine.
I too may have pleianthum instead of mairiei, can you give us some diagnostics? I guess time to order some seed!
johnw - +11c and fog lifting, hint of sun. 15-30mm tonight, we are parched...........
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John
Your 'pleianthum x versipelle' look very interesting, will be interested to hear where the blooms appear, on leaf or at the fork. I made this cross both ways this spring and, so far, pods are still developing and haven't dropped so I hope for seed. Not sure on the yellow, but here I constantly fight off podophyllum rust which gives yellow leaf spots but never seen a pattern like that one, just expanding spots.
Ashley
From your photos, I would have called your plants P. versipelle (spelling?) as they appear to bloom from under the leaf rather than at the leaf fork. Also my pleianthum have much larger flowers which are more 'frilly'.
Geo
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Thanks George. I'm very unclear about distinctions within the pleianthum/versipelle/mairei complex, and probably I'm not alone because this topic crops up on the forum almost every year.
Indeed most of my plants are flowering from a point 3-5 cm below the leaf, but one is also flowering from the leaf axil :-\
Flower size is about 2 cm, petals becoming more crinkled and fading over time.
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Ashley - Aaron will probably post soon once he gets his feet back on the ground, he's just back from Arunachal.
The bin here has a few Podos in it as Aaron said he did see virus on aurantios in the wild and he thought that was virus on 3 plants here so out they went.
Geo - the hybrids seem to vary as to flower placement......
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John
Thanks for the last photo. The flower seems to have longish segments approaching that of pleianthum, but the leaf seems more rough-edged like the versipelle. How many seasons from seed to bloom?
Ashley
Segments on my pleianthum are about about 4 cm and loosely held like those shown in John's photo above.
George
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George
If attended to they can grow frightfully fast. We have had some in 2 gal pots by June from a Nov sowing with flowering the next year. We are not so focused these days............... ;)
john
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If attended to they can grow frightfully fast. We have had some in 2 gal pots by June from a Nov sowing with flowering the next year.
Mercy! It's a wonder your weren't done for speeding!
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Indeed John that is really fast growing,A few times I have had a green leaved Podo species flowering in his third year but normally it takes 4 years (after sowing) before my Podos start flowering.
Photo 1: Flowers of Podo peltatum x pleianthum(pollen)
Photo 2 Podo delavayi x pleianthum
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Indeed John that is really fast growing,A few times I have had a green leaved Podo species flowering in his third year but normally it takes 4 years (after sowing) before my Podos start flowering.
Photo 1: Flowers of Podo peltatum x pleianthum(pollen)
Photo 2 Podo delavayi x pleianthum
Robin
Fast yes but we have no space for all those 2 gallons and the work making the mix was too much and too expensive (a 200km drive to get our precious 40 year old rotted bark in bags). Sodium halides on all winter 12 hrs/ day. We simply potted on the minute roots touched the outer edges, that's when we though we couldn't disturb the roots - no easier plant to move indoors year round. We wouldn't have such problems if everyone of your seed didn't sprout! :o
Your del x plei looks great, are they all they short and compact. Ours and Philip's tend to be higher which is hazardous in a windy climate like here.
john
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robin
Did you make the peltatum X pleianthum cross? I've tried it several times with no success, but keep trying both ways every year.
Flowers look roughly as I expected, but the branched pedicle is unexpected.
George
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Robin - Does that peltatum x pleianthum cross work both ways?
Last year we had a very isolated pleianthum set seed in a garden where only emodi grows and wondered if that cross would work in that direction as well.
johnw
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John , George
The peltatum x pleianthum cross works in both ways.Five years ago, Dr Jim Mc clements sent us a piece of the cross he made between pleianthum(female) and peltatum pollen: Photo 1 . We did it the other way with a peltatum mother and pleianthum and delavayi pollen. We only had one peltatum clone at that time who never had produced a fruit untill then ( peltatum is usually selfinfertile).Both the pleianthum and the delavayi pollen (on different flowers) produced large peltatum fruits with lots of fleshy stuff, many non viable flat seeds and one or two viable ones.We were lucky: one seed of each cross germinated. The pleianthum cross grew on with vigour:photo 2 while the delavayi cross just survives (still in the one leaf phase after 5 years).
Photo 1 Pleianthum x peltatum leaves
Photo 2 peltatum x pleianthum leaves
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Robin
Your number 4 :delavayi seedlings pollinated with aurantiocaule is very unusual.. And yes very snow flake looking with this cross as it's been said....amazing!
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Robin
Excellent photos of the foliage. Obviously more deeply dissected than pleianthum in general. Peltatum is native on my land here and some are so deeply dissected as to seem palmately compound. Also, many show wonderful coloration on spring foliage although these turn all green later.
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George,
The lobing of the leaves on your picture is very regular; Could this be P. peltatum var annulare?
Robin
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John,
I have experienced that Podo delavayi can be pollinated by almost any other Podo species while Podo hexandrum can only be pollinated by itself and Podo pleianthum very reluctantly gets pollinated by another species.
Do you have the same experience?
Robin
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Robin,
I'm more of a lumper than a splitter, so I hesitate to give a subs. or var. to most plants. This is typical of many of the forms around this area, although some clones have dissection only about 50% toward the center. This photo is part of a large (probably mostly monoclonal) colony about 3 m x 4 m in size right off the edge of my rear deck, larger leaves seem to stay as regular but get more serrations on the outer edges.
You can already see start of rust spotting on these. One of the banes of my existence, very resistant to fungicides. :'(
George
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Just in case anyone didn't know, is new, forgot....etc....... there are five pages of glorious Podophyllums here http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5449.0 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5449.0) 8)
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You can already see start of rust spotting on these. One of the banes of my existence, very resistant to fungicides. :'(
George[/quote]
George - What are the symptoms of rust on these?
johnw
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John
There is a rust specific to podophyllum which is commonly called 'Mayapple Rust'. Starts as small yellow spots visible on surface of leaf and reddish 'rust' areas under them. Spots multiply and grow until entire leaf is involved, and the leaf curls and dies.
Luckily, the asiatics seem more resistant to it.
Here is a link about it:http://www.fungimag.com/spring-2013-articles/LRV6I1Mayapple.pdf (http://www.fungimag.com/spring-2013-articles/LRV6I1Mayapple.pdf)