Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Ed Alverson on March 07, 2014, 02:00:21 AM
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We have finally had enough warm weather so that some of the early yellow Erythroniums - E. grandiflorum and E. tuolumnense - are starting to flower in my garden. So I thought the timing was good to start a new thread for this year.
I don't have photos of anything new to post at this time, but I thought I would share a quote I recently came across from the book "Plants of the Pacific Northwest Coast", by Pojar and Mackinnon. Under the description of E. oregonum, it says "Erythronium species have unusual below-ground structures, consisting of a bulb with only one scale, and a segmented corm made of round annual segments, just like a string of beads".
This gives me a different take on the debate about whether the underground structure of Erythronium is a bulb or a corm - apparently it has both a bulb (modified leaf) and a corm (modified stem). I'm not a morphologist, but it makes sense to me, particularly with a species like E. montanum, where the corms persist in a sort of a chain for multiple years.
Ed
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That is exactly what Ian has been saying about Erythroniums for years - there is also a case for it being a creeping rhizome with the chains , too. Complex little beauties, for sure!
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In that case ............
Erythronium caucasicum in flower today .
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And also in flower E. dens-canis ssp. niveum .
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We only have E. caucasicum out here so far - it is always the earliest- and it is always one particular plant which is the first.
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Actually, I do have something new today - a pot of Erythronium citrinum, raised from seed (Ratko 07-224) is blooming now for the first time. It took 7 years to flower, though that it probably is more a testimony to my negligent approach to horticulture than anything else. I had previously tried this species from seed I collected myself, without success, but I guess this goes to show you that if at first you don't succeed, keep trying (and be patient)!
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My first E. dens-canis is open today. My little group, bought from Avon Bulbs, are very irregular in habit. One up and flowering, 2 others just showing tips of leaves and no sign yet of the others.
Erle
Anglesey
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That's a plant worth waiting for though, Ed. Such a dainty flower, perfect colour combination and great leaves too!
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The slugs have found all mine! Can't (and probably will not be able to) add more than that.
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That's a plant worth waiting for though, Ed. Such a dainty flower, perfect colour combination and great leaves too!
Another thing I like about this plant, and Erythroniums in general, is the way the flowers dance on the breeze. Of course this doesn't come through on a still photo...
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One more E. caucasicum. In the wild.
(http://cs408720.vk.me/v408720879/afcf/C3DzsWssoaI.jpg)
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One more E. caucasicum. In the wild.
(http://cs408720.vk.me/v408720879/afcf/C3DzsWssoaI.jpg)
Lovely plant!!!
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The slugs have found all mine! Can't (and probably will not be able to) add more than that.
Oh no! That's a real horror story- you have my sympathy.
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One more E. caucasicum. In the wild.
Great to see them in the wild Olga ,thanks for sharing this nice picture !
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Kris, Steve thank you!
And more E. caucasicum & co.
(http://cs408720.vk.me/v408720879/b1a1/e96JVSh1mRM.jpg)
(http://cs408720.vk.me/v408720879/afb8/vqoTJ0bVnCo.jpg)
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I love these!
Would mine be E. dens-canis???
Olga, or anyone... why I can only see small black boxes with an X ?
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Just caught up on this thread.
One more E. caucasicum. In the wild.
It's wonderful to see this plant in the wild Olga.
My plant is also flowering now. I find it quite slow to clump up.
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The lovely type of Erythroniom dens canis alba (or nearly so) from forum member Udo:
very big flowers and rather early
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Pristine and beautiful Pauli.
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Olga, very beautiful pictures as always.
E. caucasicum is the first Erythronium in my garden.
Poul
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My Erythronium caucasicum is just only sprouting, I send here my picture from the last year.
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Pauli, nice Erythronium dens-canis ssp.niveum,
mostly some days after caucasicum and around two weeks before 'Snowflake'
Here in flower this weekend,
Erythronium umbilicatum,
one of the first from the american species
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Erythronium dens-canis in flower this weekend.
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Very nice photo, Franz.
A first for me Erythronium japonicum
Poul
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I'm really enjoying see everyone's Erythroniums photos.
Here are a few of mine that are flowering at the moment:
Erythronium tuolumnense EB A clone.
Erythronium japonicum.
Erythronium tuolumnense.
Erythronium revolutum 'Knightshayes Pink'
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Erythronium hendersonii.
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Erythronium hendersonii.
Glad you did that , Michael, I was about to ask you if you minded if I reposted them!
Lovely Erythroniums , everyone !
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Lovely Erythroniums folks and so much earlier than mine. What a beautiful picture Michael. I have Pagoda in bud, just one flower open in a clump of White Beauty and many more to come but my Knightshays Pink only just through. The other I have in flower is this one (sorry for lousy picture) which could be E. californicum. Could someone confirm or otherwise please?
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Erythronium revolutum (better photo added 4/2/14):
[attach=1]
The many small plants are from seed which I collected and scattered the last two summers.
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The other I have in flower is this one (sorry for lousy picture) which could be E. californicum. Could someone confirm or otherwise please?
No way that is californicum David - it is E. tuolumnense
E. californicum has marked leaves and creamy flowers with dark markings in the throat .
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Thanks Maggi. I've just this minute come off looking at Erythroniums on Susan's Site and it was obvious mine wasn't californicum, I knew I hadn't bought americanum so it must have been tuolumnense.
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My Erythronium caucasicum is just only sprouting, I send here my picture from the last year.
Zdenek, you've got here really E. sibiricum album ;D
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Here E. caucasicum from the wild 'Russian forest tract' in the N. Caucasus. This race flowers have yellowish tint!!!
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Beautiful plant of E. caucasicum. We don't have erythroniums seeding with the freedom of Gene's picture but this little patch of E. revolutum mixed up with wood anemones is seeding around a lot and should begin to look good in a few years. Love these woodland communities.
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I've been cutting bouquets of cut Erythronium flowers in to my local coffee shop to display on the counter. They have been generating a great deal of interest from the customers. Everyone wants to know what they are. This particular batch includes E. hendersonii, E. oregonum leucandrum, and E. revolutum.
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I'm really enjoying see everyone's Erythroniums photos.
Here are a few of mine that are flowering at the moment:
Erythronium tuolumnense EB A clone.
Tell me more about "Erythronium tuolumnense EB A clone". There seem to be a number of distinct clones of this species in cultivation, but some of them are not all that great, perhaps selected for abundant production of offsets rather than good flowers. The good clones need to be pointed out!
Ed
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I've been cutting bouquets of cut Erythronium flowers in to my local coffee shop to display on the counter. They have been generating a great deal of interest from the customers. Everyone wants to know what they are. This particular batch includes E. hendersonii, E. oregonum leucandrum, and E. revolutum.
Lucky customers Ed :D
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Hi Ed
The Erythronium tuolumnense EB Clone A is shorter in stature and has bigger flowers than Erythronium tuolumnense. I think the EB may be E.B Anderson but I'm not 100% sure, so if anybody else can add to this I would be interested to know!
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More info on the EB Anderson and erythroniums from his "stable -
------in a Bulb Log of 2008 http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/140208/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/140208/log.html) Ian writes of some other E.B. Anderson hybrids "Two similar plants, raised by E.B. Anderson and passed on to Kath Dryden with the number EBA 4656 have been named by Kath Dryden. Erythronium 'Jeanette Brickell' and E. 'Margaret Mathew' are both basically creamy white and look superficially like E. 'White Beauty' and share the same ease of cultivation. E. 'Jeanette Brickell' is not pink as it appears in the excellent book 'Bulbs' by Roger Phillips and Martin Rix this is most likely a trick of the printers ink."
-----E. 'Margaret Mathew' Raised by E.B.Anderson around 1956 and numbered EBA 4656. Named by Kath Dryden and thought to be a hybrid between E.oregonum and E.tuolumnense
E. 'Jeanette Brickell' hybrid made in 1956 by E.B. Anderson, but named only in 1978 ..... not likely to have tuolumnense as a parent given their colouring.
-------in a report on Wisley trials 1994 http://apps.rhs.org.uk/planttrials/TrialReports/Erythronium%201994.pdf (http://apps.rhs.org.uk/planttrials/TrialReports/Erythronium%201994.pdf)
It is perhaps worth noting that W.B. Anderson is mentioned in Elmer Applegate's erythronium papers from 1925 - so there is a chance for confusion there!
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Thanks Maggi, that is helpful information. It sounds as if E. tuolumnense "EB A clone" is a form that has not been named but its provenance has been retained as it has been passed around.
The Andersons mentioned in Applegate's monograph are cited as collectors of other species (not E. tuolumnense), mostly in British Columbia, and not in California. Checking the Consortium of California Herbaria web site, the only Anderson who collected Erythronium specimens in California herbaria was a D.E. Anderson, who collected in the 1960's and 1970's. This person, however, did not collect E. tuolumnense. So, your suggestion that "EB A" refers to EB Anderson makes sense to me.
By the way, I wanted to mention that the Erythronium monograph by Elmer Applegate you referred to is now archived on JStor and can be downloaded as a pdf from http://www.jstor.org/stable/41422138. (http://www.jstor.org/stable/41422138.) You need to have JStor access to download the pdf, however you can apparently read it online for free. However, if anyone would like to have me send them the pdf I'd be happy to do so, just send me a PM. I can also send pdf's of other journal articles from North American journals that are not easily accessed, at least outside of a university library. Just let me know.
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E. hendersonii. Much darker than yours David. Not a very satisfactory shot and how did I manage not to see that label?
Erle
Anglesey
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Erle, I think that was Micheal Campbells, mine was tulumnense
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Nice pictures from all.
Here some new flowers in my garden:
Ery.sibiricum
Ery.tolumnense in a dwarf form
Ery.oregonum ssp.leucandrum
and two cultivars:
Ery. Joanna
Ery. Sundisc
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Can someone name this Erythronium?
I only have one Erythronium in the front garden, E. citrinum var. roderickii, but I haven't seen it for years. This caught my eye today
Trying to establish E. revolutum over many years by seed has failed
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Possibly a pale-flowered hendersonii?
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Lovely set of pictures Dirk.
Mark have you tried seed from Knightshayes Pink? I've had very good germination from the seed I sowed last year.
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David I've also tried Kinfauns Pink and Snowgoose. Nothing ever grows. I simply scatter them where I want them to be
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I sowed mine the proper way ;D
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Thank you for the information Ed and Maggi. Does Ian sell any of his wonderful Erythroniums?
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Thank you Ed for all the information. It will certainly keep me busy for awhile.
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Here is one of my Erythronium hendersonii flowering beautifully this year :D
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The strange case of Erythronium #98 (seed collected along California highway 299, about 30 miles from the coast): this is what they looked like in April 2013:
[attach=1]
This is what they look like today:
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
What happened to the pink markings? Can anybody identify this species? The flowers are much more yellow than my E. californicum, and the leaves are more narrow.
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Maybe they will develop the pink as they fade. Were they all like that last year. Certainly lovely
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Last year, every seedling from that collection had the pink markings. It was their first year to bloom. This year, no trace of the pink. I moved them to a new location after they went dormant last year. I'm sure it's not a labeling error.
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A trip in the easternmost E. dens-canis population at the plain Ukraine. This one has the darkest-colored flowers, just the same as in E. sibiricum.
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A trip in the easternmost E. dens-canis population at the plain Ukraine. This one has the darkest-colored flowers, just the same as in E. sibiricum.
WOW Wish my dens-canis looked like these
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A trip in the easternmost E. dens-canis population at the plain Ukraine. This one has the darkest-colored flowers, just the same as in E. sibiricum.
Lovely colour :)
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Erythronium 'Minnehaha' flowering yesterday is slightly nicer weather.
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Jane
Super plant - does it always have this number of flowers?
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Erythronium oregonum:
[attach=1]
Erythronium mixed western US species and hybrids:
[attach=2]
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Jane
Super plant - does it always have this number of flowers?
Hi Arthur
She gets better every year. I would like to split her but don't have the heart to do it!
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Today while weeding I discovered two seedling Erythroniums flowering for the first time - E. revolutum and something self sown from either Kinfauns Pink or Harvington Snowgoose
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Wrong planting???
My E. dens-canis could be in the wrong spot? It's quite in shade (coming from neighbor's house not trees) and close to a fountain (water). They don't seem to thrive, not multiply, and I've noticed some strange yellow spots on the leaves. Like rust.
Should I move them?
In summer... it gets really hot and dry...
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Here is one of my seedlings. Its growing beside Kinfauns Pink
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Interesting delicate pink stripe on the petals Mark. Going back to the E.B. Anderson seedlings I think this must be 'Margaret Mathew' - I just had it under a number from Kath Dryden and have lost the original label. It has taken quite a few years to reach this size. Most named forms are always going to be quite rare, but plants like 'Pagoda' are superb garden plants and popular at our local market, so must work on this!
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Here is one of my seedlings. Its growing beside Kinfauns Pink
I stupidly planted Kinfauns Pink and Harvington Snowgoose almost side by side. I think I bought them in 2010 because my first photos for both were in 2011. They are now too close and multiplying fast. When can I lift them? Will they have gone deep?
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I think this is E. revolutum. Given to me long ago as a seedling.
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A few Snowgooses/geese
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Now that the seedling in the front garden has matured does anyone want to comment on the species or possibility of it being a hybrid involving E. revolutum? Were it is growing I had scattered seeds collected from E. revolutum.
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E. hendersonii , Mark.
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Thanks. Maybe I sneaked some seeds from something else - blush :-[ :D It will have to be moved because its being swamped by Narcissus and Galanthus leaves and emerging geranium leaves
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No hurry to move it, Mark - in a few weeks the erythronium will have died back anyway so the overgrowing things won't bother it much.
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Here are a few Erythroniums looking good at the moment, 'Janice' and umbilicatum :)
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The strange case of Erythronium #98 (seed collected along California highway 299, about 30 miles from the coast)
What happened to the pink markings? Can anybody identify this species? The flowers are much more yellow than my E. californicum, and the leaves are more narrow.
Gene, the key feature to look at in detail, I think, is the anther filaments. Compare the filaments on these plants to the filaments on E. californicum (cylindrical) and E. revolutum (distinctly flattened). If these plants have any genetic influence from E. revolutum they will have somewhat flattened filaments, since those of E. californicum are terete. While hybrids typically combine the morphological influences of each parent, they are not necessarily always intermediate in every character. If this is some sort of hybrid between E. californicum, and E. revolutum, the expression of the "pink" genes might be influenced by exposure, etc. As I recall there is quite a bit of variability in flower color in E. elegans, for example, which may be an analogous situation of sorts.
Ed
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My dog's teeth plants blooming now in SE Ukraine (already more likely in Russia)
Erythronium krylovii sp.n. from the Altai forests
E. dens-canis from the easternmost Ukrainian locus of area
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My dog's teeth plants blooming now in SE Ukraine (already more likely in Russia)
My E. sibiricum seedlings' first bloom of mystic blue color.... ???
The seeds were collected from E. sibiricum "Белый Царь - White Tsar" (originator - G. Skakunov)
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Keep safe Dima.
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Keep safe Dima.
Indeed - our thoughts are with you at this dangerous time.
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Erythronium krylovii sp.n. from the Altai forests
A lovely plant - described as : Erythronium krylovii Stepanov
Vestn. Krasnoyarsk. Gosud. Agrar. Univ. 8: 62. 2011 - and with a synonym shown as Erythronium sibiricum ssp. altaicum Rukšāns
More photos http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/35163.html (http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/35163.html) - including some from Nikolai Stepanov.
Is there an online copy of the description, Dima?
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The ?seedling in my little woodland bed is maturing nicely. Does anyone recognise it as a species? I don't remember planting it
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Wonderful Erythroniums everyone.
Gene there are a couple of e. revolutums with stunning foliage in your photo.
I managed to get hold of e. revolutum 'God's valley form' on Saturday. The large flowers have gone over however it is particularly noted for its beautifully marked foliage.
There are patches of seedlings in my garden that I hope one day will put on a show Like Ian's & Maggi's.
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Zdenek, you've got here really E. sibiricum album ;D
Thanks for your notice, Dimitri. I have come to my computer only today, sorry.
It is quite surprise for me. Are there any more differences between those two except the yellowish tint ?
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The ?seedling in my little woodland bed is maturing nicely. Does anyone recognise it as a species? I don't remember planting it
It's a californicum, Mark, similar to White Beauty
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Thanks Maggi. I have no idea where it came from
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will I self pollinate it?
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Thanks for your notice, Dimitri. I have come to my computer only today, sorry.
It is quite surprise for me. Are there any more differences between those two except the yellowish tint ?
For me , caucasicum leaf markings are more all over the leaf and there are more brown - edit - Dima says they're red not brown! - marks in the flower throat - not very scientific, I know!
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will I self pollinate it?
Why not? Though if it has come from a White Beauty originally it may prove to be good at increasing vegetatively.
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I managed to get hold of e. revolutum 'God's valley form' on Saturday. The large flowers have gone over however it is particularly noted for its beautifully marked foliage.
There are patches of seedlings in my garden that I hope one day will put on a show Like Ian's & Maggi's.
Thanks, Mike! With God's Valley form and its like you will soon get there.
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Thanks, Margaret.
I enclose here also one of eleven flovers from the last week on my carpet of 1,5 m diameter of Erythronium americanum.
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Erythronium revolutum
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5212/13896513605_f243703927_o_d.jpg)
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2851/13896934574_b74a97f9ab_o_d.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7228/13896585373_e20519ec15_o_d.jpg)
Thrives in the cool damp Scottish climate! ;)
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Thrives in the cool damp Scottish climate! ;)
It certainly does, a wonderful clump Steve.
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Thanks for your notice, Dimitri. I have come to my computer only today, sorry.
It is quite surprise for me. Are there any more differences between those two except the yellowish tint ?
Zdenek, the difference is obvious just at first sight as for me - please, compare yourself these erythroniums plants - E. sibiricum white form and caucasicum from W Transcaucasus. In two words, E. sibiricum is huge plant with big broad-petaled flowers, it has some white forms with not at all marked leaves with slightly bronze tint. Even now some white population of it in Altai are separated as a species - E. krylovii.
E. caucasicum is much dwarfer plant having elegant white flowers as a rule with narrow petals, rarely pinkish or yellowish. And Maggi is right it has very marked leaves, also to add it has white flowers with contrast reddish (not brownish!!) petal bases and stems.
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Sorry, Dima - yes I will admit that reddish is a better description that brown! :-[
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Sorry, Dima - yes I will admit that reddish is a better description that brown! :-[
Maggi ;D ;D besides, your Ers different Craigton's cultivars vegetate quiet well at me in eastern Ukraine - I'm still waiting for soon bloom!!! many thanks for plants and for warm wishes about our terrible Ukraine...............
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Erythronium hendersonii
Three different clones.
The palest clone (first two images) has a yellow halo around the blackcurrant centre of the flower which fades as the flower matures. The second clone is darker in flower (images 3 & 4). The darkest clone flowers significantly earlier than the other two and so often shows some frost damage in the flowers (image 5).
Unfortunately all are slow to clump up.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3707/13902474005_a54d0ee753_o_d.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7304/13902473125_9b9dbfc630_o_d.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7068/13902889514_308dd88fce_o_d.jpg)
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2810/13902524833_5c60cbfe04_o_d.jpg)
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2819/13902887774_85b86877f9_o_d.jpg)
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Following on from Ian's comments on particularly Erythronium revolutum in this weeks Bulb Log I thought I would post a few pictures here of todays visit to Knightshayes Court here in Devon.
Knightshayes is the place, of course, where E revolutum 'Knightshayes Pink' was first selected and there are huge drifts of them in the wooded areas with some forms of a lighter pink.
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It doesn't take a lot of looking to find white revolutums (at least to my untrained eye they are possibly white revolutums)
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A Spring mixture; and to end one of only very few yellow Erythroniums at Knightshayes
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The wide expanses of revolutum are just breathtaking, David.
The white is not a revolutum- its a californicum hyybrid - white pollen and narrow filaments.
Beautiful - but not as glorious as the pinks, eh?
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Nice Erythroniums everyone.
David that is amazing to see the mass displays of revolutum.
And Dimitri nice to see thoses wild ones.
Steve Garvie, nice to see thoses close ups of revolutum with dew hanging on them. Makes me wonder with all that damp weather that Erythroniums never suffer from botrytis?? Never seen botrytis here but we are very much dryer.
cheers
Stephen
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Nice Erythroniums everyone.
...................
Steve Garvie, nice to see thoses close ups of revolutum with dew hanging on them. Makes me wonder with all that damp weather that Erythroniums never suffer from botrytis?? Never seen botrytis here but we are very much dryer.
cheers
Stephen
Thanks Stephen, that's raindrops rather than dew. Also get a lot of wind here so I've never seen botrytis on plants in the open garden. I suppose it could be a problem in plants grown under glass protection.
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Steve just noticed the hendersonii clones, i didn't know they come in such varied colours, we only have the mauve one here that I've noticed. I know of grower here that uses this for hybridising for those tall branching flower arrangement.
What's the origin of yours if you don't mind me asking? They are very nice.
Cheers
Stephen
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Hi Stephen,
I procured these plants about 20 years ago and the labels have long been lost so I don't have exact details. One came from the late Kath Dryden (England) whilst another was from Ian Christie (Kirriemuir, Scotland), the third was from seed obtained from Ron Ratko (USA), only a handful germinated and all appeared quite similar (-the almost white plants pictured above with the fading yellow halo around the dark centre; the amount of yellow flare varies between individuals but otherwise they are very similar).
Cheers,
Steve
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Hi Stephen,
I procured these plants about 20 years ago and the labels have long been lost so I don't have exact details. One came from the late Kath Dryden (England) whilst another was from Ian Christie (Kirriemuir, Scotland), the third was from seed obtained from Ron Ratko (USA), only a handful germinated and all appeared quite similar (-the almost white plants pictured above with the fading yellow halo around the dark centre; the amount of yellow flare varies between individuals but otherwise they are very similar).
Cheers,
Steve
Steve, are you saying that the first of your photos (the light flowered E. hendersonii) is from Ron Ratko seed? It looks to me like it could be a hybrid with E. oregonum, with the yellow halo and slightly flattened filaments a result of the genetic influence of E. oregonum. There are a few places where the ranges of these two species meet and natural hybrids are found, so it could be that Ron was collecting from one of these areas...
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An attractive Erythronium hybrid here : http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9360.msg303355#msg303355 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9360.msg303355#msg303355)
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Steve, are you saying that the first of your photos (the light flowered E. hendersonii) is from Ron Ratko seed? It looks to me like it could be a hybrid with E. oregonum, with the yellow halo and slightly flattened filaments a result of the genetic influence of E. oregonum. There are a few places where the ranges of these two species meet and natural hybrids are found, so it could be that Ron was collecting from one of these areas...
Exactly my thoughts Ed, when ever I see yellow in the flower of E. hendersonii I suspect it is a hybrid and clearly the filaments in Steve's picture show some flattening - non the less it is a wonderful plant and may have that added advantage that many hybrids have is that it will increase by division.
Taking of hybrids I have been assessing some in flower just now mostly E. revolutum hybrids with either E. oregonum or E. californicum - I show some below.
1- Hybrid 1 has the best leaves.
2- Hybrid 1 flower has the darkest centre marking
3- Hybrid 2 leaves
4- Hybrid 2 flower
5- Hybrid 3 leaves
Many of these have very similar flowers I have a few with much darker flowers.
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A sister seedling to the hybrids in the last post that looks like it is just the species E. revolutum, no visual evidence suggests otherwise.
Now a group of Erythronium revolutum with multi flowered stems.
Close up of showing many stems have three flowers.
On the other end of the scale is this small Erythronum revolutum - I see it very distinct from most of the other E. revolutums we grow. It is always small single flowered and it's flowers have a distinct shape and way of reflexing- I call it wild form but many of our original forms were also raised from seed of wild origins.
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Wonderful patterning on those leaves Ian, I might be developing another plant infatuation ;)
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Ian,
Your Erythroniums are awesome! ;)
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Exactly my thoughts Ed, when ever I see yellow in the flower of E. hendersonii I suspect it is a hybrid and clearly the filaments in Steve's picture show some flattening - non the less it is a wonderful plant and may have that added advantage that many hybrids have is that it will increase by division.
Taking of hybrids I have been assessing some in flower just now mostly E. revolutum hybrids with either E. oregonum or E. californicum - I show some below.
1- Hybrid 1 has the best leaves.
2- Hybrid 1 flower has the darkest centre marking
3- Hybrid 2 leaves
4- Hybrid 2 flower
5- Hybrid 3 leaves
Many of these have very similar flowers I have a few with much darker flowers.
Steve, are you saying that the first of your photos (the light flowered E. hendersonii) is from Ron Ratko seed? It looks to me like it could be a hybrid with E. oregonum, with the yellow halo and slightly flattened filaments a result of the genetic influence of E. oregonum. There are a few places where the ranges of these two species meet and natural hybrids are found, so it could be that Ron was collecting from one of these areas...
Hi Ed and Ian. Many thanks for your comments.
The first two images are of the same "plant" with image one showing a fresh flower and the second image showing the mature flower (with fading yellow halo, though the amount of yellow varied between different flowers). I have long lost the original labels but think that the pale plants are probably from Ron Ratko seed. Of the three "hendersonii" types I have this is the one that most readily multiplies up (though is still quite slow). I hadn't given any thought to this plant being a natural hybrid (I suspect that the "plant" is actually a few different individuals grown from seed -perhaps part of a hybrid swarm containing oregonum genes with some flowers expressing more oregonum trait than others?).
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I'm with you Brian - erythroniums are so beautiful even when you only grow 'White Beauty' and 'Pagoda', but my eyes are really being opened to them! Dimitri's picture of E. caucasicum with those orange-red stems stands out, along with some of these hendersonii hybrids. Really wonderful plants. I wonder if Ray Drew has increased his collection after his tremendous display at the Essex AGS Local Group Show last year? I remember in particular 'Craighton Cover Girl' - great name!
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'Craighton Cover Girl' - actually 'Craigton Cover Girl' - no "h" in there - got her name when she was featured on the cover of a copy of The Rock Garden - Number 108 of January 2002- http://files.srgc.net/journals/vol_1%20to_113/108.pdf. (http://files.srgc.net/journals/vol_1%20to_113/108.pdf.)
Bit of a shock to realise that is twelve years ago now.
That issue contains Ian's article on growing "Bulbs from Seed" pages 202 -211.
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'Craigton Cover Girl' on her first public appearance.....
[attachimg=1]
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The wide expanses of revolutum are just breathtaking, David.
The white is not a revolutum- its a californicum hyybrid - white pollen and narrow filaments.
Beautiful - but not as glorious as the pinks, eh?
At one time, "White Beauty" was commonly listed as a selection of E. revolutum, which would explain why one might think it should be E. revolutum. Just to complicate the situation, there is a population in northern California that has white flowers but otherwise morphologically matches E. revolutum. I have not yet had a chance to see it in the wild, but there is a photo on p. 218 of the book "California's Wild Gardens" (which by the way is an excellent guide to the wonder's of California's flora).
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A sister seedling to the hybrids in the last post that looks like it is just the species E. revolutum, no visual evidence suggests otherwise.
Now a group of Erythronium revolutum with multi flowered stems.
Close up of showing many stems have three flowers.
On the other end of the scale is this small Erythronum revolutum - I see it very distinct from most of the other E. revolutums we grow. It is always small single flowered and it's flowers have a distinct shape and way of reflexing- I call it wild form but many of our original forms were also raised from seed of wild origins.
Ian, I like your small, single-flowered reflexed E. revolutum - it improves on some of the "deficiencies" (if one could use that term for Erythronium) of E. revolutum. Even in the wild most populations I see have flowers that do not open up or reflex very well, and in the garden the leaves can be a bit more "beefy" than one might like.
One additional benefit of growing plants from seed, as you so often promote, is that the more seedlings you grow the better the odds that one of your plants might be one of the 0.1% that increase by offsets.
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Ed with regard to a white Erythronium revolutum most of what I have seen in cultivation with that name are either E. oregonum, californicum or a hybrid however I have been watching a white seedling in our garden for three years now and I see no eveidence that is not consistent with E.revolutum.
As you might suspect it shows no signs of wanting to increase.
I showed it in last weeks bulb log along with many others.
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Knightshayes is breathtaking in the spring isn't it David........sadly I've not managed to get there to see the erythroniums this year.
Wonderful photos everyone.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere:
http://www.kewbooks.com/asps/ShowDetails.asp?id=1046&utm_source=Spring+2014&utm_campaign=Spring+2014&utm_medium=email (http://www.kewbooks.com/asps/ShowDetails.asp?id=1046&utm_source=Spring+2014&utm_campaign=Spring+2014&utm_medium=email)
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Keith Wiley and his Erythroniums coming up on gardeners world
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What a sight they were!
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Lovely erythroniums - guess what Keith Wiley and the BD speak about when they are together......... ::) ;D
Loved that John Mitchell showed R. de T. the Hepatica falconeri that was in the last RBGE display at the Edinburgh show and which has featured in the forum . 8)
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Lovely erythroniums - guess what Keith Wiley and the BD speak about when they are together......... ::) ;D
Loved that John Mitchell showed R. de T. the Hepatica falconeri that was in the last RBGE display at the Edinburgh show and which has featured in the forum . 8)
Fab programme for a change
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Lovely erythroniums - guess what Keith Wiley and the BD speak about when they are together......... ::) ;D
Petunias?
;D
cheers
fermi
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First GW I've watched right through last night. What a nice change.... Even gushy CK couldn't trump the swathes of erythroniums......
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For those who missed it and cant wait for tomorrows repeat
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04252sx/Gardeners_World_2014_Episode_8/ (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04252sx/Gardeners_World_2014_Episode_8/)
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Erythronium elegans:
[attach=1]
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I agree Chris & Mark it was a decent programme at last.
I visited Keith's new Wildside garden a few years ago to buy erythroniums. I noticed thick clumps of them growing in full sun on the slopes he'd dug into the landscape.
The garden now looks much more mature from seeing CK's piece on Gardeners World.
I don't think the garden is open at all during 2015.
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I don't think the garden is open at all during 2015.
It appears not
http://www.wileyatwildside.com/4.html (http://www.wileyatwildside.com/4.html)
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For those who missed it and cant wait for tomorrows repeat
It knows where I am. There is a big bar across the tulip picture which says Not available in your area.
I feel left out.
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It knows where I am. There is a big bar across the tulip picture which says Not available in your area.
I feel left out.
Fiendishly cunning, the BBC - if only they consistently made programmes with as much attention to detail :-X
At least we're pleased to have you here, Diane :)
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Western North American Erythronium species tend to struggle here in my Midwestern garden. Here is a valiant E. multiscapideum hanging on:
[attach=1]
and here is another one still with us:
[attach=2]
Once upon a time, there were more of them in these spots. I think that West Coast plants of all kinds, evolved with cool, dry nights even in summer, don't take well to our warm, humid summer nights in Indiana.
Jim
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Western North American Erythronium species tend to struggle here in my Midwestern garden. Here is a valiant E. multiscapideum hanging on:
(Attachment Link)
and here is another one still with us:
(Attachment Link)
Once upon a time, there were more of them in these spots. I think that West Coast plants of all kinds, evolved with cool, dry nights even in summer, don't take well to our warm, humid summer nights in Indiana.
Jim
Jim,
Our California native Erythroniums, such as E. multiscapoideum and tuolumnense, grow where the soil gets bone dry during the summer. In the garden, I have been able to get away with summer irrigation as long as the soil drains extremely well. Having said that, they are happiest when dry in the summer - that is why I'm in the process of moving mine to a new area.
I do not see how heat can be an issue for them as 38c or more during the summer is common. However heat and moisture when dormant = death to the bulb.
When growing our native Erythroniums in pots I use a soil mix of 2 parts 1/4" lava rock, 1 part sharp sand, and 1 part leaf mold. When they go dormant in the late spring they go under the shade under a big oak tree and no water. For me it is important to wait well into the fall and cool weather before watering if the rains do no arrive. They grow very well for me this way until I can get them in the ground.
I hope that maybe this is of so help.
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Jim,
I got thinking about your Erythroniums. ::)
Your winters are very cold compared to our part of California. The California Erythroniums start active root growth in mid-winter and it seems that they will be unhappy if their roots remain frozen, and likely damaged by the extreme cold. Maybe a more likely cause for their poor performance. The ground never freezes deeply here, so the roots are never frozen.
Something to think about. :)
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Jim,
I got thinking about your Erythroniums. ::)
Your winters are very cold compared to our part of California. The California Erythroniums start active root growth in mid-winter and it seems that they will be unhappy if their roots remain frozen, and likely damaged by the extreme cold. Maybe a more likely cause for their poor performance. The ground never freezes deeply here, so the roots are never frozen.
Something to think about. :)
Yes, a very good point. Plus our summer rains. I wonder if trying to grow these in the ground around here is a poor strategy? Would pots work better -- winter and summer in the greenhouse?
Jim
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Yes, a very good point. Plus our summer rains. I wonder if trying to grow these in the ground around here is a poor strategy? Would pots work better -- winter and summer in the greenhouse?
Jim
It seems like it is worth a try. If you do give this a try, let me know how it all works out.
I have good luck growing Erythroniums in containers. Ian Young's "fish boxes" seem the best but I have also had good luck with 01 Gallon nursery containers, E. toulumnense likes the deeper containers. With smaller containers I've gotten into trouble. Remember to keep the pots out of the sun during the summer - disaster!
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The western erythronium you have a chance of succeeding with is E. revolutum
as it grows on streambanks.
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Thanks Diana and Robert. As soon as the two surviving multiscapideum plants go dormant, I'll put them into pots. Then I'll go shopping for E. revolutum. I used to have that species in my woodland garden as well. but it is not there anymore.
Jim
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I think the revolutum is going to be a science experiment. It's native to the Pacific NW coast, which has mild winters with almost no freezing temps. And very cool, dry summers. Extremely different from Indiana.
To get the cool, dry summers, try planting them under a big deciduous tree. They will get some sun while they are growing in Spring, and then deep shade in Summer. Also, the tree will keep the soil fairly dry in Summer. Do not irrigate. Mulch may be helpful in cooling the soil.
To minimize the effects of Winter cold, mulch heavily. This will slow the rate of freezing and thawing. It won't change the temperature that the soil ultimately reaches. But the rate is important to survival. This is why you can't leave certain potted plants outdoors in Winter. You will have to figure out if the mulch needs to be removed in Spring. If it harbors snails or other pests, or if the emerging plants can't break through it, you will need to remove it.
If you try them in pots, I would recommend several bulbs in a large pot, at least two-gallon or larger. As Robert said, keep the soil cool while they are growing. Plunge the pots into the soil or into a sand bed in a cool place, not in a hot greenhouse. They like a lot of sun and cool temps while they are actively growing. When they go dormant, I would store them in a cool place, like a basement or crawl space under the house. Protect from mice.
I like to grow companion plants in the container with bulbs that are sensitive to excess moisture. Small plants like violas are ideal. Small grasses are OK too. When the bulbs are ready to go dormant, stop watering and let the companion plants use up the moisture in the potting mix. The companion plants will eventually die due to drought stress, and the bulbs will be left in a dry mix for the Summer. If you don't do this, you might be amazed at how wet the soil is for a long time after the bulbs go dormant. I completely agree with Robert that the combination of moisture and high temps is deadly for these bulbs. This is something that I discovered a long time ago about species lilies. The bulbs must be kept cool. The companion plants also shade the soil while they are in active growth.
If you try to grow these plants too fast, you may lose them to bulb rot. If you grow them too slow, they may never bloom. In my climate, they take about four years to bloom from seed. It will probably take longer there.
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Erythronium elegans in flower here.
It seems to like a sunny south-facing spot that dries out a bit in high summer -which in Scotland is usually two days in late July ;)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5589/14072676932_ba5af4570c_o_d.jpg)
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It knows where I am. There is a big bar across the tulip picture which says Not available in your area.
I feel left out.
Same here in the US. Unfortunately Gardeners World has not expanded its reach to the US. BBC America seems to have a schedule that is a bit heavy with "Dr. Who".
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You can find older episodes on YouTube, but that's about it. I know the feeling, totally left out :/ We don't have a gardening show that even comes close here in the states.
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To get the cool, dry summers, try planting them under a big deciduous tree. They will get some sun while they are growing in Spring, and then deep shade in Summer. Also, the tree will keep the soil fairly dry in Summer. Do not irrigate. Mulch may be helpful in cooling the soil.
Thank you for the advise for growing E.revolutum. I think you gave good advise also for Finland, and mulching will help that the ground won't freeze so deep, and especially the advise about keeping the bulbs dry in the summer. I have had good germination of the seeds, but then have lost them when I have kept them potted, not enough dry, I'm sure now.
Right now my last year's seedlings are planted outside and I think they are doing better than in pots.
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[attachimg=1]
Ian reviews Chris Clennett's Erythronium monograph in this week's Bulb Log :
http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2014Jun181403082722BULB_LOG_2514.pdf (http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2014Jun181403082722BULB_LOG_2514.pdf)
[attachimg=2]
Erythronium montanum- which is in cultivation.
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We've just been sent this link (http://www.portlandhikers.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19427)by our friends Jan and Dave Dobak to photos which show more Erythronium montanum than we could ever imagine. Absolutely superb.
The BD is lying down with oxygen to revive him. There's only so much excitement he can take. ;)
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:o Wowzers!!
I like the name 'avalanche lily' :)
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Hybrids masquerading as Species
I have been labouring under the illusion that E revolutum and E hendersonii were both clumping up nicely in my garden. Then last Saturday, I received a copy of Chris Clennett’s book ‘The Genus Erythronium’ and read to my horror on page 144 that ‘several species of Erythronium will not increase by vegetative means’ including E hendersonii and E revolutum.
I decided to check with Applegate (1935) and he states under E Hendersonii ‘rarely multiplying by sessile offsets’.
Admittedly, I had been a little concerned that my ‘hendersonii’ were rather too pale, so now I know why. Of course these were purchased from reputable nurseries, but how can a complete amateur tell if he is purchasing the species or a hybrid.
What to do now? Where do I get the species? Clearly I need to put greater emphasis on raising from seed.
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Mark, it is my experience that much of what masquerades under E. hendersonii in cultivation is of hybrid origin, especially if it increases.
I have raised hundreds of this species from seed and never had a form that increased - I did see a clump in the wild but it was still in bud so I could not ascertain if it was a pure species - hybrids also happen in the wild.
Due to the fact that they do increase the hybrids make better garden pants.
I do have forms of E revolution, that increase at a steady if not fast pace increasing to a clump of five in around the same number of years.
Seed of wild origin is the best way to get true species garden seed can and does produce hybrids.
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I'm pretty sure my E. revolutum is correctly named, and it slowly forms a clump of bulbs in garden conditions.
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Welcome to the forum, Mark .
I can tell that you are a bit disappointed oi find that you may be growing hybrids rather than species - but you know, when it comes to making good garden plants those hybrids are real gems. Spare a thought for how disappointed you would be with one flower sitting on its lonesome, year after year!! ::) ;)
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A few years ago I bred a few erythroniums.Could somebody tell me which is the correct Ery. revolutum, or are both seedlings?
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Paul, from what I can see in your pictures seedling one looks to be true to E. revolutum - seedling two is definitely a hybrid you can tell this from the shape of the filaments and the nice dark zonal markings.
Nice work.
Ian
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Thanks for the info Ian, I'm going to resurrect that breeding programme.