Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: annew on February 23, 2014, 01:02:12 PM
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Thought it might be good to have a thread for these puzzles.
Any ideas what this double is? I got it as Cordelia, but the inners have too much green, both inside and out. It's about 20cm high, applanate vernation. Tiny green tips on the outers.
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I can tell you its well marked! ;D
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Its very like 'Baylham'
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It is indeed! Hope so -it's nice. I see I had it from you in 2012 :-* but I chipped it then, so these must have come under an assumed name. I'll compare to yours when they flower.
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If Mark passed it onto you at Loughborough 2012 that is where I gave him Baylham
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The plot thickens!
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That's one of the most striking double snowdrops I've seen Mark. The bug is really starting to bite again. William Dyson (from Great Comp) at Goodnestone today had some nice things, including 'Modern Art' which I'd heard about but not seen before. He, and we, are hoping that we might generate more interest down in Kent in the next few years - not so many gardens with really extensive collections of snowdrops (apart from John and Carolyn Millen who have a wonderful collection, intriguing to look at closely), but there are many gardens with good plantings of these and other woodland plants.
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If Mark passed it onto you at Loughborough 2012 that is where I gave him Baylham
I didn't remember that. Thanks again
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I still have a few lost label clumps to identify. Any ideas on this G. elwesii?
26th February: Now thought to be G. elwesii 'Three Leaves'
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And is this G. elwesii 'Comet'? The label says so but....
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Another unknown clump.
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And finally, quite a small plant this...
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Don't know first, nice though!
Comet should have a single large mark.
Don't know 3rd.
Last looks similar to what I grew as G. St Anne's.
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Don't know first, nice though!
Comet should have a single large mark.
Don't know 3rd.
Last looks similar to what I grew as G. St Anne's.
Could the first one be G. 'Comet'?
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No mark is wrong, see second image here for Comet.
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=11363.msg295617#msg295617 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=11363.msg295617#msg295617)
I've got plenty of Comet if you want it? Would happily swap it for the first, what ever it is... ;)
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The mark is wrong for St Anne's
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And finally, quite a small plant this...
It looks similar to 'Armine' but I'm not sure what the leaves should look like
http://snowdropinfo.com/galanthus%20armine.html (http://snowdropinfo.com/galanthus%20armine.html)
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Big Thing No Label - too tall to be a Might Atom group. I'll measure the height tomorrow
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I got this as G. rizehensis.
But I am not sure - the leaves look supervolute to me ???
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I got this as G. rizehensis. But I am not sure - the leaves look supervolute to me ???
Definitely not rizehensis but what ever it is its a lovely snowdrop
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It looks similar to 'Armine' but I'm not sure what the leaves should look like
http://snowdropinfo.com/galanthus%20armine.html (http://snowdropinfo.com/galanthus%20armine.html)
The book says 'Armine' is "Tall, elegant-looking plant"; this one is small and delicate.
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Big Thing No Label - too tall to be a Might Atom group. I'll measure the height tomorrow
Could be Bertram Anderson.
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Big Thing No Label - too tall to be a Might Atom group. I'll measure the height tomorrow
Could be Bertram Anderson.
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I never thought about Bertram Anderson.
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Thinking about it it could be Bill Bishop
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My Bill Bishop is a very short plant, flowers only just off the ground.
Bertram Anderson is quite tall.
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Can anyone recognise this lost name 'drop from Tom Mitchell:
[attachimg=1]
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I still have a few lost label clumps to identify. Any ideas on this G. elwesii?
I dug this clump up to split it and found a label fragment which reads Galanthus elwesii 'Three Leaves', so I guess that's another one identified.
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I don't recognise Tom Mitchell's 'drop but it has supervolute leaves that appear to be glaucous so it must be an elwesii. And it is what is now referred to as an 'inverse poc.' although I'm not sure if that term had been coined when 'The Book' was written. There are so few of those that I cannot think of any at all.
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... found a label fragment which reads Galanthus elwesii 'Three Leaves', so I guess that's another one identified.
Is 'Three Leaves' actually a name or merely a description? I doubt that something so merely descriptive would be an allowed name under current rules.
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Probably a description. See "Snowdrops" page 167: "Some clones of G. elwesii regularly produce three leaves in each shoot. One such was named 'Three Leaves', and should have only a single inner segment mark..." I probably got it from John Morley but wouldn't swear to it.
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It's not that hard to find elwesiis with three leaves and a bit silly to try to name one entirely on that basis.
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Can anyone recognise this lost name 'drop from Tom Mitchell:
You mean its your plant Maggi? I don't know it either
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Can anyone put a name to this snowdrop? It came north with us from an unnamed clump.
As far as I can ascertain, only straight species were planted.
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Chris, we can only see a glimpse of the leaves which are the most useful means of telling the species apart. But I can see nothing to suggest that it is not the common snowdrop, Galanthus nivalis.
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You mean its your plant Maggi? I don't know it either
No, it's Tom's drop - he's been looking for the name for it, he thinks it is a named variety as far as I know.
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Chris, we can only see a glimpse of the leaves which are the most useful means of telling the species apart. But I can see nothing to suggest that it is not the common snowdrop, Galanthus nivalis.
Thanks Alan.
I've always treated them as a spectacle and only recently potted some up for closer adulation.
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One from me for identification - short and very fat. 10cm high and going by the leaves its a plicatus hybrid
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Don't know but it's nice! :D
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Don't know but it's nice! :D
It is! Going through all my elwesii and plicatus photos I cant find a matching photo.
As these are growing in a pot in the green house they must be new to me. I didn't buy much in 2013 but did buy at the gala and East Anglia bulb sale in 2012. At the gala I photograph all new purchases on the day or day after. These must have failed to flower in 2013 which makes me think I got them at the 2012 bulb sale as dry bulbs. The packets on sale usually contain bulbs of various sizes but why did I write a label that simply says "elwesii 5"? I wouldn't buy ordinary G. elwesii.
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One from me for identification - short and very fat. 10cm high and going by the leaves its a plicatus hybrid
Dodo Norton,without a shadow of doubt,Mark
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Thanks very much. Looking at my photos of Dodo Norton I see some will have to be relabelled Might Atom group but way back in 2008 I have a photo of a very similar plant
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Can anyone recognise this lost name 'drop from Tom Mitchell:
(Attachment Link)
I'd normally be very reluctant to get into identifying snowdrops from photos - especially when I've never seen the plant in question but Tom's plant could be 'Trumpolute'.
North Green listed it in 2011 as 'the first significant hybrid between G.plicatus 'Trym' and G.elwesii to have convolute leaves and flowers reminding us of both G. 'Trumps' and G.plicatus 'Trym'. Perhaps someone who could afford to bid for it in 2011 can confirm.
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Trumpolute is flared like a pagoda.
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Yes Brian I've just seen the picture on the back of their catalogue. There must be another convolute 'Trym' type out there.
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Here's 'Trumpolute' on the (highly reliable) Judy's Snowdrops website http://www.judyssnowdrops.co.uk/Plant_Profiles/Hybrids_Single/trumpolute/trumpolute.htm (http://www.judyssnowdrops.co.uk/Plant_Profiles/Hybrids_Single/trumpolute/trumpolute.htm)
No pagoda-like behaviour that I can see. Most pagoda-type snowdrops only exhibit the behaviour as the flower matures. So 'Trumpolute' could easily be correct. Hopefully Tom will have records to indicate if he ever bought that one. Well done Gordon; right or wrong it's an excellent suggestion.
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I would have said that the third picture is what I would say was shaped like a pagoda roof Alan. Perhaps you misunderstood me.
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Presumably yes, Brian; I don't have the catalogue to refer to. I generally take pagoda-type snowdrops to indicate that the ends of the outer petals are raised to the point that they are near vertical or even pointing upwards. 'Trumpolute' is certainly that way inclined but we only have a single picture from Tom Udell to go on.
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No 'Trumpolute' doesn't seem to be as extreme as 'Fly Away Peter' but it readily flares and that is a feature of the flower, well mine anyway.
The North Green Catalogue description says
The first significant hybrid between G.plicatus 'Trym' and G. elwesii to have convolute leaves and flowers reminding us of both G.'Trumps' and G.plicatus 'Trym'. The distinctly flattish outer segments have a bold V-shaped mark towards the apex and a paler oval-shaped mark towards the base but this mark can vary until the plant is established. An historic breakthrough which occurred in the garden at North Green in 2001
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Thank you for the kind comments Alan but I have to agree with Brian that the picture on Judy's snowdrops does look like a different plant unless it's an atypical flower possibly after twin-scaling.
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Perhaps someone who could afford to bid for it in 2011 can confirm.
By the way mine was a very kind gift from a fellow forumist ;)
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:) You're a lucky man, Brian. Apologies if my original comment sounded a little churlish
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The snowdrop in Tom's picture:
- Is an inverse poc. type.
- Does have glaucous convolute leaves.
- Does have some sort of paler mark towards the base of the inner petals as per the North Green description.
- Is the only suspect we have thought of.
But
- Does not have reflexed outer petals.
- The flower does not resemble other illustrations of 'Trumpolute' that closely.
So lets agree that it might be an immature form of 'Trumpolute' for lack of any better ideas.
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Tom hasn't ever bought most of the plants suggested, Trym Baby etc - but he does remember getting one of Brian's suggestions, 'Janet' from Richard and Valerie at Woodchippings - he's going to send them the photo.
Thanks, Brian .
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'Janet' at Woodchippings
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I got G. 'John Gray' in 2002 but it was definitely not that as it has a single apical mark on the inner segments. I got it again from a different source in 2009 but I am sure it is still not the true plant which is meant to be one of the earliest with an almost full basal mark joining the apical mark on the inners. It is at its best now, so cannot be called early. It is actually a very good plant that holds its scapes well (unlike John Gray I believe) about 7" tall and one I would not be without. Can anyone identify it?
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Definitely not John Gray but its a fabulous snowdrop
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I agree Mark but what is it?
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I don't think I've seen your snowdrop before
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What type of leaves do they have? They look flat/applanate
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Yes they are flat and applanate. I have highlighted the shadows to show this better.
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Tom hasn't ever bought most of the plants suggested, Trym Baby etc -
You must be reading some other forum, Maggi. There has only been one suggestion made here and it wasn't that one.
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Chatting offline, Alan.
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I've got 'Janet' my Janet's leaves don't look the same as Tom's .
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Chatting offline, Alan.
Because? I would be interested to know what supervolute and inverse poc. snowdrops are out there now. The only one I knew of hitherto was 'Cider with Rosie' which is a lovely snowdrop but a woronowii so the wrong leaf colour (not to mention that it also has reflexed petals). I don't go in for catalogues so I had never heard of 'Trumpotute' until Gordon suggested it. Are people generally too shy to make their suggested identifications in public?
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I've got 'Janet' my Janet's leaves don't look the same as Tom's .
It probably isn't then, they were the only two that sprang to mind - well not exactly sprang ;) back to the drawing board.
I generally don't like to make stabs in the dark at identification from photos, especially if I don't know the snowdrop, but I did know there was no way it was 'Trumpolute'...and we were chatting offline because we do?
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I have long advocated that one should be very wary of identification by 'expert', as sometimes happens here. The best that can be achieved is a prompt towards which of those 'lost-label' snowdrops it is amongst those that you know you bought but can no longer identify. Even then you may never be sure that the original has not died to be replaced by a similar seedling. Identification from a single photograph can often be difficult, particularly in instances where people take only the flower and omit the leaves or the spathe and pedicel.
I'm not for one moment suggesting one should not chat offline; it's an excellent facility provided by the Forum. But cut me some slack if I get confused when people make public reference to conversations they had in private.
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Are the first two pictures warei?
The next two are from plants I selected from wild - are these "nearly albas" (inside of petals is slightly greenish) rare?
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The original Scharlockii with it's huge split spathe and green-tipped outers was named in 1868 so reaches its 150th anniversary in four years time. I suspect if it was discovered only today it would sell for hundreds of pounds on eBay. It comes true from seed and has spawned a lot of varients in its 150 years. Warei (found 1869) was probably a Scharlockii seedling and lacks the split in the spathe, which remains huge. But such a long time has passed since that it's well-nigh impossible to say if something is a clone of the original Warei so on that basis if it looks like Warei, it is Warei.
I would say that near-albas as good as those are rare if they perform consistently. Maybe not enormously rare though.
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Alan, thanks for your clarification.
My warei has a split spathe and an extraordinary long (nearly 5 cm) pedicel!
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And this one? Found in the Amsterdam Forrest by some snowdropenthusiastic sisters, who have become severly infected with galanthusvirus ;D
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And this one? Found in the Amsterdam Forrest by some snowdropenthusiastic sisters, who have become severly infected with galanthusvirus ;D
Gerard,
I hope you look after that for them? ;D ;D ;D It's another beauty :o :o :o
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They found a clump of four Steve :o And i thought i was a lucky bird ;D
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They found a clump of four Steve :o And i thought i was a lucky bird ;D
;D ;D ;D
and i thought the best snowdrops came from The Crimea ;) ;) ;)
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My warei has a split spathe and an extraordinary long (nearly 5 cm) pedicel!
I could not really see on the photograph. If the spathe is split and huge then it is Scharlockii. The pedicel is also very long in this type.
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Thanks, Alan - that was also my first suggestion. But I am a newby to the world of snodrops!
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Hi could anyone identify this snowdrop for me please, I know it is past it's best, but I am hopefull someone will know what it is. Myself I think it could be Ikariae.
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Bit difficult without a picture, John, but woronowii and ikariae are often confused. Woronowii are much more readily available so statistically it is likely to be that one.
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There is a picture there Alan, can't you see it?
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Hi could anyone identify this snowdrop for me please, I know it is past it's best, but I am hopefull someone will know what it is. Myself I think it could be Ikariae.
They are G. elwesii but the leaves are very strange
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In what way Mark?
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There is a picture there Alan, can't you see it?
Now I can. But it looks very odd; was it taken with a flash? I would try again and get some close-ups. The leaves look too glaucous (or mostly do) to be anything other than elwesii. Although there might be some gracilis in the mix.
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elwesii with a touch of gracilis they would say.
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Oh right I'll have another go. I took the pic with my iPhone.
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Hi guys are you saying it could be a hybrid between elwesii & gracilis? Here are some better photos I hope.(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/13/4ehydy3e.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/13/aberynev.jpg)
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Still very difficult to see much from those photos, John (they are more like thumbnail images). Many of the leaves seem to have strange discoloured blotches and I cannot tell what that is.
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Ok Alan I'll try again
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Here are the photos again(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/13/a6yvypeg.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/13/a4ybyzur.jpg)
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Here are the photos again, I've tried not to get too close in case they come out blurred
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Maybe the plants were in dappled sunlight and that gives them a blotchy appearance. But the impression from the leaves is those the plants are rather worn. Perhaps they were stressed somehow but they don't really look entirely healthy.
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Hi Alan they are near some pine trees as you can see from the pic, would the needles be doing them harm? They do get dappled sunlight, I keep them watered. I can't think what could be up with them.
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There isn't necessarily anything wrong but they don't look in prime condition. Snowdrops and pine trees do not naturally associate but I would not have thought a few pine needles would do any harm. Some of my snowdrops got a bit battered by the strong winds in January and February but should recover next year. I suggest you re-pot yours in fresh compost when they go dormant and take the opportunity to inspect the bulbs, isolating any unhealthy ones.
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Yeah I will thanks for the advice Alan.