Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: annew on February 21, 2014, 09:18:17 AM
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Sorting through my snowdrops yesterday I came to the knotty problem of how to tell the difference between Spindlestone Surprise and Primrose Warburg. Superficially they are identical, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't offering the same snowdrop under two different names. I brought one of each, randomly selected, into the house and sat down with The Book to compare them.
According to Matt and John, the differences are as follows:
Spindlestone Surprise:
leaves without yellowish pallor
spathe more or less equal to the pedicel
mark on inner segments - 'arms' are distinctly narrowed
Primrose Warburg:
yellow-tinged leaves
mark on inner segments - 'arm' ends distinctly rounded
Firstly the leaves - you need to have the two together to see the difference, but PW does have yellower leaves than SS.
Spathe - PW is longer than SS
Flower mark - confirmed, SS has narrowed ends, PW rounded.
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'Primrose Warburg' always has a good yellow mark and ovary in my garden whereas 'Spindlestone Surprise' tends to a more greenish yellow. Your photographs prove this too, Ann.
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It's fantastic the amount of work that went into 'The Book' that you can look-up the minutiae of such differences.
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It may just be localized to my neck of the woods but Spindlestone Surprise tends to flower earlier than Primrose Warburg. Spindlestone Surprise also grows/multiplies a lot faster.
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Thanks for your comments. Yes, we owe a great deal to the authors of The Book.
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My Primrose Warburg are also later to flower
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Which would you choose if you could only have one?
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Primrose bulks quicker for me
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Anne, What a very useful comparison, I have been wondering about the differences. I only had PW until last fall when I got SS and more PW. Now I have a sample of both acquired at the same time in as close as you can get to identical cultural conditions so I hope to make my own comparison. I also don't know what I would do without The Book. This forum is wonderful too. I am starting to be able to identify a lot of snowdrops from a photo even though I have never seen them in the flesh just from reading the Book and the forum (special thanks to Matt and Maggi).
Primrose Warburg has bulked up very quickly for me too.
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Which would you choose if you could only have one?
The one that grows best in your garden conditions, unfortunately the only way to find that out is to have both to start with!
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So it is!!! ;)
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You really need both, they are distinct! And there is not much choice else of yellow good doers.
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Yet.... ;)..
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Funnily enough they were mentioned today in the CGS talks in the vein of "This one does well in my garden yet that one doesn't and a friend says the complete opposite"!
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My Primrose Warburg are also later to flower
This is good information for me, because here the later flowering may (possibly, don't know for sure yet) do better in the long run.
This winter we have little snow and lot of snowdrops are coming up now, but the last four winters there was so much snow that it took a long time for it to melt, and the early snowdrops flowered inside the snow. I don't know if it will affect to their vigour, perhaps established clumps don't mind it.
Anne, thank you for making the comparisons with pictures. :)
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answers on a postcard to Mark's house ....
I be stooped. One of these is Spindlestone Surprise and the other is Primrose Warburg randomly selected from their clumps. I did know which was which then put both in to one hand - doh!
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According to the marks, SS should be on the right. I don't really want to go and look at all my flowers, because I'm pretty sure they will be variable.
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You really need both, they are distinct! And there is not much choice else of yellow good doers.
With so much controversy over these two snowdrops I am at a loss to understand how anyone can state that they are DISTINCT.I have a sizeable clump of each one purposely grown cheek by jowl and there is no discernible difference.Both clumps are vigourus and bulk up equally well.Any differences if any can be put down to natural variation and like many of the recently named varieties it is a nonsense that they should be grown under different names.
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I tend to sympathise, John. A DNA test would be handy - if they are different clones, what then? Odd that some people say that one or the other variety does better for them. It may be horses for courses and you've just been lucky that they both like you!
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A few pics.of
P.Warburg 'Wendy's Gold' and Spindlestone surprise taken today and in situ.
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Is the first one Wendy's Gold? It seems to have much larger mark on the inners, and plicate leaves.
The others have not a hair between them.
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I agree, Anne; the first picture shows neither Primrose Warburg nor Spindlestone Surprise.
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On the other three pictures the plants really look like the same and I could not distinguish them. In my own garden it is easy: 'Primrose Warburg' is of a good yellow whereas 'Spindlestone Surprise' of a greenish yellow.
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Well spotted Anne,it is Wendy's Gold.Sorry about that,I got the postings mixed up when choosing the resized images.
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I have never seen so many Primrose Warburg and Spindlestone Surprise in one place
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I suppose we could call them Primrose Surprise?
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Well spotted Anne,it is Wendy's Gold.Sorry about that,I got the postings mixed up when choosing the resized images.
I've heard people say Wendy's Gold is not a good plant - you pictures disprove that.
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I have never seen so many Primrose Warburg and Spindlestone Surprise in one place
I agree Mark ;)
The yellow world is 8)
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I have never seen so many Primrose Warburg and Spindlestone Surprise in one place
I've heard people say Wendy's Gold is not a good plant - you pictures disprove that.
The clump of Wendy's Gold was only planted 4yrs.ago as divisions from another clump elsewhere in the garden and the clumps of P.W and S.S. had 30 bulbs extracted from each last year to form clumps in other places in the garden.I think my heavy clay soil must suit them although I must add that it has had tons of humus added over the 48 yrs.that I have been here.
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Amazing :o
the leaves on Wendy's Gold here always look a little sick, I'm also on heavy clay and have always struggled with yellows & now only grow in lattice pots.
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This year has been the best for snowdrops in the garden - with the exception of 'Wendy's Gold'.
So far I only have 2 sickly leaves where last year there was a clump :(
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My best clump (by that I mean more than a few bulbs :-\) of Wendy's gold is growing in a very dark spot with no direct sunlight and the leaves look ok but nothing like in that big clump image, most plicatus here only do well in the open well drained areas.
I've got some bulbs that need moving so might try another place and dig plenty of humus in although some that look pretty sick are in old veg beds that were dug for decades and others in well worked/mulched herbaceous borders.
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My Wendy's Gold don't look sick
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That is really nice combination of 'Wendy's Gold' and crocus. :)
How do you think 'Bill Clark' compares to 'Wendy's Gold' in vigour?
Or 'Ray Cobb'?
I have now all of them peaking from the frozen ground, also 'Wendy's Gold', and all were planted last summer.
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Are they in quite a shaded position Mark?
Looking at mine that seems to make a big difference, at the top of the herbaceous border which is light in winter the leaves look quite yellow and a little twisted (how they normally look here) but in the very dark spot that gets no direct sunlight at all they're healthy looking. Most other drops I put in the same spot have had to come out, very odd.
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Reviving this old thread, rather than starting a new one on the same subject...
Did anyone else notice that Avon Bulbs are lumping PW and SS together in their catalogue (https://www.avonbulbs.co.uk/spring-planted-bulbs-and-snowdrops/galanthus-snowdrops/galanthus-spindlestone-surprise):
Very very close to Primrose Warburg in appearance and we have decided to only offer them under the one name.
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They did that last year too.
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At the Norfolk Plant Heritage event today Richard Hobbs pointed out that the difference between them lies in the shape of the receptacle.
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It's all well and good for folk to have their own views on these things, but selling them as a mixed lot greatly complicates the issue for folk who want to maintain a distinction between these plants and is, dare I say it, slightly irresponsible.
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At the Norfolk Plant Heritage event today Richard Hobbs pointed out that the difference between them lies in the shape of the receptacle.
SS has a rounded top and PW is tapered towards the pedicel?
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SS has a rounded top and PW is tapered towards the pedicel?
The length of the receptacle is the defining feature being longer in SS in proportion to the width. In Snowdrops (which I have just had to look up) the ratio of length to width is said to be PW 7:5 and SS 3:2 which I hope means that SS seems thinner and longer when compared together, however I am on my last legs having had a long day and I might be wrong ::) Hopefully someone took notes.
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It's all well and good for folk to have their own views on these things, but selling them as a mixed lot greatly complicates the issue for folk who want to maintain a distinction between these plants and is, dare I say it, slightly irresponsible.
I agree Matt. Even for two clones that are so similar. Surely it's better to simply stop selling one of them?
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I think it is bad that they are clumped together, because even if they look similar, if they behave differently it might make a big difference when I am trying to grow them here where the conditions may not be ideal for possibly more tender snowdrops (colder winters and more snow, spring comes later). I planted last summer 'Spindlestone Surprise', but don't have 'Primorose Warburg' to compare to it, so I can't say anything myself about them yet.
It may just be localized to my neck of the woods but Spindlestone Surprise tends to flower earlier than Primrose Warburg. Spindlestone Surprise also grows/multiplies a lot faster.
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Precisely my concern, Leena. With people often finding they can grow one but not the other, it really doesn't help if they don't know which they're receiving.
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The length of the receptacle is the defining feature being longer in SS in proportion to the width. In Snowdrops (which I have just had to look up) the ratio of length to width is said to be PW 7:5 and SS 3:2 which I hope means that SS seems thinner and longer when compared together, however I am on my last legs having had a long day and I might be wrong ::) Hopefully someone took notes.
Thanks, Brian. Glad to see that it was such a good day yesterday - nothing but good reports on social media.
I don't grow both plants, only Primrose Warburg, so I can't make a direct comparison. However, looking at photographs on t'interweb there are differences in the receptacle. Whilst PW might have a receptacle that is broader in relation to its length at its widest point, the overall shape is slightly tapering, so it actually appears to be more slender. Anne's photo that started this thread shows this well, with SS appearing to have a 'fatter' receptacle because it is broader along its length (resulting in the rounded top I referred to).
Overall, there are many characteristics that justify maintaining a distinction between these plants.
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Precisely my concern, Leena. With people often finding they can grow one but not the other, it really doesn't help if they don't know which they're receiving.
I agree with Matt, these are after all cultivars so ease of and differing tolerance in cultivation must be a factor. For instance I would find it hard to separate Narcissus 'Craigton Clumper' on purely physical characteristics - it is because of the ease in which it bulks up and flowers so readily that I named it.
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I'm sure there are lots of similar pairs (or more) of snowdrops which are visually very similar, but if we start lumping them all together as 'similar' it makes naming them a it of a farce. Best to sell them just as yellow snowdrops mixed rather than one or the other. If they are indeed different clones you have only a 50% chance of getting the correct variety!
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One grows for me the other doesn't , there fore in my mind they are different
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One grows for me the other doesn't , there fore in my mind they are different
An important difference as others have noted.
If there are different cultivation requirements, then more information (or knowledge) is needed on this so that people know where to place them or whether perhaps their soil is not as appropriate for one rather than the other. This, in addition to apparent physical differences in the ovaries (I only have Primrose myself), would suggest they should not be lumped and sold as undifferentiated bulbs.
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Sounds like something you 'drop fiends should be raising with Avon
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Sounds like something you 'drop fiends should be raising with Avon
In the absence of any volunteers, that will be me then...
Will wait for safe delivery of my order first, before I cause a ruckus ;)
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Thanks, Brian. Glad to see that it was such a good day yesterday - nothing but good reports on social media.
That's good, we are still in recovery, but today had the Norfolk PH Chair and Ann Borrill round the garden to look at 'drops. Ann says they are obviously different as Spindlestone is much taller in her garden! I also checked with botanist Richard Hobbs on Sunday at Blacksmiths and he said that I had remembered correctly and cutting through the receptacle will also show the difference. I suppose the problem, as with all bulbs, is that the provenance is the most important thing and perhaps someone has (accidentally no doubt) passed on a SS as PB which has snowballed and caused the confusion.
Once 'The Norfolk Eye' has prepared the photos for the Norfolk PH website I expect he will post a link. It was a lovely day and we met old friends and new, although being behind a stall meant that I had a totally different experience to normal. I realise who Wheelieneelie is although we didn't actually meet, there were a lot of forumists and lurkers there at least three National Collection Holders (2 snowdrops and one cyclamen) so I am glad that the reports were good.
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Spent a couple of hours pulling apart some flowers of PW and SS for photographs. Not sure I can see a difference! The two PWs are from different sources. Of course I may have received all three incorrectly named! We need an instant DNA analysis app. ::) Don't know if there's a way to attach the montage as a larger file so you an study it as a larger picture? In all photos the top two lines are Primrose Warburg and the bottom line is Spindlestone Surprise. Take no notice of size - this depends on the size/maturity of the bulb.
Will check leaves later, it's blowing a hoolie a present and I can't lift the frame lights or take photos outside.
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That's an interesting dissection, Anne. Are you going to open a couple of the ovaries now - to see what the difference might be therein as per " cutting through the receptacle will also show the difference " ...... ??
Will the cut need to be horizontal or vertical? Both, I suppose!
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Pas assez expert pour voir une différence si ce n'est les ovaires de SS qui sont vers le haut (peut-être pour la photo ?)
Ce que je peux dire en tous cas c'est que cette répétition de dissection est magnifique à regarder ;)
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Pas assez expert pour voir une différence si ce n'est les ovaires de SS qui sont vers le haut (peut-être pour la photo ?)
Ce que je peux dire en tous cas c'est que cette répétition de dissection est magnifique à regarder ;)
Not expert enough to see a difference except the SS ovaries that are up (perhaps for the photo?)
What I can say in any case is that this dissection repetition is stunning to look at.
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Maggi thank you, it seems that the translator mixture a little words
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Well done, Anne. You have some patience!
For each of these, PW1, PW2, SS - did you start with a single bulb of each and bulk them up vegetatively? There is an interesting range of variation in the inner markings within each selection. PW2 appears to be most consistent within itself. However, if these were not labelled, I'd be hard pressed to separate them out as you have them arranged here.
The spathe length appears to be correct for SS and PW2, but some of the spathes on PW1 could be intermediate?
There is a difference in the bearing of the flower on the scape in SS, as Fred suggests.
To my eye, PW1 appears as though it might be closer to SS than PW2 (but still a lot of internal variation)?
EDIT: looking at the inner markings again, those of PW1 and PW2 appear to conform with the description in The Book (apical 1/3) as does SS (apical 1/4). In your photo the inner markings are definitely slightly smaller for SS. But they're all a bit of a mixture in terms of the rounded vs. pointed ends.
They do not seem to be any different in flowering time with you Anne? I'm not sure if other people's statements that PW is a couple of weeks later than SS are based on observation of the two plants growing side-by-side in the same conditions as you have there.
Similarly, under your conditions, is their any difference in height?
Of course, we cannot see crucial differences in their relative tolerance of different growing conditions. I'm not sure that anyone has pinned down the factors that lead to their success with one plant but not the other (and clearly there is an overlap in their tolerance as some folk succeed with both).
Even if they are physically inseparable, their provenance is important as a named clone can only arise and be named once.
All of this could be hugely complicated if mis-named plants have been muddled and passed around for some time.
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I suppose the problem, as with all bulbs, is that the provenance is the most important thing and perhaps someone has (accidentally no doubt) passed on a SS as PB which has snowballed and caused the confusion.
Depending on how long ago and how widely they've been spread around, it could be an almost impossible task to separate out true stocks of each.
If Avon can discern no difference, they've perhaps been victims of such misnaming.
North Green state that they are "quite distinct when they are grown near to each other", so their plants might serve as a useful reference collection for others to separate out any imposters? As much as I enjoy these ID puzzles, this is NOT a task I'm volunteering myself for! ;D
†Other suppliers are available.
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Well done, Anne. You have some patience!
For each of these, PW1, PW2, SS - did you start with a single bulb of each and bulk them up vegetatively? There is an interesting range of variation in the inner markings within each selection. PW2 appears to be most consistent within itself. However, if these were not labelled, I'd be hard pressed to separate them out as you have them arranged here.
The spathe length appears to be correct for SS and PW2, but some of the spathes on PW1 could be intermediate?
There is a difference in the bearing of the flower on the scape in SS, as Fred suggests.
To my eye, PW1 appears as though it might be closer to SS than PW2 (but still a lot of internal variation)?
EDIT: looking at the inner markings again, those of PW1 and PW2 appear to conform with the description in The Book (apical 1/3) as does SS (apical 1/4). In your photo the inner markings are definitely slightly smaller for SS. But they're all a bit of a mixture in terms of the rounded vs. pointed ends.
They do not seem to be any different in flowering time with you Anne? I'm not sure if other people's statements that PW is a couple of weeks later than SS are based on observation of the two plants growing side-by-side in the same conditions as you have there.
Similarly, under your conditions, is their any difference in height?
Of course, we cannot see crucial differences in their relative tolerance of different growing conditions. I'm not sure that anyone has pinned down the factors that lead to their success with one plant but not the other (and clearly there is an overlap in their tolerance as some folk succeed with both).
Even if they are physically inseparable, their provenance is important as a named clone can only arise and be named once.
All of this could be hugely complicated if mis-named plants have been muddled and passed around for some time.
PW1 came as a single bulb from Ireland. PW2 came as 2 bulbs from a forum friend. SS came as a single bulb. They have all been chipped.
The different bearing of the SS ovaries is almost certainly due to the fact that the SS flowers were newly opened, not yet hanging properly, which suggests my SS are slightly later flowering than the PWs. This may be however due to the fact that the first lot of flowers I picked got mixed up and I had to start again, having already picked the most mature flowers!
I don't think there is any difference in height, this being largely dependant again on the maturity of the bulb, but I'll compare the open grown ones later.
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That's an interesting dissection, Anne. Are you going to open a couple of the ovaries now - to see what the difference might be therein as per " cutting through the receptacle will also show the difference " ...... ??
Will the cut need to be horizontal or vertical? Both, I suppose!
Crumbs, another job!
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Crumbs, another job!
oh, errrr..... for a minion, perhaps? ;)
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They do not seem to be any different in flowering time with you Anne? I'm not sure if other people's statements that PW is a couple of weeks later than SS are based on observation of the two plants growing side-by-side in the same conditions as you have there.
I have 'Primrose Warburg' and 'Spindlestone Surprise' very near each other in similar conditions, and SS blooms earlier. It is in bloom now. Avon is the source for both. I don't know about height. I will have to measure when they are both out. I have another patch of PW from a non-Avon source, but it is in much more shade and is also not in bloom yet. Here are current photos of SS.
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I wonder if we are missing the point here? It's not whether Spindlestone Surprise and Primrose Warburg are different now but whether they can be kept different in future. They both look extremely similar so it is very easy to get one confused with the other and once that happens you start getting Spindlestone Surprise distributed as Primrose Warburg and vice versa. A similar situation has already arisen with some of the Greatorex doubles. These look quite similar and, even if you can tell them apart, there is no universal agreement about which one is named which, presumably because people have made mistakes in the past. Other cultivars can exist in different forms under the same name; Hagen said he had multiple forms of one snowdrop, was it Barnes?
I imagine Avon Bulbs have effectively admitted defeat with respect to not getting the two snowdrops confused and that is why they now list them together as if they were a single entity.
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I remember seeing an RHS trial of a purple-leaved berberis. I don't remember its name. A request had gone out for nurseries to send in what they were selling as Berberis "X", and it was surprising how they varied. A decision was made as to which were true to their name.
Could this be done with mixed-up snowdrops? I would hope that the several National Collections would have the correct plants.
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Other cultivars can exist in different forms under the same name; Hagen said he had multiple forms of one snowdrop, was it Barnes?
By definition there cannot be more than one form of a cultivar. They are either the original cultivar or they are something else, in which case they should not offered under an incorrect cultivar name - this way leads to more confusion such as we have with PW/SS. Plants from a seed strain can share a grex/group name, (i.e. Hiemalis Group) which is different to, but may give rise to a single clone being selected for naming as a cultivar (i.e. Hiemalis Group 'Barnes').
I wonder if we are missing the point here? It's not whether Spindlestone Surprise and Primrose Warburg are different now but whether they can be kept different in future. They both look extremely similar so it is very easy to get one confused with the other...
The point is to pin down the definitive characteristics of each cultivar so they can be kept distinct in the future. The Book sets out some characteristics, but there appear to be others which may also be helpful.
I imagine Avon Bulbs have effectively admitted defeat with respect to not getting the two snowdrops confused and that is why they now list them together as if they were a single entity.
Are they selling them under the correct name? Why SS and not PW? The photograph on their website (which may not be of their own plants) shows characteristics that fit with PW (spathe longer than pedicle) and SS (an ovary with a 2:3 ratio). If they're only going to offer one, why mix two stocks that they've previously had under two names? Offer one or the other, whichever is believed to be correct, but don't mix them up further and potentially exacerbate the existing problem.
Through the collective knowledge and effort of Forumists here we may be able to advance our understanding of the distinctiveness of these cultivars that will help to clear up the mess we seem to be in. We're lucky to have some resources that may help in this (i.e. a photograph of the original clump of PW in The Book, North Green appear to hold plants of good provenance etc.) The longer this is left the more difficult it will be.
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I have 'Primrose Warburg' and 'Spindlestone Surprise' very near each other in similar conditions, and SS blooms earlier. It is in bloom now. Interestingly Avon is the source for both. I don't know about height. I will have to measure when they are both out. I have another patch of PW from a non-Avon source, but it is in much more shade and is also not in bloom yet. Here are current photos of SS.
It would be interesting to see photos of both the acquisitions you have as Primrose Warburg when they are in flower please, Carolyn.
Your Spindlestone Surprise interests me because the spathe is long and I have just measured the ovary on your photo and got 14 x 21mm = 2:3. These are a mix of characteristics between Primrose Warburg and Spindlestone Surprise!
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The thing which interests me in these two is if the other is more hardy or vigorous in northern climates than the other. Have I understood correctly that SS originates from more north than PW? I will have to buy PW next summer to compare them here (it was in Dryad summer list last summer, I hope it will be there also this year).
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Through the collective knowledge and effort of Forumists here we may be able to advance our understanding of the distinctiveness of these cultivars that will help to clear up the mess we seem to be in. We're lucky to have some resources that may help in this (i.e. a photograph of the original clump of PW in The Book, North Green appear to hold plants of good provenance etc.) The longer this is left the more difficult it will be.
I quite agree Matt, don't get me wrong, but in the meantime let's just enjoy our plants :D If people are growing both and can see there is a difference in time of flowering/ height or whatever then that can be nothing but good. It is down to the botanists etc to clear this up, all we can do is offer our own observations.
Offer one or the other, whichever is believed to be correct, but don't mix them up further and potentially exacerbate the existing problem.
Absolutely
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Hi all - we have been following this thread, and Alan is going to write something out for me to post here when he gets time - it's very hectic here getting things ready for sales and sending out all of your orders!!! Matt - yours was sent out on Monday, so you should be receiving it any day.
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By definition there cannot be more than one form of a cultivar....
Absolutely and I did not mean to imply otherwise. But sometimes there are different snowdrops being circulated under the same cultivar name - and I'm sure this problem is not confined to snowdrops. I think we should treat expensive snowdrops as one would expensive antiques and care very much about the provenance of the ones we buy - but few others think likewise.
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Thanks, Maxine!
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What is not in the book, of course, nor anywhere else I have seen, is the report from the Northumbrian lady who gave a yellow from Spindlestone to Primrose Warburg. That would meant that the two would be VERY closely related but that route to Mrs Warburg's garden has not been recounted anywhere in the 'drop literature, I think. Perhaps the 'inner circle' is not so well informed as it might prefer to think!
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I heard a whisper at the weekend that it may have been shared by one person to another and the second person named it also
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It would not surprise me to find the two are the same clone. Until then , I will keep my acquisitions separate. Hurry up with that DNA testing app, someone!
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What is not in the book, of course, nor anywhere else I have seen, is the report from the Northumbrian lady who gave a yellow from Spindlestone to Primrose Warburg. That would meant that the two would be VERY closely related but that route to Mrs Warburg's garden has not been recounted anywhere in the 'drop literature, I think. Perhaps the 'inner circle' is not so well informed as it might prefer to think!
Fascinating. Once again, Maggi you're excellent connections prove to be invaluable in shedding some light. The more examples you look at, the harder it is to seperate them by physical characteristics, so I had wondered whether such a thing might have occurred.
It will be interesting to see what else we discover on the subject.
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I think that the sister of the woman who discovered the yellow snowdrop, and another member of our Belford group know a lot about this phenomenon. I will ask if either knows if and when such a snowdrop was sent to Primrose at our next meeting.... And I'll report back if I find anything more out, but I'm not a drop fan really and certainly have not read the literature....
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It was from personal conversations with the ladies Christine mentions that Ian became aware of a gift of a Spindlestone yellow having been given to Mrs Warburg. No reason to doubt their memories.
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Spoke to Phillipa yesterday. She says PW went up to see her and was taken to see all the yellows during the visit. At the end as she was leaving Phillipa gave her one of the yellow snowdrops which she took home. Apparently there was a label beside PWs yellow saying PC, and as they couldn't figure out what or who it referred to, called it Primrose Warberg. Phillips also commented that Spindlestone Surprise was one Ron McBeath named. Her view is that they are variable and should all just be called the Northumberland snowdrop.
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Interesting, Chris. That all fits with what we know and has been published. The only question remaining: 'Spindlestone Warburg' or 'Primrose Surprise' (we ready need a 'tongue in cheek' smilie!)
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Spoke to Phillipa yesterday. She says PW went up to see her and was taken to see all the yellows during the visit. At the end as she was leaving Phillipa gave her one of the yellow snowdrops which she took home. Apparently there was a label beside PWs yellow saying PC, and as they couldn't figure out what or who it referred to, called it Primrose Warberg. Phillips also commented that Spindlestone Surprise was one Ron McBeath named. Her view is that they are variable and should all just be called the Northumberland snowdrop.
So is Phillipa PC?
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She didn't say, John, but her initials are PC....
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The plot thickens...
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The plot thickens...
Really? I thought it was thinning out nicely.
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;D ;D
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Interesting, Chris. That all fits with what we know and has been published. The only question remaining: 'Spindlestone Warburg' or 'Primrose Surprise' (we ready need a 'tongue in cheek' smilie!)
Surely Spindlestone Surprise is the name with priority, if we have to choose?
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can one un-immortalise?!
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Indeed, if one plant has been named twice. As Anne says, the first name will take precedence.
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Surely Spindlestone Surprise is the name with priority, if we have to choose?
An interesting thought Anne, I was always told that with bulbs provenance is everything and following this discussion I have been thinking to myself how it just depends where people have had the bulbs from and it's 'genealogy' if you like. I do know good growers who have both and will tell you that they are quite different in their garden either from height, shape or flowering time and these are people who have been growing snowdrops for a lot longer than many of us. I think it is quite possible that there are two seperate family lines or two clones and the established growers have obtained bulbs that do exhibit differences, however, over time the birds and the bees could have muddled the situation with bulbs being passed on which could easily be hybrids of the two. Jim Almond was talking at the Cottage Garden Snowdrop Group Day on Saturday about the early flowering snowdrops and how he still grows many that are now lumped under the term Galanthus reginae-olgae but keeps their original name in case they are ever split out again. This seems to me a very sensible approach, know that there is a possibility that it is wrongly labelled but keep the name you have it as and enjoy the flowers. If you have either SS, PW, SW or PS it doesn't really matter if you like that flower ;)
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A couple of observations on this most interesting discussion as the plot thins or thickens, readers' choice. First, I often see ‘Spindlestone Surprise’ referenced in comparative terms as larger and most often taller than PM. Also we frequently see comments that folks can grow one variety well, but not the other. So there are a fair number of anecdotal observations that imply the two are not identical.
Second, we just read that Phillipa gave Primrose Warburg a yellow or a Spindlestone yellow on her departure. That by itself does not mean it was the same cultivar as ‘Spindlestone Surprise’, unless ‘Spindlestone Surprise’ was the only yellow that Phillipa was growing at the time. Do we know this to be the case? If so, then the case for same plant seems a bit more airtight. Yet, the question remains as to whether PW(the cultivar) is a similar chance seedling originating in Phillipa’s garden or even Primrose Warburg’s garden.
However, if we know Phillipa was growing multiple yellow cultivars, then the identity of the yellow she gave Primrose that day becomes less certain and gets us back to Brian’s point, better to keep them as separate cultivars under possible a group name. ;) Rick
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Bringing us back to the point that it would be useful to have a rigorous examination of correctly identified stock (i.e. known provenance) to determine whether/what the differences are. If they are distinct it's quite possible that stocks are thoroughly mixed and misidentified. It would be good if this issue could be addressed in one of the volumes that will update The Book.
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Yes I do agree Matt, but as with the Greatorex "answers on a postcard please" hybrids the only way this would be achieved would be through DNA (is that really what I mean?) testing which is expensive.
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Sorry, to clarify a little, when I said taken to see them all, Philippa said they were in a variety of places, some growing wild, not all in her garden. Would be best if one of you more thoroughly knowledgeable on the subject was to take some time talking direct to Philippa. I can contact her to see if she would be willing to talk to one of you so I can bow out if you like.
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Yes I do agree Matt, but as with the Greatorex "answers on a postcard please" hybrids the only way this would be achieved would be through DNA (is that really what I mean?) testing which is expensive.
I emailed a DNA testing company for a quote but they say they can't do snowdrops at present...
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I emailed a DNA testing company for a quote but they say they can't do snowdrops at present...
At least you tried, Anne. Somebody like Aaron Davies might know how to get DNA testing done. I would love to see a bit more science put paid to speculation.