Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => Travel / Places to Visit => Topic started by: alistairsmac on January 01, 2008, 10:44:40 PM
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I visited the Grindelwald region in September 2007 and came across a few plants with which I was not altogether familiar.
I had a look at the Collins Wild Flowers book and I think the first one is Gentianella Campestris although it might be G Autumnalis. The next two pictures are of the same plant which I thought was a Gentian but the only plant with fringed petals in the book was Gentianella Ciliata. The fourth photo I can't match to anything in the book and I saw only the one plant during our six days of walking.
The plants were growing at 2000 - 2300 metres or so.
Could someone tell me if I am on the right track with the first two and identify the third one please.
Thanks.
Alistair.
PS This is my first ever post so I hope I've got it right!
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The fourth photo I can't match to anything in the book and I saw only the one plant during our six days of walking.
It looks to me like Saxifraga sedoides ???
Anyway, welcome to the Forum Alistair!
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Hi Kathrine and Alistair,
Can I add my own 'Welcome' Alistair....you will get so much pleasure from your time on this site?
Sorry, but I don't think that your plant is Sax' sedoides, the foliage of that particular saxifrage is slightly more succulent.
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And this?
What do you think, Cliff?
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Hi Kathrine,
I'm fairly certain that your lovely images ARE of Sax' sedoides (from the Dolomites presumably), but whilst the flowers look right in Alistair's image, the foliage does not. Where are you Franz and your vastly superior knowledge of the region?
I have been studying various Moehringias, Minuartias and other Sax's, but without success.
Has anyone seen Sax' sedoides with this variable foliage?
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Cliff - is it possible that the plant in Alastairs pic is Sax sedoides with 'out of character' foliage? It is growing in what looks like a shady place against an overhanging rock while Kathrine has shown us a plant in an exposed site.
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Sorry, but I don't think that your plant is Sax' sedoides, the foliage of that particular saxifrage is slightly more succulent.
According to the leaves my first thought was an Achillea, but the flowers are not.
Possibly it is a Saxifraga. I have seen Sax sedoides very often in the Eastern Alps, but never saw plants like this.
I presume however, these were growing on the very northern side of a rock and kept fairly dry under this rock.
Luit van Delft
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Tony, I can agree your opinion. Your Austrian Saxifrages like moschata or azoides have so many different foliages which depend on the altitude and the locations where they grow.
hans
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Alistair,
The names of the Gentians are correct. The plant of your last picture grows in shade. I do not know it.
Kathrine,
Please, know you where the plant (Saxifraga) grows? That is necessary for the ID!
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Alistair,
Would it be possible to post a blown-up portion of the original image please....you have certainly caused some discussion with your very first posting....keep up the good work.
Many thanks,
Cliff
Thanks for responding so quickly Franz!
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Kathrine,
Please, know you where the plant (Saxifraga) grows? That is necessary for the ID!
Grüß Dich, Franz!
"My" Saxifraga was photographed (as Cliff has touched the spot very well) in the Dolomites, near Grödner Pass.
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Kathrine,
Saxifraga sedoides a variable species with 3 subspecies. Apart from variation clearly induced by difference in habit, this species varies also in the number of flowers on a stem. The presence or absence of leaves on flowering stems. The size and shape of the petals and, to some extent, in the frequency of lobed leaves. Since you saw this plant in Dolomites, it is Saxifraga sedoides subsp. sedoides.
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Franz,
thank you very very much for this detailed description!!!
I usually identify the plants with the help of "The Alpine Plants of Britain and Europe" by Ch. Grey-Wilson and also using the excellent site: http://flora.nhm-wien.ac.at/ (with a little help of dictionary :))
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Dear All,
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.
I've tried a bit of cropping and enlargement of the ? Saxifraga sedoides. As far as I recollect the plant was growing under an overhanging boulder facing approx SW.
Regards to all.
Alistair.
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Many thanks Alistair and all,
The images are quite helpful and might assist to provide an answer?
One VERY significant addition to the puzzle is that Sax' sedoides is NOT listed in the magnificent (and very thorough) Flora Helvetica. From the enlarged image the foliage looks even less like the succulent almost fleshy little leaves of S.sedoides we have encountered in the Dolomites, but those flowers are still very convincing?
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I usually identify the plants with the help of "The Alpine Plants of Britain and Europe" by Ch. Grey-Wilson and also using the excellent site: http://flora.nhm-wien.ac.at/ (with a little help of dictionary :))
Kathrine, this 'flora-site'is really excellent! Very good pictures!
Thank you very much.
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Graag gedaan. :)
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Dear All,
I have come across another photo from the same trip but in a rather lower location (approx 1800Metres) which plant has a look of Saxifraga sedoides about it as it has very definitely succulent type leaves. Could this be correct? If so I think the other one in the original post is not the same plant.
Regards.
Alistair
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I think this is Sax. aizoides.
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Kathrine, you are right it is Saxifraga aizoides.
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Thanks Franz and Katherine, Saxifraga azoides it is! Is it the consensus opinion that the original Saxifraga is S. Sedoides with modified leaves or is it another as yet unidentified?
I have another photo, this time of a campanula - I'd like to know its name if someone could tell me.
Thanks.
Alistair.
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Sorry Alistair, but I am still convinced that S. sedoides doesn't grow in the Bernese Oberland!
Working on your Campanula....
Kind regards.
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Cliff, you are right Saxifraga sedoides grow not in the Bernese Oberland.
It is confined to the southern calcareous mountains. In the north it is found only in the calcareous Austrian Alps.
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Assuming the leaves belong to the campanula it is not C cochlearifolia so how about Campanula scheuzeri? Rocky places are not typical for it perhaps, but I'm assuming this site was not barren scree.
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how about Campanula scheuzeri?
I thought it was too short for that... but now I see that C. scheuchzeri can be 5(!)-30 cm tall. :o
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Yes, Kathrine, it is usually taller but this plant is only just opening its flowers and seems to be growing in a rocky place which might lead to a more compact habit.
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Thanks to all for comments and suggestions.
I am returning to Grindelwald this September to show my wife, Janette, the delights of the area both botanic and scenic. I am a novice as far as Rock Gardening is concerned but, having obained Jim Jermyns book for Christmas, am intent on trying a few troughs.
It seems likely that in September there might be seeds to be found from plants which flowered earlier in the season. Could anyone suggest what I might look out for and where.
As far as identifying plants from foliage and habit alone is concerned I think I should struggle and if there are any tips I should be grateful.
Regards to all.
Alistair.