Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Plant Identification => Plant Identification Questions and Answers => Topic started by: Margaret on July 26, 2013, 10:22:22 PM

Title: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Margaret on July 26, 2013, 10:22:22 PM

I have been turning an area of rough ground into a place with bee and butterfly friendly plants. At this time of year it is mostly knapweed. Today I noticed that one of the plants is white. Has anyone seen this elsewhere?
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: mark smyth on July 26, 2013, 11:26:46 PM
wow its lovely.

I used to have one called Silver Halo where the outer florets were white
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Alan_b on July 26, 2013, 11:32:22 PM
There literally is a White Knapweed, Centaurea diffusa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaurea_diffusa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaurea_diffusa) but yours is a white form of (I think) Centaurea nigra.  The second picture down on the right here appears to show a white form http://wildseed.co.uk/species/view/32 (http://wildseed.co.uk/species/view/32) .

The RHS Plant finder list two suppliers of Centaurea nigra var. alba.  If it were me, I would take this plant under my wing and cultivate it as something out of the ordinary.
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Maggi Young on July 27, 2013, 12:09:13 PM
I haven't seen a pretty white form like that, Margaret. What a special bee friendly plant that will be - lucky you!
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Margaret on July 27, 2013, 08:43:52 PM


I hope it is a white form of Centaurea nigra and not C diffusa which sounds like a baddie.  How should I go about collecting seed of the white form given that it's surrounded by a sea of its lavender relations.
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: mark smyth on August 13, 2015, 10:17:04 AM
what happened to your plant?
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Brian Ellis on August 13, 2015, 06:08:17 PM

I hope it is a white form of Centaurea nigra and not C diffusa which sounds like a baddie.  How should I go about collecting seed of the white form given that it's surrounded by a sea of its lavender relations.
If it's centaurea and you can get to the roots it will easily make new plants, much quicker than seed.
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: ian mcdonald on August 13, 2015, 07:56:05 PM
Hello Margaret, quite a few of our native flowers have white forms naturally. White bluebells, white basil, white marsh thistle, white heather, white bell heather etc.
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Margaret on September 24, 2015, 11:29:37 PM
Hi Mark, Brian and Ian

Sorry not to have replied before. I had had a bad year or more and didn't follow the forum or do much gardening. When I started reading the forum again I never thought to look at 'new replies to your posts' because I hadn't made any!

The white knapweed is doing fine along with all its purple friends. In fact they are all growing a bit too well and have started seeding into the flower beds. My brother-in-law complained about the area (about 3 x 15m) looking a mess last summer. I was upset at the time but I'm starting to wonder if Centaurea nigra was a mistake. It likes the conditions (rich loam on a sunny cliff top) a bit too much.  I'm thinking of taking out a fair sized junk (not the white though) and trialing a few other things. Maybe Centaurea scabiosa would be better behaved.

Can anyone suggest plants for growing in rough grass on good soil? The yellow rattle (Rhinanthus minor) which was planted 4 years ago did nothing to weaken the grass and has disappeared. The grass is not mown because of Spring bulbs, mostly Pheasant Eye daffodils and a few Camassia.

Many thanks for the help with the white  knapweed.

Margaret
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Tristan_He on September 24, 2015, 11:56:35 PM
Lovely plant Margaret, will you be donating seed to the seed exchange?

I've not found yellow rattle easy to establish either - perhaps the wrong sort of grasses. I have instead invested in an Austrian scythe which is very effective for managing long grass (and the perennial border when things need cutting). See http://www.thescytheshop.co.uk/ (http://www.thescytheshop.co.uk/)

Personally I'm very fond of small scabious (Scabiosa columbaria) - it's also a very good bee and butterfly plant and would look great with the knapweed. The related S. ochroleuca is nice and a pleasant creamy colour (not native though if this is important to you). I wouldn't recommend Centaurea scabiosa as this tends to be larger and more aggressive than C. nigra.

Tristan
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: mark smyth on September 25, 2015, 12:29:40 AM
To establish yellow rattle I think you need to cut the grass down to soil levels scarify the ground and sow the rattle seeds

Here's a white marsh thistle on Jo Hynes land. Saw it late at night which is why the flower is in my hand

Also saw lots of white rosebay willow herb on the roadsides in England. I'd give that plant a home
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Brian Ellis on September 25, 2015, 10:03:32 AM
Also saw lots of white rosebay willow herb on the roadsides in England. I'd give that plant a home
I did, it is said that it is sterile so you may think you are safe, but it spreads by underground stolons (rather too well in my border) and I spend a lot of time getting rid of it down to a manageable size again.  If you want a runner Mark....
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Tristan_He on September 25, 2015, 06:02:05 PM
Yes, rosebay willow herb is a terrible weed. Avoid!

I've tried scarifying the soil, cutting back turf really hard, sowing together with grass seed, mixing with sand.... all sorts. Just doesn't seem to get going. The frustrating thing is that there is loads of it in the meadow next door (and yes I have tried seed from there, with permission)!

May try some Euphrasia instead.
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Neil on September 25, 2015, 07:12:17 PM
Read this about establishing yellow rattle http://wildseed.co.uk/page/using-yellow-rattle-to-increase-species-diversity (http://wildseed.co.uk/page/using-yellow-rattle-to-increase-species-diversity)  it did take me a couple of years to get it established. 
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Tristan_He on September 25, 2015, 08:03:35 PM
Thanks Neil, that's a useful link. I will keep trying.

Tristan
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Margaret on September 26, 2015, 08:21:09 PM
Tristan, thank you for the useful suggestions. I love Scabiosa ochroleuca and think I already have a plant (with lots of seed!) on the allotment - photo attached for confirmation.  I can't collect seed of the white knapweed just now because it's indistinguishable from the others at this time of year. I need to mark it next summer.

Mark, I can send you a bit of the white knapweed next autumn if you would like it. Afraid it is very vigorous and may not be good company for your choice plants. Photo shows the knapweed two days ago in Scotland.

Margaret
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Alan_b on September 26, 2015, 10:25:36 PM
Also saw lots of white rosebay willow herb on the roadsides in England. I'd give that plant a home

This is grown as a garden cultivar and was a feature of the White Garden at Sissinghurst last time I was there.  I have some that grows in my lawn but only to a few inches high and never with flowers.  So although it may be a terrible weed when it is happily established, it is perfectly possible to keep it miserable.  Therefore perhaps there is some compromise set of growth conditions that would allow it to flower without spreading too fast?
Title: Re: Is there a white knapweed?
Post by: Tristan_He on September 29, 2015, 04:52:33 PM
I think i mentioned the butterflies like Scabiosa - here is the evidence!

Tristan
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