Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Helen Johnstone on July 20, 2013, 07:23:07 PM
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I have been reading Philips and Rix Bulbs and looking at how to construct a bulb frame. However I am a little mystified as to whether these are covered or not. The book says the bulb frame helps keep the bulbs dry in summer etc so presumably that means they are protected from rain? If the frames are covered - what with? How does a bulb frame differ from an alpine house.
I have been looking at getting one of the Access Cold Frames to use as a small alpine house but is this really the same as a bulb frame?
I do understand that bulbs need different conditions to other alpines and should be kept separate. It just seems strange that whilst the construction of the raised bit of the frame and filling it is discussed there is no discussion of what to cover it with.
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I have been reading Philips and Rix Bulbs and looking at how to construct a bulb frame. However I am a little mystified as to whether these are covered or not. The book says the bulb frame helps keep the bulbs dry in summer etc so presumably that means they are protected from rain? If the frames are covered - what with? How does a bulb frame differ from an alpine house.
I have been looking at getting one of the Access Cold Frames to use as a small alpine house but is this really the same as a bulb frame?
I do understand that bulbs need different conditions to other alpines and should be kept separate. It just seems strange that whilst the construction of the raised bit of the frame and filling it is discussed there is no discussion of what to cover it with.
In my experience Access frames are fine for bulbs - if a bit expensive. Last year (?) Anne Wright had an instructive series of posts on home-made frames.
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The cover/roof and sides are glass or polycarbonate to obtain maximum use of all available light. Martyn mentions the fact that excess snowfall weight can make the frame collapse.
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In my experience Access frames are fine for bulbs - if a bit expensive. Last year (?) Anne Wright had an instructive series of posts on home-made frames.
Thanks Gerry - I am thinking of treating myself to an Access cold frame eventually, struggling to find information on home made frames, I can find info about the bases but not the covers
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The cover/roof and sides are glass or polycarbonate to obtain maximum use of all available light. Martyn mentions the fact that excess snowfall weight can make the frame collapse.
It is all rather perplexing, I think I will ask my son if he can build me something.
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Thanks Gerry - I am thinking of treating myself to an Access cold frame eventually, struggling to find information on home made frames, I can find info about the bases but not the covers
Helen - Anne's posts on home made frames/plunge beds are here:
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8605.msg232408;topicseen#msg232408 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8605.msg232408;topicseen#msg232408)
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Helen. The frames of my home made frames are made of dexion (second hand angle iron used in shopfitting amongst other things). This is built up to waste height. Within the frame are paving slabs to form the internal base and wooden shuttering boards to form the sides thereby creating a box. To the back are screwed wooden pillars approx 4 x 2 cm and at a height of around 30cm. The same at the front but a few cm less to provide a slope. I have some old secondary double glazing channelling screwed to the back posts into which my covers just slide and rest on the front ones. I have been lucky to retain some old secondary double glazing panels which are perfect although you can use polycarbonate but this will need holding down as it is too light otherwise. The sides are completely open so allow an overhang to suit your needs. They have survived close to twenty years so far. Relatively cheap although sourcing some of the parts may need some searching around. Good luck.
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Relevant to this thread and also to Tim's post here : http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10715.msg281288#msg281288 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10715.msg281288#msg281288) ...........
I and M Y's article on our raised "slab" beds and removeable covers :
[attachurl=1]
and for other things....
http://www.srgc.org.uk/feature/ichristie/beginalp.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/feature/ichristie/beginalp.html) Ian Christie's starter notes
http://www.srgc.org.uk/feature/back%20to%20troughs/backtroughs.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/feature/back%20to%20troughs/backtroughs.html) Get together to learn- pictures that show the fun
http://www.srgc.org.uk/nurseryws/ws.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/nurseryws/ws.html) Ian Christie's Nursery workshops - with seed starting notes etc
http://www.srgc.org.uk/journal/young/bulbsfromseed.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/journal/young/bulbsfromseed.html) Ian Y's Bulbs from seed article
And leaving perhaps the most important resource to last :
http://files.srgc.net/journals/SRGCIndex2013January.pdf (http://files.srgc.net/journals/SRGCIndex2013January.pdf) Full Index to SRGC Journals - and ALL, except the few most recent ones, are freely available to anyone online here : http://www.srgc.net/site/index.php/extensions/journal (http://www.srgc.net/site/index.php/extensions/journal)
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Thank you so very much for those Maggi - the trough demonstration day described by Sandy is just the sort of thing I have been thinking about, though I imagined doing something at one of the Shows. And the other practical demos. are really good; shows the value of the website(!) and someone who knows their way around it! They seem to be just as, if not more, valuable to those of us who have a little idea of what we are doing, as they are to anyone who is only just beginning.
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Relevant to this thread and also to Tim's post here : http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10715.msg281288#msg281288 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10715.msg281288#msg281288) ...........
I and M Y's article on our raised "slab" beds and removeable covers :
(Attachment Link)
and for other things....
http://www.srgc.org.uk/feature/ichristie/beginalp.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/feature/ichristie/beginalp.html) Ian Christie's starter notes
http://www.srgc.org.uk/feature/back%20to%20troughs/backtroughs.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/feature/back%20to%20troughs/backtroughs.html) Get together to learn- pictures that show the fun
http://www.srgc.org.uk/nurseryws/ws.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/nurseryws/ws.html) Ian Christie's Nursery workshops - with seed starting notes etc
http://www.srgc.org.uk/journal/young/bulbsfromseed.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/journal/young/bulbsfromseed.html) Ian Y's Bulbs from seed article
And leaving perhaps the most important resource to last :
http://files.srgc.net/journals/SRGCIndex2013January.pdf (http://files.srgc.net/journals/SRGCIndex2013January.pdf) Full Index to SRGC Journals - and ALL, except the few most recent ones, are freely available to anyone online here : http://www.srgc.net/site/index.php/extensions/journal (http://www.srgc.net/site/index.php/extensions/journal)
Many thanks - its the age old problem of the more I read the more confused I become. But I am getting there and appreciate all the help and advice. SRGC members are so generous and encouraging
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Helen - Anne's posts on home made frames/plunge beds are here:
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8605.msg232408;topicseen#msg232408 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8605.msg232408;topicseen#msg232408)
Many thanks Gerry
I will print that off so I can show my son who may be pressed into helping with construction
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Helen. The frames of my home made frames are made of dexion (second hand angle iron used in shopfitting amongst other things). This is built up to waste height. Within the frame are paving slabs to form the internal base and wooden shuttering boards to form the sides thereby creating a box. To the back are screwed wooden pillars approx 4 x 2 cm and at a height of around 30cm. The same at the front but a few cm less to provide a slope. I have some old secondary double glazing channelling screwed to the back posts into which my covers just slide and rest on the front ones. I have been lucky to retain some old secondary double glazing panels which are perfect although you can use polycarbonate but this will need holding down as it is too light otherwise. The sides are completely open so allow an overhang to suit your needs. They have survived close to twenty years so far. Relatively cheap although sourcing some of the parts may need some searching around. Good luck.
Hi Paul
Many thanks for taking the trouble of giving this advice, it is much appreciated. It is interesting that the books give information on plunges but none on the covers etc!!
Helen
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The idea of different workshops at shows is a tempting one, Tim but the reality for most shows is that there is often not enough space for all the ancillary meetings that need to take place on show days (when sufficient members may be expected to be available/present) let alone have the space and personnel for full blown workshops.
The trough day at Ian Christie's place was one of the wettest days I have experienced yet there were well over a hundred soggy people leaving afterwards, each with their own trough and a huge smile.
A similar day SRGC trough was held "up north" and that was also a great success - and they had better weather, the lucky devils!
Whenever trough demonstrations have been held at local groups or at the likes of Gardening Scotland, they have proved extremely popular with the audiences.
One year Ian did a demo in the Beechgrove Theatre every day at G.S. and it was packed out each time - the public really respond to such practical - and easy to follow - workshops.
The Bainbridges have given such trough demos as well - popular every time.
Helen: if you can afford Access frame(s) then that is an easy solution - many friends have these and swear by them.
If you need/want a more homemade version you can get a good home for your plants by various means- and covers can be constructed/contrived in many ways too. (I've just remembered that there are descriptions in old journals of Mike and Polly Stone's plunge beds in "The Stone Column", too)
The main difference, by the way, between a plunge bed ( access frame) and an alpine house is that the former provides protection for the plants while the latter does that and also provides cover for the gardener!
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Helen: if you can afford Access frame(s) then that is an easy solution - many friends have these and swear by them.
If you need/want a more homemade version you can get a good home for your plants by various means- and covers can be constructed/contrived in many ways too. (I've just remembered that there are descriptions in old journals of Mike and Polly Stone's plunge beds in "The Stone Column", too)
The main difference, by the way, between a plunge bed ( access frame) and an alpine house is that the former provides protection for the plants while the latter does that and also provides cover for the gardener!
Hi Maggie
I have the Access brochure and saw one of their cold frames at the Pershore garden today and I think it will serve my purpose. I am thinking I might save up and treat myself to an early Christmas present. I want to keep my greenhouse for more tender plants and bulbs. I am also planning a small rockery given that we have a pile of Malvern stone to find something to do with and a sloping garden so it seems a natural solution so I think if I get an access cold frame I should have all options covered for the time being.
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One of the most important features for me of a plunge frame or raised bed is that they can be arranged to suit YOU - perfect height, etc to allow you to tend and enjoy your plants. VERY useful things - I think it would be the perfect present for you, Helen!
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Helen. The frames of my home made frames are made of dexion (second hand angle iron used in shopfitting amongst other things). This is built up to waste height. Within the frame are paving slabs to form the internal base and wooden shuttering boards to form the sides thereby creating a box. To the back are screwed wooden pillars approx 4 x 2 cm and at a height of around 30cm. The same at the front but a few cm less to provide a slope. I have some old secondary double glazing channelling screwed to the back posts into which my covers just slide and rest on the front ones. I have been lucky to retain some old secondary double glazing panels which are perfect although you can use polycarbonate but this will need holding down as it is too light otherwise. The sides are completely open so allow an overhang to suit your needs. They have survived close to twenty years so far. Relatively cheap although sourcing some of the parts may need some searching around. Good luck.
Paul and Gill grow fantastic plants - so this advice comes with a Five Star notice!!
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Please excuse me for for repeating what is probably in many of the links provided in this thread, I have not open them all. a raised plunge or planting bed bed such as in the Rix book can provide excellent conditions for many bulbs, including dessert ones, even in high rain fall areas. Covering them is an optional luxury not necessary for a lot of plants. I discovered that erecting a cheap six or eight foot wide green house over such a bed was a great deal cheaper for the area coverd than an access frame. Cheapest green houses I have found in the UK were from the green house people near Uttoxeter
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That's a very good point, Peter - you can often see some real bargains in small glasshouses.
In fact, that is the reason our glass houses comprise three and a half 'el cheapo' 8 x 6 aluminium glass houses ;) ;D
Edit: Mind you, I don't think that bargains such as we got are around now - having just had a mooch around online to see current prices! :o Though perhaps I should have taken inflation into consideration. ::) :-X
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I dont have room for another greenhouse - small garden mostly sloping. I am looking for a cold frame/plunge and liked Access ones as they seem to have very good ventilation which I think will be good for a newbie like me who is at work all day
Been reading Kath Dryden who has made me laugh out loud a few times and she says I should invest in a small alpine house so I am doing as told!!
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8 x 10 = 80 sqare feet for £449.00 here, compare that to the price of access frames Maggie!
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A 9'11" x 4' cold frame is £374 - I dont think they go any bigger
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Kath's garden was pretty small and when she talked about a small alpine house she had a couple that were hardly big enough to walk into - one devoted to cyclamen I think, and another to hepaticas. Another greenhouse I remember is at the Malahide Garden in Dublin; not very large and all the glass from the sides had been completely removed - sounds a little like Peter's house except it was planted with puyas, bomareas and other such plants. What a stimulating thread this has become!
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sorry I forgot the link for my earlier post http://www.greenhousepeople.co.uk/clearance/ (http://www.greenhousepeople.co.uk/clearance/)
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Kath's garden was pretty small and when she talked about a small alpine house she had a couple that were hardly big enough to walk into - one devoted to cyclamen I think, and another to hepaticas. Another greenhouse I remember is at the Malahide Garden in Dublin; not very large and all the glass from the sides had been completely removed - sounds a little like Peter's house except it was planted with puyas, bomareas and other such plants. What a stimulating thread this has become!
Hi Tim
I have a small garden too and am only looking to accommodate some pots of bulbs possbly for showing rather than a nursery etc.
I think I have made a decision to buy a small Access cold frame now. I just need to consider its location. My garden is not only smallish but it slopes a lot so there are few flat areas to locate a frame and I have no desire to dig out another flat space!!
This thread has shown have innovative alpine growers are with their DIY constructions
Helen
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Not about bulb frames but new greenhouse plunge staging :
on 17th July we ordered plunge staging, custom size, from Two Wests for one of the bulb houses - it has arrived this morning - speedy huh?!!
www.twowests.co.uk (http://www.twowests.co.uk)
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Not about bulb frames but new greenhouse plunge staging :
on 17th July we ordered plunge staging, custom size, from Two Wests for one of the bulb houses - it has arrived this morning - speedy huh?!!
www.twowests.co.uk (http://www.twowests.co.uk)
Do they do the heavy duty stuff that takes the weight of plunges then?
I have some space in my greenhouse which I had wondered about using for alpines, mainly bulbs. The greenhouse is kept frost free but is small so the only ventilation is the door so presumably not ideal for the summer although bulbs would certainly have a good bake. I know there are some who frown on using heat but I am more interested in whether the bulbs need the cold weather to break their dormancy so that in fact putting narcissus/tulips in a greenhouse wont help the plants? If that makes sense.
Helen
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This staging has got a six inch plunge area and elsewhere in the forum various members have spoken of their use of this make. Mark Smyth. didn't think like it but, as I recall, Martin R. and Diane Clement both have it and are happy with it and their opinion is what we went on.
We take out panes of glass in summer to improve ventilation of our 8x 6 foot glass houses. There are heating cables in most plunges at the moment which are used only to prevent the pots being entirely frozen in winter. Most years these do not even come on.
This staging is for house with mostly narcissus and crocus - though the others will need to be renewed as well. We decided to just buy for one house till we saw for ourselves what the staging is like.
Getting the old home-made VERY rusted dexion staging OUT will be our next problem - new angle grinder is on order!!
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Hi Maggie
So in theory I could put a bulb plunge in my frost free greenhouse? This would allow me more time to see if I need to buy/build an additional cold frame
Helen (confused of Malvern!)
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Indeed you could - and a section of plunge staging by Two Wests cost about £150 for a section 80" by 24" (they work still in imperial measurements!) http://www.twowests.co.uk/product/plunge-propagating-bench (http://www.twowests.co.uk/product/plunge-propagating-bench)
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Indeed you could - and a section of plunge staging by Two Wests cost about £150 for a section 80" by 24" (they work still in imperial measurements!) http://www.twowests.co.uk/product/plunge-propagating-bench (http://www.twowests.co.uk/product/plunge-propagating-bench)
Hmm, for me it would be about £76 which is a lot cheaper than an Access frame and would give me the option of seeing how I go before I invest more in this. I already have Two Wests staging - some slatted and some gravel beds which are shallow and I find they are good for germinating seeds which need the greenhouse. I will have to really think about what I want to grow next spring. As I could replace the gravel trays with plunges. Not only do I not have much space but I also have limited time available so I need to focus on a smaller range of plants rather than trying to grow everything and not doing it well!!!
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Hi Maggie
So in theory I could put a bulb plunge in my frost free greenhouse? This would allow me more time to see if I need to buy/build an additional cold frame
Helen (confused of Malvern!)
This is why green houses work out cheaper than access frames!
Frost free is not a problem for most winter growing bulbs, erratic freezing and hot temperatures while still in growth are a problem,
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This is why green houses work out cheaper than access frames!
Frost free is not a problem for most winter growing bulbs, erratic freezing and hot temperatures while still in growth are a problem,
I was thinking of a cold frame as havent space for another greenhouse but anyway..
For some reason I think I read somewhere that spring flowering bulbs needed the cold of winter for some reason?
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Depends to what degree you heat the glass house. If you only prevent the temperature falling below zero then they'll be fine. If you have the place heated to five or ten plus degrees C. then that might be too hot for alpine show bulbs.
Mind you, there are those growers who keep their alpine houses 'frost free' so we'd need to hear from them what temp. they use and what effect it has..... .... anyone volunteering that info????
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Depends to what degree you heat the glass house. If you only prevent the temperature falling below zero then they'll be fine. If you have the place heated to five or ten plus degrees C. then that might be too hot for alpine show bulbs.
Mind you, there are those growers who keep their alpine houses 'frost free' so we'd need to hear from them what temp. they use and what effect it has..... .... anyone volunteering that info????
Oooo I dont want to start a heat or not to heat debate - I understand that is a subject that gets people heated!!
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Tee Hee! ;D And this on the day that the radio weather forecast tells us will be the hottest of the year in the UK!
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Tee Hee! ;D And this on the day that the radio weather forecast tells us will be the hottest of the year in the UK!
Think we have had our hottest day thank goodness - 32C on the day of the Tewkesbury AGS show
Interesting that there are no threads about keeping alpines cool in the hot weather aside from good ventiliation. Could some be affected by extremes of heat?
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Certainly there are many alpine plants which are not keen on too much heat- especially in the confines of a frame or alpine house. In such case forced ventilation by fans and with shading can help. It is not something which we in Aberdeen have to worry too much about. :-X
Even outside however, it does not take too much in the way of 'a decent summer' to dry out plants such as Ramondas and Haberleas. These mostly re-hydrate quite well, even after being reduced to what seems to be a lifeless crisp. That is not to say that one should allow that level of drying out if one can possibly avoid it.
We have had very little rain here for some time. There are plants suffering greatly because of this (since it is not practical for us to water all the garden and our section that is served by a leaky ( perforated/soak) hose is out of order. The gorgeous Corydalis Craigton Blue is retreating weeks early to premature dormancy, Primula florindae are wilting and some Rhododendrons are looking VERY unhappy. We are at least trying to keep the likes of the Ramondas a bit cooler and dampish. Roscoeas are going over at great speed this year.
If we still had any alpines under glass in this weather we'd have shading on ( something we never had to do in years gone by here) and have all the fans running and most side panes of glass out of the houses.
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As to the 'frost free' question, the nearest I get to that is when the weather forecast in winter shows an overnight low of -3C or lower predicted, I turn on an oil-filled radiator to it's 'frost' setting in the late evening and turn it off again before going to work in the morning. Fuel bills are therefore acceptable, even in the cold winter of the last two years.
The thermometer shows that it can get down to -5C occasionally, but nothing seems to have suffered. I've just repotted a potful of Lachanalia bulbs that have stood on the floor or the greenhouse, unplunged, for two years, and they're bulking up nicely. If they can survive, then I'm tempted to say anything can. :D
I tried cables in the plunge previously, but kept finding that I was digging down to the cables when plunging pots, so took them out. Now I can't face the disruption of taking alll the sand out to replace them.
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Having sat here a few minutes, I can't think why I pressed "reply" or what I was going to say!. Happens a lot lately.
However - Peter, you will, I hope be pleased to know that your seedlings of Corydalis (henrikii and kuznetsovii so far) are coming though, their third showing. More soon I hope and yesterday there was a first seedling of Iris hypolyti, also yours.
Maggi, I have been given a little seed for you, of Mazus radicans. Robyn Abernethy (OAGG Sec) found a couple of pods on hers. She also gave me some layered bits so if they are of use to your requestee, just say. I'll wait a couple of days before posting the seed.
Oh yes, I remember now. It was to do with some bulbs coming through after extreme cold. I think it's already probably been said. It seems that dormancy is broken by cold and that perpetually warm bulbs don't thrive as well. I'm not sure about this as we in NZ don't really have that extreme cold that you in the north have. We've had a couple of snowfalls this winter and a few frosts but though it felt cold at the time, we didn't have more than --5C where I live and EVERYTHING has come through in abundance. All my potted Galanthus are up, most in bloom and the early Narcissus are nearly finished while crocuses are surrounding me, new ones every day. Likewise there are seedlings sown last year up to Dec, coming through now, Tulipa rosea from Kurt Vickery a special treat for me, and - at last - the first Colchicum luteum from Chris Chadwell. This after the initial germination which in the event turned out to be an Impatiens, all of which died (not bothered by that. Their seeds and those of the Colchicum are identical to the naked eye).
After one of the snowfalls, Susan M found that her Helleborus seeds from Barnhaven have come up like mustard and cress, once the snow was off them.
So while there's nothing up yet from new sowings, what was sown last year but not germinated, is starting and coming though like hairs on Marley's back. Bulbs, that is, little among the herbaceous plants yet.
I think all of this is in the wrong thread somehow. Sorry. Two nice pots of Iris reticulata 'Gordon' are fully out too.