Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Pleione and Orchidaceae => Topic started by: Corrado & Rina on April 26, 2013, 11:12:55 PM
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Dear all,
First post to the forum.
We have a cypripedium franchetii, in a pot. I bought it from Laneside. It seems to have survived the winter. It is grown in inorganic compost, the original Laneside.
1) Shall I fertilise it? What with?
2) Apparently franchetii is less hardy than others .... is that true?
3) Is it already time to remove winter protection? We had frost yesterday night, and the buds are coming out of the cover of shredded paper I put on top.
4) Do you know where to find cultivation notes specific for the franchetii?
Thanks in advance.
Best,
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There is a wealth of discussions about all aspects of cyp culture in this section - just go through the threads.
There is a search function which you can use to look for franchetti specifically.
The general recommendation is to feed cyp species at a quarter of full rate.
You can use any of the generally available plant fertilizers - miracle gro, phostrogen etc.
Start to feed the plants as soon as you can see any signs of growth.
At this tricky time of year I use some fleece on the plants when frost is forecast.
The leaves would be fine but the buds could be damaged.
David
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Thanks a lot David.
I have done some thorough research on cultivation notes, but all I can find is general for Cypripedium and not much that is specific on franchetii. I feel quite uncomfortable with generic, blanket cultivation notes for an entire genus (I come from growing tropical orchids), when the different plants actually thrive in very different natural conditions ....
I am slightly concerned because franchetii seems to be different in terms of resistance to frost and dormancy: for example, it is explicitly mentioned here http://www.phytesia.com/en/cultivation-how-to-grow-hardy-orchids.php?genre=3&PHPSESSID=57fe966bc7833867780178605b94d03e, (http://www.phytesia.com/en/cultivation-how-to-grow-hardy-orchids.php?genre=3&PHPSESSID=57fe966bc7833867780178605b94d03e,) and , in general, Phytesia seems to know what they are talking about.
Concerning fertilisation, I have found very contrasting advice: some advice says to fertilise abundantly, others to fertilise moderately. I even found advice suggesting to never fertilise cypripedium.
What do you think?
Best,
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This is a good resource: http://www.cypripedium.de/English/know-how-e/know-how-e.html (http://www.cypripedium.de/English/know-how-e/know-how-e.html)
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It might help if you can be specific about where you live. I see a union flag in your details, but the comment about raised beds (in another topic) made me wonder.
I looked at the Phytesia link and although they say that franchetti is less hardy, it does mention -30/ -40 so if you are in the U.K. that's not really an issue.
Also I wonder if franchetti's reputation for being difficult is because until recently many of the species available to buy were wild dug and they're all difficult.
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Thanks Steve,
It is the North East. We have had very unreliable seasons as of late: very wet summers, followed by very variable winters. Wets alternates with very low temperatures (-16C), then warm, then very cold again. Plants are stressed out .... raised bed are not an option really, I prefer to move them to the best place for the winter.
Best,
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Thanks Anthony!
I think that is the old forum of Michael Weinart, is it correct? He helped me with the winter setup, he was very, very helpful!
I would like to collect species specific cultivation notes for all the species I grow (forgive me the tong twister) ....
Best,
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Welcome Corrado e Rina !
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I would not be so concerned about individual requirements for species in the macranthos/tibeticum complex.
If you're growing in Jeff's inorganic mix then they pretty much all need the same things.
As you've already heard, winter hardiness is probably not a problem in the UK.
If you follow the general rules then you'll be OK.
On another point, if you're new to cyps then it would be much easier to learn about their requirements by trying a couple of hybrids.
They're more robust, easier and more forgiving to grow and develop into specimen plants much more quickly.
So they are very good for 'training'.
You may find that starting on species straight away may lead to some disappointments!
Even experienced growers have problems with the species and when you do find success, they can be painfully slow to increase,
Regards,
David
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Thanks David.
My wife and I garden as much for conservation as for enjoyment. We would like to stick with botanic species, artificial hybrids do not really do it for me ..... even if I do understand the craft and the skills.
We started with franchetii to try out the best conditions and because we were blow away by it: it is incredibly beautiful. We had such an appalling winter that the test was good! Jeff was very helpful. After a year the plant seems to be happy, hence I think we can move onto something slightly more complicated.
We would love to stick with the same geographical macro area, so I think we will probably go with other species in the same group and area: we were thinking initially tibeticum, macranthos, smithii, possibly calceolus and flavum. Fargesii is splendid as well.
In other words, we would like to know which ones people recommend among the Eurasian botanical species.
Best,
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I don't think raised beds would be a problem. My Cyp. macranthos survived -18oC in a ceramic pot on a slabbed patio.
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All those you mention apart from fargesii would be fine in pots with similar conditions to the franchetti.
No need for any complicated recipes for growing medium.
Stick with the one you're using if it works for you.
It makes looking after an increased number of pots straight forward.
David
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Just thought - the plant that bridges the gap between species and hybrids is the natural hybrid
between calceolus and macranthos, x ventricosum.
It is immensely vigorous and occurs in a number of colour forms from white through pinks to red and yellow.
This one combines the species aspect with the vigour of the commercial hybrids.
It can be fertilized at full rate and it is well worth growing a number of them.
Micheal Wienert has the normal and pale forms available.
One of these started off 4 years ago with two growths and this year has 17.
Others are around if you search, including a lovely pure white form.
David
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I wonder how Michael got on with the clump I sent him? Started with a single nose with two (different coloured) flowers on it from Ian Christie a dozen or so years ago.
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Reading through Phil Cribb's 'The Genus cypripedium', he says: "I have seen Cypripedium franchetii several times in western and northern Sichuan, growing amongst grasses and small bushes of rhododendron on banks or terraces above fast-flowing rivers at between 2000 and 3000 m elevation...."
The reference to rhododendron may indicate that this species prefers a more acid substrate.
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Thanks to everybody!
1) Anthony: it sounds like macranthos will be one of the first to join. I still have some perplexities about the raised beds in the specific environment .... the garden is not too big, and I am not sure we would be able to control the temperature appropriately.
2) David: thanks for the suggestions. I had read about the existence of x ventricosum, but set it aside. I think I will definitively consider it, in light of what you say. Concerning compost, thanks, it is very helpful. I just have to find the right fertilisation regime now ....
3) Reading through Phil Cribb's 'The Genus cypripedium', he says: "I have seen Cypripedium franchetii several times in western and northern Sichuan, growing amongst grasses and small bushes of rhododendron on banks or terraces above fast-flowing rivers at between 2000 and 3000 m elevation...."
The reference to rhododendron may indicate that this species prefers a more acid substrate.
Thanks this is very useful. I would make the same assumption. Yet, it looks like Cribb is describing an alpine environment: if the Rhododendron he saw, was a relative of R. hirsutum, which is widespread on the alps, it could grow in mildly basic soil! Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any Chinese alpine Rhododendron that grows in the same conditions as R. hirsutum though. If we knew which Rhododendron was seen by Cribb :-) it would be useful. I have found some documentation suggesting ph 7.0, which seems a bit a bit like sitting on the fence .... :-)
Going back to fertilisation, you seems all very experienced, and I am going to take advantage of your kindness again!
1) What liquid fertiliser do you normally use and at what concentration? What NPK?
2) Maren, would you use your 600microS rule also for franchetii and allies? Do you apply any ph correction in case of very hard water?
3) We use horticultural grade Maxicrop Plus Sequestered Iron as tonic for all our potted plants. It provides essential micro nutrients and the sequestered iron compensates the deficiencies that may be caused by the very hard water. We buy it in trade quantities, so we reduce the costs. Do you think it could be helpful for the Cypripedium as well?
Thanks a lot, sorry for all questions!
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I use the normally available white powders as feed like phostrogen or miracle gro.
They don't need the more expensive liquid feeds like Maxicrop.
Later in the season they receive tomato feed to help root growth.
They also receive Epsom salts very occasionally if the foliage looks pale.
The rule of thumb is full rate feed for hybrids (and x ventricosum) and quarter rate for species.
Early in the season I feed every week, as the shoots are growing.
This is when the plants need most of their annual nitrogen as they are making shoots and leaves very quickly. Later on every 2 weeks or when I remember.
It isn't so critical.
The latest book on cyps, from Frosch and Cribb states that you can feed at higher rates (double) early in the season during shoot development, so I'm trying this advice for the first time this year.
I try to use rain water for most of my watering and feeding but if it runs out, as is likely at some point during the year, I use my local hard tap water. I've never seen any harmful effects from using it,
Regards,
David
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Small garden and raised beds would be ideal for cypripediums. I could walk round my garden in 18 seconds and it was mostly raised beds. It kept the plants above the water table. The local substrate was acidic and I used water straight from the tap.
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Hi,
I don't grow C. franchetii, so cannot advise on its culture from experience, and I don't recommend things unless I know for sure. I use my 600microsiemens rule pretty much on everything, including pleiones, which form by far the larger part of things I grow. As we have very hard water in our area, I try to feed only with rainwater, because that gives me more scope for nutrients. If I use tap water for feeding with an automatic dilutor, I use a Peters fertiliser for hard water.
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At the Harrogate Flower Show I met with Jeff from Laneside .... and the inevitable happened: franchetii has two new friends.
1) Cypripedium macranthos album (a white clone)
2) Cypripedium tibeticum
EDROM nursery had Cypripedium bardolphianum W.W.Sm. & Farrer and I asked him if he was willing to part with it: I think he is still laughing now. Ops.
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Good buys!
Both species are straight forward to grow and in time can develop into large multi shoot plants.
Just be careful with macranthos and winter cold. If it is too cold then the buds will abort although shoot growth will be unaffected.
Maren - do you use the 600 microsiemens limit for both species and hybrids?
Regards,
David
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David, I'm convinced I answered this, but maybe I didn't press the send button. The answer is yes, but the amount of food given varies with the type of water I use. If it's tap water (ours is 500 microsiemens), then they get rather less food. This means I have to feed more often, but it's less work, because I can use a dilutor. That's why I prefer to use rainwater (13 microsiemens) when I am feeding, but that's a bit back breaking because then I have to use a watering can (no electricity for a pump, unfortunately).
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Maren,
thanks for the information.
I'm going to play with feed strengths for the species and hybrids this year,
David
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Dear Maren,
Apologies for yet another round of questions:
1) What type of conductivity meter do you use? Do you use a cheap basic meter (<£20.00) or do you need lab grade meter (much more expensive)? In other words, is there some tolerance into the process?
2) What type of dilutor do you use? We are thinking of moving to a dilutor connected to the hose pipes to reduce the back breaking task of watering with watering cans. We have Gardena hose attacks.
3) I do not understand why a dilutor cannot be used in the second case (13mS). Can you elaborate? I was hoping to be able to use it for both low and high concentration fertilisation.
Questions for everybody:
We do not seem to be able to find any information on the average hardness of the water in our area, we assumed the utility companies would have been compelled to publish it. Is that the case?
Thanks a lot.
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Hi Corradoerina,
If you're looking for water quality figures, it is likely to be on your water company's website. I found our local water hardness (and a lot of other stuff) by typing 'water hardness' into the search box on our company's (Northumbrian Water) website homepage, then you can enter your postcode.
You give your location as 'North-east'. If you're also a Northumbrian Water customer, the page link is:
http://www.nwl.co.uk/your-home/your-account/your-area.aspx?returnUrl=http://www.nwl.co.uk/your-home/your-account/in-your-area/water-quality.aspx (http://www.nwl.co.uk/your-home/your-account/your-area.aspx?returnUrl=http://www.nwl.co.uk/your-home/your-account/in-your-area/water-quality.aspx)
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Hi Peter,
Unfortunately, our provider, who-shall-not-be-named, provides the service, but it does not work .... see http://www.yorkshirewater.com/extra-services/in-your-area.aspx (http://www.yorkshirewater.com/extra-services/in-your-area.aspx)
Best,
Corrado
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Two options then:
1. send off an email to them requesting the information, I believe that they do have a duty to provide it. (Your link worked for me when I tried a few random postcodes for people that I know in Yorkshire - but not for every postcode, and it's never heard of Harrogate!)
2. move - the scenery's lovely in Northumberland. ;) ;D ;D
Peter
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The second one is similar to the response I get when I order certain things from Amazon. ???
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I sent an email, we will see .... we accept bets on the likely answer. :-)
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Hi corradoerina,
in answer to your questions:
1) Conductivity meter: I have several, my favourite is Hanna which cost around £70, but they are making cheaper ones now. I'm sure a bit of tolerance is tolerated. ;) ;)
2) Dilutor: mine is an Access AD3, about £100+, the type you can move around (some don't like to be moved).
3) Why can't I use my dilutor with rainwater? because the dilutor is driven by the pressure of mains water. Rainwater is static, it simply sits in its butt and doesn't drive anything. If I wanted to use the dilutor with rainwater, I would have to use an electrical pump to provide the necessary pressure. There is no electricity at the greenhouse. I hope this answers your questions.
Your general question about hardiness: I contacted my local water company and their stats confirm that we are in a hard water area. So does my conductivity meter. ;) ;) ;)
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Thanks Maren, very useful!
I apologise for the question about rainwater, I thought there was some intrinsic problem with rainwater and hose-end diluter. :-D
PS: One week in and still no answer on water quality from our beloved utility company. They must be missing inaction (misspelling intended).
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Hi Maren,
We received answer from our utility company with last available data over the year:
1) Calcium between 93 and 112 mg/L with an average of 102.5
2) PH between 6.99 and 8.05 with average at 7.45
3) Conductivity between 456 and 669 microS/cm with average at 545.94
In other words hard water with alkaline PH. Your conductivity rue does not seem to work, becuse most of the time the water is already above the 500 .... what would you do?
Best,
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Hi,
these values are similar to the ones we get in my area and my conductivity rule works perfectly (for me). I tried to explain this in my post dated 30th April.
The simple options:
1) if your tap water is very hard, use rainwater when feeding.
or
2) use whatever you like and gather your own experiences. ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Maren,
I really apologise. I had overlooked that post!
I am wondering two things (mostly for the sake of arguments)
1) Looking at the quantity of trace elements in our water, I wander if watering from the tap is actually going to provide all the micro nutrients without using a fertiliser .... of course N and P would still be missing ....
2) I wander if using a fertiliser with sequestered iron makes a difference or not .... does anyone have experience of using it on Cypripedium?
Best,
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No need to apologise, it usually takes me a few attempts to understand a new concept.
Question 1, you have already answered it yourself, plants do need N & P.
Question 2: I have not used sequestered iron other than on my blueberries, which require acid conditions. Most cypripediums require alkaline conditions, therefore I would not use it. Instead, I tend to put a little dolomite lime around the stems, they like that. And if the foliage gets too light in summer, I give them Epsom salts as prescribed on the packet.
All these items are available by googling on the web.
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Thanks Maren!
I have started feeding them with Maxcrop Plus Complete Garden Feed (NPK: 5-5-5.)
Now that they are growing strongly I am thinking of feeding at 50%, to then drop to 25% after flowering. I will then move to higher K for the last part of the season in preparation for the next year.
Best,