Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => Flowers and Foliage Now => Topic started by: Matt on March 24, 2013, 04:35:33 PM
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Dear all,
It is the 24th of March...but it really seems that this winter doesn't want to end! I have just flown back from snowy London only to land in grey and windy North East Italy.
This morning, however, a nice surprise was waiting in the garden - the first flowers of a five-year old Paeonia kesrouanensis from JJA seeds (sorry Mr. Hong De-Yuan...I am still convinced that this species is quite different from P. turcica!).
Let' s hope that the sun will come out before the petals fall. Possibly on Wednesday I will be able to post better pics.
Although the plant is still young and the photograph rather dark, I thought that this was a good excuse to start the new Paeonia 2013 topic.
I think that Hans in Majorca should also have something in flower very soon. And what about Hendrik, "the other" Hans and Lukas north of the Alps?
Fingers crossed for Spring to start soon!
Matt
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Very nice first peony :)
Do you have P.mairei, is P.kesrouanensis even earlier than P.mairei?
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Good to see Matt, my peonies are covered by snow.
Leena, in my garden P. mairei opens about the same time as kesrouanensis.
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Hi Matt
Is that its first ever flower - how very exciting. I am trying to germinate some peonies but no success yet
Helen
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Leena, in my garden P. mairei opens about the same time as kesrouanensis.
Thank you Gail. :) I don't have P.kesrouanensis and my P.mairei has not flowered yet (grown from seed).
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I got seeds of Paeonia sp ex China, 50cm, yellow/red from the seed exchange and the first of them is now showing the root after two months in warm and moist vermiculte. :) I'm really happy.
I was wondering if there was a picture of the mother plant somewhere in the forum or if anyone could tell me more about this peony? The seeds were very big, so is it a tree peony?
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Leena, have you got the Seedlist number? I can try to track it down.....
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Thank you Maggi :)
The seedlist number for these seeds was 2791.
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Thank you, Leena- I will see what I can find out- it may take some time!
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I got seeds of Paeonia sp ex China, 50cm, yellow/red from the seed exchange and the first of them is now showing the root after two months in warm and moist vermiculte. :) I'm really happy.
I was wondering if there was a picture of the mother plant somewhere in the forum or if anyone could tell me more about this peony? The seeds were very big, so is it a tree peony?
If the colour of the flowers is red/yellow and the seeds are quite big, the "type" of the mother plant is likely to be a form/hybrid of Paeonia delavayi or Paeonia ludlowii.
However, if you are not 100% sure that your seeds were wild collected (or from cultivated wild plants that were hand pollinated), the "type" of the mother plant (which is also likely to be a hybrid to start with) is not very relevant as your seeds will be themselfes of hybrid origin. The beauty of this "play with hybrids" is the surprise when your plant will finally flower.
If possible, try not to leave the seedlings in the pot for longer than 2 seasons, they grow much better (and faster!) in the soil.
M.
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If the colour of the flowers is red/yellow and the seeds are quite big, the "type" of the mother plant is likely to be a form/hybrid of Paeonia delavayi or Paeonia ludlowii.
Thank you, I was afraid of this.
When I saw it in the seed exchange list, I was excited to get seeds of a peony which is perhaps not very many generations removed from wild collection (as ex China suggests), yellow and low growing (as 50 cm said in the seeds list), but when I saw how big the seeds were, I thought that they must be from a tree peony. Tall tree peonies don't do so well in my garden. I have one P.delavayi and most of the time the stems which are above snow die during winter. I have had it at least for four years now and only saw flowers one year. This winter we have so much snow that it is still all covered up in snow, and I have hopes that it will flowers this year.
Well, it is good that the seeds are germinating already this summer (after a cold period in the fridge), and so then I see what the leaves look like. :)
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At Cambridge Botanic Garden they have the form of P. delavayi known as P. potaninii that is yellow flowered and low growing - it makes a lovely ground cover plant under larger shrubs. In contrast the plant that I bought as Paeonia potaninii ex ACE 1047 is a much more upright shrub and is showing no signs of suckering. It will be interesting to see how yours turn out Leena. The second volume of Hong's Peonies of the World book is really good for showing the diversity of the species in the wild.
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The second volume of Hong's Peonies of the World book is really good for showing the diversity of the species in the wild.
Some available .... http://www.abebooks.co.uk/9781842464588/Peonies-World-II-Polymorphisms-Diversity-1842464582/plp (http://www.abebooks.co.uk/9781842464588/Peonies-World-II-Polymorphisms-Diversity-1842464582/plp)
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At Cambridge Botanic Garden they have the form of P. delavayi known as P. potaninii that is yellow flowered and low growing - it makes a lovely ground cover plant under larger shrubs.
That would be a good plant for me, being low it would have the snow protection.
I hope my seeds turn out like that. :)
I don't have Hong's books (they are quite expensive :-[), and didn't know there were so low growing forms of tree peonies, thank you Gail. :)
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That would be a good plant for me, being low it would have the snow protection.
I hope my seeds turn out like that. :)
I don't have Hong's books (they are quite expensive :-[), and didn't know there were so low growing forms of tree peonies, thank you Gail. :)
Leena,
I would buy a tree peony which is hardy in your climate. Forget all Delavayi, Lutea, Ludlowii, Central Plains & old French (Suffruticosa) hybrids, Northern Germany is already borderline for them. I would go for a good Gansu Mudan (often improperly called Rockii Hybrid). They are perfectly hardy in Berlin, Warsaw, Copenhagen, Oslo, Gothenburg and Stockholm, -20C is not a problem for them.
You can buy them very cheaply in China, but be aware that the Chinese will send you what they want (in the end all are nice though).
You could also contact Will at Phedar Nursery (http://www.phedar.com/catalog/ (http://www.phedar.com/catalog/)) near Manchester UK. I warn you, the man is a bit grumpy at the beginning (but lovely in the end!). He owns and offers the better collection of mostly own roots (not grafted) Gansu Mudan in Europe, and you can buy there from a tiny rooted branch to a big 15 years old mature plant. Will together with a Chinese peony breeder and grower wrote a beautiful book on Gansu Mudan...in my opinion much more "user friendly" (and cheaper!) than the botany treaties by Hong De-Yuan.
http://www.phedar.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=101_116&products_id=252 (http://www.phedar.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=101_116&products_id=252)
An other place where you ca get good Gansu Mudan is the Centro Botanico Moutan near Rome. They buy more or less random plants from China and grow them on in the fields and sell them only when they have flowered.
(http://www.centrobotanicomoutan.it/acquisto_peonie.asp?q=paeonia_rockii&lang=en (http://www.centrobotanicomoutan.it/acquisto_peonie.asp?q=paeonia_rockii&lang=en))
The prices are quite high but the plants are also very big and all on own roots. If you go there when they are in flower (around the 15th of April) you can choose your own plant in the fields and have it shipped in the Autumn.
M.
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Just to confirm what Matt has written - I have one of Will's gansu mudan amongst several other paeonies and it is my favourite.
I should get some more.
It is bone hardy and flowers are just magnificent, huge and really nicely scented.
I bought one that looks like rockii and is called something like bin sha xue lian.
The only thing that mine needs protection from is strong winds - they can break the new growths,
Regards,
David
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I've found a photo of the flower....
I love it,
David
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Lovely David. Here's mine - grown from Hardy Plant Society seed.
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I would buy a tree peony which is hardy in your climate. Forget all Delavayi, Lutea, Ludlowii, Central Plains & old French (Suffruticosa) hybrids, Northern Germany is already borderline for them. I would go for a good Gansu Mudan (often improperly called Rockii Hybrid). They are perfectly hardy in Berlin, Warsaw, Copenhagen, Oslo, Gothenburg and Stockholm, -20C is not a problem for them.
You could also contact Will at Phedar Nursery
Thank you Matt, you are right.
Most tree peonies don't do well in our climate, and still some shops here sell them, and even plants sold here as P.rockii can turn out to be something else. I like herbaceous peonies more, but it is always tempting to try to grow anything that has a name peony. :-\
Thank you very much for the link to Phedar Nursery, I saw that they also sell seeds, and I think I will go for them. I like to grow plants from seeds, the outcome is a surprise, but not so much when they are from a good source. And I noticed that there are also species Hellebore seeds. :)
I have a two year old seedling of P.rockii, I bought the seeds from Gothenburg Botanical garden, and I hope it is hardy also here. (I don't know if Gothenburg P.rockii is Gansu Mudan or something else)
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The flowers of Monocotman's and Gail's peonies are just so beautiful.
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I got seeds of Paeonia sp ex China, 50cm, yellow/red from the seed exchange and the first of them is now showing the root after two months in warm and moist vermiculte. :) I'm really happy.
I was wondering if there was a picture of the mother plant somewhere in the forum or if anyone could tell me more about this peony? The seeds were very big, so is it a tree peony?
Still working on tracking the donor, Leena. Stuart Pawley tells me he thought the seeds were not large enough for a tree paeony and he was happy with the stated 50cm description.
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Hi there,
I would like my Peony would be as far as yours Matt. But as well as all over Europe in Switzerland the wheather is as ugly as everywhere. I am looking foreward to warm tempretures and Peony flowers.
About Gansu Mudan, last winter all my suffruticosa and ludlowii died back to the ground completely. there were no flowers last year with three weeks of -20° C . But the gansu Mudan's flowered mostly freely without any damage! Only one rockii-suffruticosa Hybrid was affected by the hard frost. The others were as beautyful as ever. Very recommanded to plant one of These treasures.
Keep on hoping for Peony wheather.
Lukas
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Matt - do you know Robert Pardo in France? I met him many years ago at a Plant Show in St. Malo and he grew a wonderful range of peonies, many species and many from China that he lined out in his nursery. I know he visited Will McLewin and exchanged plants, and he gave me the true P. mairei which has done well in the garden. A generous person.
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I think that Hans in Majorca should also have something in flower very soon.
;D - sorry Matt, this year they failed to flower in my garden, perhaps because of the drought last summer?
Today I visited a population of Paeonia cambessedesii in the mountains, I remembered every site of the single plants but I did not remember better to go there with professional climbing equipment (as the few people I saw nearby ::)).
This species is very rare in Mallorca and normaly there grow only single or very few specimens at the locations - the visited one has a better number of plants (already posted somewhere pics from there a few years ago), but it is hardly accessible. The first plant I found was over - then I only found plants with buds - but finally I had good luck.
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Lovely pictures Hans and what a treat to see a wild population of this lovely species.
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Wonderful to see Hans. Thank you.
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- but finally I had good luck.
very very lovely, Hans :D
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Hi Hans
What a shame! Last year it was the cutworm...this year the drought! Yes, the species that like it slightly more moist in summer, like P. mlokosewitchii, have only very few buds also in my garden. We had 8 weeks with no rain in July & August...which is unusual for NE Italy...Mallorca mus have been a desert!
Thank you for the P. cambessedesii pics! Plants in their natural habitat tell more than a gardening book.
It is clear that also this heat loving species likes the roots to be sheltered from the heat by rocks. What is the exposition of the slope where they grow? Definitely not south I think!
M.
;D - sorry Matt, this year they failed to flower in my garden, perhaps because of the drought last summer?
Today I visited a population of Paeonia cambessedesii in the mountains, I remembered every site of the single plants but I did not remember better to go there with professional climbing equipment (as the few people I saw nearby ::)).
This species is very rare in Mallorca and normaly there grow only single or very few specimens at the locations - the visited one has a better number of plants (already posted somewhere pics from there a few years ago), but it is hardly accessible. The first plant I found was over - then I only found plants with buds - but finally I had good luck.
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Matt - do you know Robert Pardo in France? I met him many years ago at a Plant Show in St. Malo and he grew a wonderful range of peonies, many species and many from China that he lined out in his nursery. I know he visited Will McLewin and exchanged plants, and he gave me the true P. mairei which has done well in the garden. A generous person.
Hi Tim
You are right monsieur Pardo is a very kind and nice man and owns and sells a good Gansu Mudan collectio at his nursery La Pivoine Bleue in the SW of France. I think he deals with the same Chinese grower - Chen Dezhong of Peace Peony Nursery in Lanzhou - who sells plants to Will. Monsieur Pardo always goes with lots of potted peonies in flower to Journees des Plantes a Courson near Paris (17-19 May this year) that is one of the best flower show/market in Europe.
http://pivoine.bleue.free.fr/ (http://pivoine.bleue.free.fr/)
http://www.domaine-de-courson.fr/ (http://www.domaine-de-courson.fr/)
Matt
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Thanks Matt - it's nice to hear of him again. I have never been to Courson, but we met at a much smaller Show organised by Jean Pierre Jolivot just outside St. Malo and there were some great nurseries there, as well as a very enjoyable feel to the event. Courson would be well worth a visit.
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Well after those great pictures Gansu Mudan is now on my wanted list ;D
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Thank you for the P. cambessedesii pics! Plants in their natural habitat tell more than a gardening book.
It is clear that also this heat loving species likes the roots to be sheltered from the heat by rocks. What is the exposition of the slope where they grow? Definitely not south I think!
They grow only on shady northfacing slopes next to larger rocks, I have found this species in 50 up to perhaps 1250m - often together with Cyclamen balearicum (see pic.3), Crocus cambessedesii and Arum pictum.
As my garden is southfacing all this species are not easy to grow here.
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They grow only on shady northfacing slopes next to larger rocks, I have found this species in 50 up to perhaps 1250m - often together with Cyclamen balearicum (see pic.3), Crocus cambessedesii and Arum pictum.
As my garden is southfacing all this species are not easy to grow here.
Thx Hans! I completely agree...In my garden in NE Italy herbaceous Paeonia species grow well only in shade under deciduous trees or in half shade (east facing - morning sun only) under evergreen trees. P. clusii is the only one that can take full sun.
From what I remember (waiting for confirmation...) Lukas in Switzerland, Hans in SW Germany and Hendrik in Belgium also grow them with some shelter from the sun.
Paeonia species grow in full sun only on English gardening books! LOL (Gail...what is your opinion?)
Matt
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Paeonia species grow in full sun only on English gardening books! LOL (Gail...what is your opinion?)
Matt
Well, depends on the species and the garden. There is a wonderful plant of P. emodi in full sun on the rock garden at Cambridge Botanic Garden but for many of us the words 'English gardens' and 'full sun' never seem to go together....
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Hi there,
in my garden I grow some species in full sun. But they Show quiet fast senescences on the leaves.
Species I would only grow in dappled shade are qiui, jishanensis, mairei, anomala, veitchii and obovata. the others can take much sun, but the leaves are never looking that good. But growing rate is good. But the best planting site is as matt said close to decidous trees or part time sun sahded by the house. The woody species even more than the herbaceous species.
Lukas
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The only peonies I grow in half shade are P.obovata ja P.daurica ssp mlokosewitchii, but here P.veitchii and P.anomala do well in full sun. Here also I have to grow P.officinalis forms in full sun, and in dry soil, otherwise they get root diseases easily. Of course we don't get as hot sun here as in southern Europe.
Now I have one year old seedlings of P.mairei, P.intermedia (seeds from Gothenburg Botanical garden) and P.daurica ssp macrophylla and I'm wondering where to plant them. P.intermedia perhaps in full sun in dry and the other two in half shade?
P.daurica, white, from ex Sicily (seed exchange this winter) seeds are starting to show roots :), perhaps they would like it in half shade also when they are grown?
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I forgot to write that I have seedlings from P.x chameleon (how should these seedlings be called, because they are not P x chameleon any more, P.daurica sp?) and at first grew them in full sun, but even in last summer which was not very sunny, their leaves did not like it there so I moved them to half shade last autumn.
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I noted those beautiful shoots of Paeonia species nova from Iran with bright yellow flowers. They are 3 years old seedlings.
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Interesting that you should post that image today Janis. At yesterday's South West AGS Show a chap came into the member's plant sale with a few pots in a box that he asked to be put on the sales table in case anyone was interested in them for free. Amongst them were two Paeonia seedlings labelled as follows:-
"Paeonia Sp. Nova Iran, Talysh, 2000m, JJA 19199" I put £5 in the till and brought one pot home with me. With the pots was a coloured photograph of a yellowish Paeony which one chap on the plant stall said might be Molly the Witch!
Last night I had a look through the Jim Archibald papers on the SRGC Main Site and couldn't find any reference to Talysh, Iran and I also looked quickly through the JJA Seed Lists and could not find a reference to "19199" and looked to Maggi to see if she might be able to point me in the right direction. Maggi came up with the following:-
747.961 : #PAEONIA TOMENTOSA Azerbaijan. (A very little-known species. Plants from seed collected in the Iranian Talysh range, which runs from SE Azerbaijan on into Iran, in the 1960's (as P. wittmanniana) were compact with white flowers & most distinct. We saw yellow-flowered ones in another Iranian Talysh locality recently. This seed is from up towards Armenia, in the main body of the Caucasus, in NE Azerbaijan. Our own seedlings are as yet unflowered.)
For the sake of the record I'll try to post an image of my plant tomorrow although it looks no different to the images Janis has posted.
Did you collect the seed from which your plants were grown Janis?
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I cannot find anything approximating to the number 19199 so my thought about David's new plant is that the number is a date not a collection number and that the ORIGINAL seed from JJA would have been sown in 1999.
His plant will be from a later sowing but when seed is passed on it is
not unknown for a sowing date to be confused with a collection number and
carried on in error to the subsequent plants. Never underestimate the
capacity of information to become garbled !
The comment in the notes for 747.961 in the Archibald lists suggest that there is are unknown yellows ( possibly P. tomentosa) that Jim mentions and so perhaps mystery plant may be one of those. ???
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Maggi - I thought I remembered a remarkable peony that Jim mentioned with strong yellow flowers, and a couple of plants were auctioned at Nottingham I think. It is referred to in Jenny's last seedlist in 2011 (and curses I didn't order any!) under the number 19199: Paeonia sp. nov. - apparently it 'rendered Jim absolutely speechless'!
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Super, Tim, you've come up trumps. Well done! I had only searched the main list, and had not found that. It is on page 25 of the 2011 list :
http://files.srgc.net/archibald/seedlists/JJA_seeds/JJA_seeds_2011_January.pdf (http://files.srgc.net/archibald/seedlists/JJA_seeds/JJA_seeds_2011_January.pdf)
So much for my theory! :P
This is MUCH better!!
Edit - 2015 :
This is a copy from Geir Moen of a very informative article in AGS bulletin in 2014 by Henrik Zetterlund and Janis Ruksans
https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpionisten.se%2Fonewebmedia%2FPaeonia%2520wendelboi.pdf (https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpionisten.se%2Fonewebmedia%2FPaeonia%2520wendelboi.pdf)
This photo from the wild is by forumist Frederic Depalle from NW Iran - who wrote in facebook :" P. wendelboi - it grows in the mountains, high elevation and very dry in summer. This one on a very steep slope. "
[attachimg=1]
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How interesting!
And what peony seeds in the old list, are they anywhere at all for sale any more?
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I saw this Paeonia in a couple of gardens near Gothenburg when I was on the AGS trip last year. They were calling it Paeonia iranica. Is this the one you are growing, Janis?
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RE: yellow peony from Iran.
On the Autumn 2010 JJ Archibald seed catalog there are TWO species from Iran: JJA 17180 PAEONIA SP. NOV. and JJA 19199 PAEONIA SP. NOV....and this causes great confusion in my opinion.
To follow is my "interpretation", but first please do have a look at the following article via this link:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/monthfeature/march2005/content.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/monthfeature/march2005/content.html)
You have to scroll down to the middle of the article, where two peony species on the Elburz mountains (Gilan area) around the pass west to Asalem are shown. They are very different.
The YELLOW PEONY (P. iranica, P.persica or P. wendelboi, similar to molkosewitschii, shorter and more glaucous/coriaceous, but VERY far away from the classical location near Lagodekhi next to the border between N Azerbaijan & E Georgia) is probably the same as in JJA 19199, growing on the warm and dry side (in rain shade) of the pass and must be the one Janis, David and Roma talk about.
The WHITE PEONY (it is in fact P. tomentosa also growing on the Talish Mountains of S Azerbaijan & N Iran) is probably the same as in JJA 17180 - the one growing on the humid and wooded side of the pass.
More images of P. iranica (the YELLOW one):
http://staudeklubben-vestfold.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/paeonia-mlokosewitschi-var-wendelboi.html (http://staudeklubben-vestfold.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/paeonia-mlokosewitschi-var-wendelboi.html)
More images of P. tomentosa (the WHITE one) can be seen in these pics by Marijn van den Brink:
http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/search/?searchWordsShort=paeonia&searchType=InAlbum&AlbumID=12517481&x=0&y=0 (http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/search/?searchWordsShort=paeonia&searchType=InAlbum&AlbumID=12517481&x=0&y=0)
http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/Flora-and-Fauna/Asia/Iran-Elburz-mountains/10581644_xzNSgT/63/735321687_pU6pZ# (http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/Flora-and-Fauna/Asia/Iran-Elburz-mountains/10581644_xzNSgT/63/735321687_pU6pZ#)!i=735321405&k=GcKQn6c
and here again:
http://www.jansalpines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=20029 (http://www.jansalpines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=20029)
Matt
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Paeonia corsica in flower today in my garden (together with Tulipa clusiana).
It is the first flower of a 5 years old plant from seeds collected on Mt. Cagna in Corsica.
Matt
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Interesting that you should post that image today Janis. At yesterday's South West AGS Show a chap came into the member's plant sale with a few pots in a box that he asked to be put on the sales table in case anyone was interested in them for free. Amongst them were two Paeonia seedlings labelled as follows:-
"Paeonia Sp. Nova Iran, Talysh, 2000m, JJA 19199" I put £5 in the till and brought one pot home with me. With the pots was a coloured photograph of a yellowish Paeony which one chap on the plant stall said might be Molly the Witch!
Last night I had a look through the Jim Archibald papers on the SRGC Main Site and couldn't find any reference to Talysh, Iran and I also looked quickly through the JJA Seed Lists and could not find a reference to "19199" and looked to Maggi to see if she might be able to point me in the right direction. Maggi came up with the following:-
747.961 : #PAEONIA TOMENTOSA Azerbaijan. (A very little-known species. Plants from seed collected in the Iranian Talysh range, which runs from SE Azerbaijan on into Iran, in the 1960's (as P. wittmanniana) were compact with white flowers & most distinct. We saw yellow-flowered ones in another Iranian Talysh locality recently. This seed is from up towards Armenia, in the main body of the Caucasus, in NE Azerbaijan. Our own seedlings are as yet unflowered.)
For the sake of the record I'll try to post an image of my plant tomorrow although it looks no different to the images Janis has posted.
Did you collect the seed from which your plants were grown Janis?
David you lucky chap. I got a few seeds from this list JJA . 19199 Paeonia sp nova and have just potted up the resulting seedlings. Jim made it sound so nice that I couldn't resist ;)
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Matt - thank you so much for that information about the Iranian peonies and David Millward's fascinating article. All a lot clearer now! Some wonderful pictures in nature.
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Matt - thank you so much for that information about the Iranian peonies and David Millward's fascinating article. All a lot clearer now! Some wonderful pictures in nature.
I agree, thank you! :)
The foliage of P.tomentosa looks interesting compared to "normal" P.wittmanniana.
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Thanks to Maggi, Matt and Tim for getting to the bottom of this one, what a lovely place to be this Forum is.
Ian, I now know where to come if I loose mine ;D
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Paeonia coriacea in flower today in my garden (thx dad for the pics).
It is the first flower of a 6 years old plant from seeds collected on the Atlas Mountains in Morocco by Christine Skelmersdale.
Matt
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Paeonia tenuifolia subsp. lithophila
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Paeonia emodi
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Arnold has beaten me to it - Paeonia tenuifolia is probably my favourite of all species because of its unique foliage, and is extraordinary when it first comes through the ground. This is a particularly compact form in our garden (I think originating from seed from Jelitto?). It would be interesting to compare this with other forms when it is fully developed - it never sets seed as well as other peonies, but we did get a few seed last year and it would be good to get a small colony of plants going.
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Are you sure they're not sea anemones, Tim?
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Paeonia tenuifolia subsp. lithophila
Hi Arnold
Is Paeonia tenuifolia subsp. lithophila the one that grows taller and sturdier than the "normal" species?
Where did you get your P. emodi from? Here in Europe it seems very difficult to get the true species...many nurseries sell here the Early-Late Windflower hybrids as P. emodi. I am still looking for the true species!
The huge plant at Kew in the Order Beds labelled as P. emodi is in fact one of the Windflower (it comes from Stern's garden at Highdown)...and I suspect that the big plant in Cambridge BG is also from Highdown (Gail...have you got pics of it?).
The plants at Kew in the south "Asia" end of the Rock Garden should be the true species and so should be the plant in Berlin-Dahlem BG (shown in the attached pic).
The main feature of true P. emodi is the single carpel.
M.
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The huge plant at Kew in the Order Beds labelled as P. emodi is in fact one of the Windflower (it comes from Stern's garden at Highdown)...and I suspect that the big plant in Cambridge BG is also from Highdown (Gail...have you got pics of it?).
M.
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg195278#msg195278 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg195278#msg195278)
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Great Maggi..thx a lot!
The leaves of the Cambridge plant seem OK...may be Gail has got a better detail of the flowers.
M.
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Matt:
The Paeonia tenuifolis subsp. lithofilia came from the now closed Seneca Hills Perennial Nursery located in New York State. It was run by Ellen Hornig.
I've had it in the ground for at leave five years and this is the first flower.
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The main feature of true P. emodi is the single carpel.
That is good to know. :)
Berlin P.emody is a beautiful plant!
I have P.emodi which I hope will flower for the first time this year (only yesterday the snow melted from that bed), they were sown 2007 from seeds I bought from Burkhardt from Germany, but I think they were seeds from his garden (not wild collected), so there is always a possibility of them not coming true.
I have also 'Early Windflower', planted last autumn (so I don't know if it will flower yet this year) to compare.
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After a long, long winter, here in my Belgium garden the first paeony:
P. coriacea ssp. maroccana, grown from Archibald seeds.
Herewith the original text from his catalogue:
PAEONIA CORIACEA var. MAROCCANA (P.c. var. atlantica): Morocco. No further data. Ex a M. Salmon coll. A spectacular feature of the cedar-forest of the Middle Atlas mountains. Smooth foliage & large rose-pink flowers. Not always easy outside in the UK. Absolutely temperature hardy but seems to miss the cold winters & warm, dry summers.
Origin: 746.409 – JJA SEEDS 2008
Indeed, absolutely hardy, but during summer protected by glasses against to much rain (bulb frame cultivation).
Enjoy!
Hendrik
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Beautiful paeony - well worth the effort to give protection against summer wet ( a problem we know too well here in Aberdeen!
I will copy your photo to the Archibald archive section 8)
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Great mature plant Hendrik all the features of true P. coriacea....you are a fantastic grower!...and yes with approx. 2 weeks delay compared to a "normal" season.
My plant is also from Morocco but apparently is should be called Paeonia coriacea only...without any subspecies specification. I know that you copied the name given by the Archibalds (the Ueber Gurus!)...but it seems that "ssp. maroccana" is redundant as the plants in Spain are the same as the plants in Morocco. It also seems that "ssp. atlantica" (as in Stern "Study of the Genus Paeonia" 1946) is actually wrong for the Moroccan plants as Stern was describing under this name the plants growing in Algeria with leaflets bigger than the Spanish & Moroccan plants and pubescent underneath (main difference!). Stern' s Paeonia coriacea ssp. atlantica has now a species status that is Paeonia algerensis.
Swiss Lukas posted on this forum very interesting pics of it in 2011. His plant is a division from the peony garden at Waedenswil Hochschule...no idea where they got the seeds from...do you know anything about it Lukas?
...sorry Maggi...how do I copy a link of a single post?
Paeonia 2011 topic:
March 27, 2011 http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg194278#msg194278 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg194278#msg194278)
April 20, 2011 http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg198231#msg198231 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg198231#msg198231)
April 21, 2011 http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg198366#msg198366 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg198366#msg198366)
M.
Edit by maggi : I have added the links to the individual posts mentioned above.
Two ways to do this: ONE- right click on the subject line above the desired post to copy link location to paste in your post or TWO left click on the subject line and then copy the url from the address line in your browser......
Example: OE:
Re: Paeonia 2011 Right click here to copy link location to paste in your post
« Reply #107 on: April 21, 2011, 06:46:42 PM »
OR TWO:
Re: Paeonia 2011 - Left click here to see link in browser address bar
« Reply #107 on: April 21, 2011, 06:46:42 PM »
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg198366#msg198366 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg198366#msg198366)
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Hi Matt, see the edits I have made to your post above...... :)
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Paeonia mlokowitschii is starting. This peony is beautiful at all times, even when the foliage is just developing.
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Great mature plant Hendrik all the features of true P. coriacea....you are a fantastic grower!...and yes with approx. 2 weeks delay compared to a "normal" season.
My plant is also from Morocco but apparently is should be called Paeonia coriacea only...without any subspecies specification. I know that you copied the name given by the Archibalds (the Ueber Gurus!)...but it seems that "ssp. maroccana" is redundant as the plants in Spain are the same as the plants in Morocco. It also seems that "ssp. atlantica" (as in Stern "Study of the Genus Paeonia" 1946) is actually wrong for the Moroccan plants as Stern was describing under this name the plants growing in Algeria with leaflets bigger than the Spanish & Moroccan plants and pubescent underneath (main difference!). Stern' s Paeonia coriacea ssp. atlantica has now a species status that is Paeonia algerensis.
Swiss Lukas posted on this forum very interesting pics of it in 2011. His plant is a division from the peony garden at Waedenswil Hochschule...no idea where they got the seeds from...do you know anything about it Lukas?
...sorry Maggi...how do I copy a link of a single post?
Paeonia 2011 topic:
March 27, 2011 http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg194278#msg194278 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg194278#msg194278)
April 20, 2011 http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg198231#msg198231 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg198231#msg198231)
April 21, 2011 http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg198366#msg198366 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg198366#msg198366)
M.
Edit by maggi : I have added the links to the individual posts mentioned above.
Two ways to do this: ONE- right click on the subject line above the desired post to copy link location to paste in your post or TWO left click on the subject line and then copy the url from the address line in your browser......
Example: OE:
Re: Paeonia 2011 Right click here to copy link location to paste in your post
« Reply #107 on: April 21, 2011, 06:46:42 PM »
OR TWO:
Re: Paeonia 2011 - Left click here to see link in browser address bar
« Reply #107 on: April 21, 2011, 06:46:42 PM »
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg198366#msg198366 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6964.msg198366#msg198366)
Thank you Matt.
It's indeed a very nice plant; I think I'm not a bad grower (after 45 years of plant cultivation...), but you can never achieve nice peonies on sandy soils; I'm happy to have here a good, fertile sandy loam...that's helps a lot!
I agree completely with your remarks about the name; ssp. marrocano isn't valid. I remember me the P. algerensis from Swiss Lukas; a very desirable species that I lack in my collection; I know nobody who can offer it, even seeds are unobtainable; probably I must go one day to Algeria!
Within a few days I will post pictures of another, much smaller P. coriacea (with bluish leaves); unfortunately I don't remember the origin.
Best wishes
Hendrik.
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Paeonia mlokowitschii is starting. This peony is beautiful at all times, even when the foliage is just developing.
I agree completely with you Astragalus!
A good yellow mloko is a wonderful sight...
Hendrik
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A good yellow mloko is a wonderful sight...
Hendrik
Its flowers should last a little bit longer! With me the flowers last about a week which in my opinion is too short.
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Here comes my first peony of the year, which I bought as Paeonia russoi var. reverchonii, which is now - according to Hong De-Yuan - P. corsica, though P. morisii might be the better name ... ::) ???
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I've been away in Manchester for a week and a lot seems to have been happening on the forum while my back was turned. Some lovely peonies (and the tulips Matt!).
Where did you get your P. emodi from? Here in Europe it seems very difficult to get the true species...many nurseries sell here the Early-Late Windflower hybrids as P. emodi. I am still looking for the true species!
The huge plant at Kew in the Order Beds labelled as P. emodi is in fact one of the Windflower (it comes from Stern's garden at Highdown)...and I suspect that the big plant in Cambridge BG is also from Highdown (Gail...have you got pics of it?).
The plants at Kew in the south "Asia" end of the Rock Garden should be the true species and so should be the plant in Berlin-Dahlem BG (shown in the attached pic).
The main feature of true P. emodi is the single carpel.
M.
Thanks Maggi for finding the link to the Cambridge plant.
I'm not sure you can ever say that carpel number is ever 100% reliable as a feature, individual plants do vary from year to year.
I have true emodi from a Chris Chadwell collection (may be big enough to split this year) and a ? early/late windflower from Paul Christian.
I'll post some pictures as they come into flower.
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I have also an early windflower and a late windflower (both buyed as P.emodii). Now I've got a right plant, two years old, I hope, it will be in flower next year ;)
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Matt wrote earlier that
>>The main feature of true P. emodi is the single carpel.<<
Attached is a photo of what we grow as P. emodi. Mclewen seed from 15 years ago
Does its carpel pass the test or do I need to take the flower apart?
-Rob
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Well, I see just one carpel ... If this is not an exception and the other flowers do also produce just one it should be true P. emodi. Will McLewin is always a very reliable source if you got it from him.
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Trichiotinus (Hairy Flower Scarab)
"hairy flower scarab" is just a great name, isn't it?
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Matt wrote earlier that
>>The main feature of true P. emodi is the single carpel.<<
Attached is a photo of what we grow as P. emodi. Mclewen seed from 15 years ago
Does its carpel pass the test or do I need to take the flower apart?
-Rob
Hi Rob
If all flowers on your plant are like the one in the pic...It should be right!
However if you got it from Will - as Thomas says - it is likely the plant is true to name.
M.
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Talking about misleading hybrids...this is a plant i bought more than 10 years ago as Paeonia mascula hellenica from Rareplants. I think it is a Mloko hybrid...one of the so called P. x chameleon. The flower itself could be almost morphologically true in its "chameleonic disguise" but the leaves - with round end rather than pointy - belong to the daurica complex rather than to the mascula complex.
However a beautiful and easy to grow plant...the flowers are not last longing though...3-4 days max.
Matt
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I was very pleased that a Paeonia ostii that I was given by Matt was making good growth this year - that was before we had some very strong, gusting, swirling winds coupled with a bit of frost which have been quite damagingand made the young growth look pretty sorry for itself. :'(
It is not completely ruined, but it will not be as glorious as I hoped this year after growing well last year. These winds have been a real nuisance - and this damage had occurred in our back garden which is usually well protected from the worst of the wind. :(
And I won't even begin on my disappointments over the years with P. tenuifolia......... :'( :'(
The photos from hose of you with beautiful, flourishing plants is an inspiration, Thank you!
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Absolutely wonderful, your dubious white peony, Matt. And obviously thriving ...
I am very sorry for your P. ostii, Maggi. Fortunately wind is no problem here in my very sheltered garden, but I never suceeded with P. tenuifolia as well ... too much competition I think, due to my matrix planting.
Some peony shoots:
Paeonia ostii 'Feng Dan Bai'
Paeonia officinalis
Paeonia 'Garden Peace'
Paeonia obovata
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Thomas, your photos of the new growth shows how lovely the emerging foliage is.
I think overcrowding may be the cause of some of my problems too.
Our back garden is, for the most part, very sheltered - but recent winds have been exceptionally swirling and have reached all sorts of unlikely places.
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Matt, very nice peony anyway. Nice growth habit and flowers seem quite big and open. :)
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Talking about misleading hybrids...this is a plant i bought more than 10 years ago as Paeonia mascula hellenica from Rareplants. I think it is a Mloko hybrid...one of the so called P. x chameleon. The flower itself could be almost morphologically true in its "chameleonic disguise" but the leaves - with round end rather than pointy - belong to the daurica complex rather than to the mascula complex.
However a beautiful and easy to grow plant...the flowers are not last longing though...3-4 days max.
Matt
Impressive clump.
Probably the form from Sicilië? (flavescens)
Hendrik
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Impressive clump.
Probably the form from Sicilië? (flavescens)
Hendrik
Attached two images of true P. flavescens - wild collected - from Bosco di Ficuzza near Palermo. The flowers on the "early" of my two clones (shown below) are strangely smaller than usual this year. The plant as a whole is however very different from the white P. x chameleon - the leaves especially.
Thomas...how sheltered is your garden? Your Euphorbia characias is huge!
Matteo
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Paeonia rockii subsp. rockii (D.Y. Hong, 2010) - also called Paeonia rockii subsp. linyanshanii (Hong Tao & G.L. Osti, 1994) - from Tianshui (Gansu - China). Note the mostly entire & lanceolate leaflets and "all white" internal parts of the flower.
Paeonia ostii & dad :-)
M.
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Spectacular! No wonder your Father looks so pleased.
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Wonderful plants Matt!
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Two interesting hybrids:
P. rockii x P. ostii (with leaflets similar to P. ostii and "all red" internal parts of the flower)
P. rockii x P. decomposita (with leaflets very similar to P. decomposita and flowers intermediate between the two species)
M.
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Wonderful plants, Matteo! Great to see true P. flavescens/mascula subsp. russoi !
My garden is very sheltered and we have a wine growing climate here. And the place for Euphorbia characias and Paeonia corsica is the most sheltered of the garden.
Today the second peony opend here: Paeonia mascula subsp. masula, from Will McLewin:
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A nice clump of Paeonia clusii seedlings now 8 years old.
This is the only species that in my garden grows well in full sun.
M.
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Your planting of P. clusii is striking, Matt. Unfortunately I never succeeded with this species.
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Fantastic peonies Matt!
You have really the right climate for the southern species...
I can grow them too, but never in such profusion.
Last year I lost my plant of P. parnassica, but from the roots emerge now 7 to 8 shoots, some more than 30 cm from the original plant!!!
Hendrik
P.S. I like especially the picture with your father...
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Thank you all for the nice comments...by the way...dad is also very proud! I am now looking forward to seeing images of your plants!
Yes - I have the climate on my side...this makes growing southern species much easier for me and the fact that I can grow them outside in the garden also helps a lot. Peonies don't to well "under glass" or in a pot.
However - for the same climatic reasons - I can not grow any species of the anomala/obovata complex...it is too hot and dry in summer.
Thomas - in my experience with difficoult species like P. clusii - the secret is to start with small seedlings (max 3 years old) or with small divisions with young roots. Big plants/divisions are not very reactive and don't establish well (and they are also very expensive!). Even better it is to start with seeds that I now put directly in to the soil in a nursery bed - outside in the garden - rather than in a pot. In this way I avoid the traumatic "pot to soil" transplant. The rest is really a matter of patience and observation.
Hendrik - GREAT NEWS!!!! P. parnassica is somehow similar to P. arietina - P. officinalis - P. peregrina and P. tenuifolia as all those species are able to "rebuild" buds from roots that have lost the main crown. Good luck with the new plants!
M.
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P.clusii looks wonderful. :)
I have admired the color of P.parnassica for a long time, but thought that it may be too tender to grow successfully here (not that I have found it's seeds anywhere), P.obovata and such grow well in my garden.
My peonies are only coming up now, it will still be a month before the first ones flower (and many are still too young to flower).
This is white P.mollis which I got last autumn. Even the shoot looks pale compared to ordinary P.mollis which has red new shoots. I don't know the taxonomy of P.mollis, but it is different from other forms of P.officinalis which I have, and the red/pink one sets seeds each year and the seedlings come true. This white flowering form appeared in my friends garden, and she doesn't have any other peonies flowering at the same time, so it is a mystery what it is, but it's leaves and flowers are like P.mollis, only white.
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Paeonia ostii & dad :-)
oh wow :o the ostii !!
my little ostii shows two buds this year, but I am afraid I am to old for a picture like this with your dad and the ostii ;D
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The Peony Group of the Hardy Plant Society met at Spetchley Park near Worcester for our AGM/garden visit today. In a normal year there would be a wealth of peony species flowers to admire at this time but as it is such a late season we could only admire foliage/buds. However if you are in the area within the next few weeks it would be well worth a trip as they have a huge collection of peonies.
Even without the peony flowers it was a fascinating garden, crammed with interesting plants including lots of narcissus cultivars old and new - many of which came from the garden of Ellen Willmott.
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My first peony this year is P. mairei but P. mascula is not far behind and should be open tomorrow.
P. tenuifolia 'Rosea' is looking promising with several flower buds but is lovely even in leaf...
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Flower closing at end of day.
Paeonia tenuifolia ssp. lithophila
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It's so nice to see peony flowers when my own are still small. :)
P.mairei is something I had wanted for some time, and now I have four one year old seedlings and one which germinated this spring, which seem to do well. :) These seeds came from Gothenburg Botanical garden and the first ones are supposed to be lighter pink and the other one darker pink, so it will be interesting to see what color flowers they will have in a few years.
What peony is 'Jenny'? P.officinalis?
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What peony is 'Jenny'?
'Jenny' came from 'The Plantsmen' nursery of Eric Smith and Jim Archibald. In the Spring 2010 newsletter of the HPS Peony Group Judy Templar reported that she asked Jim about it and he thought that it had been raised from seed sent to them by Vera Frazer Mackie who gardened beside Belfast Lough in Northern Ireland. He thought the seed was labelled as from a wittmanniana hybrid but that Jenny looked more as if it had some influence of P. obovata or even P. cambessedesii.
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I saw this Paeonia in a couple of gardens near Gothenburg when I was on the AGS trip last year. They were calling it Paeonia iranica. Is this the one you are growing, Janis?
I only now checked Paeonia entry and as looking on "new" - first opened this discussion.
Yes, this yellow paeonia named "P. iranica" in Gothenburg is the same. There are two nice paeonias growing wild in Iran in not very long distance - the white one is tall (medium) growing in half-shaded position. I'm not Paeonia specialist, so I leave identification to others. I have several seedlings of it, but they still didn't bloom with me.
The yellow one is very different from P. lagodechianus. It is dwarf (lagodechianus - tall), growing in full sun on open slopes between rocks (lagodechianus - openings in forest). I completely can't agree with last Paeonia monograph (Kew) not accepting this one as species. I haven't monograph of Hong De-Yuan in my possesion at present, so can't tell with which it is associated, but then Picea and Pinus both are same as both have needle like leaves... ;D
Attached pictures made in Iran during WHIR trip.
Still some more differences - seedlings of P. iranica and P. mlokosewitschii are very different by leaf colour, too.
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Here's a daytime shot. Note the different foliage on tow plants.
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Day time flower
Paeonia tenuifolia ssp. lithofolia
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Nice to see some Paeony flowers, mine will be a couple of weeks or so yet.
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Thank you Gail. :)
Very interesting peonies from Iran.
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Picea and Pinus both are same as both have needle like leaves... ;D
LOL exactly Janis...and they look even more the same if you only see them on an herbarium specimen!
M.
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'Jenny' came from 'The Plantsmen' nursery of Eric Smith and Jim Archibald. In the Spring 2010 newsletter of the HPS Peony Group Judy Templar reported that she asked Jim about it and he thought that it had been raised from seed sent to them by Vera Frazer Mackie who gardened beside Belfast Lough in Northern Ireland. He thought the seed was labelled as from a wittmanniana hybrid but that Jenny looked more as if it had some influence of P. obovata or even P. cambessedesii.
I agree with you...Jenny seems to me more obovata than wittmanniana...but it does OK with me - where pure obovata struggles even in shade.
I am not really into hybrids (esp. the big & bold ones) but I have to admit that Jenny has a particular charm...the same simple elegance of most Saunders and Auten herbaceous hybrids...and it seems relatively easy to grow.
M.
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jenny is very lovely :)
I'm waiting for the first flower of my paeonias, I think, mairei will be first, followed by mlokosewitchi.
But I had to wait and wait and wait and ... ::)
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My P. mascula (?) is in full flower now.
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My P. mascula (?) is in full flower now.
impressive! where did you get your plants from? clones or seedlings?
M.
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This is - as I think - a P. officinalis of garden origin. It opened its flowers this weekend. Matrix planting with Geranium phaeum, the big leaf is Heracleum sphondyleum.
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impressive! where did you get your plants from? clones or seedlings?
M.
Alpine Garden Society seed, probably 20 years ago - there are two different plants there, divided several times.
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This is - as I think - a P. officinalis of garden origin. It opened its flowers this weekend. Matrix planting with Geranium phaeum, the big leaf is Heracleum sphondyleum.
Looks lovely among the geraniums Thomas but certainly in my garden it would struggle long-term amongst such vigorous neighbours.
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It is so nice to see pictures of peonies while waiting for my own to flower. Growing from seed is very satisfying but slow, but I do have some which are going to flower in a few weeks. :)
'Jenny' looks great when flowering, the leaves look hairy (?) and add to the charm.
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Is this Paeonia obovata?
was given to ma a P caucasica, but was never red. or is this a mloko hybrid
this year it is white, and the blooms are lasting several days in our nice steady fair spring weather of the past week, in prior years it was a cream or pale yellow and the blooms lasted about 30 minutes in bright hot sun. in the fall it has red and black seeds.
Thank you
Rimmer
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A wonderful plant, Rimmer. If grown from seed of garden origin, it might be a hybrid. Here is my Paeonia obovata for comparison, which looks different.
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Looks lovely among the geraniums Thomas but certainly in my garden it would struggle long-term amongst such vigorous neighbours.
I think the peony has to struggle, Gail, but it works for more than ten years now ...
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Peonies and weather were magical this evening. Can't help and show you some more pics ... :)
Paeonia officinalis
Paeonia daurica subsp. daurica
Paeonia officinalis
Paeonia officinalis
Paeonia officinalis f. mollis
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Lovely Thomas, mollis is such a lovely shaped flower. Fantastic weather here too and here is my plant obtained as P. kavachensis from eastern Turkey - I think this is considered to be synonymous with daurica ssp. daurica.
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A wonderful plant, Rimmer. If grown from seed of garden origin, it might be a hybrid. Here is my Paeonia obovata for comparison, which looks different.
Thanks Thomas
I am not sure from where it came from. i now understand that it is a P. ovata, now the question is if var. obovata or var willmottiae.
i understand the difference is in the fuzzyness on the underside of the leaves.
I added a picture to my original post showing the fuzzy underside of the leaves.
Your plant looks a bit different with the bigger center less pronounced carpels.
Rimmer
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So many beautiful plants.
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Lovely Thomas, mollis is such a lovely shaped flower. Fantastic weather here too and here is my plant obtained as P. kavachensis from eastern Turkey - I think this is considered to be synonymous with daurica ssp. daurica.
A striking clump, Gail, and the combination with Leucojum aestivum is lovely!
I had a look at Hong's Peonies of the World and found, that P. kavachensis Azn. from E. Turkey is now a synonym of P. mascula subsp. mascula, whereas P kavachensis auct. non Azn. is P. daurica subsp. coriifolia. Quite confusing, isn't it? ??? ::)
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I had a look at Hong's Peonies of the World and found, that P. kavachensis Azn. from E. Turkey is now a synonym of P. mascula subsp. mascula, whereas P kavachensis auct. non Azn. is P. daurica subsp. coriifolia. Quite confusing, isn't it? ??? ::)
Very confusing! :)
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Very confusing! :)
Shall we add to the puzzle P. caucasica and P. ruprechtiana? Together with P. kavachensis they seem now to be all inside the same name of P. daurica ssp. coorifolia. Only the knowledge of the exact provenance is the key to the problem.
Gail - with regard to your P. mascula clump - do you know the exact origin of the seeds you received from the Alpine Garden Society? Morphologically your plants seem similar to those from Calabria or Puglia (Gargano).
And what about your P. kavachensis from East Turkey? Is it from wild collected seed? Is definitely not P. daurica ssp. daurica (have a look at Thomas' plant...those are the "correct" leaves). To me it looks more similar to what was called P. caucasica that grows in the W Caucasus (Georgia rather than E Turkey)...or it is P. mascula ssp. mascula.
In the first & second pic it is P. caucasica at Berlin-Dahlem BG from a seed collection in Georgia by the Komarov Botanical Institute. The third pic is my plant of P. caucasica from Rareplants and P. kavachensis at Kew in the fourth pic (also from St Petersburg BG).
I do admit that P. ruprechtiana could be only a variation of P. caucasica ("selected" by Tibilisi BG) with emerging leaves of deep copper colour and darker flowers...
http://www.paeonia.ch/gmbh/ruprechtiana.html (http://www.paeonia.ch/gmbh/ruprechtiana.html)
...but P. kavachensis is slightly different esp. in the leaves...may be more similar to P. daurica ssp. daurica but bigger in all its parts.
HENDRIK...once you told us that you saw P. kavachensis it in the wild in deep shade...where was it? Have you got pics of it?
M.
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I think the mascula was garden seed (but obtained before I kept records) so of course you have to add in the potential for hybridisation. The kavachensis was bought as a seedling from an AGS member; I don't know where their seed came from.
I have a plant obtained as P. ruprechtiana from Paul Christian back in December 2001. It has always clung to life rather than thrived with me (although it is planted in a rather crowded bed and I should have tried moving it years ago). Currently a solitary stem, the flower should open in a day or two.
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All this about differences in P.daurica is very informing, thank you. I have one plant of P.kavachensis, which is going to flower this year for the first time, I'll post pictures so you can say what you think of it. All the pictures you have posted look really nice and desirable. :)
Thomas's P.obovata looks the same as my P.obovata subs willmottiae, while Rimmer's plant looks different to me. These pictures are from last summer, it has just come up here. It's leaves are hairy underneath, but glabrous above, and they get reddish autumn color. The stamens are dark like in Thomas's picture.
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I think the mascula was garden seed (but obtained before I kept records) so of course you have to add in the potential for hybridisation. The kavachensis was bought as a seedling from an AGS member; I don't know where their seed came from.
I have a plant obtained as P. ruprechtiana from Paul Christian back in December 2001. It has always clung to life rather than thrived with me (although it is planted in a rather crowded bed and I should have tried moving it years ago). Currently a solitary stem, the flower should open in a day or two.
We all have ruprechtiana from Rareplants...that is from Tibilisi BG...and no one knows whether it was wild collected or whether it is only a "garden selection" (sounds less bad than saying "hybrid" LOL)
This plant seems to be pretty only on Rareplants pic...my own plant bought around 2004 has literally traveled the entire garden as in any location I planted it was getting smaller rather than growing. I might have found now a decent spot: since 2010 is planted in deep shade facing NE at the base of a tall Laurus nobilis hedge in a raised bed filled with quite heavy soil (sticky when wet) mixed with leaf mould (and a good dose of Nitrophoska!). This year I finally had 3 flowering stems...but the flowers were not even worth taking a pic...the petals all ruffled and messy...and they lasted 48 hours.
Gail - I am surprised that even your plant is not doing well...are you on sandy soil? My first attempt was also on light soil...and I almost lost it. Leena in Finland you should try it...may be it needs a colder climate.
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All this about differences in P.daurica is very informing, thank you. I have one plant of P.kavachensis, which is going to flower this year for the first time, I'll post pictures so you can say what you think of it. All the pictures you have posted look really nice and desirable. :)
Thomas's P.obovata looks the same as my P.obovata subs willmottiae, while Rimmer's plant looks different to me. These pictures are from last summer, it has just come up here. It's leaves are hairy underneath, but glabrous above, and they get reddish autumn color. The stamens are dark like in Thomas's picture.
Yes Leena & Thomas plants are definitely P. obovata ssp. willottiae.
Rimmer's plant could be either "normal" P. obovata or P. japonica...I don't grow any of those...I can only comment on pics or plants seen at Kew. However Rimmer you got a great bargain! obovata/japonica are definitely more expensive and difficult to grow than kavachensis. Silly question...have you asked the nursery that sold it to you?
M.
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Yes Leena & Thomas plants are definitely P. obovata ssp. willottiae.
Rimmer's plant could be either "normal" P. obovata or P. japonica...I dong grow any of those...I can only comment on pics or plants seen at Kew. However Rimmer you got a great bargain! obovata/japonica are definitely more expensive and difficult to grow than kavakensis. Silly question...have you asked the nursery that sold it to you?
M.
Hi Matt
I received this plant as a division from a friend, but i don't recall which friend gave me this one. The friend who gave me many peonies has never seen this one so it is a mystery!
it has been planted in a sunny rather dry location for 5 years and bloomed once before but i missed it, the seed was red and black.
Paeonia tenuifolia is beginning to bloom, has anyone grown the pink form of the single or double thread leaf peony?
Rimmer
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A Berlin Paeonia, the first in flower today ;)
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I believe that the P. obovata we grow is closer to Rimmer's plant except the ovaries on our plant are green. I think the original seed came from McLewen and I've grown many seedlings from it over the years with consistent results (all open pollinated). A few years back I sent a few hundred seed to Kristl at Gardens North so it is out there.
Rob
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Great, now I know, that my Paeonia obovata is subsp. willmottiae, thanks to Matt and Leena!
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P.mlokosewitchi is in flower now
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Good one, Irm.
Here Paeonia steveniana, now P. daurica subsp. macrophylla opened today. For me this is always the most mysterious peony, as it never opens the flowers wide and keeps its secret ... :)
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P caucasica triternata grown from second generation seed originally from the botanical garden in Hof, Germany given by Hermann, Fuchs
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Paeonia mlokosewitschii after our first rain of note. Everything was like dust.
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We all have ruprechtiana from Rareplants.... Leena in Finland you should try it...may be it needs a colder climate.
I have one P.ruprechtiana, two year old seedling which I planted outside last autumn. I got some seeds from a Finnish friend who was working in Scotland for a year few years ago and is a member of SRGC, and she had bought the seeds from one of the events (she told me about SRGC and this forum :))
So this is all I know of it's origin. Here is a picture of it last year, it doesn't seem any bigger yet.
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Great, now I know, that my Paeonia obovata is subsp. willmottiae, thanks to Matt and Leena!
Thomas, does your P.obovata subsp willmottiae set good seeds?
My normal pink P.obovata sets masses of seeds, but most of the seeds of P.obovata subsp willmottiae are not good (red), or only very small and flat black seeds. My plant was planted in 2006 and only twice I have gotten couple of good fat seeds, and even they have never germinated. I have now again three seeds from last year which developed roots in the early winter, they have not yet come up after the cold period. I hope they will germinate, but I'm not surprised if they don't.
It is a puzzle to me why this peony doesn't set seeds like the normal P.obovata or other species!
It flowers here about 10 days later than P.obovata, and there are no frosts at that time usually, and I have many other peonies flowering (P.anomala, P.veitchii, P.officinalis and early hybrids) at the same time.
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Paeonia emodi
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Thomas, does your P.obovata subsp willmottiae set good seeds?
My normal pink P.obovata sets masses of seeds, but most of the seeds of P.obovata subsp willmottiae are not good (red), or only very small and flat black seeds. My plant was planted in 2006 and only twice I have gotten couple of good fat seeds, and even they have never germinated. I have now again three seeds from last year which developed roots in the early winter, they have not yet come up after the cold period. I hope they will germinate, but I'm not surprised if they don't.
It is a puzzle to me why this peony doesn't set seeds like the normal P.obovata or other species!
It flowers here about 10 days later than P.obovata, and there are no frosts at that time usually, and I have many other peonies flowering (P.anomala, P.veitchii, P.officinalis and early hybrids) at the same time.
Leena, I think, my P. obovata subsp. willmottiae behaves exactly like your plant. Sometimes I found some black seeds, but in most years there are only red ones that are sterile. But I never collected the seeds, just let them fall down hoping for seedlings ... but never found one. But the sterile red seeds are very beautiful. I have only one plant of Paeonia obovata. Maybe it needs a companion ... Like in your garden there are many other peonies flowering at that time.
Sterile seeds of Paeonia obovata subsp. willmottiae:
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Thomas, it is good to know your plant is the same, I had begun to think there was something wrong here.
I wonder how this species can survive in the wild, if there are no seeds (or not much).
This is my plant from last autumn, besides the decorative seedpods, it gets a nice autumn color.
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I have one P.ruprechtiana, two year old seedling which I planted outside last autumn. I got some seeds from a Finnish friend who was working in Scotland for a year few years ago and is a member of SRGC, and she had bought the seeds from one of the events (she told me about SRGC and this forum :))
So this is all I know of it's origin. Here is a picture of it last year, it doesn't seem any bigger yet.
Plant you seedling in late summer (or even now if the pot is full of roots) - it is big enough. In the pot will never grow well.
M.
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Below our plant of Paeonia tenuifolia in the garden, planted in a rich well drained soil, south facing against a fence. We grew this plant for the first 20 years in pots and exhibited it once at Chelsea flower show (Gold medal), it was then put out to stud about 15 years ago.
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Eat your heart out Rob, Maggi will post a picture in a day or two, to show P. tenuifolia in a Czech garden as we saw it just a few days ago. A very ordinary garden in which it appeared seed had been broadcast and the Paeonia was flowering over an area of maybe 50 square metres, probably hundreds of flowers, a magnificent sight. The beautiful and elegant Olga from Moscow mentioned a white form she had seen recently in the Caucasus. That would be something!
Forgive me please. Maggi and Ian are entertaining me and tolerating my cold-ridden presence for the moment. Lunch was a delicious chicken but the rest of the day has "Macallan" on the label. :D
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P. tenuifolia in a residential garden in SE Michigan blooming yesterday.
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Oh Rimmer, Lesley has fainted - I think it is simply the wonder of the paeony, rather than the Macallan......... we are all pretty impressed, that's for sure!
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Unfortunately this is not my yard. But along a dirt road in a rural area.
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Here comes Paeonia tenuifolia in the garden of friends nearby. It really can thrive, but never with me ...
They also grow the pink form.
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Hi Thomas,
I'd never seen the pink form before! :o
Amazing but I'm still in awe of the plain red one as well!
Thanks for posting, everyone!
cheers
fermi
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The P. tenuifolia in my location are just finishing up on bloom. I grow the red single, red double, and pink single tenuifolia. Both the single red and double red are wonderful plants and never fail to make an outstanding statement for early spring bloom. I do not consider the pink form to be garden worthy. The bloom is faint and does not show up in the garden. It seems to be harder to grow for most people than either of the red forms however if you give it the right conditions it seems to be happy. For me the pink form has been very prolific as I have multiple plants in several locations around the yard.
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Lucky you, Leon ... maybe you have the right conditions :)
Paeonia tenuifolia is a plant from the steppe regions north of the Black Sea. That means hot summers, cold winters and no competition from other plants.
Nevertheless, I think the pink form is charming ... :-)
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A rare peony from my friends' garden: Paeonia qiui
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some remarks to the discussion about "true" emodi and how possibly to differ from the very similar hybrid 'Early Windflower'. i noticed 3 signs ('Early Windflower')...
1. when the flower bud just comes out, the color is not the clear white of the open petals. it's tinged with just a hint of rose, very difficult to realize, best to see at cloudy days.
2. when the flower period ends, when the petals start to fall down, some of the petals (not all, a few) show a remarkable pink blotch only at the base of the petal, quite small. i never noticed it. a friend visited my garden and i proudly presented my wonderful "emodi", even though it was the end of the flowering time. he picked a single petal and said something like this..."never saw a pink sign on a white emodi petal"...uuups...this was a clear sign of the parent anomala. ;D
3. 'Early Windflower' set normally no seed. maybe it's a triploid form? don't know whether anomala or and emodi is are diploid or tetraploid. in 6 years my false emodi/'Early Windflower' made 2 (two!) seedcorms and only in one year. one grain germinated and this is what came out...very influenced by anomala in my opinion. it's the seedling in the middle of the foto, above are emodi-seedlings, the small ones are cambessedesii + below 2 seedlings of white obovata.
[attachimg=1]
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And what about the carpels? As Matt said previously in this thread, the main feature of true P. emodi is the single carpel. Do the Windflowers have 2, 3 or more carpels? I do not grow them myself and cannot have a look ... ::)
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(Carsten Burkhardt's Web Project Paeonia - The Peony Database; scroll down to "Stern" (http://www.paeo.de/aaa/07940.html))
Stern (1946): Description Paeonia emodi: ...Carpels usually one, rarely two...
here my 'Early Windflower':
one carpel: [attachimg=1]
two carpels: [attachimg=2] ;D :)
whole plant: [attachimg=3]
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What a nice looking peony in a lovely setting. :)
I planted 'Early Windflower' last autumn, so it will probably not flower this year, but the seed raised P.emodi (if they are true) show buds, so it will be exciting to see how they will look.
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Some beautiful images here :)
For those of you who haven't seen Hong's Peonies of the World Volume II - His photos of a P. emodi from a population in Jiangcun Village, Gyirong County, Tibet show two carpels. As Greenspan illustrates so beautifully, carpels can vary within the same plant.
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Paeonia "iranica" blooming today.
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to me it seems to be a dwarf form of Paeonia daurica (whatever subspecies status). wonderful plant. 8)
@gail
thanks for the information in Hongs book about the possible carpel number of the emodi. it proves Stern's statement in his description from 1946.
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hi thomas,
nice paeonies, i see, you live not so far away from me ;)
cheers
chris
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Thank you for the photographs, greenspan. But would you say, your Windflower has usually one carpel, rarely two, like P. emodi, or usually two, rarely one? Or is it impossible to decide, as about half of the flowers has one and the other half two carpels? That would be the point.
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hi thomas,
nice paeonies, i see, you live not so far away from me ;)
cheers
chris
Hello Chris,
very nice to meet here in this global forum someone from nearby :D
cheers Thomas
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today i checked the open flowers of my 'Early Windflower'...i would say about half/half one carpel/2 carpels. i think the discussion one or (rarely) 2 carpels is not helpful. we don't know what material wallich or stern had for examination...herbar material? plants in the wild? one stem of each of how many herbars?
i think i found a good + easy to detect sign to differ 'Early Windflower' from emodi ...the shape of the lower leaves!
emodi: entire or often deeply divided into two, or the terminal leaflet into three segments
anomala: the leaflets are pinnatisect with numerous narrow segments, some of which are deeply 2- or 3-lobed
(source: description Stern 1946)
also the 'Early Windflower' shows the 2-3 lobed leafs, a typical sign of its parent anomala ssp. veitchii. here leaf fotos of my anomala and 'Early Windflower'
anomala ssp. anomala (ex china/xinjiang): [attachimg=1]
anomala seedling: [attachimg=2]
'Early Windflower': [attachimg=3]
'Early Windflower' [attachimg=4]
unfortunately if still have no adult emodi, only seedlings. but on Carsten Burkhardt's Web Project Paeonia you can see true emodi plants (http://www.paeo.de/aaa/07940.html) (scroll down to the fotos)...compare the leaves...none of the terminal leaflets are lobed!
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This year we skipped spring and turned over to summer directly... 23*C today and Everything comes at once....Paeonia iranica....//Jonny
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thx Gail for pointing out the two carpels on the pic in the second HDY peony book...quite peculiar...however I also noticed 5 carpels on my P. clusii where all books say it should have 2 to 4 carpels...I guess this is what is called true "polymorphism". I also suspect that in cultivation (often in better growing condition) the plants may look slightly different than those seen in nature.
...none of the terminal leaflets are lobed!
exactly...have a look at my post on the 17th of April...the image of the true P. emodi in Berlin BG...the terminal leaflets are always entire (and ALL flowers have only 1 carpel).
M.
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Paeonia "iranica" blooming today.
thx Janis great P. iranica...any closer/detail pic available?
thx in advance :-))
m.
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Got this plant as a present when visiting peony friends. Unfortunately all information about it was lost except that it should be "something very special" and I should find out myself ... Well, I think it is a P. mascula ... ??? ::) ???
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Got this plant as a present when visiting peony friends. Unfortunately all information about it was lost except that it should be "something very special" and I should find out myself ... Well, I think it is a P. mascula ... ??? ::) ???
It seems to me a P. arietina type or a P. officinalis/mollis hybrid...you should have a look at the roots...the species/types mentioned have fasciculated/tuberous roots where the roots of all mascula/daurica types are carrot like.
M.
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Thank you, Matt. I'll do that when planting it out in autumn.
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White peonies from today for Whitsunday:
Paeonia officinalis 'Alba Plena'
Paeonia suffruticosa 'Godaishu'
Paeonia ostii 'Feng Dan Bai'
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P.veitchii has lots of buds. :) Photo taken in the evening light.
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This came as P.veitchii, blooming today
it looks very much like P. anomala and i like to show both plants to determine the differences.
the plant marked P.veitchii is pictured in this post. most blooms have 4 carpels , one bloom has 5 carpels.
the plant marked P. anomla has 2 buds one is open and has 2 carpels.
Thank you
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This came as a seedling marked as P. anomla from the Altari Mountains
it looks very similar to P. veitchii but slightest differences to leaves and only 2 carpels in the open bloom - blooms at same time as P. veitchii.
are these the same?
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This came as a seedlings marked P. mascula ssp. arientina
blooming at the same time as P. veitcheii. 3 carpels, a bit of fuzz on stems and leaves.
is this plant identified correctly?
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P. tenuifolia plena blooming today, like a hot sunny spot, the ants made a colony under this plant and the iris
gray iris is Iris hoogiana 'Bronze Beauty'
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Paeonia suminoichi is in flower today, planted last spring. I think, I love it ;)
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Paeonia suminoichi? :o :o :o??? ??? ??? a new species? Never heard about it ... ::)
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Rimmer, Paeonia veitchii is considered by Hong just as a subspecies of P. anomala. The only difference is that P. anomal has solitary flowers, rarely 2, P. veitchii 2 - 4 flowers, rarely solitary. Your anoma has a solitary flower, but I can't decide that from the photograph of your veitchii.
What you received as arietina looks like the peony I am guessing what it is and Matt is thinking of arietina ... We both will have to examine the roots ... :)
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Paeonia suminoichi? :o :o :o??? ??? ??? a new species? Never heard about it ... ::)
Its a hybrid, "suminoichi" is only its name in Japan ;D
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OK, just a cultivar name ... Paeonia 'Suminoichi' :)
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OK, just a cultivar name ... Paeonia 'Suminoichi' :)
http://paeonia.mansaku.de/paeonia/dunkelrot.html (http://paeonia.mansaku.de/paeonia/dunkelrot.html)
http://www.peonysoc.com/index%20of%20peonies.htm (http://www.peonysoc.com/index%20of%20peonies.htm)
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jjshs1925/60/2/60_2_395/_pdf (https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jjshs1925/60/2/60_2_395/_pdf)
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Rimmer, Paeonia veitchii is considered by Hong just as a subspecies of P. anomala. The only difference is that P. anomle has solitary flowers, rarely 2, P. veitchii 2 - 4 flowers, rarely solitary. Your anomala has a solitary flower, but I can't decide that from the photograph of your veitchii.
What you received as arietina looks like the peony I am guessing what it is and Matt is thinking of arietina ... We both will have to examine the roots ... :)
Thomas
when you say solitary flowers do you mean number of flowers in a stem? both plants have 1 terminal flower.
the only diff. i can tell is the number of carpels and the leaf cuts. otherwise they look identical, and grow identical
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Rimmer, Paeonia veitchii is considered by Hong just as a subspecies of P. anomala. The only difference is that P. anomal has solitary flowers, rarely 2, P. veitchii 2 - 4 flowers, rarely solitary. Your anoma has a solitary flower, but I can't decide that from the photograph of your veitchii.
I agree with Thomas, P anomala has only one flower per stem (very rarely two) and P.veitchii can have only one flower if the plant is young or growing in poor conditions, but mature plants have 2-4 flowers per stem (side buds), and even young plants have at least some side buds.
To me both plants look like P.anomala.
Also all P.anomala I have seen are tall plants (more than 60-70cm) while all P.veitchii I have seen are shorter, but books don't say anything about this so perhaps flowers per stem is a better identification. I have four P.veitchii's, all from different source, and all are short plants (40-50cm), but the flower color varies. In my own plants, also the nodding flower of P.veitchii is more flat open, while the flower of P.anomala looks different (I don't know how to explain it in English), I'll post pictures when they open.
To me the flowers in Rimmer's plants look like P.anomala.
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I agree with Thomas, P anomala has only one flower per stem (very rarely two)
I think, you are right, here is my P.anomala :)
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Irm, a very nice peony :), which has quite large and open flowers. more showy than in many anomalas.
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one of my anomala stocks. i don't differentiate between ssp. anomala or ssp. veitchii. my plants are mostly seed grown without any information, where the seed comes from. probably from garden or botanical gardens. so a mix between both ssp. should be likely. but i have also one anomala from china, xinjiang. in this province only anomala ssp. anomala is native. it is a quite dwarf anomala, about 30 cm (you can see the leaves on the left side of the foto, only one flower this year). so leena, the size is not a suitable feature. i'm not shure but the stock on the foto could be a seedling of the dwarf anomala. it reaches about 60-70 cm.
[attachimg=1]
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Shall we add to the puzzle P. caucasica and P. ruprechtiana? Together with P. kavachensis they seem now to be all inside the same name of P. daurica ssp. coorifolia. Only the knowledge of the exact provenance is the key to the problem.
Gail - with regard to your P. mascula clump - do you know the exact origin of the seeds you received from the Alpine Garden Society? Morphologically your plants seem similar to those from Calabria or Puglia (Gargano).
And what about your P. kavachensis from East Turkey? Is it from wild collected seed? Is definitely not P. daurica ssp. daurica (have a look at Thomas' plant...those are the "correct" leaves). To me it looks more similar to what was called P. caucasica that grows in the W Caucasus (Georgia rather than E Turkey)...or it is P. mascula ssp. mascula.
In the first & second pic it is P. caucasica at Berlin-Dahlem BG from a seed collection in Georgia by the Komarov Botanical Institute. The third pic is my plant of P. caucasica from Rareplants and P. kavachensis at Kew in the fourth pic (also from St Petersburg BG).
I do admit that P. ruprechtiana could be only a variation of P. caucasica ("selected" by Tibilisi BG) with emerging leaves of deep copper colour and darker flowers...
http://www.paeonia.ch/gmbh/ruprechtiana.html (http://www.paeonia.ch/gmbh/ruprechtiana.html)
...but P. kavachensis is slightly different esp. in the leaves...may be more similar to P. daurica ssp. daurica but bigger in all its parts.
HENDRIK...once you told us that you saw P. kavachensis it in the wild in deep shade...where was it? Have you got pics of it?
M.
Sorry for my very late reply Matt, but I'm just back for my annual trip to the mountains....
In April 2010 I was in Georgia and able to see the true P. "ruprechtiana" in the wild (growing in deep shade);
herewith a picture of it.
The people of the BG of Tbilisi allowed me to collect 3 seedlings; they survived all here; in cultivation the leaves remains the marvellous deep copper colour
and this year the plants flowered for the first time! A wonderful sight, but no pictures available.
New name for P."ruprechtiana" is now P. daurica ssp. coriifolia.
I have never saw P. kavachensis in the wild.
Hendrik
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During the same trip in Georgia we visited the "locus classicus" of P. steveniana in the region of Bakuriana;
unfortunately we were a few days to early to see the flowers.
This peony calls now P. daurica ssp. macrophylla.
I was again allowed to collect a few seedlings; those too survived, but the copper foliage is far more weaker in cultivation....
Herewith some pictures.
Hendrik
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And herewith the woodland location where this paeony grows...
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During this trip we want to visit of course the location of P. mlokosowitchii in the Lagodechi Nature Reserve.
Due to the heavy rains and the very long walk (6 hours up and down) through the woods we didn’t succeed to reach the location.
But to give you an idea of the place herewith a marvellous picture of the great woods where this peony grows … look how small we were….
Hendrik
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But to give you an idea of the place herewith a marvellous picture of the great woods where this peony grows … look how small we were….
Hendrik
A majestic landscape indeed. 8)
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i have also one anomala from china, xinjiang. in this province only anomala ssp. anomala is native. it is a quite dwarf anomala, about 30 cm (you can see the leaves on the left side of the foto, only one flower this year). so leena, the size is not a suitable feature.]
Thank you greenspan, my experience was only from the plants I had seen here, so it is very limited. :)
Hendrik, wonderful to see pictures of native habitats of peonies.
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...region of Bakuriana;
...
This peony calls now P. daurica ssp. macrophylla.
I understand systematics is changing. But it is a very strange when peony growing in Tauria names daurica and than the name spreads on the species growing in Georgia. Dauria is a place in thousands km from Krymea and Georgia. And the peonies do not grow there. ???
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But to give you an idea of the place herewith a marvellous picture of the great woods where this peony grows … look how small we were….
Mysterious place, Hendrik! Thank you for the picture. What a pity the weather stopped you.
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Paeonia caucasica in the wild.
(http://cs1252.vk.me/u6450879/22340033/x_9e6c4016.jpg)
(http://cs1252.vk.me/u6450879/22340033/x_b32ece1d.jpg)
It is very common in north-west Caucasus.
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I understand systematics is changing. But it is a very strange when peony growing in Tauria names daurica and than the name spreads on the species growing in Georgia. Dauria is a place in thousands km from Krymea and Georgia. And the peonies do not grow there. ???
the english botanist Henry Charles Andrews described this peony first in 1807 (Botanists Repositary 7, t. 486; 1807). don't know what material he had. maybe he got plants or herbar material which origin was mislabelled. i found this informations about "triternata", a synonym for daurica, author Wister (1961):
"P. daurica Andrews, 1807.
Synonyms: caucasica Schipczmsky, 1937; corallina Retzius sec. Bieberstein, 1808; corallina subsp. triternata (Pallas) Busch, 1901; corallina subsp. triternata var. corifolia (Ruprecht) Busch, 1901; corallina var. caucasica Schipczinsky, 1921; corallina var. pallasi Huth, 1891; corallina var. triternata (Pallas) Boissier, 1867; mascula var. triternata (Pallas) Gurke, 1903; triternata Pallas, 1795; and triternata t. coriifolia Ruprecht, 1869.
Crimea and Caucasus. Best known in gardens as "triternata" Pallas. Distinguished by ruffled rounded upturned leaves. Probably discovered by Pallas before 1790 and sent to Bell in London. This is the original name under which it has long been known in gardens. Only recently, apparently, has it been noted that it was a nomen nudum, that is, a name without a valid description. Under botanical rules, therefore, it has no standing. For that reason Stern has accepted the next oldest name daurica. Stebbins considered "triternata" the species of which mlokosewitschi was only a botanical variety, but Stern does not agree and places it in the mascula group. It was listed by Barr in 1885. Flowers rose or magenta to soft pink." (source (http://www.paeo.de/aaa/07630.html)).
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greenspan, I know, I understand. But result sounds very strange isn't it?
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greenspan, I know, I understand. But result sounds very strange isn't it?
yes ;D
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I love your fotos of paeonias in the wild :D thank you very much !
Here a paeonia, buyed as an emodii, but I think its a windflower.
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Paeonia caucasica in the wild.
(http://cs1252.vk.me/u6450879/22340033/x_9e6c4016.jpg)
(http://cs1252.vk.me/u6450879/22340033/x_b32ece1d.jpg)
It is very common in north-west Caucasus.
Very nice picture!
I have never had the chance to see so much peonies together in the wild.
Hendrik
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Paeonia cambessedesii in a very large stone trough.
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wow, Mike, I love it ! wonderful cambessedessi :o
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Paeonia cambessedesii in a very large stone trough.
Mike, don't you mean "superb large Paeonia cambessedesii in a very large stone trough"
:o 8) 8)
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Hello,
after a long break here again a few pictures of my Peonies - some bloom here for the first time (after a long time from seed to bud)
Here are pictures of P.peregrina - I got these seeds from botanists, they were collected in the Ionian Islands.
These plants are slightly different from my P.peregrina from Calabria ...
Have fun
Hans
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Now the Sainson has also started with us :-)
Paeonia mlokosewitschii
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Last week the first P.obovata opened it's flowers, they are now almost over. My other P.obovata grows in more shade and it is just now starting to flower. Both peonies are raised from seed (garden origin). The larger and later plant is actually three seedlings planted close to each other when they were small.
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This is a peony grown from seeds labeled P.kavachensis. Does it look right? This is a first time it flowers and it is still growing in the seedling bed, and gets too much sun. For some reason it has yellow stripes in the leaves, this has never happened before. Maybe it is because of the sun, or perhaps I damaged its roots earlier in the spring when I dug some plants near it.. Any guesses why the yellow stripes?
Here is also a picture of P.officinalis ssp officinalis.
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This is a peony grown from seeds labeled P.kavachensis. Does it look right? This is a first time it flowers and it is still growing in the seedling bed, and gets too much sun. For some reason it has yellow stripes in the leaves, this has never happened before. Maybe it is because of the sun, or perhaps I damaged its roots earlier in the spring when I dug some plants near it.. Any guesses why the yellow stripes?
It looks like my kavachensis Leena. I've seen assorted yellow markings on the leaves of a few peonies. There are several viruses that have been isolated from peonies (see http://georgesonbg.org/PDFs/Peonies/09.Samuitiene.pdf (http://georgesonbg.org/PDFs/Peonies/09.Samuitiene.pdf)) which may be the cause, although there are lots of variegations in the plant world so no reason why peonies should not be variegated too. Standard advice with plant virus is to destroy the plant but the RHS say that peony ringspot virus can be tolerated, just sterilise your secateurs if you cut the foliage down so you don't spread it. My plant which had mottled leaves looks normal this year so I would just leave it.
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Thank you Gail. :) I'd hate to destroy this peony, it is the only P.kavachensis I have and I like it's flowers, they have strong colour and are not too small. I was planning to move it to shade bed in the autumn, and I will have to be careful to clean the spade after moving. It had normal leaves last year, and I hope it will return to normal.
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Paeonia obovata subsp. willmottiae is open now:
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When looking at Olga's picture of P.caucasica in nature, I remember once wondering how peonies can spread in the wild, the seeds are quite heavy and no animal spreads them. In the picture I can imagine seeds just dropping in the ground and rolling down the slope and germinating in such a large number as in the picture. :) Really nice view, I keep coming back to it. :)
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Very nice peony, Thomas. :)
Mine is still in bud, perhaps a week more before it opens.
The "normal" P.obovata is almost finished with flowering, this picture is from day before yesterday, morning.
Now is also flowering an unknown early hybrid, possibly with P.wittmanniana. I like this peony very much, it opens with a flush of pink but fades to pure white. I have also 'Fan Tan', which starts to flower over a week later than this peony and they grow close to each other.
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Paeonia peregrina starting to bloom. It was started from a very small division.
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Very nice peony, Thomas. :)
Mine is still in bud, perhaps a week more before it opens.
The "normal" P.obovata is almost finished with flowering, this picture is from day before yesterday, morning.
Now is also flowering an unknown early hybrid, possibly with P.wittmanniana. I like this peony very much, it opens with a flush of pink but fades to pure white. I have also 'Fan Tan', which starts to flower over a week later than this peony and they grow close to each other.
yes your plant looks morphologically like P. kevachensis.
your obovatas...what a glory!!! the pleasure of gardening in cooler climates with reliable rainfall...very rare pleasures indeed!
m.
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From the deepest south...Paeonia peregrina in the wild in Calabria (S. Italy...the toe of the boot...).
The peonies in their thousands, the sun, the blue sky, the sea on the horizon, the crickets, the birds and the wind...impossible to describe with words...thx to Angelo & Filippo.
M.
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Wow, Astragalus's garden plant of peregrina is beautiful but to see them in the wild like that would be such a great joy. Thank you everyone for all the peony pictures.
If anyone is near Wisley on Sunday there should be some peonies to admire;
http://www.peonysoc.com/peony%20society%20news.htm (http://www.peonysoc.com/peony%20society%20news.htm)
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A whole hillside of Paeonia peregrine - what a wonderful sight that must have been.
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Hello,
after a long break here again a few pictures of my Peonies - some bloom here for the first time (after a long time from seed to bud)
Here are pictures of P.peregrina - I got these seeds from botanists, they were collected in the Ionian Islands.
These plants are slightly different from my P.peregrina from Calabria ...
Have fun
Hans
Could it be P. saueri?
Hong De-Yuan says that P. saueri differs with P. peregrina in having leaflets mostly entire, instead of dentate-lobed, that are hispidulous beneath, instead of glabrous, and in having red stigmas, instead of yellow/pale pink.
From your images this seems the case (are the leaves slightly hairy beneath?).
For comparison, attached is a close detail of a flower of wild P. peregrina from Calabria
There is also a provenance issue. HdY considers as type a collection on Mt. Pangeon near Kavala in NE Greece...quite far away from the Ionian Islands.
HdY also refers to an "additional specimen examined" from Melesine in S Albania...collected in 1933...(no comment!...we love the zealous botanists don't we?).
However this location could be compatible with the Ionian Islands...in particular Kerkyra (Corfù) and Paxi are very close.
What do you think?
More comments?
M.
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How wonderful it must have been to see all those peonies in the wild, thank you for the pictures. :)
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Could it be P. saueri?
Hong De-Yuan says that P. saueri differs with P. peregrina in having leaflets mostly entire, instead of dentate-lobed, that are hispidulous beneath, instead of glabrous, and in having red stigmas, instead of yellow/pale pink.
From your images this seems the case (are the leaves slightly hairy beneath?).
For comparison, attached is a close detail of a flower of wild P. peregrina from Calabria
There is also a provenance issue. HdY considers as type a collection on Mt. Pangeon near Kavala in NE Greece...quite far away from the Ionian Islands.
HdY also refers to an "additional specimen examined" from Melesine in S Albania...collected in 1933...(no comment!...we love the zealous botanists don't we?).
However this location could be compatible with the Ionian Islands...in particular Kerkyra (Corfù) and Paxi are very close.
What do you think?
More comments?
M.
Matt ,
I had a similar idea like you with P.saueri....I dont know... :-\
Sure - the stigma is red in opposite to those P.peregrina from Calabria ...the Problem is like always: the plants have no labels in her habitat ;D
Here is a link to P.saueri :
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=3636.msg95553#msg95553 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=3636.msg95553#msg95553)
Maybe you should go to compere this plants from Ionian Islands and P.saueri ...
Hans
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hi,
Despite cold and steady rain to grow and flourish ....
got as Paeonia officinalis "Monte baldensis". (what is the difference between "normal")
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hi,
Despite cold and steady rain to grow and flourish ....
get as Paeonia officinalis "Monte baldensis". (what is the difference between "normal")
Exactly!...what is the difference? LOL
P. officinalis ssp banatica from Serbia & Hungary and P. officinalis ssp humilis (also called ssp villosa) from the Western Prealps (French side) are morphologically very distinct from "normal" P. officinalis...one doesn't need to be a botanist to spot the difference!
From what I have seen - the Italian plants from Mt Baldo near Verona - the plants from Abruzzo (the now so called ssp italica) and the plants from the Eastern Prealps & Carso are all the same: P. officinalis ssp officinalis. The only Italian population that seems morphologically distinct (I haven't visited it yet) is the one from the Apennine Mountains south of Modena. HdY says it is P. arietina...we will see.
I do admit that there might be a certain degree of polymorphism within the same population of "normal" P. officinalis esp in the shape of the leaves (the plants from Mt Lanaro near Trieste - for example - can vary quite a lot) but is this enough to define new subspecies?
I am not a botanist...so I am interested in names up to a certain point...when one has the correct provenance of a wild collected plant one doesn't need more in my opinion.
The poet said "What's in a name? That which we call a rose - By any other name would smell as sweet."
M.
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Wow, Matt, what great shots from P. peregrina in the wild! Almost incredible, these populations, and that you took all the troubles to get there at the right moment!
Yes, the provenance, that's the most important thing, but unfortunately mostly it is lost ... when plants are growing in gardens.. . and the plants grown from seeds are getting hybrids. What's in a name, maybe we shouldn't take things too serious ... :-) I am a botanist, but it's not my profession, so I can just enjoy the pants ... LOL
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Is anyone else finding a lack of flowers on their Paeonia this year?
From seed (SRGC 07/2676) sown June 2008 Paeonia delavayi ssp. angustiloba. I also have P. delavayi lutea but not a single flower this year.
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Is it P. anomala, or is it P. veitchii, or is it P. anomala ssp. veitchii??????
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Does someone have information about Paeonia parnassica ?
Is their color really so dark as shown in the book of Josef Halda?
(From him i got the most of my Paeony seed.)
- unfortunately no parnassica :'(
regards
Bernd
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No information, but photographs, though not from my garden.
Paeonia parnassica:
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Is it P. anomala, or is it P. veitchii, or is it P. anomala ssp. veitchii??????
As I can recognize just one flower per stem I would say Paonia anomala subsp. anomala ... ;D
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;D ;D ;D
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Here are pictures of my P.anomala. The seeds for the mother plant of my plant were wild collected from Altai, in banks of river Katun by Helsinki University Expediton in 1990's. This is a young plant for me, it flowers the second time. It is a tall plant, maybe 80cm, but does not need support. The shape of flower petals and how they look forward look typical of the other anomalas I have seen (which is limited, of course :)).
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These are my P.veitchii's, grown from seed, no known provenace.
First P.veitchii var woodwardii (or that is how the seeds were called), a small and young plant, only a few sidebuds.
Then my biggest P.veitchii. When it was younger, there were not many sidebud, but now as the plant has matured, there are a lot of sidebuds, some stems even 4 sidebuds. The color of the petals fades to almost white during flowering. I think there are a lot of variation in the color the P.veitchii, all P.anomalas I have seen are the same color.
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P.mollis and P.obovata subsp willmottiae
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tree Paeonia rockii (Suffructiosa ssp. rockii) ?
probably "Bing shan xue lian"
This year the snails grow very well :P
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These are my P.veitchii's, grown from seed, no known provenace.
First P.veitchii var woodwardii (or that is how the seeds were called), a small and young plant, only a few sidebuds.
Then my biggest P.veitchii. When it was younger, there were not many sidebud, but now as the plant has matured, there are a lot of sidebuds, some stems even 4 sidebuds. The color of the petals fades to almost white during flowering. I think there are a lot of variation in the color the P.veitchii, all P.anomalas I have seen are the same color.
Leena...your anomalas & vietchiis are disgustingly magnificent!...One really has to be in Finland for such a result...without taking any merit from the excellent grower!
M.
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Does someone have information about Paeonia parnassica ?
Is their color really so dark as shown in the book of Josef Halda?
(From him i got the most of my Paeony seed.)
- unfortunately no parnassica :'(
regards
Bernd
Again from the deep South...Paeonia parnassica on Mt. Parnassus last week. Yes the colour is really so dark, almost incredible...there is no photoshop on the pics!
Thomas...I think your friend was given a wrong plant...that is probably P. arietina or officinalis banatica...or simply a garden hybrid.
DEUS CREAVIT, LINNAEUS DISPOSUIT (God created, Linnaeus organized)...if only it were so simple!
The problem is not in the "name" of things but in the fact that names are given by humans...and not by nature, that works is a less "defined" way. Humans LOVE to debate and argue about names and morphological characters (is it pink or mauve...dark pink or purple...hirsute or villose...pubescent or slightly hairy...etc etc).
Almost all botanist talk about species without having specified what their concept/definition of species is. What is a species? Apparently there are more than 50 different definitions...it says it all!
On the contrary, when the location & provenance are certified from the wild, there is little to debate!
Species names should only be used for plants that come from the wild (or hand pollinated or cloned wild plants).
M.
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.... a dream :o ;D
..... there is somewhere a chance of this beautiful plant (legally) to get seeds or seedlings?
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I am stunned by the color of P.parnassica, wonderful, and the plants hold their flowers so proudly above the leaves. I wonder why P.parnassica is not more common as a garden plant (actually I have never seen seeds or plants for sale), it is so beautiful. Perhaps it is difficult to grow?
Matt, thank you. :) The credit goes all to the plants, they are very easy plants. I don't have as much time for the garden as I should. :-[
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On more picture of two P.veitchii's, grown from seeds of unknown provenance. I'm thinking the plant with darker flowers must be a hybrid or something (even though it is the same height as others and flowers the same time), because it has so many petals in the flowers.
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Again from the deep South...Paeonia parnassica on Mt. Parnassus last week. Yes the colour is really so dark, almost incredible...there is no photoshop on the pics!
oh, what al lovely paeonia :D
(if it needs a name, I call it "queen of night")
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Some unusual peonies!
This one I found in a neglected garden 40 years ago. The root was very old and thick. Any suggestions for a name?
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Paeonia 'Joseph Rock'. Wow,what a stunner!
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wow matt, great fotos of the parnassica :D (salivation ;D)
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Paeonia 'Joseph Rock'. Wow,what a stunner!
Absolutely beautiful flower John but I think not 'Joseph Rock' - that is a particular cultivar name given to a plant that doesn't have the pink in the petals that your's shows. Full story of Rock and the peonies here; http://www.paeon.de/h2006/rocks_peony.html (http://www.paeon.de/h2006/rocks_peony.html)
Seed raised plants vary greatly. I've got one from HPS seed labelled P. rockii which is the classic pure white with maroon flares but one from AGS seed flowered for the first time this year (11 years after sowing!) and it is a big pink double just a hint of the flares if you part the petals to look - redeemed by a lovely light tea rose scent.
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Peony Society AGM/informal show yesterday at Wisley yesterday was a good day with some lovely peonies on display, mostly from Claire Austin and Jo Bennison. Some nice peonies in the gardens too, particularly P. officinalis in the herb garden and P. peregrina in the rock garden.
Lovely to meet Matteo too - SRGC forum members do get about!
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Athena
Fen Gong Wei Ji
Firelight
and P. peregrina on the rock garden
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The P. peregrina is absolutely sensational. That is not a red that you can ignore.
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So now a lot of heavy rain has finally stopped in Bavaria and the temperatures have
also risen about 6 ° C again :-)
.... and finally blooming - for the first time - Paeonia sterniana, or P. emodii ssp. sterniana
* happy *
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wow...sterniana. :o congratulation for this rare Paeonia and in such good condition. :D i'm searching for a long time for this Paeonia. is it grown from seed or imported from china? sometimes the wellknown chinese sources offer this plant, but i always got white obovata. does anybody else grow sterniana and can tell me a source (seed/plant)?
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Thank you Gail for the photos from the show, what a nice picotee peony :)
And P.peregrina. For some reason my garden is not so suitable for P.peregrina, I had a cultivar 'Sunshine' which suffered from root rot (or something like that), now I have one good seedling of P.peregrina, with one flower bud, I hope it survives until autumn when I can move it to my driest bed, but so far it is good.
P.sterniana is really nice! I'm also looking for the seeds, if anyone knows a source where to purchase them.
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Thanks, but I just got lucky. ;D
I had found in the "collection box" a great gardening
(at Illertissen/Germany) Paeonia a emodii. Only roots, no bud.
This is now came out here. Would also have what may be quite different.
I will by all means try to get seeds. However, the spread is already fixed!
regards
Bernd
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P.humilis 'Flore Pleno' is a very common peony in Finland, and I believe also in Sweden, but not so much in Europe. It grows in many old gardens and even in abandoned gardens among the grass, and I believe it is tracked down to at least the beginning of 1900 (if not earlier). It is called "juhannuspioni" (midsummer peony) here, even though it flowers in early June in south of Finland, about the same time as P. x festiva 'Rubra Plena'. I got my plant from my mother-in-law who had gotten hers from an old house where she remembers a big bush of it growing in 1930s. It is a very tough peony, but on the other hand very prone to root molds and best grown in rock garden with good drainage and no fertilizing, peculiar that it still can survive in almost wild state, but that is propably because it forms adventitious buds in the roots, and even if you dig it up, and even a tiny piece of root stays behind, it will start to grow from there.
It is about 50cm high, the leaves are glaucous blueish green, and hairy. It has usually two hairy carpels, and sometimes stamens, but not always. The flower is not very big, about 10cm.
The first two pictures were taken in sunlight, the third early morning today when the plant was still in shade. I moved my plant couple of years ago, so it still doesn't flower very much, but anyway I wanted to show this peony. :)
Is this peony known in Estonia, Latvia, Russia or other places?
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@Catwheazle
here a description of H.R. Flechter, 1959 of sterniana (source (http://www.paeo.de/aaa/04731.html)):
A perennial herb with glabrous stems 30-90 cm. high. Leaves alternate, biternate, including the petiole up to 30 cm. long; leaflets glabrous deeply cut into many narrow elliptic or narrow oblong-elliptic acuminate or acute segments up to 10 cm. long and 2 cm. broad, dark green above, glaucous below. Flowers solitary up to 8 cm. across. Sepals 4, the exterior lanceolate, foliaceous, longer than the petals, the interior ovate, apiculate up to 1.5 cm. long and broad. Petals white, obovate up to 3.5 cm. long, 2 cm. broad, thin and papery. Stamens with white filaments and yellow anthers. Carpels 3-4, glabrous, pale green. Follicles scarlet when mature, 2.5 cm. long, 1 cm. broad, seed indigo-blue.
P. mairei and P. emodi sit comfortably in Section Paeon, subsection Foliolatae F. C. Stern. In this subsection the species are all herbaceous and the lower leaves are cut into distinct leaflets all of which are entire; P. mascula Miller is typical of the subsection. P. sterniana, on the other hand, has its leaflets very deeply lobed or toothed and is quite clearly a member of Section Paeon, subsection Dissectifoliae F. C. Stern. In this subsection its nearest of kin is P. anomala L., widely distributed from the Ural Mountains to Lake Baikal in Central Asia. The fades of the two species is very similar, though P. sterniana lacks the lines of very short hairs along the veins on the upper leaf surface, which are so characteristic of P. anomala. P. veitchii Lynch, which wilson introduced from Szechwan for veitch in 1907, also is closely allied but is at once distinguished by having two or more flowers to a stem, whereas the flowers of P. sterniana always are solitary.
your plant is first flowering, a young plant, potted, and in my opinion the number of flowers per stem is not a significant character at this time, because when mature and planted in open soil maybe another flowering behaviour might be seen (more flowers per stem). why i get dubious about your sterniana is the number of carpels, only 2 (i can't see more in the second foto). maybe also a feature of being a young plant.
so i made some inquiries today. i had a talk with a staff of gaissmayer nursery/illertissen about their "emodi". he told me, that they got the plants from a dutch nursery as "emodi". meanwhile we know, that nurseries often sell emodi, but they mostly sell the hybrid 'Windflower' (both types "Early" + "Late"). i have one 'Windflower' in my garden, don't know whether the 'Early' or 'Late' type. friends told me, that the 'Late' differs' from 'Early' in height. but i don't remember which one is taller/lower). your sterniana looks different to my 'Windflower' type, but my stock is planted in garden for 6 years now and a big plant, yours is potted + a young plant. difficult to compare.
here a lot of fotos of the true sterniana, photographed by dr. burkhardt on a china expedition 2006, area of Bomi (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Location_of_Bomi_within_Xizang_%28China%29.png) in south-east tibet, the only known habitat of sterniana: sterniana fotos (http://www.paeon.de/h2006/burkhardt/china/html/19.html).
compare these with your plant please.
i fear, that the dutch nursery sold a 'Windflower' type to gaissmeyer nursery. you will find out, when you pollinate your plant and get no seed because the 'Windflower' is steril. the gaissmayer staff will send me some photos of their "emodi" plants, which still remain in the nursery, but are not for trade (maybe i get some). i asked him to make fotos of the habitus with details of number of carpels (if they flowered this year). so let's wait what i find out when i got his email.
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Super Thank you, although I'm a little disappointed. I'll get to all cases veruchen seeds.
.. hopefully it goes with my pseudo? "sterniana" not like the mlokosewitschii.
Although it sets seed every year, but unfortunately the always empty.
I am now trying to get hold ne second. Is this normal, or do I fear that because what's been crossed?
My plant is in soil, not in pot ! 5 shoots, 2 flowers single each on her own shoot.
Greetings
Bernd
PS: ... from the photos I can see no real difference to sternia. We'll see ....
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Hi again,
can you post a picture of your "windflower"? Whar are their parents ?
Thanks
Bernd
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today in Berlin in flower is a hybrid "white innocence"
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and near :)
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@greenspan
hi,
"windflower" is possible :-( ... but hope dies last. early windflower, a selection-of emodii should already blooming in May and have a broad grew. That does not fit with me. "late windflower" is said to have nodding flowers .'s a hybrid of emodii x beresowskii ..... does not fit :-)
I've dusted ... the tension remains, although I fear that it is tantamount to a "late windflower".
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Hi again,
can you post a picture of your "windflower"? Whar are their parents ?
Thanks
Bernd
Hi!
the parents of paeonia early windflower are P.veichii and P.emodi (Saunders 1939)
the parents of paeonia late windflower are P.beresowskii and P.emodi (Saunders 1939)
the parents of P.white innocence are P.lactiflora and emodi (Saunders 1947)
they are all beautifull (in my eyes) :D
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Hello Irm,
yes, you're right ... with the parents and that they are very pretty. It annoys me just a little that not only the orchids, the habit has spread to provide the plants with the wrong name. Not to mention what I have sown, already have several years in culture and will probably only see in a few years the flowers. Pity that there is no threat to reputable sources (dealer) for seeds and plants here. I had missed earlier order from the Archibalds :-(
Bernd
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@Catwheazle
today i received some photos of the "emodi" in gaissmayer's nursery (habitus, leaves, carpels).
beforehand...my conclusion is clear. gaissmaier has the hybrid 'Windflower', wrong labelled as emodi.
why i exclude emodi + sterniana:
gaissmayer's "emodi":
1. produce 2 or 3 carpels! => emodi has normally 1, rarely 2 carpels:
[attach=1] [attach=2]
2. the leaflets are deeply 2-3-lobed => emodi always entire
[attach=3]
two significant features of emodi are wrong => exclusion of emodi
3. carpels with densely hispid hairs => carpels of sterniana are glabrous (see photo (http://www.paeon.de/h2006/burkhardt/china/19/191221.jpg))! => exclusion of sterniana.
i checked my 'Windflower' (flowering ended):
1-3 carpels, densely hispid, lobed leaflets => the features of the parents emodi (hairy carpels) and anomala ssp. veitchii (lobed leaflets, number of carpels) mixed in one plant.
saunders noticed the parents for
'Late Windflower': berezowskii x emodi ... berezowskii is a synonym to anomala ssp. veitchii (Hong: revision of the anomala complex)
'Early Windflower': veitchii x emodi ...veitchii is a synonym to anomala ssp. veitchii (Hong: revision of the anomala complex)
maybe you have the 'Late Windflower' because of my 'Windflower' ended with flowering since a few days.
the 'Windflower' is called to be steril. i would also say so, but as i wrote some postings before, my 'Windflower' set 2 seedcorms, one germinated. but this happened only for one time within 6 years!
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Hi again,
can you post a picture of your "windflower"? Whar are their parents ?
i did ;) ...fotos on this page, posting # 152 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10274.150)
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Hi Greenspan,
Thank you for your efforts.
Although I find it sad that you're probably right, I find the whole thing very interesting. My plant has 2 carpels at both flowers. Let's see how that develops. I think, as you suspect :-( I will report!
Greetings
Bernd
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Two species from my garden today - a bit later than most years.
P rockii cv from seed and mlokosewitschii.
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@ Hoy .... great pictures! ;D
by the way....
Unfortunately, since my mlokosewitschii seems to be self-sterile, I bought seeds over the Internet.
As the seedlings look, it seems to be a hybrid >:(
What do you think? Could there be mascula it? Or is it possible that the mloko so round leaves can have?
Greetings
Bernd
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@Catwheazle
it's a daurica seedling. to classify daurica, grown in garden or seedlings of unknown origin in subspecies (e.g. ssp. mlokosewitchii, ssp. wittmanniana etc.) makes no sense in my opinion. if it will flower yellow in a few years, then be happy that this fits the plant of which most people have the imagination of a "real" mlokosewitschii. as Hong proved, the "mloko" can show different colours.
Hong "Paeonia (Paeoniaceae) in the Caucasus" (http://www.paeo.de/h2005/hong_dy/hong_caucasus.pdf) (pdf-file): Petal colour: All the previous taxonomists except for Albow (1895) divided this complex into two major groups using this character: yellow or red (or white)...[...]... Furthermore, in H99035 (Lagodekhi, type locality of both P. mlokosewitschii (yellow flowers) and P. lagodechiana (pink flowers)), we found all the colours mentioned above: white, pale yellow, yellow, pink, red and purple-red, or yellow but with red or pink periphery or a red spot at the base (Figs 5–9),
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Hi greenspan,
yes I know. :-( I had sown the seeds so just so I have a breeding partner for my mloko. Unfortunately, the only sets of empty seeds.
Is this normal, or maybe lags on dusting? I still have some other seeds of Halda .... I hope that there vote in the name.
Bernd
My God, scheme for the peonies is ..... :o
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@ Hoy .... great pictures! ;D
by the way....
Unfortunately, since my mlokosewitschii seems to be self-sterile, I bought seeds over the Internet.
As the seedlings look, it seems to be a hybrid >:(
What do you think? Could there be mascula it? Or is it possible that the mloko so round leaves can have?
Greetings
Bernd
Danke Bernd. Seems you have got an answer to your question - that's good as I am no expert ;)
Here are a few pictures from today: Paeonia obovata (I think, please tell if you don't agree). The flowers have a pink edge when they open, especially in shade, but soon become white.
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The tree peony P. lutea ludlowii is rather treelike - 3.5m and the rockii cv still has about 30 buds awaiting!
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Hoy, I think your white peony is P.obovata subsp willmottiae. The leaves and stamens look like in my plant, and I think there has sometimes been a very slight red in the edge of the flowers when they open, but not as much as in your plant, and not every year.
Does your plant set good seeds (I ask because mine doesn't and it would be interesting to know if there is a P.obovata subsp willmottiae which does and in what conditions)?
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@ Hoy beautiful plant. Your obovata :-)
and the ludlowii.... witout words. such a great plant ? How old is it ?
Please post pictures, when the flowers are open.
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Here are a few pictures from today: Paeonia obovata (I think, please tell if you don't agree). The flowers have a pink edge when they open, especially in shade, but soon become white.
[/quote]
more disgustingly beautiful plants from the north...my compliments!
m.
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Hoy, I think your white peony is P.obovata subsp willmottiae. The leaves and stamens look like in my plant, and I think there has sometimes been a very slight red in the edge of the flowers when they open, but not as much as in your plant, and not every year.
Does your plant set good seeds (I ask because mine doesn't and it would be interesting to know if there is a P.obovata subsp willmottiae which does and in what conditions)?
the petal color, filament color, the whole "look like" isn't a criteria to classify obovata to one of the two subspecies levels ssp. obovata or ssp. willmottiae. in my opinion, the subspecies classification can only be done by botanists who work with scientific methods to determine the ploidy level of a plant (e.g. diploid, tetraploid) + have the information about the origin of a plant. hong found out, that the different morphological characters (e.g. flower shape + color, petals orientation, filaments etc.) can appear even within the same population. as i understand Hongs work "Cytogeography and taxonomy of the Paeonia obovata polyploid complex (http://www.paeo.de/aaa/09382.html) (2001)" the reason to classify 2 subspecies is the ploidy-level, the leaf indumentum and the correlation to the geographical distribution of obovata.
"an extensive chromosome survey and the analysis of morphological characters show that the ploidy level is basically correlated with the geographical distribution and with the indumentum on the lower leaf surface. Thus, the recognition of one species with two subspecies is proposed: Paeonia obovata subsp. obovata, mostly diploid, widely distributed in the north, east and south of the distribution range and glabrous to sparsely pubescent or hirsute on the lower leaf surface, and subsp. willmottiae, tetraploid, limited to the west and with leaves densely hirsute or pubescent below."
Hong itself wrote, that because of leaf indumentum on the lower surface was an extremely variable character, he used a more or less arbitrary ;D system of six grades to measure the density of leaf indumentum with 0 indicating entirely glabrous, 1 very sparsely hirsute or pubescent with some hairs only along major veins, while 5 the most densely hirsute or pubescent (nearly entirely covered with hairs), and 2, 3 and 4 indicating intermediate states.
what is the grade of leaf indumentum of one of my obovata according to Hong's system? ...i have no idea except it isn't 0 and 1 ;D ;)
[attach=1]
also no idea about the ploidy level or any informations about the origin. and now? ;)
so for me it's enough to know "obovata" with some supplementary notes about flower shapes (e.g. "japonica-type", round or acute petal apex, color etc.)
here some fotos of my obovata, import plants from china (foto 2, 3, 4) + seed grown of unknown origin (foto 1; so called "japonica"-type) with different flower shapes:
[attach=2] [attach=3] [attach=4] [attach=5]
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Oh, great. Thanks for the link to the article! :o
Peonies are - it seems to me - verifiable real "adventure" ;-)
Bernd
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after HOY now GREENSPAN...more beautiful obovatas...it is a torture for me!
AMAZING!
M.
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Hi Leena, thank you for your suggestion. I have actually two plants and they are quite similar except for the other one having slightly smaller leaflets and flowers, on the other hand it bears the flowers higher above the foliage. I haven't checked the indumentum yet!I get some good seeds every year. If you are interested I can send you some when they are ripe.
Thank you Matt and Catwheazle!
Here are some more pictures. The yellow flowers of lutea ludlowii almost disappear at a distance, you have to come close to enjoy them. The plant is 3.5 x 4,5 m and about 25 years old. I had to remove a lot of stems on the garden side,as other plants suffocated underneath the dense canopy.
Today it is about 25 open flowers on the rockii cv.
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The pictures of rockii wouldn't come along.
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My P.obovata subsp willmottiae was bought from Carsten Burkhadt (www.paeon.de (http://www.paeon.de)) in 2006, I don't know it's ploidy, but it has very hairy undersides of the leaves and I trust the seller.
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leena, yes of course, i also trust burkhardt. 8) i guess he is very knowledgeable about peonies. he did a great work, gathering all informations he could get about the genus and making his extraordinary paeonia web poject. when i ever need informations about peonies, i use his knowledge base. unfortunately it seems, that he changed his interests and doesn't work any longer on his project (maybe i'm wrong). but informations are the one side, the other side is to draw conclusions. and this is what i try to do. if i'm wrong, i guess people find out, contribute new arguments and correct my conclusions. this is what i understand as a fruitful discussion. trusting is no argument. ;)
i asked my son to get the whole article of Hong about the obovata, because it seems, that Hong made pictures of the leaf indumentum grades. these pictures are missing in Hong's text at burkhardt's website. to get scientific papers like Hong's article, you must have a fee-based access to springer or other publishers. universities have such accesses and my son studies in switzerland at ETH. 8)
is it possible to show a foto of the lower leaf surface of your obovata? please try to do so to compare with mine. i'll check my other obovata, whether i can find differences in the grade of leaf indumentum. i'm quite sure, that i have none obovata with glabrous indumentum at the lower leaf surface. it won't help on to classify a subspecies rank, but it's just for interest, if differences would be seen.
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is it possible to show a foto of the lower leaf surface of your obovata? please try to do so to compare with mine. i'll check my other obovata, whether i can find differences in the grade of leaf indumentum. .
I will try to take photos tomorrow. :)
I don't know if I succeed, because I don't have macro lens and the hairs are so small, but I will try when there is more light tomorrow.
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I tried to take photos of the undersides of the leaves of P.obovata yesterday, but here is first yet another P.obovata. This is a second generation from wild, the seeds for the mother plant of my plant were collected from Mt Changbai, China, by Helsinki University Expedition. This is very different from other P.obovatas I have, the biggest difference is that it comes up and flowers about two to three weeks later than the other P.obovatas and P.obovata subsp willmottiae. This is typical for it also in other gardens where I know it grows. It is altogether more slender plant, the undersides of the leaves are almost glabrous, the flowers are quite small, much smaller than the flowers of other P.obovatas, and they keep their round shape most of the time. As garden plants I think the other P.obovatas, and especially P.obovata subsp willmottiae, are better.
The first picture was taken June 1st, when my other pink P.obovatas were already past flowering, and P.obovata subsp willmottiae had just opened it's flowers.
The flowering pictures were taken couple of days ago, June 10th.
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The photos of the undersides are not very good, my apologies :(. I would have needed a macro lens to have closer pictures, but at least you can see the differences in the hairs around the big veins.
I have four different P.obovata.
No 1 is P.obovata subsp willmottiae, most hairy undersides of the leaves
No 2 is early pink flowering P.obovata, grown from seed, less hairs than no 1
No 3 is late flowering slender P.obovata, seeds second generation from the wild, almost no hairs
No 4 is early flowering pink P.obovata, tall and very robust P.obovata, grown from seed, hairs about the same as no 2. They are also close to each other in other ways, the habitus, size and habitus of flowers, only this plant is more robust than no 2, but it might be due to the place it grows. The origin of the seeds for no 2 and 4 is different.
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thx leena for the leaves pics. they are good enough to see the hairs on the lower surface of the leaves. i didn't photograph mine. they show the same range of leaf indumentum like yours. yet another i found a specimen with glabrous leaf. didn't flower till now, but a chinese origin. got wrong labelled as "P. sterniana'. if you are interested...here a map of the distribution area of obovata (http://www.nefkom.info/data/misc/obovata_verbreitung.jpg) with notes on the ploidy-level + range of leaf indumentum from hongs article. quite interesting i think.
the different flowering time depends to the specific climate i think. my first two specimen of obovata from china had the same habitus, flower shape etc. but the one flowered 2 weeks before the other. my first thought was, that this must have to be an adaption to the specific climate, where the plant comes from. e.g. your very late flowering obovata from changbai mt. range is a cold area i guess (border between china, north korea + russia). so the plants there have to flower late...maybe that's the reason for this behaviour.
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You may be right about the flowering time correlating to the original place it grows.
Thank you for the link to the map. :)
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I wonder if anyone can help identify this tree paeony broken off in the high winds yesterday its first and only flower so far,apologies for the poor photo its one of these new fangled phones
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Chasw ,
this could be "Souvenir de Maxime Cornu" ...one of the first hybrids of tree peonies
Hans
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Thanks Hans ,will google that and see what it comes up with
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Some forum links to "Souvenir de Maxime Cornu" - looks like this one to me - a very glamorous lady she is, too!
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=1690.msg45680#msg45680 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=1690.msg45680#msg45680)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=3446.msg95738#msg95738 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=3446.msg95738#msg95738)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4975.msg153366#msg153366 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4975.msg153366#msg153366)
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Oh I do love this forum,solved within a few minutes :) :) :)
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Chas, attached are some actual photos I took about 2 weeks
ago from our P. Souvenir de Maxime Cru. Beware, the plants
can get huge and not everybody likes the dropping big and
heavy flowers.
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Thanks for those pictures Rudi,I had better not plant too much near it then ;D
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Paeonia lactiflora 'Bowl of Beauty'
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Paeonia lactiflora 'Bowl of Beauty'
That really is a beauty Michael
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Beautiful Bowl, Michael!
I like the colour of 'Souvenir de Maxime Cornu' although I prefere single or semi double flowers.
Here is a seedling which popped up in my garden. First flower.
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Do you remember my "sterniana" pictures?
.... which is probably not?
Well, it seems as if it has attached to the two flowers good seeds. If that is really viable, which speaks against a hybrid. If then the - unfortunately only - in 2 years should get their leaves vary from a hybrid this? be homogeneous in a pure way? ... or I've got a mistake?
regards
Bernd
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@ Catwheazle
why do you think your "sterniana" produces seeds? because of the plant is making bolls? 'Windflower' makes bolls, but no seed inside. ;) tell me, if the bolls are full of seed.
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<because of the plant is making bolls?
...yes, and because the bolls are big, not small like sometimes on my other paeonies, if they are
not polliniated.
You know the (german) saying: "hope dies last"
(I hope this translation in the English-speaking world is ok)
Bernd
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First time flowering for me since I bought them a couple of years ago.
Soshi
Nippon Beauty
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First time flowering for me since I bought them a couple of years ago.
Soshi
Nippon Beauty
Very lovely blooms, Graham - from Binny Plants by any chance?
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Very lovely blooms, Graham - from Binny Plants by any chance?
Thanks Maggi, but not from Binnys. Two separate nurseries from Gardening Scotland a couple of years ago. Not sure which but the names should be written on the back of the label which is what I usually do if I remember.
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Good purchases, Graham.
I've just had a look at the Binny's list and they are both there - I feel a visit there coming on - one of these years ::)
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Binnys have a Paeonia display garden as well as the sales area. You may need to leave your cash and cards at home. Or visit without Ian ;D
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I'd have to visit without Ian anyway - he'd never agree that we have room for more peonies..... :-X
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;D ;D ;D
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Hi,
It has been a variable year for Paeonia in our garden, with some, like P. mlokosewitschii, flowering sparsly, and others, like P. rockii, flowering profusely. Of the latter we have two plants right next to each other, a pink one which starts flowering a good two weeks earlier than the other, a white one. I have included a picture of the white one, the last flower of which blew apart a week ago.
Knud
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Peony season drawing to a close here but the delavayi-type obtained as Paeonia potaninii ex ACE 1047 from Pottertons is still going strong. I think I've posted this before but I really love it for it's late season and the fact that it is really attractive to bumble bees - found 4 jostling for space in one bloom; a veritable jumble of bumbles!
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Gail, really nice :).
Here my peonies have been now over for some time, we had unusually hot and dry June (it rained only once here, but in the west coast of Finland it has been raining too much), so everything went by too quickly.
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hi,
the season is coming to an end. P. mloko seed is ripe, P. mascula too.
rockii needs a little more time.
Is this really normal that since individual Schware seeds are like?
It almost seems that only the black ones are really "full".
regards
Bernd
[attachimg=1]
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Several of my paeonies did not flower this year - so no seed from them :'(
Yes, Bernd, it is true that only the black seeds are fertile.
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Thank you! I did not know yet ;D
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Paeonia growers may be interested in what Milan Sembol in the Czech Republic has available, see http://www.cypripediums.net/rostliny/pivonky-bylinne-i-drevite/ (http://www.cypripediums.net/rostliny/pivonky-bylinne-i-drevite/)
If anyone is interested I have some more details, including an English translation (Google) from Czech, send me an email. His prices are in Czech Koruna and the latest exchange rate I've seen is £1 = 32.7 Koruna