Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: zephirine on March 08, 2013, 08:40:09 AM
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Hello dear galanthophiles...
A friend of mine, who lives in Lorraine (France) discovered this spring that many of her G. nivalis had developed a second row of inner segments, longer than the "normal ones", like in the picture attached.
Please follow the link for more pictures, and a text (in french, sorry! ;D) about them :
nivalis with petticoat (http://le-jardin-de-berthille.over-blog.com/article-histoire-de-tepales-115905344.html)
Have you ever met such a snowdrop? Does it have a specific name?
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Well what a coincidence, we were visiting friends in North Norfolk and were shown one snowdrop showing exactly the same tendency amongst a clump which were 'normal'. I like the term nivalis with petticoat ;D
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;D Thank you Brian.
Many of her snowdrops show such a "petticoat" in her garden. She doesn't know whether this feature was present in the previous years or not (she seldom looks under the skirts of her flowers, you know... ;D)
Do you think it could be linked to specific soil/weather conditions? Or could it be a stable feature???
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I would suspect that it may be linked to the weather conditions we have had in the last couple of years, though I do not know. This snowdrop was in a clump in a garden that opens for the National Garden Scheme too, the owners are always gardening and looking at their snowdrops and it is the first time they have spotted this. It would be nice to think that it is a stable feature, but like finding four petalled snowdrops the only thing to do is to mark them and separate them from the rest later in the season then just be patient and watch them in future years.
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I thought ingenuously that Galanthus were males! Do you mean that they could still become fashion victims? ;D
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I thought ingenuously that Galanthus were males! Do you mean that they could still become fashion victims? ;D
That made me smile, but we always speak of a bit of sunshine helping them to lift their skirts so I had always assumed they were females or cross dressers ;D
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the only thing to do is to mark them and separate them from the rest later in the season
Or indeed do it now whilst it is completely unambiguous which flowers show this feature. There is a a bit more risk involved in digging up the snowdrops now but it sounds as if your friend has plenty of them.
then just be patient and watch them in future years.
Even a snowdrop with a weak tendency to produce petticoats (i.e. say one year in four on average) would still be an intersting curiosity which I would be happy to grow in my garden.
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That made me smile, but we always speak of a bit of sunshine helping them to lift their skirts so I had always assumed they were females or cross dressers ;D
Any scottish opinion in the audience? ;D
Even a snowdrop with a weak tendency to produce petticoats (i.e. say one year in four on average) would still be an interesting curiosity which I would be happy to grow in my garden.
Well, my friend just clarified that she had already seen these petticoats last year, in fact! So it seems that the tendancy could be more than "weak", there...and there is a possibility that this form is stable! All the more considering the number of them in her garden! (seedlings with inherited petticoat?)
Her soil is fairly acidic, while mine is more or less alkaline. She will send me one of the Petticoat nivalis in the coming weeks, and I'll try it here to see if the petticoat comes back next year... interesting indeed!
Thank you all (from my friend and me) for your input! :-*
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Well, my friend just clarified that she had already seen these petticoats last year, in fact! So it seems that the tendancy could be more than "weak", there...and there is a possibility that this form is stable!
Yes, but not necessarily. For example, in 2003 I acquired 5 snowdrops of a particular type, all probably the same clone. Now I have around 100 of these. Each year, several of these will produce two flowers on the same scape but it's not the same bulb each year. So although each year (say) 5% of all the flower stalks will be double headed, that is because each individual bulb has a 5% chance of doing this. A 5% chance would be a (very) 'weak tendency'.
Even so, I don't think this type of flowering behaviour has ever been recorded before in snowdrops so it is very interesting. Tell your friend you need a few of them in order to gather more accurate statistics on stability.
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I would be delighted to grow one in my garden here in Bristol if you would like me to report back over the next couple of years.
Bronwyn
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Me too, but as I also have alkaline soil, I could not think of anything I could offer that Zephirine does not already have.
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Dear Zephirine,
Of course, we Scots always have an opinion on EVERYTHING!
The petticoats of this 'drop are rather pretty and at first I thought that this was a very strange happening- then I gave some thought to the kinds of extra parts that sometimes appear in double 'drops. In those there are occasionally longer pieces, usually only one or two, which would, I think, be quite close to the petticoat segments if the double flower were to be dissected out to show the longer segments more clearly.
I'll have to have a look around later to see if I can find a photo to clearly explain what I mean.
If these longer segments are indeed similar to the petticoat segments, then I would think it is more likely that such "extras" might be a widespread genetic possibility and so stand a good chance of being, or becoming, stable.
(as to whether any of these flowers might be cross-dressers: I have no idea! ;D)
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What a fun drop - I always have a soft spot for ones that choose to differ from the norm. :)
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Thank you for your suggestions, Alan, Bronwyn and John! I will transmit them to my friend, though I think she will prefer to test them locally first, not to give experts like you an embarassing false joy... and a simple nivalis in the end! :-[
She says she found them all in the ditches, along the roads around her home (in a fairly wooded area at the foot of the Vosges mountains), and transplanted them every other year in her garden.
She went back to the places where they came from these days, but didn't see any petticoats there.
Thank you dear Maggi for your interesting comparison with doubles! I'd really like to see an example of what you mean (I don't have any doubles here, I definitely prefer simple ones!)
For comparison purposes, here is a - hum - "anatomic" view of the petticoat.
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I think she will prefer to test them locally first, not to give experts like you an embarassing false joy...
My collection is littered with 'one-year-only' snowdrops and 'once-in-a-blue-moon' snowdrops that were looking very interesting the year I found them but have never (or only very rarely) done the same thing since. So I have become very used to false joy.
The anatomic view is really interesting and makes the snowdrop look even more fascinating and unusual.
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The anatomic view is really interesting and makes the snowdrop look even more fascinating and unusual
I fully agree with you, Alan! It is interesting to see how the 3 rows are rotated from the previous one: the inner "normal" segments are rotated 60° from the outer segments, and the 3 "petticoat" segments are rotated again, thus becoming parallel to the outer segments. Mother Nature definitely likes symmetry, don't you thinK? ;)
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I see that there are small green markings on the tips of the outer petals. Do they all show this feature?
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She says she found them all in the ditches, along the roads around her home (in a fairly wooded area at the foot of the Vosges mountains), and transplanted them every other year in her garden.
She went back to the places where they came from these days, but didn't see any petticoats there.
Do you mean that your friend has populated her garden with snowdrops from the locale and has subsequently found the petticoat type amongst those in her garden but not elsewhere? Or do you mean that your friend has found the petticoat type growing wild in previous years and selected those to collect for her garden? I just want to be clear because I think this is very interesting; a whole new type of snowdrop, in fact.
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I'll have to wait for my friend to answer your first question, Alan (re. green markings).
As for the second question, your first sentence is correct: garden populated from the local snowdrop population, petticoats found later in her garden among them, but no petticoat found in the local population outside her garden.
Funny enough that Brian saw one similar snowdrop with a petticoat in a park, precisely this spring...It would be a strange coincidence that a "new type" of snowdrop, as you put it, appears twice, the same year or nearly, in so remote places...
So let's not be too enthusiastic (though it's hard!!!) , it still has to be confirmed in the coming years!
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Sorry, I'll try to curb my enthusiasm. But even if these particular snowdrops revert to normal next year, there is still the possibility of there being a stable form waiting to be discovered.
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Funny enough that Brian saw one similar snowdrop with a petticoat in a park, precisely this spring...
The garden we saw that one example is pictured here and labelled 'Fairy Rings?' - also where 'Smiley' originated.
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=2604.msg76656#msg76656 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=2604.msg76656#msg76656)
It was the only example we noticed in the whole garden and was in a named clump (can't remember which but say 'S.Arnott'). The amazing thing to me was that it was the previous day!
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The amazing thing to me was that it was the previous day!
...and unfair enough, Brian, that only one such snowdrop appeared to a devoted dropholic like you....while dozens appeared to a mere general gardener like my friend (and me!) ;D
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Brian, I think you should suggest to the garden owner that they find and isolate that particular snowdrop, so they ( and we) can see if it does the same thing next year. To my mind, the fact that we now know it is not alone makes it all the more interesting.
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...and unfair enough, Brian, that only one such snowdrop appeared to a devoted dropholic like you....while dozens appeared to a mere general gardener like my friend (and me!) ;D
Yes I quite agree, very unfair :) I know if they had a lot they would certainly be passing them around.
Alan we have already suggested that to them and they are doing so.
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I see that there are small green markings on the tips of the outer petals. Do they all show this feature?
According to my friend, no, Alan, not all the "petticoated" plants have green marks.
She has therefore isolated those with green tips, and planted them in a different place. Thanks for pointing it out!
There is another point that I noticed in her pictures. Two "anatomic" views, on her blog, show two rather different plants. (The outer segments have been removed). The length ratio between the petticoat segments and the inner segments, is quite different! And the notch, at the end of the inner segments, is different too.
Does it mean that the various individuals might not come from a single, "first-of-a-kind", petticoated" variant? (I mean, since vegetative reproduction results in similar characteristics). Could those two individuals result from seed propagation from one original plant? Or do vegetative replicas also show variants?
As someone on a french forum noticed, there seem to be a few anthers remaining... which could mean the plants are not fully sterile...
What do you think ? (I'm not very familiar with detailed anatomo-botanical matters, I'm afraid :-[)
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Does it mean that the various individuals might not come from a single, "first-of-a-kind", petticoated" variant? (I mean, since vegetative reproduction results in similar characteristics). Could those two individuals result from seed propagation from one original plant? Or do vegetative replicas also show variants?
There is a famous snowdrop, 'Atkinisii' (now annoyingly renamed 'James Backhouse') that often produces odd flowers but never exactly the same oddness two years running. Or 'Mrs Thompson' that usually produces extra petal or even extra flowers but different from bulb to bulb. So yes, vegetative replicas can show variants, but equally well you could have seedlings which may or may not be from the same parent (if it's a recessive characteristic in the local gene pool).
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Zephirine, just out of interest, would it be possible to post links to your friend's blog and the French forum where this snowdrop has been discussed? I can always use Google Translate for the more difficult French words.
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Zephirine gave the link to her friend's blog in her first post:
http://le-jardin-de-berthille.over-blog.com/article-histoire-de-tepales-115905344.html (http://le-jardin-de-berthille.over-blog.com/article-histoire-de-tepales-115905344.html)
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Oops yes. Zephrine made her embedded link so well that I missed that it was there. And I was mesmerised by the picture!
If Zephrine can post it, you wouldn't mind hosting a link to somebody else's forum, would you Maggi?
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If Zephrine can post it, you wouldn't mind hosting a link to somebody else's forum, would you Maggi?
Alan, the SRGC has no problems whatsoever with sharing information about and between other sites.
This is something that we actively encourage, and we have always done so.
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Zephirine, just out of interest, would it be possible to post links to your friend's blog and the French forum where this snowdrop has been discussed? I can always use Google Translate for the more difficult French words.
There's a French Forum?
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There's a French Forum?
There is indeed! There may be more than one- the one I know is Plantes-Passions:
http://plantes-passion.forumactif.fr/ (http://plantes-passion.forumactif.fr/)
I haven't yet checked to see if this is where the discusion has been about these 'drops.........
.... yes, it is! http://plantes-passion.forumactif.fr/t4593p15-galanthus-2012-13 (http://plantes-passion.forumactif.fr/t4593p15-galanthus-2012-13)
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Thanks Maggi; I found an apt quote.
Les fous de la Galanthe s'arrachent ces bizarreries végétales à prix d'or !
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Thanks Maggi; I found an apt quote.
"Les fous de la Galanthe s'arrachent ces bizarreries végétales à prix d'or !"
Yup, it is not only the Greeks who "have a word for it"......... :D
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Here are some links to photos, both in the forum and elsewhere, of 'drops, mostly doubles, which show a exta floral segments which I think are getting close to the"petticoat" segments shown in the snowdrops of Zeph's friend.
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4040.msg106597#msg106597 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4040.msg106597#msg106597)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4921.msg134882#msg134882 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4921.msg134882#msg134882)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=3035.msg76942#msg76942 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=3035.msg76942#msg76942)
http://www.magdaindigo.co.uk/portfolio/photo/232 (http://www.magdaindigo.co.uk/portfolio/photo/232)
http://www.pottertons.co.uk/pott/view_product.php?pid=2877 (http://www.pottertons.co.uk/pott/view_product.php?pid=2877) Hill Poe on Rob Potterton's site
http://greenforks.com/2009/02/snowdrop-temptation/ (http://greenforks.com/2009/02/snowdrop-temptation/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14230388@N03/4360079054/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14230388@N03/4360079054/#)
http://www.galanthus.co.uk/snowdrop/Nivalis-Flore-Pleno (http://www.galanthus.co.uk/snowdrop/Nivalis-Flore-Pleno)
http://www.plantsgaloreonline.co.uk/bulbs/spring_flowering_bulbs/snowdrop_double_galanthus_bulbs_10_per_pack.html (http://www.plantsgaloreonline.co.uk/bulbs/spring_flowering_bulbs/snowdrop_double_galanthus_bulbs_10_per_pack.html)
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Wow, that's a superb bit of research Maggi.
The snowdrops we typically call 'doubles' are actually flore pleno (or similar Latin) meaning that they have multiple extra petals, not just twice the normal number. Typically there might be zero or one extra outer petals and many extra inner petals. Rarely one sees a true double snowdrop like 'Godfrey Owen' which has twice the normal number of petals, both inner and outer, with the outer petals at least, still in the single tier of a single snowdrop. But these 'petticoat' snowdrops are one-and-a-half rather than double with just three extra petals that are intermediate in nature between normal inner and outer petals and on a third inner tier. And all the photographs show them to be very perfect and symmetrical.
So I still think these 'petticoat' snowdrops are very distinct and, excepting Brian's find, unique.
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Yes, I think the petticoat flowers are quite "other" - but the photos of doubles with one or two long extra segments as part of their flowrs show that there is a fairly widespread possibility to make such segments - the petticoats are making these in a very neat and regular fashion, which I would HOPE means they might be more likely to be both stable and healthy. :)
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Good grief, I've been drawn into a discussion on what might be a new snowdrop type - ::)
I'm off to lie down in a darkened room- with luck this folly may pass....... ;)
Zephirine- see what you have done?!
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Have yourself some chocolate Maggi, that'll help you feel normal again ;D ;D
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Yes, fantastic research work, Maggi!!! How did you did that??? Thank you!!!!
It shows perfectly how Galanthus have a natural tendency to produce such transformed anthers in the center!
Ian's "odd finds" (third link) are pretty close, as if Mother Nature had tried hard to create a Petticoat there, but failed to succeed completely at that moment...
But I agree with Alan,the geometry and regularity of mu friend's Petticoats, combined with their natural and easy propagation in her garden, are good signs of a stable form.
I also have noticed a G. rizehensis with 4 outer segments in my garden this year, but I'm pretty sure this won't happen again, or at least not with this bulb. They just have a hiccup from time to time, like me! ;)
I'm sorry (but delighted ! :-[) to have dragged you there,dear Maggi ! ;D
Thank you all for your help!!!
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Hi , thanks for putting these links Maggi, not only for the pictures of the snowdrops but I also recognised myself in one of them : 3rd link 3rd photo just in front the lady with the hat that's me :). Good memories of my trip to Scotland some years ago !!!
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As a new member of the forum, I have been browsing some of the older posts which looked interesting. This one reminded me of one of my previous interests.
From the 70s through the 90s, ( until the deer developed more of a taste for them than I had) I was a very avid hemerocallis gardener with a special interest in double forms. In these plants there are 3 main forms of doubles:
1. 3 of the 6 anthers become petaloids
2. All 6 of the anthers become petaloids
3. The anthers and style become a complete flower and this repeats 2 or 3 times giving 12, 18, 24, etc petaloids
These three forms appear to be controlled by different genes which interact.
This 'petticoat' galanthus looks to me to be like the type 1. above. Can't tell from the photo, but how many anthers are present in these? Would be of interest.
Geo