Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: Anthonyh on February 05, 2013, 12:53:49 PM
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I just thought I'd share some pictures of a green-tipped woronowii I found in a garden centre last year. I'm not very good at adding pictures... but if this works... first picture is from last year, showing the pot of woronowii and the others are from this year. It seems to be stable, and I now have a flowering size plant and two smaller daughter bulbs although they were attacked by slugs this year whilst in a frame (despite pellets) so they're all now in a greenhouse. The final picture only has green dots on the inner segment, which I believe is common... but it's an interesting combination of markings from a single garden centre pot.
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A nice find Anthony - always exciting to find something different in the many pots in garden centres. I have found some over the years but sadly they have never been strong growers and only lasted a year or two.
Fingers crossed your find turns out to be a good do'er.
I am sure you have seen it before - but here is a pic from here last year of "woronowii 'Cider with Rosie'"
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Thanks John,
It must be frustrating and a shame when nice looking plants are found, only to find they disappear or are weak. I deliberately kept this for a year to see what it was like, but I'll reserve my final judgement until I've had it a bit longer, and can see what the daughter bulbs are like.
Thanks for the pic. I was going to ask those of you who have or have seen 'Cider with Rosie' what you think of it. I haven't even seen it yet... I'll see if they have it at Colesbourne this weekend. I also saw there was a very similar woronowii (found by Valentin Wijnen?) in the IRG e-magazine Maggie mentioned on the forum recently... so I'm not expecting it to make my fortune... I just like it!
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A nice find Anthony, I hope it proves stable for you. I bought 'Cider with Rosie' last year and notice that there are four pairs of leaves this year so it will be interesting to see how many flowers I will get. Hope you find one at the weekend.
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Thanks Brian,
That would be a pleasing rate of increase... I hope you get a nice little clump of flowers, and that we might see some pictures on here!
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Being green tipped for a second year must be a good sign for your woronowii
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I have a clump, badly needs dividing, of what were green tipped woronowii. I was working in a garden centre at the time so took the oportunity to remove all green tipped and repot them together so I could buy them. I bought around 10. I now have around 30 and none have been green again.
This year I found a green tipped elwesii elwesii very like Green Brush.
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I hope your elwesii is stable. I have a few in the garden which sometimes have tiny green tips, and other years they don't... I find it very odd.
It's a shame your woronowii haven't repeated the green tips, were they like mine? I'd been waiting and worrying about this one... expecting it to have a plain flower this year.
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I must look for photos of mine
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Hasn't anybody looked at my profile picture yet?
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Hasn't anybody looked at my profile picture yet?
Are you logged as two people?
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I thought your avatar was the same as shown above
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Have you got a green tipped woronowii Steve? I can't work out how to enlarge your profile pic?
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Yes Anthony,He is now six years old.I would love to post pictures,but i don't know how.Help. ??? ??? ???
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I'm fairly new to this. I have to open pictures from my camera with Microsoft Office Picture Manager, go to the 'picture' tab. Click on 'resize' and there's a box to reduce the size of the picture so that it's within the limits of the forum (for my camera I have to reduce it to 25% original size). Save it somewhere and then click on the 'attachments' option when you type a post... and find it again... That's just how I do it, I'm sure others can do a better job of explaining things...
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Yes Anthony,He is now six years old.I would love to post pictures,but i don't know how.Help. ??? ??? ???
Anthony- avatars cannot be enlarged.
Steve - I've sent you an email of helpful photo posting hints!
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Thanks anthony,I'll give it ago tomorrow.
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Steve- if resizing is the problem ( I've sent you tips on posting pix) then there is this new gadget from the forum to help:
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9993.0 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9993.0) ;D 8)
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Yes Anthony,He is now six years old.I would love to post pictures,but i don't know how.Help. ??? ??? ???
This post tells you how to do it.
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=65.msg132875#msg132875 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=65.msg132875#msg132875)
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I found such kind G. woronowii in 2009.
(http://cs1935.userapi.com/u6450879/22340033/x_26454609.jpg)
And another kind
(http://cs1935.userapi.com/u6450879/22340033/x_f26b52d3.jpg)
They increase slowly.
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Both are beautiful Olga - thank you for showing the pictures.
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Wonderful Olga, it is really amazing that so many of the things we hope and strive for are out there, in the wild, created by Nature. Thanks for showing us they are stunning.
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Welcome to the forum Steve. Hope Maggi's help means you won't remain Grumpy Steve. ;)
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I found such kinds of G. woronowii in 2009.
They increase slowly.
Olga, there can be few people who have found so many good snowdrops in the wild as you have done on so many occasions! 8)
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For a change I will add Galanthus woronowii which I found in expeditions :)
Galanthus woronowii
[attachimg=1]
Galanthus woronowii
[attachimg=2]
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Hello Natalia,
a very fine findling!!! Looks like a (starting) VIRESCENS - type.
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Natali, all our Russian friends introduce us to amazing plants!
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Thanks, friends!
The nature of Russia is full of incredible treasures!
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What a day this is turning out to be! First Olga shows us her wonderful finds - and then Natalia shows us a 50% green covered woronowii.
WOW! :o
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Fantastic,they are all wonderfull
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Agreed. They are all very nice... I especially like Natalia's 'virescent' one. I don't know about everyone else, but pictures like these make me dream of being a plant hunter... Thanks for sharing them.
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Olga and Natalia, superb G.woronowii, thanks for showing here what we would otherwise never get to see.
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The nature of Russia is full of incredible treasures!
...and we are very grateful for you sharing them with us, especially the virescent one :o
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Yes many thanks Olga and Natalia, those are lovely. I was of the opinion that woronowii showed very little variation. Obviously wrong again :o :o :o
Chris
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Chris G. woronowii shows as much variation as others. They just should to be found. I found many different green marked, poculiform and some strange forms. The law of homologous series works.
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Olga and Natalia--- I guess it would be redundant to say WOW again so I will say amazing!!!
Grumpy--- You haven't posted your photo yet so I thought I would tell you how I resize. I use the free Google software Picasa to organize my photos. I highly recommend Picasa because it is easy to use and has so many great features. I recently sold camellia photos to the New York Times taken with a point and shoot camera and using Picasa to enhance them (please don't tell the Times). In Picasa, you would click on/select the photos you want to use for the post, click export, chose the size you want to use for export (for the forum I guess I now need to go down from 800 pixels to 600), and then export them. The photos will go to a new folder in Picasa and also in My Pictures (or whatever its called on your computer) on your hard drive. Then when you are doing your post on the forum, you just browse to that folder in My Pictures and download the altered/resized photos. It sounds very complicated but it is really easy. If you want to pursue this I would be happy to answer any further questions. Carolyn
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I use the free Google software Picasa to organize my photos.
Whoops I should have read this before my PM Carolyn ::)
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Yes, friends - you are absolutely right - G.woronowii has a set of very interesting variations and with green spots, and others - last year I found here such freak.
I am sorry - quality very unimportant, but an idea of it gives. This G.woronowii has two rows of petals - one under ovary, the second over it. Both rows of petals are developed normally - can how be judged at the time of detection.
Galanthus woronowii
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завязью = ovary
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Wow, absolutely amazing! I never saw a snowdrop like that, Natalia.
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Natalia and Olga you have lovely green tipped and virescent woronowii
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This G.woronowii has two rows of petals - one under ovary, the second over it.
It seems like the snowdrop equivalent of a hose-in-hose primula.
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It seems like the snowdrop equivalent of a hose-in-hose primula.
It happens sometimes. There is one place with lots of such kind plants. This clump shows it's not a stable characteristic. Plants become usual next year.
(http://cs10136.userapi.com/u6450879/130200797/x_6e24258c.jpg)
But sometimes they can be so attractive . :)
(http://cs10136.userapi.com/u6450879/130200797/x_05f4caa2.jpg)
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Small correction - such pieces are quite widespread - I found them in three places. It is amusing that in the same populations the galanthus often meets green spots on petals :)
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It happens sometimes. There is one place with lots of such kind plants. This clump shows it's not a stable characteristic. Plants become usual next year.
But sometimes they can be so attractive . :)
ohhhhhh!! me too - must pour oil on monstrous woronowii flames :-* A clone found by our small travel galanthus enthusiast group somewhere in heights of the Western Transcaucasia... stable in the garden each spring, I would name it G. woronowii "Bella Ramondovna".
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stable in the garden each spring, I would name it G. woronowii "Bella Ramondovna".
Oh really? :) Hope it increases well. ;)
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Oh really? :) Hope it increases well. ;)
Olga - here the pic of it in my garden last spring!
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Olga - here the pic of it in my garden last spring!
Very optimistic!
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Remarkably, means and the hose-in-hose option can quite repeat: )
And time will show that will turn out in reality...
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Very optimistic!
yeeep)) as you remember it's those clone there all we observed in March 2011 ;D the same is on your second pic as I suppose)))
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yeeep)) as you remember it's those clone there all we observed in March 2011 ;D the same is on your second pic as I suppose)))
Yes! :) There were some other clones. Mine turned to ordinary flowers. :-\ As well as some grin-tipped.
Are you going to sow seeds?
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Yes! :) There were some other clones. Mine turned to ordinary flowers. :-\ As well as some grin-tipped.
Are you going to sow seeds?
sorry, nicht((( it doesn't produce any seed(((( should be unbalanced polysomic sterile mutant or even doesn't make viable gametes (((( only a vegetative propagation!
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sorry, nicht((( it doesn't produce any seed(((( should be unbalanced polysomic sterile mutant or even doesn't make viable gametes (((( only a vegetative propagation!
Could it be a sign of decease?
As I remember bulbs in that clump had different flowers. Some more strange and some less.
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Could it be a sign of disease?
As I remember bulbs in that clump had different flowers. Some more strange and some less.
yes, Olga, it could be (even it seems rather!!) a result (such exotic greenish appearance and plant infertility) of some Phytoplasma ssp. activity like in this my Chugaister nivalis plant... but any case for both plants I should prove the presence of microorganism in tissues by PCR-method, e.g....
the same syndrome-pattern we could easily observe with certainty in genus Trillium, but in this case the Phytoplasma infection for such green-flowered trilliums is proved at analytic level.
see here http://www.carsoncity.k12.mi.us/~hsstudent/wildflowers00/liliaceae/phytoplasma.html (http://www.carsoncity.k12.mi.us/~hsstudent/wildflowers00/liliaceae/phytoplasma.html)
so, I suppose ALL! green/greenish-flowered snowdrops (incl. legendary 500 euro-Green Mile, Green Tears, Rosemary Burnham, etc.) could be generated through the banal phytoplasma infection.... imho
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'Chugaister' is looking as wonderful as ever Dimitri. ;D
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'Chugaister' is looking as wonderful as ever Dimitri. ;D
Oh, thanks, John! I put both 2 bulbs of it in a far corner of my garden for fear to transfer the potential pathogen to other plants...
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Oh, thanks, John! I put both 2 bulbs of it in a far corner of my garden for fear to transfer the potential pathogen to other plants...
It would be a pleasure for me to see that happen to a yellow. ;) ;D
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It would be a pleasure for me to see that happen to a yellow. ;) ;D
... to a highly virused yellow, John ;)
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But virused in a good 'spikey flower' way - rather than a horrible 'stripey leaved' way. ;D
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But virused in a good 'spikey flower' way - rather than a horrible 'stripey leaved' way. ;D
mmmm I think in this one case it would be rather both "stripey flower-spikey leafed" way :-X
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Dimitri, if the green outer segment colouring (virescens) in snowdrops like Green Mile was caused by phytoplasma, surely those snowdrops with green outers would pass the infection to other snowdrops through sap-sucking insect vectors, and through mixing of sap by the hands of growers when picking flowers, propagating bulbs etc. ? But in gardens this does not seem to happen.
Can phytoplasma infection be transmitted in seed?
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Dimitri, if the green outer segment colouring (virescens) in snowdrops like Green Mile was caused by phytoplasma, surely those snowdrops with green outers would pass the infection to other snowdrops through sap-sucking insect vectors, and through mixing of sap by the hands of growers when picking flowers, propagating bulbs etc. ? But in gardens this does not seem to happen.
Can phytoplasma infection be transmitted in seed?
Martin, please see here http://papilio.ab.a.u-tokyo.ac.jp/planpath/phyto-genome/what.htm (http://papilio.ab.a.u-tokyo.ac.jp/planpath/phyto-genome/what.htm)
and this one short thesis as to someone gardener green-flowered snowdrop breeding programs http://www.placanet.org/archivo/_EN/Workshop_abstracts.pdf (http://www.placanet.org/archivo/_EN/Workshop_abstracts.pdf)
Are phytoplasmas transmitted through seed?
Joseph Owusu Nipah1, Phil Jones2, Jennifer Hodgetts1 and Matt Dickinson1
1 Plant Sciences Division, University of Nottingham, Sutton Bonington Campus,
Loughborough, LE12 5RD, UK
2 Plant Pathogen Interactions Division, Rothamsted Research, Harpenden,
Hertfordshire, AL5 2JQ, UK
The principal means of transmission of phytoplasmas between plants is by phloemfeeding insects, although there are many phytoplasmas for which the vectors have yet to be identified. In addition, they can be transmitted experimentally by plant parasitic
dodder plants and by grafting infected plant material onto healthy plants. Recently there have been reports in which phytoplasma DNA has been detected in the seed and embryos of plants such as coconuts, alfalfa, tomato, oilseed rape and lime, along with
unconfirmed reports of phytoplasmas in progeny plants from this seed. Such a mode of transmission had previously been regarded as unlikely because there is no direct connection between the phloem sieve elements of plants and the developing embryo
or seed, but there have been reports of phytoplasmas in companion cells and parenchyma cells. The possibility of seed transmission has wide ranging implications for quarantine services worldwide, since seed is not routinely tested for the presence
of phytoplasmas. In this study, we have used nested PCR to detect phytoplasma DNA in peduncles, spikelets, male and female flowers, and 9 out of 52 embryos of West African Tall coconut palms infected with Cape St Paul Wilt Disease in Ghana and
also to detect Candidatus Phytoplasma asteris DNA in kernels from infected maize plants in Peru. In germination studies, fruits from infected coconut palms had higher germination rates than those from healthy palms indicating that infected fruits retain
the ability to germinate. However, no phytoplasmas were detected in seedlings derived through embryo in-vitro culture and we have as yet been unable to find any conclusive evidence that these pathogens are transmitted to cause disease in progeny
palms.
regards,
Dimitrio.
edited to fix broken link
M :)
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I rather prefer to collect and select not green but like this one nivalis form found by me in one forest in the wild in Kiev vicinities ;) Is it really beautiful??? ::) that I really fear to infect it via this Chugaister one....
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That is lovely Dimitri, I really like long petalled snowdrops and when they are swept up like that they are very attractive.
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I rather prefer to collect and select not green but like this one nivalis form found by me in one forest in the wild in Kiev vicinities ;) Is it really beautiful??? ::) that I really fear to infect it via this Chugaister one....
I really like that too Dimitri - very pretty.
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I really like that too Dimitri - very pretty.
well done, guys! ;D 3:0 in favor of not-500 euro-green-flowered snowdrops!!!!!!!!! :-*
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Dimitri, if the green outer segment colouring (virescens) in snowdrops like Green Mile was caused by phytoplasma, surely those snowdrops with green outers would pass the infection to other snowdrops through sap-sucking insect vectors, and through mixing of sap by the hands of growers when picking flowers, propagating bulbs etc. ? But in gardens this does not seem to happen.
Can phytoplasma infection be transmitted in seed?
Martin - one more paper on phytoplasma transmission via seeds from here http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org/pdfarticles/vol64-2011-S157-S158calari.pdf (http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org/pdfarticles/vol64-2011-S157-S158calari.pdf)
Molecular evidence of phytoplasmas in winter oilseed rape, tomato and corn seedlings
Alberto CALARI1, Samanta PALTRINIERI1, Nicoletta CONTALDO1, Dimitrijka SAKALIEVA2, Nicola MORI3,
Bojan DUDUK4, Assunta BERTACCINI1
1Dipartimento di Scienze e Tecnologie Agroambientali, Patologia vegetale, Alma Mater Studiorum-University of
Bologna, Bologna, Italy
2Department of Phytopathology, Agricultural University, Plovdiv, Bulgaria
3Dipartimento di Agronomia Ambientale e Produzioni Vegetali, Entomologia, University of Padua, Italy
4Institute of Pesticides and Environmental Protection, Banatska, 31b, 11080 Belgrade-Zemun, Serbia
To evaluate the seed transmission of phytoplasmas in three herbaceous hosts material from different geographical origin but all
collected from infected or symptomatic mother plants was used. Almost 1,000 seeds were germinated under controlled conditions
and 652 seedlings were obtained. Samples were grouped in 214 samples and 74 of them resulted positive to phytoplasma presence
after three to 90 days from germination by nested PCR assays on 16S ribosomal gene. All the tested species i.e. winter oilseed
rape, tomato and corn resulted carrying phytoplasmas belonging to the ribosomal groups retrieved in the infected mother plants.
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Moreover, I suppose that all yellow-flowered snowdrop cultivars (e.g., Wendy's Gold, sandersii, etc...) might also be infected with phytoplasmas as this pathogen not only generates phyllodia-like perianth segments but equally impairs chlorophyll synthesis in some cases..... :'( :'(
Dimitri the Evil.
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Dimitri, if the green outer segment colouring (virescens) in snowdrops like Green Mile was caused by phytoplasma, surely those snowdrops with green outers would pass the infection to other snowdrops through sap-sucking insect vectors, and through mixing of sap by the hands of growers when picking flowers, propagating bulbs etc. ? But in gardens this does not seem to happen.
Can phytoplasma infection be transmitted in seed?
Martin, it could be explained quiet easily: the plant immune system effectively protects the snowdrops from pathogen invasion and potential persistence and multiplying in their tissues. BUT in very rare cases the plant innate immunity could be weakened in some exemplars that allows to the pathogen survive and effectively colonize the whole plant and their progeny both asexual (seeds) and sexual (bulbs, rhizomes, cuttings, etc.).... Diverse pathogens all deliver effector molecules (virulence factors) into the plant cell to enhance microbial fitness. Briefly, to overcome plant protection line it is not easy, but if it can be done by successful pathogen in a unique case, it chooses a strategy of complete and irreversible colonization of favorite plant entity with its further all descendants' infection..... so, the presence of a such plant in some local garden population highly increases the risk of pathogen transmission and phytoplasma syndrome expression at some rare plants in such population...
more details on a matter with described mechanisms are here http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7117/full/nature05286.html (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7117/full/nature05286.html)
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At last here are a couple of photos(i hope?) of our green tipped woronowii.It is just a day or two from flowering this year,and this will be it's sixth year of flowering.This has been chipped,but it only makes pips not bulblets,so you will have to wait while for one of these.It is a hardy plant with me in north yorkshire and hope you all like it.
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Dimitri, this link doesn't work: ttp://www.placanet.org/archivo/_EN/Workshop_abstracts.pdf:
Do you have another link to this document?
edited to show correct link, as shown by alanb, below
http://www.placanet.org/archivo/_EN/Workshop_abstracts.pdf (http://www.placanet.org/archivo/_EN/Workshop_abstracts.pdf)
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Dimitri, so basically the answer is that it's much more difficult for phytoplasmas to infect a plant than a virus, so that transmission of phytoplasma infection from one plant to another, through an insect vector or any other means of sap transfer, is much less likely to happen than transmission of a viral infection? So I could have a virescent phytoplasma infected snowdrop in my garden amongst other snowdrops for many years but the chances of that phytoplasma infection spreading to other snowdrops nearby would be quite low? Also, the chances of seedlings carrying the phytoplasma infection are low but not impossible, again because it's even less easy for phytoplasmas to be transmitted to seeds than for viruses to be transmitted to seeds (but again, not impossible).
Yet yellow snowdrops will often produce yellow seedlings if crossed with other yellow snowdrops.
Virescent snowdrops, on the other hand, do not seem to readily produce virescent seedlings (from the results of seed raising by myself and others).
I suppose you may be right about the possibility of virescens being caused by phytoplasma infections. With the yellow mark colouring, it still looks like something genetic is happening.
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At last here are a couple of photos(i hope?) of our green tipped woronowii.It is just a day or two from flowering this year,and this will be it's sixth year of flowering.This has been chipped,but it only makes pips not bulblets,so you will have to wait while for one of these.It is a hardy plant with me in north yorkshire and hope you all like it.
Great pictures, Steve !! Clear as a bell......
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http://www.placanet.org/archivo/_EN/Workshop_abstracts.pdf (http://www.placanet.org/archivo/_EN/Workshop_abstracts.pdf)
(remove the trailing colon).
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Thanks Alan, That link works.
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If virescens is caused by phytoplasma infection then I and other growers trying to raise new virescent snowdrops by crossing and back-crossing existing virescent snowdrops are wasting our time :(
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If virescens is caused by phytoplasma infection then I and other growers trying to raise new virescent snowdrops by crossing and back-crossing existing virescent snowdrops are wasting our time :(
Carry on. It should soon become apparent and worth any effort.
johnw
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John, I'll still try back-crossing to see what happens in the second generation. It looks like it's either recessive gene(s) or phytoplasma that's involved.
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At last here are a couple of photos(i hope?) of our green tipped woronowii.It is just a day or two from flowering this year,and this will be it's sixth year of flowering.This has been chipped,but it only makes pips not bulblets,so you will have to wait while for one of these.It is a hardy plant with me in north yorkshire and hope you all like it.
Oh yes Steve that looks very nice.
Chris
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That is lovely Dimitri, I really like long petalled snowdrops and when they are swept up like that they are very attractive.
Indeed it is.
And Grumpy Steve - your green tipped is lovely too.
It just goes to show that all the variation we see in nivalis and elwesii are most likely out there to be found in most species. 8)
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John, I'll still try back-crossing to see what happens in the second generation.
Martin / Anne
A bit of a diversion here, on the subject of back-crossing if you wanted to produce a large yellow would you for instance in the back-cross put Wendy's Gold or Big Boy's pollen back on (Big Boy x Wendy Gold)? I've never been clear on that, I guess it wouldn't hurt to try both pollens on different flowers of the hybrid.
johnw
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You'd need to back-cross the Big Boy x Wendy's Gold seedling with pollen from Wendy's gold (and/or put pollen from the seedling back onto Wendy's Gold. The aim is to get two of the recessive yellow gene in the second generation. Wen dy's Gold should (as a yellow) have two yellow recessive genbes (yy) while thecross with Big Boy would just have inherited one yellow gene from WG and one green gene from BB (yg). When you back cross the seedling with Wendy's gold, you get yy x yg which will give you some yy and some yg. The yy second generation seedlings should be yellow.
If you back-crossed the seedling (yg) with Big Boy (gg) you'd get yg x gg = yg and gg. There would be no yy seedlings in the second generation so no yellows.
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So would you have to be satisfied with at least one size down or worse from Big Boy in the first go at the back-cross? Presuming I guess the large gene is recessive as well.
Where would (BB x WG) x sibling go? Or even [(BB x WG) x WG] x sibling. Lose size?
johnw
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I was just coming back to this to say that another route would be to inter-cross the BB x WG seedlings. You'd get fewer yellows but you would get some, and they'd have more Big Boy blood in them. The hybrid vigour from an elwesii x plicatus cross would also help. But any cross involving back-crossing with Big Boy would be unlikely to produce any yellows (unless Big Boy carried the recessive yellow gene naturally - in which case it would have shown up in the first generation, with yellows appearing in the F1s).
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Dimitri, so basically the answer is that it's much more difficult for phytoplasmas to infect a plant than a virus, so that transmission of phytoplasma infection from one plant to another, through an insect vector or any other means of sap transfer, is much less likely to happen than transmission of a viral infection?
Yes.
So I could have a virescent phytoplasma infected snowdrop in my garden amongst other snowdrops for many years but the chances of that phytoplasma infection spreading to other snowdrops nearby would be quite low?
Yes, I suppose
Also, the chances of seedlings carrying the phytoplasma infection are low but not impossible, again because it's even less easy for phytoplasmas to be transmitted to seeds than for viruses to be transmitted to seeds (but again, not impossible).
Yes.
Yet yellow snowdrops will often produce yellow seedlings if crossed with other yellow snowdrops.
Should be proved, if it is due to simple Mendel genetics or to some stochastic infection transmission (virus, bacteria) in gametes then in seed tissues...
Virescent snowdrops, on the other hand, do not seem to readily produce virescent seedlings (from the results of seed raising by myself and others).
See first mention: it is difficult to transfer a pathogen trough seeds, so we obtain here mainly normal seedlings from virescent parent plants. We could try also simple intentional contamination I suppose the multiple weakened but not virescent plants, e.g. mosaic-virused plants, or frost-damaged plants, trough fresh sap injection and to wait for such virescence genesis in host plants with time...
I suppose you may be right about the possibility of virescens being caused by phytoplasma infections. With the yellow mark colouring, it still looks like something genetic is happening.
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Thanks for your comments, Dimitri. I agree with you that it looks like phytoplasma infection could be a possible cause of virescens. If it becomes obvious through cross-pollination experiments that virescens cannot be induced genetically then of course it must be some other factor, most likely phytoplasmas as you suggest. About the yellows, I should have said that (because yellow seedlings can be produced by crossing yellows) it looks like something genetic MAY be happening, rather than IS happening. I agree that this still needs to be proved or disproved - the way yellows are produced from seed does not always seem to follow the basic Mendelian rules and some odd results can be had.
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To confuse things even more, it is in my experience possible to raise seedlings from snowdrops with green TIPS to the outer segments and quite easily get seedlings which also have green tips. Obviously much more breeding work (and laboratory work) is needed to establish exactly what is happening.
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But snowdrops are quite closely related to snowflakes (leucojum) and these always have green-tipped petals. So surely it would not be surprising if there were a few genes for green-tipped outers swimming around in the gene pool?
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But snowdrops are quite closely related to snowflakes (leucojum) and these always have green-tipped petals. So surely it would not be surprising if there were a few genes for green-tipped outers swimming around in the gene pool?
Alan!))))) +5!!! Yes, these mutations (green tips outer segments, poculiformis, more than two leaves, twin flowers per stalk, etc.) just reflect the common ancestor in the past for Leucojums and Galanthus)))
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That's what I was wondering - if green tips are more likely to be purely genetic since they do seem to be an inheritable characteristic. Or whether they could also be caused by phytoplasma infections. If they are inherited from parent to seedling then it looks like genetics. But sometimes green tips and stripes are not inherited by the seedlings, and sometimes snowdrops will have green tips or stripes one year and not in other years. And what about the partial virescens of snowdrops which don't just have green tips but aren't totally virescent, with a number of green markings, like 'South Hayes' (which also tends to lose its green markings when twin scaled - which could indicate a phytoplasma infection which is 'cleaned up' by twin scaling). It might be difficult to establish a hard and fast rule that virescens may be due to phytoplasma but green tips are always genetic. It could be one cause in one snowdrop and the other cause in another snowdrop. Each case would have to be investigated individually.
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Grumpy Steve,
Yes, as others have said, your green tipped is nice... maybe slightly more green on the tips than mine. I had wondered about chipping as I haven't done a woronowii before.
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Anthony,
Glad you liked my green tip.Yours is nice too.As regards chipping your woronowii,all you have do is bigger slices,i have done a couple of woronowii's now and have found small chips just do nothing,4-8 chucks works for me.Hope that helps?
Here's another picture of 'North Hayes'for everyone's enjoyment.
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And another
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Steve, what magnificent snowdrops!
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Thanks Steve... I will try that as soon as one of the two daughter bulbs I have get to flowering size... which should be next year... and I'll practice on some 'plain' woronowii this year.
I agree with Natalia... those are beautiful.
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Anthony and Natalia,Thankyou for your kind words and keep watching,because if the last picture does what it did last year and it looks to me as if it will,you'll be amazed(i hope?)Or i will look very silly.
:P :P :P
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My goodness, the last time I checked this was on page two. :o
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That's what I was wondering - if green tips are more likely to be purely genetic since they do seem to be an inheritable characteristic. Or whether they could also be caused by phytoplasma infections. If they are inherited from parent to seedling then it looks like genetics. But sometimes green tips and stripes are not inherited by the seedlings, and sometimes snowdrops will have green tips or stripes one year and not in other years. And what about the partial virescens of snowdrops which don't just have green tips but aren't totally virescent, with a number of green markings, like 'South Hayes' (which also tends to lose its green markings when twin scaled - which could indicate a phytoplasma infection which is 'cleaned up' by twin scaling). It might be difficult to establish a hard and fast rule that virescens may be due to phytoplasma but green tips are always genetic. It could be one cause in one snowdrop and the other cause in another snowdrop. Each case would have to be investigated individually.
Martin, such strange behavior of Trym or South Hayes type snowdrops when twin-scaled is characteristic of periclinal or sectorial chimera plants originated not by genetics but due to cellular chimerism in embryo. And thus we could observe such "strange" situation, when a part of twin-scaled bulbils originated from one mutant genome tissue would conserve true South Hayes type plants, but other bulbils from not mutant tissue of twin-scaled bulb would be just not mutant common snowdrop plants of maternal plant origin. So, in this case it isn't phytoplasma impact, nor inheritable feauture, but just chimera plant, imho!!
see here http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/hort604/lecturesuppl/anatomychimeras/anatomychimeras05.htm (http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/hort604/lecturesuppl/anatomychimeras/anatomychimeras05.htm)
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Dimitri, thank you for all the links and your expert advice. I'm learning a lot here :)
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Dimitri, thank you for all the links and your expert advice. I'm learning a lot here :)
you're always welcome, Martin! 8)
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Hope your 'trailing colon' soon gets better Alan ;D
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Didn't you read, Mav? I had it removed.
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At last here is the photo's i promised.
1. Green tip in bud
2. Green tip in flower
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Here are the picture's of my special woronowii.This is the second year with us.As you can see from the(poor)photo,the other flower is half way in between.I like it,what do you all think?.
1. Green tip in bud
2. Green tip in flower (Clovis Type)
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Steve the second one is very interesting.
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I like it a lot Steve, it will be interesting to see what happens in years to come.
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I like it a lot Steve, it will be interesting to see what happens in years to come.
Thanks brian.I need to get some better photo's of it.There is always too much sun here in north yorkshire ;D ;D ;D.But joking aside,i only have three bulbs of this little fellow and haven't chipped him yet.To be honest i thought it was a one off,but as you know with snowdrops, they always amaze.
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Steve the second one is very interesting.
Thankyou Olga.Have you ever found one like this in russia?
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I've been rather slow to reply... but I agree with the others... that's a nice and very interesting snowdrop Steve. I hope it's a strong growing one.