Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => Travel / Places to Visit => Topic started by: krisderaeymaeker on December 10, 2011, 06:59:53 PM
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The last week from september we have been to the Peloponnesos.
We want to see some autumnbulbs mainly in the Northern part . Some targets : 5 different Colchicums, 2 Sternbergia's and Crocus ....
Most of the experts tell us that it was too early for Crocus ...They flower mainly in october and november.
If you want to know how things run ....you must keep an eye on this topic 8)
First I take you with us to Mount Chelmos . The weather changing from one day to another. Here some pics from around the ski centre.
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We also take the opportunity to look for some fine alpines higher up.
At 2000m we did find some many good ones . Ofcourse september is not the flowering season for them.
Verbascum acaule is a famous plant from the Chelmos area .
I think the second picture is Campanula aizoon ? Can anyone confirm this ?
Next is Potentilla speciosa (3 & 4 )
Ranunculus brevifolius at the end of his growing season
Daphne oleoides
And Saxifraga scardica also growing there.
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This Asperula boissieri was struggling for life ....
Draba lacaitae even needs no flowers to impress ! (2 & 3)
Arenaria cretica growing on a vertical clif. (4)
The sheeps are much better climbers then we ....
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We did see few flowering alpines in september !
First Campanula versicolor .
On the screes this Viola graeca (growing together with Ranunculus brevifolius)
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Kris, I'm watching this topic! Love the ciliate Draba (D. lacaitai). Nice silverly foliage on Potentialla speciosa; I wasn't familiar with this species so I searched for some photos of the flowers... the flowers are modest to be sure, but the foliage is certainly showy in the most silvery forms. Looking forward to seeing more.
Photo link of Potentilla speciosa, foliage and flowers:
http://kallima.sk/especies.php?plant=1191
Did you find any late flowering Allium? Should be several from the area.
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Kris, I'm watching this topic! Love the ciliate Draba (D. lacaitai). Nice silverly foliage on Potentialla speciosa; I wasn't familiar with this species so I searched for some photos of the flowers... the flowers are modest to be sure, but the foliage is certainly showy in the most silvery forms. Looking forward to seeing more.
Photo link of Potentilla speciosa, foliage and flowers:
http://kallima.sk/especies.php?plant=1191
Did you find any late flowering Allium? Should be several from the area.
Hi Mark , the flowers of P . speciosa are not the main reason to grow it as we can see. We did'nt see Allium in flower. I am sure we did see many leaves of different Aliums but without flowers I could not recognize any ....
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Near the ski centre we found this Colchicum graecum . The days before we came there was a lot of rain , so this Colchicum was a bit overtime ...
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After 3 days searching for Crocus and Sternbergia in the Chelmos-area we did not find any ! So it was time to go further to another part of the Peloponnesos...
But before we drive to the east I go back one more time to the plateau. Just to look at a spot where some fine Linums grow . I knew this place and I go for a short visit to see how things developped overthere.
And on a path where we walked each day suddenly I find something yellow in the grasland ! Oh surprise , finally we did find Sternbergia colchiciflora .
Very difficult to find between the high grasses ...Overlooked the other 3 days , or just started to flower ? We only find 5 plants....
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Kris
Looking forward to more from your trip.
I visited Mt Chelmos in April 2009 when it was covered with Crocus. Friends who visited two weeks earlier saw hardly any.
I think you look much more closely when it is not a perfect season and discover unforeseen treasures, not only plants but the local culture.
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Kris
Looking forward to more from your trip.
I visited Mt Chelmos in April 2009 when it was covered with Crocus. Friends who visited two weeks earlier saw hardly any.
I think you look much more closely when it is not a perfect season and discover unforeseen treasures, not only plants but the local culture.
Thank you Arthur for your interest , indeed to see bulbs you must be just on the right time ...But the story is not finished , there is more to come so ......
We visited Mt Chelmos in May some years ago and even on the high peaks no flowering Crocus sieberi or olivieri ....Hope to go back sometimes to see them ...
You are right ,when you have to look hard you find some surprises .
On the lower slopes of Mount Chelmos we did find Colchicum bivonae and Cyclamen hederifolium
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Another exciting bulb we found on lower altitude (1000m) in this Chelmos-area was Colchicum
peloponnesiacum . bivonae
This is bivonae and not the rare peloponnesiacum .
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I think it fits quite well within the variation of C. bivonae. Not many other candidates I suppose. Here some pics that show C. bivonae variation in southern Greece (shape and colour of the tepals). Perhaps C. chalcedonicum is somewhat similar, but I have not seen it myself. Picture 7 or 8 seems to have a different shape of anthers, but perhaps this has just something to do with the age of the flower...
C. peloponessiacum is more like psaridis, cupanii, stevenii, pusillum and cretense (cupanii group).
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I think it fits quite well within the variation of C. bivonae. Not many other candidates I suppose. Here some pics that show C. bivonae variation in southern Greece (shape and colour of the tepals). Perhaps C. chalcedonicum is somewhat similar, but I have not seen it myself. Picture 7 or 8 seems to have a different shape of anthers, but perhaps this has just something to do with the age of the flower...
C. peloponessiacum is more like psaridis, cupanii, stevenii, pusillum and cretense (cupanii group).
You are right Kees Jan . It is bivonae . The flowers and corms are smaller in this populations then the ones I know from other places.But this is as you write just a matter of variation...
I took my dream for reality ....but now I wake up. :-[
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Hi Kris, great photos of a great trip - even if Crocus was still rare ;D
I agree with Kees that your Colchicum is bivonae - but you don't have to be sad about waking up now. I think Colchicum bivonae is one of the most beautiful Colchicums ever. I have seen them only in two locations last year (http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6195.0) but have made a photo of - what I think - is Colchicum peloponessiacum. It's much smaller and the leaves are present at flowering time - see my first photo in the second posting.
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Thank you for the super pictures it is good to see some flowers we have been in the midst of a storm with good snow cover the pictures remind me that spring might come soon more pictures please, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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Hi Thomas,
I think the picture you refer to must be Colchicum psaridis ::), an endemic species of the Mani Peninsula that is closely related to C. peloponesiacum and perhaps even closer related to C. cupanii from which it seems to be indistinghuisable unless you have a look at the corm (stoloniferous/ horizontal in psaridis). I found it just a few km from Areopolis, the name that is mentioned in your picture! It's a small world...
Colchicum peloponesiacum is, as far as I know, an endemic species of the northern Peloponnese, restricted to the Kalavrita area. Psaridis, cupanii and peloponesiacum all seem to have leaves that are quite well developed at flowering time.
KJ
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Hi Kris, great photos of a great trip - even if Crocus was still rare ;D
Hi Thomas , thanks for the compliments.
Maybe (can't promise anything , its like in the movie : you have to watch until the end ;D)you have to be patient ? ;D
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Thank you for the super pictures it is good to see some flowers we have been in the midst of a storm with good snow cover the pictures remind me that spring might come soon more pictures please, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
Many thanks Ian !!! I promise ,there is more to come .... :D
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Hi Thomas,
I think the picture you refer to must be Colchicum psaridis ::), an endemic species of the Mani Peninsula that is closely related to C. peloponesiacum and perhaps even closer related to C. cupanii from which it seems to be indistinghuisable unless you have a look at the corm (stoloniferous/ horizontal in psaridis). I found it just a few km from Areopolis, the name that is mentioned in your picture! It's a small world...
Colchicum peloponesiacum is, as far as I know, an endemic species of the northern Peloponnese, restricted to the Kalavrita area. Psaridis, cupanii and peloponesiacum all seem to have leaves that are quite well developed at flowering time.
KJ
I agree Kees Jan.
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Hi Thomas,
I think the picture you refer to must be Colchicum psaridis ::), an endemic species of the Mani Peninsula that is closely related to C. peloponesiacum and perhaps even closer related to C. cupanii from which it seems to be indistinghuisable unless you have a look at the corm (stoloniferous/ horizontal in psaridis). I found it just a few km from Areopolis, the name that is mentioned in your picture! It's a small world...
Colchicum peloponesiacum is, as far as I know, an endemic species of the northern Peloponnese, restricted to the Kalavrita area. Psaridis, cupanii and peloponesiacum all seem to have leaves that are quite well developed at flowering time.
KJ
Kees, I also read that C. peloponesiacum only should grow in Northern Peloponese and wondered about that. But I have checked the plants for Stolons and found only 'standard' corms forming one big clump while the others grew as single plants - so it wasn't C. psaridis, which is also smaller than the one on the photo (grow it since many years in my garden).
C. cupanii should have black anthers, which my plant obviously doesn't have, and the leaves are much broader and hairy. I don't know of any more Colchicums to conform with that key, so my thought was, that this should be C. peloponesiacum - perhaps this plant hasn't read the book about where it has to grow ;D
Kris, I will be patient, even if it is hard at this time of the year when hardly any crocus is out in my garden and each photo from the wild is welcome to brighten up our dull life. :D
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It's always more complicated than you would think reading the books, isn't it typical ;).
I have seen hairy leaved plants that I thought were definitely psaridis, perhaps the corms are not always horizontal but only during some part of the growing season?! Or is it just boissieri that displays that kind of behaviour? The hairy leaves are interesting, if this is a consistent feature perhaps worth some taxonomic recognition? The anther colour in your plant is most interesting...! When I was in the Peloponnese with Marijn van den Brink we found hairy plants near Areopolis with a very different anther colour: http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/Flora-and-Fauna/Europe/Greece-Southern-Peloponnese/10896942_NFTzvV#760896904_CN9kv
There are pics of peloponesiacum in cultivation in a similar thread started by Kris at the VRV forum: http://www.vrvforum.be/forum/index.php?topic=587.30
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Ohh yes - you're so right. Life would be much easier if we could only enjoy the plants' beauty without that bondage of having a name for them .... :-\ Let's hope that there will be a monograph about Colchicum published soon.
Your photo of C. psaridis shows a real abnormal amount of hairs on its leaves - seems like hairness isn't a good feature for identifying a Colchicum. But the corms are the best feature for id - they always form stolons and look different from the 'standard' Colchicum corm. Compared with C. boissieri they look the same, but smaller and finer.
The photo of C. peloponesiacum in the VRV forum looks similar to my plant, except the brighter flower colour, won't you say?
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yes, they look similar, particularly the colour of the anthers, which I still think is probably variable from yellow to the colour in Marijn's pictures. It seems very unlikely to me that there are two colchicum species with hairy leaves growing around Areopolis, both closely related to C. cupanii! I suppose it MUST be variation within a single species, I have never seen hairy leaves in colchicum species of the cupanii group in other locations than in the vicinity of Areopolis, Mani Peninsula!
Certainly a very interesting population.
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Colchicum peloponnesiacum gets the attention it deserves , so time for the rest of the story.
We left the Chelmos area and went to Mount Kylini with the hope to find Crocus ....
I had not that much hope because Chelmos and Kylini are much similar ...But you never know.
On the way to Kylini we found this Colchicum . I think it must be Colchicum graecum altough its looking not the same as other populations we found.
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On the plateau near the ski centre of Kylini we did not find any Crocus ...
More and more I was thinking that it was impossible to see flowering Crocus in the Pelops in september...
But we did find a very fine population of Colchicum pulchellum...
Karin Persson discribed this dwarf Colchicum in 1988 and the growing area of this one is also very limited.
A bit disappointed for the abcense of the Crocus but very glad with this dwarf and beautiful Colchicum ...
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We go further with some plants from the area around Mount Parnon.
Here we find some nice populations of Colchicum parlatoris .In bigger populations it is always exciting to look for some extreme forms...
We even find some parlatoris with Crocus-shaped flowers 8)
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Colchicum parlatoris grow in company with Cyclamen graecum and Sternbergia sicula .
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Along the mainroad to Sparti we found this Sternbergia sicula and Cyclamen graecum. A bit unusual to find such beautys along such mainroad with very busy traffic...
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Colchicum parlatoris grow in company with Cyclamen graecum and Sternbergia sicula .
Wonderful set of photos - enjoyed them a lot!
Gerd
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On the plateau near the ski centre of Kylini we did not find any Crocus ...
More and more I was thinking that it was impossible to see flowering Crocus in the Pelops in september...
Kris beautiful pictures,lovely to see. A friend of mine went in September arriving on the 22nd some years ago and saw crocus by the thousands. I went the following year with his notes to all the same sites and found none. Another year on a later visit to the same sites in early October I too saw them in thousands. It all seems to depend on the timing of the rains.
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These pictures bring back memories of a short holiday to Corfu in October 1992.
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Wonderful set of photos - enjoyed them a lot!
Gerd
Thank you Gerd , make some preparations for the plot of this story ...
I suppose that the Viola graeca is one of your favorites ?
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Kris beautiful pictures,lovely to see. A friend of mine went in September arriving on the 22nd some years ago and saw crocus by the thousands. I went the following year with his notes to all the same sites and found none. Another year on a later visit to the same sites in early October I too saw them in thousands. It all seems to depend on the timing of the rains.
Thank you Tony . I always like to travel in Greece ! So many beautiful bulbs,orchids and many other plants.You are right , it is hard to say when the autumnbulbs go to flower ...Altough I think that September is in most years an exception for flowering Crocus ?
But the story is not at the end , we have to go to Mount Menalo . Who knows ....
First the last pictures from the Mount Menalo area ...Again some Coclchicum bivonae. This time a more typical form to me. With huge flowers on huge flowerstems ...
Up to Mount Menalo now...
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These pictures bring back memories of a short holiday to Corfu in October 1992.
That is some time ago Anthony . Did you see many Sternbergia 's ?
On Mount Menalo we did find some fine populations of Sternbergia sicula.
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And some more yellow to brighten up this cold winterday ....
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Nice pictures. Along the road to Menalo I found a location wher S. sicula and S. colchiciflora flowered side by side. Quite unusual, normally colchiciflora grows at higher altitude than sicula...
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Nice pitures. Along the road to Menalo I found a location wher S. sicula and S. colchiciflora flowered side by side. Quite unusual, normally colchiciflora grows at higher altitude than sicula...
Thanks Kees Jan , this pictures are also taken on a place where they both grow together ! Aroud 950m height .
But at this spot the sicula grows in full sun while the colchiciflora grows beneath some pines in a rather shady place.
Maybe we visit the same place ?
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These pictures bring back memories of a short holiday to Corfu in October 1992.
That is some time ago Anthony . Did you see many Sternbergia 's ?
Yes Kris, on our way up Mount Pantokrator behind a church, and also just below the summit. I also found lots of Cyclamen hederifolium, some even growing through the tarmac at the edge of the road near Kassiopi. It may have been a long time ago, but I'm still wearing the leather belt embossed with Levi 501 I bought then.
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Yes Kris, on our way up Mount Pantokrator behind a church, and also just below the summit. I also found lots of Cyclamen hederifolium, some even growing through the tarmac at the edge of the road near Kassiopi. It may have been a long time ago, but I'm still wearing the leather belt embossed with Levi 501 I bought then.
Anthony ,we did visit Corfu in 1996 but in the wrong season ...As I can read here it is interesting to go back sometimes ...
Altough we have something in common..... , a collection of leather belts from Greece ;D
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Around the plateau near the summit on Mount Menalo we find this flowering Digitalis ferruginea .
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Mount Menalo has also the best populations of Colchicum graecum on his account ...
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Mount Menalo has also the best populations of Colchicum graecum on his account ...
Same remark for Sternbergia colchiciflora ...
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I have rarely flowered this species. Perhaps if I get some in NZ?
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I have rarely flowered this species. Perhaps if I get some in NZ?
Have the same problem here in Belgium Anthony ....Hope you get more succes down under ...Please let us know.
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Any idea what's happening here ?
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Yeah! you found a crocus! 8)
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Yeah! you found a crocus! 8)
Even faster then the speed of light , ofcourse Maggi . 8) Eventually we find some flowering Crocus in the Pelops in september...
Our last chance on Mount Menalo was the good one ...
First some overview from the habitat where they grow ...
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Crocus cancellatus subsp. mazziaricus on Mount Menalo ...
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And what a good Crocus you found - congratulations, Kris.
This was the only one that I didn't find last year on my own trip.
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And what a good Crocus you found - congratulations, Kris.
This was the only one that I didn't find last year on my own trip.
Thank you Thomas ! For us it was the only one we did find ....
Next time we trie to go later and more to the south of the Pelops ...
We have been to Crete this year by the end of november and we see them al in flower overthere. So it looks it was a very late season in Greece this year ?
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Kris, so many nice colchicum :)...
At last a very nice form of mazziaricus clear yellow throath! (240-248) while all of mine have white throath.
Thanks for showing all these nice photos...
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Kris, so many nice colchicum :)...
At last a very nice form of mazziaricus clear yellow throath! (240-248) while all of mine have white throath.
Thanks for showing all these nice photos...
Thank you Ibrahim , always happy to share ...