Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: ian mcenery on March 01, 2008, 06:46:15 PM
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As a relative newcomer to crocus I find it difficult to identify many of these simply and accurately. Can anyone recommend a simple key for species as without such an aid progress is going to be slow. I am guessing this is maybe covered in Brian Mathew's book but I don't have a king's ransom. When I last checked ABE's cheapest was £100 and rising. Any ideas please? ??? ??? ???
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Tony Goode's site 'Crocuspages' is a simple on-line resourse but, excellent as it is, it is still just a basic picture guide and I would not be confident of nameing an unknown crocus from that alone.
The easiest way seems to be to post a picture on the forum and the name is instantly forthcoming :P, and thanks to all those that answere such queries.
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David, having met Tony Goode, you'll know that he is a simple, picture based kind of guy :D
You're quite right that the collective examination of your plants by this audience is a great way to learn more about them.
I will one day produce a more detailed web reference for the genus ... unless someone else beats me to it! In the meantime Ian, you can also look up the PBS wiki
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Crocus
which has the virtue of being a collective exercise while being better ordered for research than our long threads here.
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Goode by name and good by nature.
Thanks for the PBS wiki link, Tony, its another building block towards I.D.ing the crocus.
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Can anyone recommend a simple key for species
Ian, you might consider Brian Mathew's 'The Smaller Bulbs' which provides a very basic guide to identification, based on colour & flowering season supplemented by other easily observable characteristics where relevant. It's a useful book generally & would, I assume, cost a good deal less than 'The Crocus' (although it's not currently listed on ABE).
For European species only, there is a good key in 'Bulbs: The bulbous plants of Europe & their allies' by Christopher Grey-Wilson & Brian Mathew. The paintings by Marjorie Blamey are too impressionistic to be of use in identification. ABE lists a number of inexpensive copies.
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Thanks Tony, Gerry and David I do frequent Crocus pages and it is a great resource and have used as a reference when acquiring seeds and corms. It can also often a great help in eliminating suspects but of course there is no Key. Gerry I have also looked at Mathews "Dwarf Bulbs" does his "Smaller Bulbs" which I don't have have fuller descriptions etc?
Meanwhile can anyone identify this one please it has been growing inthe garden for some years I think and in my years of neglect the label was lost?
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Gerry I have also looked at Mathews "Dwarf Bulbs" does his "Smaller Bulbs" which I don't have have fuller descriptions etc?
Ian, I don't own 'Dwarf Bulbs' & it is years since I have seen it. Relying on memory, I think 'Smaller Bulbs' is more detailed in every way.
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8 out of 10 lost label strays on this forum are C tommasinianus ;) This might well be another but the flower shape is not typical. It might be a vernus x tommasinianus hybrid though.
I may be in touch with Brian M later this year as I have been asked to take over running the Crocus Group which has BM as its Patron. I will see if I can get permission to reproduce his key to crocus on the web. Don't get too excited though .... its a long and complicated affair!!
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Tony that sounds great. It would also be nice if some enterprising printer would reprint some of Brian's work. His Crocus and Hellebores both fetch incredible prices
The unidentified crocus I wondered could it be minimus as I did once have it and although I gather some are feathered and this is not this plant is quite small?
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Ian, I didn't dare to give an answer - your plant can be everything between vernus and tommasinianus, but it surely isn't minimus!
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Thomas and Tony you both say that this looks like a tommie or vernus. It would be helpful to me to know what markers you see. As Maggi says there's always a clue
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Hmm - its certainly not a typical tommy. The colour is OK, the hint of paler colour on the outers also. The flowers are more like vernus in their shape - hence the suggestion of a garden hybrid. How long have they been there? I always stress in my talks that the flower is no always the best part of the plant to study when making an ID! It is also better to have the real thing rather than a picture. ;)
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Thank you Tony I am beginning to see the light as the song goes ;)
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Howdy All,
I'm hoping this is the best place to post this. I was going to start a separate thread, then figured this should be a good place to keep all these various IDs together.....
I was at a friend's place today and she has (and as soon as she has enough, I'll have! ;D) this crocus in flower that she bought a couple of weeks ago as C. pulchellus. From my pics of my own pulchellus I don't think that the style is correct for this species, plus it is much much darker than any pulchellus I have seen. The colour is pretty much accurate on my computer as to the mauve colouration, and there is speckling on the outer petals. It was a murky day today so I could not get a picture with the flower open unfortunately. I violated it badly enough pulling petals this way and that to get the shots I did. I've included a full pic that shows the outer petals markings a little, plus the wonderful striping inside, plus two separate closeups of the internals which I realise are so often the diagnostic feature.
It is flowering with her C. serotinus ssp salzmanii (to give you an idea of timing) but it was purchased up in the Blue Mountains a couple of hours north of here so timing could be out. At the moment here in Canberra the timing is for things like pulchellus, speciosus, just past banaticus etc (not many have flowered here yet, but a lot of mine aren't going to flower this year.... which is why I built that new garden) to give you our time of the season, but as I said it was recently introduced from elsewhere so timing may vary a little I think. I don't recognise it as one I have grown here, nor seen at friend's places. Am I incorrect re the style and it IS pulchellus?
Thanks for any help you can give in IDing this plant. I'd like to clarify the name of it for her, and for me in the future!! ;D
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Paul, that's a Crocus speciosus you have there.
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Maggi,
I had wondered! Given timing etc, but the speckling on the outer petals was unusual, but did bring to mind my recent incorrect abantensis to some degree. So it's definitely just a speciosus? Nothing particularly named about it or anything?
Thanks so much for the response. 8)
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Howdy All,
I have two different things under the name Crocus longiflorus. While they have superficial similarities there are obviously glaring differences as well. Could these both be variations of the species, or is one of them something else? I have named them with a (B) for the form in the backyard (sourced many years ago) and (CG) for the form in the crocus garden that is new. I rather like the new one.... much larger (but that could be cultural of course, given the other has been in the ground for years fighting everything else near there including a massive Magnolia ) and such a nice uniform colour... but the striping and comparative delicacy of the older version also very much has an appeal. Yes, the flower in the comparison shot DOES have 8 petals not 6, but it was an older flower so I didn't mind cutting it to take out the front to compare. Sun is a bit here and there today, and have been struggling to get a good open flower on the older form.
So..... what do I have here? 2 forms of longiflorus or one plus something else, or neither of them that species? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Whatever it is Paul, as a gardener I would keep the CG.
The other one's flowers are not good enough to keep it in the collection. (for me :) )
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Luit,
The other one is actually a lot better than the photos show, it's just that where they are they aren't opening properly in the current weather. I am sure that previously the flowers were larger, but I think that a few years with drought has it struggling a bit. I may even think about lifting it this year, perhaps even straight after flowering, to give it a better home and see how it does. I have a place for it at the moment, so knowing me I'd better do it soon or the place will go to something else!! ;D
And you're right..... CG (which for reference stands for Crocus Garden, and the B stands for Backyard... so I know which is which) is a very nice flower!!
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Paul, both are Crocus longiflorus! I could show you photos of many different variants
from my collection - it's another very variable species!
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Thomas,
Excellent! I don't mind that at all. I just wanted to make sure that I had the right name on them as I don't like perpetuating misnaming of plants through ignorance of them being incorrectly labelled. That's one of the beauties of a forum like this..... when something has you stumped there is usually someone who has a clue as to the answer! ;D I shall now enjoy both of them, knowing they're varieties of the same species. You'd not know it by looking at them. Thank you! Thanks you!
At some point I'd be interested in seeing pics of the assorted types you have.... just to see how variable it is. 8)
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Your wish is my command !!!
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Your wish is my command !!!
Well in that case...... I wish you'd send me lots and lots of money, maybe a new car? ;D ;)
The longiflorus really are variable as you said. From quite a filled in round to rather spidery, markings at base etc..... fascinating. Thanks for the pics!! 8)
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I moved the (B) version of longiflorus today to a better position. Some food etc and better soil should produce somewhat better flowers next year I'd imagine. Will be interesting to see how much difference it makes. :)
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Are all your C. longiflorus varieties scented Thomas?
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Havn't tried them all, Howard!
Are you still looking for longiflorus seeds?
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Ok Crocophiles.... I have another ID request here.....
I received this from a friend a couple of years ago. It is just coming into flower at the moment, but I haven't managed to see them open as yet. These are from pics I took last year. I am wondering if, like Lesley's unknown last week, these are another form of serotinus ssp salzmanii? The speckling oon the outer petals is rather lovely, but the petals are rather long and thin, more so than the salzmanii I have seen before, and moreso than Lesley's pics of hers. It is also much darker than Lesley's, although it has similar speckling. Could anyone confirm an ID? If I need to take extra pics I will have to wait until I'm home in some sunshine hours. ;D
Thanks in anticipation. ;)
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You could well be right Paul. With all the Crocus threads we now have I can't even find mine, to compare. :'(
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Lesley,
Yours in the 8th posting in the the Southern Hemisphere crocus thread, page 1. Not sure whether this will work or not but...
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1653.msg41458#msg41458
Re: Crocus 2008 - Southern Hemisphere
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So.... no ideas anyone on what my unknown Crocus might be? ???
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Unless T and T say differently, I'd go with C. serotinus salzmannii, though perhaps you should have a look at the corm tunic when it dies down. The leaves are well developed too, which suggests C. s. salzmannii, or the possibly invalid ssp. name erectophyllus. I'm happy (and waiting) to be shot down though.
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Lesley, I think you're right, Paul's plant could be serotinus ssp salzmanii.
But Erectophyllus isn't a ssp name, it's a cultivar name!
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So just how widely spread are the salzmanii? This one doesn't even remotely resemble the "normal" one or the white one I have as it has much thinner petals and the outer specklings. I do have a supposedly "dark form" which hasn't flowered for me as yet, but maybe it is the same as this one. How much darker do they get, and how much variability is there in petal forms etc?
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Paul, a basic question: What is the "normal" salzmanii? Do you mean the standard trade clone? But what is the standard trade clone? There are sooo many different forms in trade, plus many more from different collections. In the wild ssp salzmanii is widespread from North to South Spain plus Morocco.
If you ever come to observe a wild habitat of Crocus you will find out, that there are different forms even in the same location so you can imagine, that this results in many, many different forms all over it's growing area.
I know about dark and bright blue ones, with stripes and feathering or without, small or big flowers with broad or small petals.
A little idea will the following photos give:
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Thomas,
The photos are great. There's a few of those I'd love to grow, if they performed as well as our standard salzmanii here in Aus then they'd be absolutely stunning!!
I guess I forget at times how many different things you have available over there that we don't have here in Aus. So often here in Aus have a single variety of something, as it was brought in years ago and has been passed around since then, so everyone has the same thing. C. s. salzmanii is a fine example where generally everyone has the same thing as it grows, multiplies and flowers well. I honestly until now really had no idea that it was so variable (just like I had no idea for the longiflorus. I knew there were various forms of various species (I recall sieberi ssp sieberi pics last year or the year before which show so much natural variation) but here we don't really see it unless we grow things from seed ourselves.
Also, I must admit I didn't realise that these species were that varied within a given population. I had thought that most of these variations were from different colonies which gave the difference. I have never seen a wild crocus colony (nor am I ever likely to unfortunately) but I didn't realise that they varied so much in the one location. Pretty dumb I guess, as I should have realised it given discussions we've had. Often not so easy to apply something practically when we haven't observed it ourselves. Sorry for having been so slow on the uptake. :(
Thanks so much again for the pics. Great to see such wonderfully practical illustrations of what we're talking about.
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;D dont worry Paul ::)
If you are in some days ( or years ) in the age of Thomas so you will also know this all ..... :P
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Thomas is 40 and I'm 39, so if his age is giving him wisdom then there is absolutely no hope for me! ::)
;D
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yes Paul - I know this !!! ;D
but ....before one year ....
You have to come to Europe 8)
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Hans,
Yes, 'twould be nice to come to Europe. Don't hold your breath just yet, it may take a while. :(
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Thanks Thomas (for shooting me down ;D). I did know Erectophyllus wasn't a subspecies in fact, just getting my lettering wrong. In Mathew (1st Edition 1982) he mentions it in the text with single quotation marks ('Erectophyllus.') as if it were a cultivar name whereas in the index he lists it as var. erectophyllus Bowles. Anyway it seems it's just a very leafy North African form of C. serotinus salzmannii. Your batch of variation pictures is great.
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We also seem to be having a little (silent) argument about the spelling of salzmanii/salzmannii. I'm going with the latter, as per Mathew (1st Edition, 1982) again.
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Thanks for shooting back, Lesley ;D
Of course you're right, it's salzma"nn"ii!
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I don't remember getting the bulbs but in early spring we found a clump of large, purple crocus in the garden. My thoughts were that it was a Dutch hybrid. However it has set seed. Do Dutch hybrids set seed or could it be a large form of C. vernus?
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Yes, the large-flowered Dutch hybrids based on C. vernus can/do set seed.
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Help with a crocus please.
I went to the Edinburgh SRGC Show 5th April, and saw a rather fine crocus, wrote its name down, and thought I must find out more about it some time.
I had no success at all, looking through all my books at home.
I see that someone took a picture of it and posted it on the SRGC website, under SRGC shows and events, Edinburgh and Lothian Show.
It's labelled Crocus goteborgenis.
Do any of you know anything about it?
Is the reason I can't find anything out about it, that it's mis-spelt, or is it some trendy new species?
I would be grateful for your thoughts,
Giles
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Help with ... Crocus goteborgenis ... is it some trendy new species?
Trendy maybe, but it's a hybrid not a species. Click here, then go to hybrids on the left, then scroll down to second pic
http://www.thealpinehouse.fsnet.co.uk/crocus%20pages/
Perhaps the author of the site Mr Chief Croconut or his partner in croconut fever from Neustadt will fill in more info. I think it's a "love it" or "hate it" sort of thing!
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Those two have been extremely quiet this summer
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Giles, check out Ian's Bulb Logs of No. 13/05 http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2005/290305/log.html
and No. 13/06 http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2006/300306/log.html
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Am I impressed. 3 replies in less than 1 hour!!!!
There's still the question of:
Crocus goteborgensis
Crocus x goteburgensis
Crocus gothenbergensis
Crocus x gothenbergensis
I know I really ought to get out more, and get a life, and all that, but names are important(!)
If it its an interspecific hybrid it's going to be C x (something) I guess.
Books/Googling/PlantFinder aren't helping.
Please Mr Croconut(s)?.....
I note on the Bulb Log entry Ian says 'this is the crocus that I am most often asked for and it is possibly my least favourite'
.....I guess I never claimed to have good taste!
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Well, the Swedish folk would spell it Crocus x goteborgensis whereas we English speakers would incline to Crocus x gothenburgensis ;) But I believe that the former is the correct name. 8)
Take anything Ian writes regarding spelling with a pinch of salt.... he is dyslexic :-[ ???
Crocus x gotoburgensis is how it was first described
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Thankyou,kind folk, as always.
Giles
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Those two have been extremely quiet this summer
That's because up with you, there are no (?) crocuses flowering at the moment. Soon be autumn, then watch out.
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I wouldn't suggest for a moment that Ian's taste was other than the best Maggi, but I think in this case he speaks from the position of being one of those fortunate, (relatively) few people who have a stock of either this hybrid or its beautiful parents. I have none of the three so can say (with IMPECCABLE taste Giles) that I think the hybrid is quite lovely and if I ever have a chance to obtain it or to repeat the cross, will do so with great speed and greater pleasure in anticipation. ;D
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Mark - I'm always quiet - I consider it a strength ;)
I think the question has been answered already :)
As this is not a plant that I grow myself I can only suggest references. There was a write-up in the AGS bulletin a few years back but I don't have the number handy.
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Nothing new can be added from Neustadt 8)
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There was a write-up in the AGS bulletin a few years back but I don't have the number handy.
I seem to recall that it was shown by Eric Webster of Loughborough and got a PC some years ago. The Alpine Garden Society has a cumulative index on-line. Go to here to find the reference where it is listed as Crocus x gotoburgensis
http://www.alpinegardensociety.net/servlet/indexservlet?command=listentries&category=Crocus
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........a fifth way of spelling it?
(!!!!)
Giles