Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: colin e on November 09, 2020, 09:57:06 AM

Title: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on November 09, 2020, 09:57:06 AM
Well in my brain this is when the Fritillaria season really starts. I have got all my pots plunged. I may still have to move a few around to try and keep the moisture level in some pot as I would like. Pictures of plunges below.
I did my first watering on 01/10/20 because the temperatures at night were under 10c and were forecast to stay under 10c for two weeks. They just about did but since then we have had some very warm nights. So I have had to be careful to keep them on the dryer side with the main moisture at the bottom of  the pots. Even with doing this I have still got 27 pots with live roots out of the bottom. Some pots have roots over 5cm long; luckily I do not think I broke any.
Like Bob I have put some pots of bulbs in the fridge. This is the first time I have done this. My main reason for doing this is to delay their flowering time to increase my chances of getting viable seeds off them. These pots are at 5c with my seeds. I also have some high altitude Chinese cold – growing seedlings and these are in another fridge at 2c. This temperature should be cold enough to check shoot development. I know it should be 1c but that would not give me any real margin for variation in temperatures. Time will see how I get on. Pictured below are two of these pots showing a couple that are already growing before being put in the fridge! One is F. albidiflora FG19 and the other is F. ferganensis KV19.
I can do nothing about the outdoor bulb bed, it just gets our weather and in this one of three Fritillaria persica OP213063 from Orin Perry seed in 2017 has already come up - see the picture below. I hope the other two just think it is too early to start into growth and have not died.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on November 16, 2020, 09:00:32 AM
Yesterday I was checking my sown seeds that are in the fridge to make sure they were not drying out. I was surprised to find three of the pots had germinated (one pictured below). Well, one specifically meleagroides FG20 the other two are ones that tend to root early for me as bulbs anyway so no big surprise.
In the greenhouse I am getting more roots out of the bottom of pots. I am now up to 48 with live roots out of the bottom. Plus I have 6 pots with growth above gravel admit-ably from only two species: Fritillaria persica and striata. Both pots of the persica material originate from Israel. OP213063 is a bicoloured form and I also have a green form coming along (pictures below). Does any one else grow the OP213063 form because mine are making offsets which I have not known persica do before? My Dutch Fritillaria persica is as yet not showing growth. Of the OP213063 bulbs in the bulb bed it is still only the one out of three showing but is definitely on the move (picture below). I was fortunate last year to be given some seeds of Fritillaria striata which I actually sowed into three pots. I did this in case I made a mistake with one pot I would still have some. So far they are all doing well; one pot pictured below.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Maggi Young on November 16, 2020, 01:30:52 PM
Hello Colin - I'm interested in your  comments  about  roots  showing  from the  bottom of the  pots..... since  I assume  most  of  these  pots  are  plunged  in sand, are you  not  worried about  damaging the  emerging roots when  lifting the  pots from the  plunge ? 
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on November 16, 2020, 05:43:25 PM
Hi Maggi I tend to not lift pots once I know roots have started coming out the bottom. I put a red label in the pot by the name label to tell me roots have come out and then don’t lift that pot again. If I have to, I try to take as much root and sand as I can and then double pot them in sand to keep as much root as possible. The picture below is of a pot that was lifted to go to a Fritillaria Group meeting for example.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Maggi Young on November 16, 2020, 06:12:34 PM
glad to hear  you  do  what you can to mitigate  damage, Colin!
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: ashley on November 20, 2020, 10:04:13 PM
Harvesting of F. delavayi from wild populations is apparently increasing the prevalence of more cryptic brown/grey forms (see e.g. here for a lay summary (https://www.earth.com/news/chinese-fritillaria-plants-have-found-a-way-to-hide-from-humans/); original paper behind paywall).
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on January 30, 2021, 02:59:08 PM
Although we have had more cold nights this January than we have had before, things are still on the move. Of my 425 pots or more 277 are showing some type of growth. 214 have roots out of the bottom and 176 have growth showing above the potting mix. Of the 45 pots of seeds I have sown this season 31 have germinated; below is a picture of some of them. Something to watch out for is aphid - the next picture shows one of my seedling pots with three aphids on it. You can spray but I use a paint brush dipped in water or insecticide solution and pick them up with it. The next picture is not very good but the green blob on the end is one of those aphids which was then dealt with.

Colin
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on January 30, 2021, 03:00:35 PM
I have now had my first flower of this season which has taken its time to open and is Fritillaria striata pictured below. The first three are of that flower and the fourth picture is of my other adult bulb. With luck I may get a seed pod on it; time will tell.

Colin
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on January 30, 2021, 03:03:41 PM
Fritillaria davisii AGS00 in the greenhouse, it has been a very good doer for me. So some years ago I put some into the grass in front of our house (which is being cultivated as a wild bulb meadow) and yesterday I spotted these two pictured below. Finally the Fritillaria persica OP213063 from Orin Perry that is in the bulb bed has not liked this January because it has had to cope with snow and most nights below freezing, but it is still with me if not looking very good -see the last picture.

Colin
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Peppa on February 09, 2021, 03:53:57 AM
I have now had my first flower of this season which has taken its time to open and is Fritillaria striata pictured below. The first three are of that flower and the fourth picture is of my other adult bulb. With luck I may get a seed pod on it; time will tell.

Colin

Pretty F. strata, Collin! I have some small seedlings of this and hopefully I will be able to manage to get them going and see the flowers! The temperature is going to go down from next week, so I am preparing to move and protect some of my plants. Fritillaria koidzumiana has started to bloom and F. ayakoana is budding up, as well.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: ashley on February 09, 2021, 11:51:16 AM
Those are lovely Peppa.  You seem to have a fine potful going on 8)    Are they from seed?
Here F. raddeana has begun flowering.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Peppa on February 10, 2021, 12:28:41 AM
Those are lovely Peppa.  You seem to have a fine potful going on 8)    Are they from seed?
Here F. raddeana has begun flowering.
Yes, Ashley. :) I got several seeds a long time ago from my friends in Japan. And they are finally getting going. You seem a bit ahead of us here, my raddeana are just poking up out of the soil.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on February 10, 2021, 04:13:15 PM
Thanks Peppa.
Even though it has still been cold here (on the ground outside -7c last night) things are still moving. Fritillaria sewerzowii (pictured below) is outside in the unprotected bulb bed. The bulb at the top of the picture has been there since 2018 and the one closest since 2019 and they have been becoming bigger and stronger plants year on year. I do not think I will be able to say that about Fritillaria persica OP213063; it is definately not looking good. The foliage has suffered with the continuing cold we have been having. In comparison the seven bulbs in the unheated greenhouse are looking good (pictured below). In the greenhouse some bits have started to flower. A Fritillaria straussii from a 2014 sowing has started (pictured below). This is the only one in the pot to have any stem. The rest are opening just as they come through the gravel so do not make a reasonable picture. They will come up on a stem in time but the flower will not look as fresh then. Also just starting to open, Fritillaria gibbosa x good pinks from a sowing in 2016 (pictured below). Most of the other gibbosa pots are behind this one.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on February 10, 2021, 04:14:19 PM
Lastly what is labelled Fritillaria crassifolia ssp Kurdica ex Batman, which I think will end up as Fritillaria kurdica, are from a sowing in 2017 (pictured below). They, like the strausii, will get a little taller.

Colin
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Maggi Young on February 10, 2021, 05:16:21 PM
Colin, were the  Fritillaria sewerzowii doing well outside  in the garden originally grown from seed? I was wondering if perhaps  Fritillaria persica OP213063 had come  as   a bulb and was feeling the change from it's previous home?
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on February 10, 2021, 06:43:52 PM
Maggi the Fritillaria persica OP213063 are all seed grown as is one of the sewerzowii. The other sewerzowii was a bought bulb which always flowered at gravel level in the greenhouse and by the time it extended the flowers were going over. So that is why it went in first and it has done better in the bulb bed so far. But I think all the Frits will be tested this year with the weather that has been forecast!

Colin
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Maggi Young on February 10, 2021, 07:18:01 PM
You may well be right about the  "testing" weather, Colin!
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Jeffnz on February 10, 2021, 11:03:22 PM
Read somewhere that Chinese and English scientist have i observed that wild F. delavayi have been converting to less bright leaves, their explanation is that the species is targeted by collectors and the change is to hide the plants from prying eyes.
Never considered that plants were so cleaver at taking on human predators.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Tristan_He on February 10, 2021, 11:43:02 PM
Hi Jeff, I think it's selection rather than the plants themselves changing. The collectors take whichever ones they can see, and as the more colourful ones are easier to spot, these get collected leaving the more cryptic ones behind. Over time this means that the population consists mainly of crytic forms.

Best wishes, Tristan

Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Jeffnz on February 11, 2021, 12:10:35 AM
Tristan
Found the article.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/20/chinese-flower-fritillaria-delavayi-evolved-less-visible-pickers\
Seems to be authentic' scientists'
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Tristan_He on February 11, 2021, 08:42:28 AM
Hi Jeff, yes that's the one, I remember seeing it too. It's common for people to write about 'evolving' as though it is an active thing / conscious choice, as in the Guardian article, which implies individual plants changing.  But if you click on the link to the paper in the journal (https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(20)31655-9) you will see that the abstract makes clear that it's selective pressure on the population driving evolution (i.e. colourful fritillaries being removed).

Although I would rather the frits weren't being collected, these processes never cease to cause wonder to me. And I suspect that if harvesting were prevented, the brightly coloured form would bounce back over time, because it will be more visible to pollinators.

Quite a few frits have multiple colour forms, I wonder if and how different selective pressures apply on wild populations of these?
 
Best wishes, Tristan
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Tristan_He on February 18, 2021, 04:59:45 PM
I have a question for Fritillaria growers - the last couple of seed exchanges there has been a plant listed as 'F. pyrenaica pale form'. I have a couple of potfuls of 1+ and 2+ seedlings of this coming on and am curious what to expect - is this the yellow form or a pale purple form? Is the donor out there or anyone who has grown this to flowering size?

Thanks! Tristan
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on February 21, 2021, 12:15:09 PM
I did try some pots of bulbs in the fridge in an attempt to delay growth but one of my flowering sized bulbs of Fritillaria verticillata Urdzhar showed its displeasure by rotting and leaving only a small daughter bulb in the pot. So they all came out and the other Fritillaria verticillata Urdzhar is now in flower (pictured below). Lastly I got this bulb sold as Fritillaria albiflora (but to my knowledge there no such species) last year and it is flowering well. Lets hope I can keep it going and find out what I should be calling it.

Colin
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on February 21, 2021, 12:16:43 PM
It has turned mild here and things are now moving. Going to the bulb bed, Fritillaria sewerzowii Black Bear has been in the bed since 2018 and as said before, getting larger. The picture below gives some idea of size with my finger in it and the square topped label in between is 2cm wide. Last autumn I put a spare bulb of what sold to me as Fritillaria anhuiensis in 2017 into the bulb bed (pictured below). I do not know if it is because I have not got it to flower yet but it does bulk up quite well. In the greenhouse the second striata is looking good and the gibbosas are getting going - a couple pictured below.

Colin
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: annew on February 23, 2021, 10:35:50 AM
It has turned mild here and things are now moving. Going to the bulb bed, Fritillaria sewerzowii Black Bear has been in the bed since 2018 and as said before, getting larger. The picture below gives some idea of size with my finger in it and the square topped label in between is 2cm wide. Last autumn I put a spare bulb of what sold to me as Fritillaria anhuiensis in 2017 into the bulb bed (pictured below). I do not know if it is because I have not got it to flower yet but it does bulk up quite well. In the greenhouse the second striata is looking good and the gibbosas are getting going - a couple pictured below.

Colin
Wow that F striata really makes an artist's eye pop!
Our first Frit is F. alburyana, a gift from a friend who was moving house.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Yann on February 26, 2021, 11:10:37 PM
Fritillaria davisii, also an early species, in the wild it's often faded end of february.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Ophrys on February 27, 2021, 08:18:20 AM
Dear Yann,

thank you for the good photos. I have Fritilaria since several years. It is growing well and is setting offspring, but it never flowered until now. :(
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Yann on March 06, 2021, 04:57:10 PM
Sometimes blooming doesn't happen because of temperatures. Patience is require but i'll bloom one day!!

Fritillaria caucasica, young bulbs from Kurt Vickery seeds, first time flowering.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on March 10, 2021, 04:51:14 PM
Anne Wright very nice Fritillaria alburyana.

Colin
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on March 10, 2021, 04:53:17 PM
Finally in the greenhouse, Fritillaria kotschyana which is also going to flower in the front grass again this year. It is not open yet but if I leave it till it opens ether a slug or bird will of had a go at it. Which they have already done to Fritillaria davisii by taking the buds off. In the bulb bed Fritillaria crassifolia ex JJA17242 has produced a flower. This is its second year in this outside bed.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on March 10, 2021, 04:55:26 PM
This next one is Fritillaria avromanica. I am going to have to think about how I grow this because like three others I got at the same time, as Sp nova , all have a tendency to flower at gravel level; very irritating. The next two pictures are of Fritillaria sibthorpiana subsp enginii. Which I think I should be calling Fritillaria enginii as it has been lifted to species level now. One Fritillaria latifolia var nobilis has come into flower earlier than I would normally expect.

Colin
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on March 10, 2021, 04:56:57 PM
The one group that do not seem to have been affected is the rhinopetalum. Three different gibbosas pictured below followed by a couple of stenanthera.

Colin
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: colin e on March 10, 2021, 04:58:04 PM
The temperature here has definitely given me more of a headache than normal in my unheated greenhouse this year. I have not been able to keep my moisture levels where I would like them in my pots. Why? - because we have had more cold nights (-6c) this year for which I would want low moisture levels and to add insult to injury they are then followed by +8c when I would want more moisture in the pots. So some plants have suffered like this Fritillaria crassifolia subsp hakkarensis (pictured below) which normally looks a lot better than this.

Colin
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Yann on March 13, 2021, 07:56:21 PM
Indeed challenging, you've a really nice collection.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Ophrys on March 17, 2021, 07:27:35 AM
The Fritillaria japonica flowers reliably every year but unfortunately it doesn't make offspring.

[attach=1]
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Tristan_He on March 19, 2021, 08:31:11 PM
Fritillaria bithynica

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

Fritillaria kotschyana

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Menai on March 21, 2021, 05:31:28 PM
Re Fritillaria striata
I was given some seed at the end of 2019. It germinated in January but I did not notice when it went dormant. It began to regrow in November which surprised me. When should it go dormant this year? Any advice on growing this species would be gratefully received.
Thank you

Erle
in Anglesey
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Maggi Young on March 31, 2021, 01:02:11 PM
News from Fritillaria Icones : new paper
 Evolution of Bird and Insect Flower Traits in Fritillaria L. (Liliaceae)

Katarzyna ROGUZ1, Laurence HILL2, Agata ROGUZ3, Marcin ZYCH1
Frontiers in Plant Science 12: 656783 (2021)
https://doi.org/10.3389/fpls.2021.656783

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2021.656783/full

http://www.fritillariaicones.com/info/news/news_2021/Roguz_et_al_2021.html
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Maggi Young on April 16, 2021, 02:28:20 PM
See these   posts in another  thread of the  Forum  for  Fritillarias from the  collection of Janis Ruksans :
https://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=18458.msg421120#msg421120

https://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=18458.msg421121#msg421121
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: ArnoldT on April 18, 2021, 11:18:58 PM
Fritillaria imperialis lutea maxima
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Rick R. on April 21, 2021, 01:10:01 AM
These are from the NARGS seed ex, packet labeled F. carica(Haha!)  Could it be a slip of the mind and they are F. caucasica?
-- it seems pretty textbook to me....

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Gail on April 21, 2021, 09:05:38 AM
Fritillaria don't do well with me and I've been picking lily beetles off a few unhappy looking plants. Just one F. imperialis 'William Rex' in flower;

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Claire Cockcroft on April 22, 2021, 04:48:21 AM
Fritillaria gussichiae

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Claire Cockcroft on April 22, 2021, 04:53:07 AM
Fritillaria pyrenaica

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Tristan_He on April 26, 2021, 08:19:07 PM
Nice Frits Claire!

Here are my pyrenaicas, grown from seed. Not a show quality pot but I love the variability. I sowed a lot of seed from these last year which will hopefully be enough to establish a nice population in the garden.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

[attachimg=5]
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: ebbie on April 27, 2021, 07:50:13 AM
Here are some North American fritillaries grown from seeds.

Fritillaria eastwoodiae
(https://up.picr.de/41066343nl.jpg)

Fritillaria purdyi
(https://up.picr.de/41066347ba.jpg)

Fritillaria pinetorum
(https://up.picr.de/41066345xy.jpg)
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Roma on May 02, 2021, 02:32:52 PM
Fritillaria meleagris

[attachimg=1]

Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Yann on May 02, 2021, 11:00:49 PM
Here in the wild they already faded 3 weeks ago.
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: olegKon on May 14, 2021, 04:48:19 PM
Peak season for Fritillaria here
1,2 Fritillaria sewertzovii showing different colors
[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

4.Fritillaria orientalis
[attachimg=3]

3.Fritillaria ruthenica
[attachimg=4]
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: olegKon on May 14, 2021, 04:53:11 PM
Some more: fritillaria Montana of different shades

[attachimg=1]


[attachimg=2]


[attachimg=3]


[attachimg=4]
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: olegKon on May 14, 2021, 04:57:20 PM
1. Fritillaria amana. Very tall this year
[attachimg=1]

2. Fritillaria drenovskii. Light coloured
[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: Fritillaria 2020/21 season
Post by: Tristan_He on July 11, 2021, 11:49:55 AM
Here are a couple of interesting images. Last year I ordered a couple of bulbs of Fritillaria grandiflora, but the seller sent me one bulb of grandiflora and one of kotschyana by mistake (some, such as the Fritillaria group, have these as forms of the same species). The two bulbs were planted in the same pot, so had the same treatment and were in close proximity, maximising the likelihood of cross-pollination.

The first image shows examples of the seed. On the left, seed from kotschyana, and on the right, grandiflora. You can see immediately a difference in colouration, but also in the shape of the seed (grandiflora are rounder with a tendency for the bottom edge to be concave and a narrower edge; kotschyana have a more triangular shape with a wider edge).

[attachimg=1]

The second image shows the amount of chaff. I had one pod from each bulb, and more than half of the seeds from each was non viable. Seed set was poor. You would expect this situation if a clone was selfed, but not if cross pollination had occurred and the resulting crosses were fertile. Maybe this just reflects the cold spring we had and poor conditions for pollinators. But an alternative explanation is that grandiflora and kotschyana don't cross easily.

[attachimg=2]

Are these two really just forms of the same species? My own view is probably not, though I don't really have enough experience with either to know for sure.
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