Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: David Nicholson on June 09, 2007, 07:42:23 PM
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In February I sowed some Dactylhoriza seed from the SRGC Seed Exchange but have had nil germination. I sowed them mixed with dry sand on top of the grit topping over JI seed compost with added grit and left them outside open to the weather. I have to say that after they were sown it rained heavily on and off throught the rest of February. Could they have been too wet? Was it the wrong time of year to sow them? Any advice would be appreciated. I have plenty of seed left to have anothe go.
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David The best thing to do is scatter your spare seed around some planted up troughs or some potted plants that sit outside and are not going to be repotted for a few years that is where we get most of our dactylohriza seedlings appearing.
It is a total waste of time to sow them in the way we sow other seeds - they never germinate.
For years I have cut off the seed heads and go around the troughs and other containers shaking the seed heads with good results.
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Thanks for that Ian, I will give it a try.
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Dactylorhiza spp., in common with all orchid seed, are best given sterile agar medium to be able to deliberately grow them from seed. If the seeds germinate in your garden you won't see any evidence for a couple of years as the seeds need to form a mutalistic association with a specific fungus. Only if the fungus is present in the soil will they germinate. In sterile medium there is no fungus, but soluble, organic nutrients (sugars and amino acids, not nitrates etc) provide the minute seeds with food.
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Only if the fungus is present in the soil will they germinate.
That's why the best results of all are from sowing the seed around Dactylorhiza plants already established, or at least round closely related species. Perhaps you could beg or buy a couple of pseudobulbs and then sow around those in a year or so.
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Thanks for that everyone. It leaves me with the conclusion that life's too short, so I shall move on to easier 'doers', consign my seeds to the dustbin, and buy a couple of plants when next I see any. ;D
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Probably the easier way, David ;)
All of ours have been brought in as plants. Some are bulking up nicely whilst others self seed to the extent of risking being called 'desirable weeds'!
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I bought my first Dacts at the first discussion weekend I attended - the second Elgin. I have two seedlings in the garden both with two leaves. One is in a nearby pot containing a dead Clematis. The other is in my peat bed
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Dac. seed is not like ordinary seed having no reserves and needing a fungal partner. It will spend several years below ground. I have had success scattering seed in the base of established plants like gentians where they will not get disturbed. Even then the success rate is minimal. Great patience is the only hope or of course purchase some if you are not into agar culture
Brian Wilson Aberdeen
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Hi everyone! I was just wondering, are Dactylohiza hard to grow from seed? I have never seen them available for sale here in Australia (unless I'm not looking hard enough?) but if I could get hold of some seed, if this is a viable option then I will try... I won't have to put them into sealed glass jars with Agar or anything will I? I have wanted this beautiful plant for years (especially after seeing the wonderful photos on Ian's Bulb log) and seeds may be my only way of getting them in my garden.
Thanks in advance,
Lauren
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Lauren,
Can't help with the seed, but if it's just D. fuchsii you're after I can send you a plant or two - just pm me with an address. Other Dact's are around - you'd have seen a few up at Woodbank last weekend if you went - but I haven't seen them offered.
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It is not impossible but you need some insight and time.
There are many tips on the net.
I Suggest Googling.
http://www.ewetel.net/~frank.meissner2/Homepage/1155448.htm
is unfortunately in German but quite useful.
http://www.lidaforsgarden.com/Orchids/svenska.htm
is by a pioneer in the field and partly in English.
Good luck
Göte
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Postscript
Try http://members.cox.net/ahicks51/osp/
as well
It is entirely in English
Göte
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I actually didn't see the other post by Mark about growing Dactylohiza from seed, so I apologise for doubling up!
Edit by Maggi: I have combined the threads :)
Thank you VERY much for the offer Rob! I am not familiar with that particular species (or any species for that matter) I just love the gorgeous magenta colouring. I will try to send you a private message when I work out how.
As for those links, it does look rather complex on those websites... Cliff & Carlo's methods sound pretty good to me.
Thanks everyone!
Lauren
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In the Winter 2006 issue of the Alpine Garden Club of British Columbia Bulletin http://www.agc-bc.ca/bulletin.asp (http://www.agc-bc.ca/bulletin.asp) there is an interesting article on germinating orchid seed on cardboard. I haven't had a chance to try it myself but I have seen it used for germinating Dactylorhiza seed last year and they were doing well after the first season. I'm not sure if they have been pricked out this season but hopefully I will find out in January.
David
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David,
Thank you for this.
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I have successfully grown Disa from seed on moss, so guess that might be worth a try too.
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Disa ssp. is one of the view which is possible to raise on moss and peat.
For Dactylorhiza it`s necessary to raise them in laboratory with in vitro culture vessels, on sterile medium (see pict, 1 year in flasks) or with symbiotic funghi (see pict 2, symb. raised seedlings, fresh on soil).
But I have obtained germination in the garden on the bank of ponds.If there grew Dactylorhiza some years, the symbiotic funghi are distributed in the soil, so it is possible for seeds to germinate.While mature plants dissappear after the second or third flower, new seedling appear on different places at the bank.
So repotting every year of the Dactylorhiza in the garden -and remove of old, dead parts, refresh the soil-is very important for a long preservation of this plants.
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I grew a couple of species in pots in an open frame for several years where they flowered and seeded and now many come up every year in our hosta pots of which we have quite a lot and also to a lesser extent in other pots..I dig them out and put them in the garden.I think the seed around potted plants is in perhaps less hostile environment than the open garden.
Now I have ophrys lutea seeding around in the greenhouse.
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Tony,
Ophrys seeding around? :o :o :o Wow!! (to put it mildly). Any of that genus are rare as rocking horse droppings here in Aus. :o The idea of them seeding around is almost mind boggling!!!!!! :o :o :o
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In the Winter 2006 issue of the Alpine Garden Club of British Columbia Bulletin http://www.agc-bc.ca/bulletin.asp (http://www.agc-bc.ca/bulletin.asp) there is an interesting article on germinating orchid seed on cardboard.
This is very interesting! It makes sowing orchids seem very easy. If some forumist has more experience with this method I would love to hear about it.
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On one side of my property is a slope facing the north, above the slope is the municipality's lawn. In the slope, I have both Daktylorhiza and Platanthera, both seeding plentiful on the grass above me. In the spring I may be quick to pick home escapees, before the municipal staff mows the lawn.
Ulla
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During this last summer three flowering plants of Listera ovata have appeared in the garden presumably self seeding from a plant I have in the frame. Ugly but interesting and I have resisted my wifes desire to weed them out. More may appear this year as they were only noticed when they flowered.
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Lauren , my clumps of Dactylorhiza elata and fuchsii [or is it d. maculata ssp. fuchsii ? ],are in bloom at the moment , nice, so I could send you a few in autumn , please let me have your address in due time ,
Otto.
Tony Willis, should you ever have a few seeds of Ophrys lutea and /or any other Ophrys species to spare , they would be much appreciated,
otto.
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Howdy All,
Did this inspire anyone to try from seed since this topic was last posted in? If so, how have the results been? Tony, your Ophrys lutea still seeding around in the glasshouse? Details everyone, details!! ;D
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There's a discussion in The Terrestrial Orchid Forum on germinating orchid seed using the 'Cardboard Method'.
Increasing reports of success using this cheap and non-technical methodology!!
http://forum.terrorchid.org/viewtopic.php?p=8319#8319 (http://forum.terrorchid.org/viewtopic.php?p=8319#8319)
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Out of interest, how long does orchid seed last for un-sown? My understanding was that it had no reserves and had to be sown immediately, but I was talking to someone recently who said that orchid seed received from the northern hemisphere should be kept until the time of year that our plants are surfacing here, rather than sowing them immediately on arrival. This indicates that there must be some storage capability and I am now wondering how long it can be stored for?
I'll go and have a look at that link when I get the chance. It may very well mean I start asking people for Dact seed when they have it, to at least have an experiment. ;D It would be so cool to be successful. 8)
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I applied this cardboard method to seed sowing in 2010.
1) cardboard cut into strips and placed into a take away cake container
2) The addition of 'juice' from my compost heap
3) The addition of lignin consuming fungi from beech woodlands
4) The addition of root samples from target orchid species
Sow the Seed
5) Left to get frosted for a couple of days
6) Moved indoors to temps 3 to 9c and in the dark
The joy of this system is that aseptic conditions are not required!!!!
Lignin or lignen is a complex chemical compound most commonly derived from wood, and an integral part of the secondary cell walls of plants and some algae.
What does lignin look like? There is a beech wood near me
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There's a difference between lignin, a substance derived mostly from wood and Lignum (Lignum vitae) a type of wood........ :-X
http://cool.conservation-us.org/byorg/abbey/ap/ap04/ap04-4/ap04-402.html
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Mark,
Essentially lignin along with cellulose is what makes up trees. So the organic matter on the woodland floor that is not fully decomposed is comprised of lignin and cellulose ( and other compounds ). Many woodland orchids have been found to require treatments to modify the cell wall of the seed to allow germination. Possibly the use of a fungus that makes its living from digesting lignin may be of assistance in germinating such species of orchid by digesting the tough cell wall.
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Chris,
Did you use the same "innoculation" method for your cardboard germinations? I'm wondering if some of my potting mix from my Spiranthes for example or some soil from around my Dact elata would do the job?
Mark,
When you sowed the seed, where did you sow it? Onto the surface of the cardboard, did you have multiple pieces piled onto each other? Juice from a wormfarm OK instead of the compost heap? The problem I have is the pieces of root from target orchid species. I don't have many Dacts etc, hence the reason for wanting to grow from seed in the first place. ;)
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Paul,
You only need a section of one live root from your Dactylorhiza, dissect it up and place sections throughout your cardboard matrix.
Yes, why not use some soil from around your existing orchids, I would mix it up, let it settle so any weed seeds drop out of suspension and use the fluid to soak your cardboard. Apply as many 'methods' to one trial as you can to increase your chances of success, in the end I guess you want plants not a series of control experiments! ;)
I allowed my tubs to sit for a month beofre I sowed any seed into them, I hoped this would allow any fungi to esablish and spread into the matrix. Seed sown onto the surface of the matrix, the cardbaord is placed with the open end of the corrugations oriented vertically.
Attached pics from a new sowing onto a matrix innoculated with the B1 fungus, this has been seeded with two different species.
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Wow! Very, very cool. So you keep them covered from light, or is that red blanket just sitting on top of the stack? I have got to try this at some point I think. ;D
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Paul I copied the info from the orchid web site :-[ but I'm very interested in the cardboard method
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Paul,
The blanket is there to block out the light. Again literature ( and experience ) indicates that high light levels can adversely effect germination. I guess logically orchid seed does not germinate at the soil surface in nature.
Mark,
This is the link, which was from my posting on the Terrestrial Orchid Forum
http://forum.terrorchid.org/viewtopic.php?p=8319#8319 (http://forum.terrorchid.org/viewtopic.php?p=8319#8319)
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Questions, questions ...
Can this be done at anytime of year?
How long does everything stay in the boxes?
Do you put them outside?
When you can see tiny tubers do you plant them?
How long to flowering?
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Yeah, what he said!! ;D
Inquiring minds want to know. ;)
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Howdy All,
Did this inspire anyone to try from seed since this topic was last posted in? If so, how have the results been? Tony, your Ophrys lutea still seeding around in the glasshouse? Details everyone, details!! ;D
Paul at least two are growing but it is the middle of winter (-5c last night) so they are not flowering yet although I do have two other Ophrys lutea in flower
I think I will give the cardboard method a try when I get seed of varoius species later in the year although the dactylorhiza self seed in the garden anyway.
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Glad to hear it Tony. I've only ever seen one Ophrys in person, down at Otto's. They're beauties, and some of the species that have appeared in this forum are :o :o.
I think I have to put in a quick note to anyone who might have spare seed of any of these terrestrial orchid types we're mentioning in the coming season (or next season, or the season after!)...... there would be a welcome home for them here, particularly now that I have some fun experimenting to do. ;D I can't guarantee that they'll germinate and grow happily here, but I'd like to give them a darn good try. ;D ;D
Oh and Tony, I'm jealous to a degree of your -5. Could we split the difference between us, we're forecast 35, 37, 37, 34, 33, 35 and 33oC for the next week. Averaging that out there'd be some nice mid teens in the temps which would be absolutely glorious right now, although the plants would get VERY confused. ;D Our lowest night temp forecast, other than tonight which is a little cooler, is 19oC. Not looking forward to this week. Yukko!
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Questions, questions ...
Can this be done at anytime of year?
How long does everything stay in the boxes?
Do you put them outside?
When you can see tiny tubers do you plant them?
How long to flowering?
I'd suggest a summer or autumn sowing would be best, seed as fresh as possible.
Transplant once the seedlings are a good size, I will cut mine out of the matrix and
plant in the open garden in early spring if ready, to allow them to establish before the
summer bake.
I left all my cartons in the barn until they had been frosted to around -5c for several nights.
After this I moved them indoors into an unheated room +3 to +9c
I guess you could try planting out the protocorms on the matrix but this may adversely effect
conditions for the fungus which will result in the death of the protocorm. Wait till your orchid
can photsynthesise and then plant out would be my approach.
In the UK I had Dactylorhizas flowering in their second year, more normally their third year.
Orchis and Ophrys species maybe 4 plus years to flowering.
I've included a more recent photo of the Spiranthes, since I last posted a pic in
Germinating Now? 2011 you can see the pace of development. Second picture
shows the wealth of protocorms developing, these are only visible when I photograph the
matrix.
If has been my understanding and experience that orchids grown symbiotically develop with a
greater degree of vigour than those grown asymbiotically.
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W :o W look at those Spiranthes babies
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Hristo,
your method of growing orchids symbiotically looks very interesting - nevertheless: at least for subcultering the symbiotic fungus, you need to work under sterile conditions. Although contaminations will not obviously show first, the fungus seems to get weaker and weaker and gradually loose it's symbiotic potential. I have been working with the B1 for at least 3 years now and it really seems to be a genetically very stable and potent fungus - if it's culture is beeing kept clean!
It would also be interesting to follow the ideas of Dr. Heinrich Beyrle, who suggested to create fungus-spawn and mix it up with standard-substrates in order to subsequently sow seeds or grow seedlings on these substrates.
Just two questions on your method, Hristo:
1.) Could you please write something about the trays you are using (origin, dimensions)?
2.) What is the liquid made up, you are using to soak the cardboards?
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Hi Winwen,
Yes subculturing would require sterile conditions to isolate the symbiant. My intention, should this system yield viable plants, is to restart the process each season. The whole 'experiment' is interested in avoiding the need for sterility or the need to grow symbiotically in the exclusive presence of the symbiant fungus. That there will be 'contamination' there is no doubt, my interest is to see how the developing protocorms / plants fare in the face of that contamination, afterall, orchids manage to reproduce in the 'wild' in the face of massive contamination.
2011 Protocorm development so far for the following species;
D.sambucina,D.romana,D.saccifera,P.laxiflora ssp. elegans, O.laxiflora, G.conopsea, O.militaris, S.romanzoffiana
The Spiranthes were sown in May 2010 and the other species in October 2010
The cartons are 18cmx12cmx7cm with sealable lids
The liquid was made by soaking material from my compost heap and soil from my meadow in rain water, soaked for 24 hrs and strained off.
Cardboard strips are 2cm high.
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and a last question from me because tomorrow I'm going to a beech wood. How much decayed wood do I need. I dont want to be awkward but go you tell us the the whole process like a recipe. How wet is the card? what do I do with the lignin ...
1. fast food container
2. sterilise it
3. cut strips of card
4.
5.
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Mark,
Not much, but you want to look for dacaying wood at the horizon between the 'mould' layer and the 'soil' proper. Look for chunks with visibly active fungal growth. I took these and shaved them down into small pieces which I scatterd over the cardboard matrix. Remember your 'Juice' is a 24 hr marinade of compost heap material and soil, strained and settled.
Your cardboard should fit snuggly into the container, the container should have a sealable lid.
Soak the cardboard in the juice, stand and pour off the excess after an hour or so.
Add your Beech / fungus chips.
Allow to sit for at least 1 month before sowing.
I have about 8 successful sowings out of a total of 30 this year , so you need to think big, if you only sow one tub your chances of success are somewhat reduced!
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something interesting http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/reprint/85/6/829.pdf
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Thanks Yann
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Chris,
I take it the juice is going to be a fertiliser and whatever fungus bacteria are in the source material of it?
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Hi Neil,
My assumption has been that the juice will carry fungal spores and micro-nutrients, as well as necessary moisture. The cardboard is the carbohydrate food source for the fungus. The lack of availability of simple or more complex sugars as compared to aspectic symbiotic or asymbiotic methods helps hold unwanted fungal/bacterial proliferation at bay, IMHO. ;)
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Thanks Chris
Did you use fresh or dried seeds?
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This is so exciting. Roll on August 2011.
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OK, a slight detour here...... I'm being sent some Ophrys seed. What would the suggestion be for trying to germinate these guys? I'm tempted to just try them sown in the Spirathes pots to see the results? Spiranthes fungal links I've heard are apparently quite useful for orchid germination? Not sure I'll have time to do a whole setup of the system like Chris has. What do you think?
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Neil,
I harvested from June onwards and sowed in October. You can sow fresh but only onto pre-prepared media/matrices. A few months of cool,dry storage does not seem to have effected viability. I know other platers who have posted on this site will go into the field with pre-prepared media and sow immediately. ( In-vitro )
Mark,
Get started now, if you can get your tubs, cardboard etc you can check before you sow that you have developed fungal communities ready! I am thinking of getting another 40 tubs prepared this month ready for the seed harvesting season.
Paul, split your seed if you have enough, try some different approaches, sow with Spiranthes, I have Ophrys germinations in the open gadren in association with Thymus species. Malmgren points out that Spiranthes/Dactylorhiza are amongst the easier species to germinate symbiotically, Ophrys may not associate with the fungus that germinates these species.
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I have a question or note.
Some literature states that although dactylorhizas do need fungi for germinating in nature they will get rid of them later and may be clean.
On the other hand "juice" from the compost is likely to be full of fungal matter.
So do we know for sure that the inoculation from orchid roots is essential?
This is of interest to anyone who does not have access to orchid roots but gets seed from a seed exchange.
By the way; Malmgren states that pineapple juice in small additions seems to have a beneficial effect not only supplying sugars but also some kind of growth promoting substance. Since he is very successful I tend to take his advice seriously.
Göte
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Hristo's method of growing orchids is symbiotically, while Svante Malmgren does it asymbiotically. For many asymbiotic media, pineapple-juice is a good addition (as is coconut-water and potato-dextrose-extract too) but not for the symbiotic media. If you grow orchids symbiotically and add starch or sugar - you have to work sterile! Hristo is right when saying that the use of cardboard as carbon source makes it possible to work not sterile. This is what Dr. Beyrle also stated before (I think in the 1990s).
Some postings before, Hristo wrote that he uses the B1. This is a powerful symbiotic fungus. You dont need to add other fungi (with the compost-heap-juice) but you also could use a well balanced fertilizer-mixture together with micro-elements, B-Vitamins and some proteins (organic Nitrogenium).
For better reliability of the procedure it would be better not to use the compst-heap-juice. Not all compst-heaps have the same compounds!
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Hi Winwen,
My use of this method really stems from a desire to move away from chemicals and lab procedures. This year I may actually set up some control experiments. Attempts so far have been about getting results, 2011 is a chance to refine procedures and ensure repeatability( with luck ). The initial literature I read suggested only the use of compost juices in germinating Bletilla species.
I suspect there are a large number of variations to the cardboard method that can be attempted. Years of fun!!!
Gote,
I have only just sown 4 cartons that have the B1 fungus all previous cartons gained their fungus from compost juice / meadow soil / woodland detritus or the roots of the target orchid species. No control was applied so I can't say which of those four potential fungal sources was the donor. Now I have tubs with germinations I will take samples from those tubs and innoculate some tubs for 2011 sowings and again try a range of species with the active fungus from 2010. The tubs from 2010 that have not succeeded could be down to incompatible fungal partners or no partner present.
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Thanks Chris, some experimentation coming up soon :)
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My local nature reserve has quite a good show of Orchids each year and this year I bought ( Honest, I did) some seed of ophyrs apifera (bee orchid). I did wonder about taking say a couple of teaspoons of soil from the area where they grow and using this to 'inoculate' the compost (for want of a better phrase) but this looks like it's worth a punt.
Any spare plants I proposed to plant back in the NR subject to the Wildlife trust saying it was OK.
Dactylorhiza were going to be my next attempt
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My local nature reserve has quite a good show of Orchids each year and this year I bought ( Honest, I did) some seed of ophyrs apifera (bee orchid). I did wonder about taking say a couple of teaspoons of soil from the area where they grow and using this to 'inoculate' the compost (for want of a better phrase) but this looks like it's worth a punt.
Any spare plants I proposed to plant back in the NR subject to the Wildlife trust saying it was OK.
Nick that is a big no, as the genetic make up of you seed will be different to that on the reserve.
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Hi Winwen,
Gote,
I have only just sown 4 cartons that have the B1 fungus all previous cartons gained their fungus from compost juice / meadow soil / woodland detritus or the roots of the target orchid species. No control was applied so I can't say which of those four potential fungal sources was the donor. Now I have tubs with germinations I will take samples from those tubs and innoculate some tubs for 2011 sowings and again try a range of species with the active fungus from 2010. The tubs from 2010 that have not succeeded could be down to incompatible fungal partners or no partner present.
Looking forward to lern about it when you have results. I think I will try myself thie summer - it seems so much easier for a bungler like me.
Göte
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There's a difference between lignin, a substance derived mostly from wood and Lignum (Lignum vitae) a type of wood........ :-X
http://cool.conservation-us.org/byorg/abbey/ap/ap04/ap04-4/ap04-402.html
I have a rolling pin made of Lignum Vitae, which I bought off a stall in Jamaica in 1993. Bowls (the lawn variety) used to be made of it and ship propeller bearings too, as the wood is oily. Put it in water and it sinks like a stone.
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Hello Hristo (and all other orchid-on-cardboard-sowers),
how are your Dacties doing?
I'm really curious how far they are now!
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me also.
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I wish I had read this link earlier,I have just sent for some Dactylohiza seed from Plantsworld seeds in the U.K.
if I had known they were this much trouble to germinate I would have chosen something else. ??? ??? ???
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Do you grow Hostas? Sprinkle the seed around the Hosta. Dont do it on a breezy or windy day because they will blow away
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Thanks Mark,
I will try that.