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Author Topic: Paeonia hybrida (species?)  (Read 2865 times)

zephirine

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Paeonia hybrida (species?)
« on: March 29, 2011, 12:32:08 PM »
I fell across a beauty last week-end, and couldn't help bringing it home. The name in itself is quite confusing: according to the nursery lady, it is a species, not a hybrid!
From what I found on the net, it would also be called P. intermedia, and there is some discussion about it: some say it is a true species, native to restricted and protected areas in Caucasus, others pretend it is a (natural?) cross between tenuifolia and anomala.
Has someone here some light to shed on this mystery?
Anyway, I love it, it looks like an "expanded" tenuifolia! I placed the pot close to the "true" tenuifolia for comparison purposes. Both foliages are deeply divided, but P. hybrida is ltaller, and the segments are larger too. But it may be due to the hybrida having been grown under tunnel so far, I don't know...
Between Lyon and Grenoble/France -1500 ft above sea level - USDA zone 7B

Lvandelft

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Re: Paeonia hybrida (species?)
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2011, 01:03:39 PM »
Zephirine, did you look under P. x smouthii? Don't know if your plant has red flowers though.... :-\
Luit van Delft, right in the heart of the beautiful flowerbulb district, Noordwijkerhout, Holland.

Sadly Luit died on 14th October 2016 - happily we can still enjoy his posts to the Forum

Maggi Young

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Re: Paeonia hybrida (species?)
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2011, 01:34:52 PM »
Zeph, see this these links...
http://www.paeo.de/aaa/05337.html  for details  .... and this for wonderful pictures from Olga of a plant that might be the same as yours... also the thread has some more discussion, (further on) of these plants. ......

http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4975.msg154640#msg154640

 8)
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

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zephirine

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Re: Paeonia hybrida (species?)
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2011, 02:22:58 PM »
I had seen these links, Maggi, and have been looking for Little Red Gem ever since, lol...I even sent a mail to a scottish nursery (with no answer so far) to try to locate it.
But this peony I found seems to be known from other origins:
http://www.pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Paeonia%20hybrida
 
http://www.aussiegardening.com.au/findplants/plant/Paeonia_hybrida
 
http://econews.uz/econews/rus/lib/RedBook/HTMLs_ANG/160.htm
No mention of P. smouthii there...I'm puzzled!
Between Lyon and Grenoble/France -1500 ft above sea level - USDA zone 7B

Lesley Cox

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Re: Paeonia hybrida (species?)
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2011, 08:26:54 PM »
I saw P. x Smouthii in the UK back in 1981 and have lusted after it ever since. I don't think it's in NZ.

There are many tenuifolia hybs though. I have one called 'Early Dawn' and there are others around here. All are well worth growing.
Lesley Cox - near Dunedin, lower east coast, South Island of New Zealand - Zone 9

Gail

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Re: Paeonia hybrida (species?)
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2011, 09:28:33 PM »
According to Martin Page's The Gardener's Peony "Most botanists consider that P. hybrida is a natural hybrid between P. anomala and P. tenuifolia, although Lynch had long ago (1890) reported that he had seen it growing in the Caucasus.  Halda (1997) considers that it is a synonym of var intermedia but it is much taller than P. anomala and has narrower leaf segments.  It has bright crimson-red flowers and tomentose carpels."

Unfortunately I don't have the new Kew monograph on peonies to see what Hong De-Yuan has to say - his is by far the most up-to-date and authoritative book.
Gail Harland
Norfolk, England

zephirine

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Re: Paeonia hybrida (species?)
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2011, 05:06:41 AM »
Very interesting, Gail, thank you! It seems to confirm the text in the Red Book of Uzbekistan (third link above). I don't have the Kew monograph. Let's hope someone who owns it will happen to read this topic and tell us about P. hybrida....
The plant comes from a reputed french peony nursery (Rivière). I will also pay them a call, hoping they can tell me more, and where their plant comes from...
Leslie, I felt exactly the same as you, when I saw Olga's pics of Little Red Gem! Lol...
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Leena

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Re: Paeonia hybrida (species?)
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2011, 08:41:11 AM »

Unfortunately I don't have the new Kew monograph on peonies to see what Hong De-Yuan has to say - his is by far the most up-to-date and authoritative book.

I don't have Hong's book either (a bit too expensive, even though I am sure it is worth the money), but here in Paeon.de- pages  when you click P.intermedia   there is a link to a local copy pdf-file, which is Hong's A taxonomic revision of the paeonia anomala complex.

According to Hong P.intermedia is very close to P.anomala, the differences are that P.intermedia has fusiform or tuberous roots and inner 2-4 sepals are rounded but non-caudate at apex, and P.anomala has carrot-shaped roots (never tuberous) and sepals are mostly caudate.

Leena from south of Finland

Maggi Young

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Re: Paeonia hybrida (species?)
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2011, 09:59:39 AM »
Hello Leena, good to have you begin to post... and with such  useful info, too.... many thanks.
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

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Leena

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Re: Paeonia hybrida (species?)
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2011, 01:23:25 PM »
Thank you Maggi, there is so much to read and learn here :)

I'm excited about P.intermedia, because just this winter I got some P.intermedia seeds from Göteborg Bothanical garden from Sweden (and P.mairei seeds too), and it will be really interesting to see what it will be like, compared to P.anomala.

I'm a little confused about P.hybrida, here (if you click the third hybrida) it says that there are two different ones: the other is synonym of P.intermedia and the other is synonym of P.tenuifolia var biebersteiniana, and then there is the Paeonia x hybrida, which we have in Finland (and also Sweden) which is said to be hybrid between P.anomala and P.tenuifolia ::)
I have a young P x hybrida plant (gotten from a friend, and old Finnish garden strain), but it hasn't flowered yet, and I don't know what it's roots are like.
Leena from south of Finland

zephirine

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Re: Paeonia hybrida (species?)
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2011, 02:14:20 PM »
Thank you so much, Leena, for your contribution!
You know, I have the feeling that everyone is a little confused about P. hybrida...lol !
I called M. Rivière this morning. He doesn't remember where he got the plant from, but called a friend who has the Hong Book. He told me that according to this book, P. hybrida is definitely a species, and not a hybrid, from the caucasus (including Uzbekistan). Also called P. intermedia, and wrongly considered by some people as a cross between tenuifolia and  anomala, or as a subspecies of anomala.
This seems to confirm what I had read, but anyway we both agreed that it's only a man's words, however expert he can be, and there is still a lot to do to sort out all these anomala-looking plants...maybe, in the future, DNA analyses might help sort them out?
I'll never be sure I have a "true" P. hybrida, but I'll keep the name, however weird it is!
Thank you everyone for your help, and keep the info coming if you have any!
Between Lyon and Grenoble/France -1500 ft above sea level - USDA zone 7B

Gail

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Re: Paeonia hybrida (species?)
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2011, 02:16:15 PM »
Hi Leena, I hadn't realised you were from Finland.  Have you got the book Pionit by Rea Peltola and Vesa Koivu?  It is probably my favourite peony book, despite the fact that I can't read it! It is full of the most beautiful peony pictures including several useful pictures showing large rootstocks of plants - P. hybrida included.  I wish someone would do an English translation, I'm struggling to learn Spanish at the moment but don't think I shall ever get my head round Finnish.
Gail Harland
Norfolk, England

Leena

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Re: Paeonia hybrida (species?)
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2011, 03:16:19 PM »
Yes, Pionit  book has really beautiful pictures :)

So if P.intermedia and P.hybrida are synonyms, then also I have P.hybrida... after the seeds germinate. :) 
Leena from south of Finland

 


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