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Author Topic: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse  (Read 512607 times)

Katherine J

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2008, 09:46:51 AM »
1 piece of s. transylvanica.   :P
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Katherine J

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2008, 10:08:31 AM »
Although I see that in many places it is written transsylvanica, even more, transsilvanica! :-\ >:(

In my latin dictionary there is Transylvania, transylvanus, transylvanica, etc.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 10:22:40 AM by Kathrine J »
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Lvandelft

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2008, 11:22:04 AM »
Well Kathrine I think we should it leave to the taxonomists.
Plantfinder gives "transsivanica" and I used always two "s"and "y", because I learned so long ago.
What's in a name, I am a happy gardener.  :D :D :D
Luit van Delft, right in the heart of the beautiful flowerbulb district, Noordwijkerhout, Holland.

Sadly Luit died on 14th October 2016 - happily we can still enjoy his posts to the Forum

Martin Baxendale

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #63 on: March 18, 2008, 11:58:54 AM »
Well Kathrine I think we should it leave to the taxonomists.
Plantfinder gives "transsivanica" and I used always two "s"and "y", because I learned so long ago.
What's in a name, I am a happy gardener.  :D :D :D

But it wasn't named by a taxonomist. It was named by the nursery (van Tubergen of the Netherlands) who introduced it, and is not a recognised species or sub-species, just an informal garden name, so has no real taxonomic blessing.

I imagine it must have been named using a Dutch spelling of Transylvania, which is unfortunate as I think we'd all agree it would be best if plants were named after people and places using the spelling that person or place uses rather than some other local spelling (out of respect, and to maintain uniformity in naming around the world). Unfortunately we're now stuck with various spellings in literature going back nearly 100 years.

I'm sure no-one means any disrespect to your home region, Kathrine, and a name is important if it's yours or your country's (I'm sure at least some forumist might be a little annoyed by someone who insisted on spelling Scotland Scottland). I personally use 'transylvanica' since there's been much confusion over the spelling in the past and I thought I might as well use the correct geographical name rather than pick one of the various informal names you find in catalogues.   :)
Martin Baxendale, Gloucestershire, UK.

Katherine J

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #64 on: March 18, 2008, 12:37:30 PM »
I'm sure no-one means any disrespect to your home region, Kathrine,

Never thought of that. :) Every time I see something that I knew otherwise, I become curious what was the thruth.  ;D
So, sorry, Luit for "correcting" you, now I think you have also right, as I said, it was called in many ways.
But I agree with
it would be best if plants were named after people and places using the spelling that person or place uses rather than some other local spelling
So I will call it transylvanica, but won't be huffy (never was) if you call it transsylvanica. ;)
The End.
 ;D
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Boyed

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #65 on: March 18, 2008, 01:48:22 PM »
Luit,

Fringed tulips now are very popular and admired by growers in Russia. I also enjoy them, but prefer more other divisions, as fringed tulips are mostly small-flowered and more succeptable to colour-breaking-virus, than others.
Zhirair, Tulip collector, bulb enthusiast
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Anthony Darby

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #66 on: March 18, 2008, 02:35:29 PM »
I was born in Transylvania

Cool 8). but, as alpine gardeners, we are all "children of the light" not "children of the night". ;)
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Gerry Webster

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #67 on: March 18, 2008, 03:27:40 PM »
But it wasn't named by a taxonomist. It was named by the nursery (van Tubergen of the Netherlands) who introduced it, and is not a recognised species or sub-species, just an informal garden name, so has no real taxonomic blessing.

Until reading this thread I had always used "transylvanica" which would be correct if this was a specific epithet (which I assumed it was). However, looking around, "transsilvanica" seems to be used commonly in the UK. If this is the original form of the name bestowed on the plant by van Tubergen then surely we should stick to it.
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Martin Baxendale

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2008, 03:53:55 PM »
Until reading this thread I had always used "transylvanica" which would be correct if this was a specific epithet (which I assumed it was). However, looking around, "transsilvanica" seems to be used commonly in the UK. If this is the original form of the name bestowed on the plant by van Tubergen then surely we should stick to it.

Strictly speaking we shouldn't be using any Latinised name for what is a garden name, not a species or sub-species. Van Tubergen named it as a sub-species of solida, transsylvanica, but it wasn't accepted as a sub-species. And under the International Rules of Nomenclature, you can't use the Latinised 'Transsylvanica' as a garden cultivar name.

The original name in V.Tubergen's catalogue was transsylvanica, which has since translated in various catalogues to transsilvanica, transilvanica, transylvanica, transsylvanica. How do you decide what to do? Use the correct geographical name or the false species name that V. Tubergen shouldn't have given the plant in the first place? I guess the important thing is that everyone knows what  you mean even if the spellings are a bit variable. There are cases of original names being changed later (actual genuine species names) where the spelling was later found not to be the correct name - e.g. Crocus tommasinianus, which was previously wrongly spelled for many years with just one 'm'. It's a bit like that old thing of asking for directions (how do we get to where we should be?) only to be told "well, I wouldn't start from here" !   :)
Martin Baxendale, Gloucestershire, UK.

Lvandelft

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2008, 05:01:32 PM »
Hello all,
Kathrine and I were talking about HEPATICA trans(s)ylvanica which is an old name and has been for long time also called Hepatica angulosa.
I don’t think van Tubergen gave this Hepatica ever a name.

The author of

Hep. transsilvanica is M. Fuss (He gave this name in 1848)
Hep. transsylvanica is J. Heuffel

Hep. angulosa is ( Lam.) DC
   I can understand that this is not the right name because Lamarck received a flower of Hepatica triloba together with the leaf of a Cortusa matthioli and so gave it this wrong name.

Kathrine, this story is to read in:Magyar növeny lapok VII, pp. 146, 1883.

Since 1851 the authors of Hep. angulosa were Schott & Kotschy .

About the naming of Corydalis solida trans… I know nothing at this moment.
Luit van Delft, right in the heart of the beautiful flowerbulb district, Noordwijkerhout, Holland.

Sadly Luit died on 14th October 2016 - happily we can still enjoy his posts to the Forum

Gerry Webster

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2008, 05:24:00 PM »
This is getting confusing.
Like Luit & Kathrine, I was talking about Hepatica. One author I looked at (Myers, AGS Bull. 58(2), 144) refers to H.transsilvanica Fuss. Is this no longer an accepted name? According to W.T. Stearn the correct geographical epithet would be 'transylvanica' from Transylvania.

Martyn, Were you talking about Hepatica or Corydalis?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 05:44:23 PM by Gerry Webster »
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Martin Baxendale

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2008, 05:32:53 PM »
Hello all,
Kathrine and I were talking about HEPATICA trans(s)ylvanica which is an old name and has been for long time also called Hepatica angulosa.
I don’t think van Tubergen gave this Hepatica ever a name.

Oops!!  You're right of course, Luit!!  I took an interest halfway through your discussion with Kathrine, when you were both just discussing the name 'transsylvanica' versus 'transylvanica' without mentioning the genus. And for some reason I thought you were discussing the corydalis!  Mea culpa!  Perhaps it was because I saw pics from you of corydalis from the flower show.

Even with an accepted species name like Hepatica transsylvanica, though, it's still an interesting point whether the spelling should be the original "incorrect" name for the region (according to how the local people spell it) or the more "correct" spelling as used by the local people. As I mentioned Crocus tommasinianus before, where the name was correctly applied taxanomically and long-established, but was still changed to "mm" because the spelling was not how the man spelled his name.

Anyway, I have caused enough confusion for one day, so I'll shut up now.   :-[

 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 05:48:35 PM by Martin Baxendale »
Martin Baxendale, Gloucestershire, UK.

Gerry Webster

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2008, 05:41:06 PM »
Martin, this discussion evidently confused me about your name as well. My apologies!
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Martin Baxendale

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2008, 05:44:15 PM »
Martin, this discussion evidently confused me about your name as well. My apologies!

No problem, Gerry. My confusion was much greater.   :D
Martin Baxendale, Gloucestershire, UK.

Paul T

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Re: Remarks from the Weekly KAVB Flower Show - Lisse
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2008, 10:38:26 AM »
Luit,

The Chionoscilla is rather interesting, but those Corydalis solida are stunning.  What a colour range!!  And imagine what other colour combination would occur if you then crossed those carefully together!!?  Wonderful pics!!  Thanks for posting.
Cheers.

Paul T.
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