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Author Topic: Campanula alpina variations  (Read 3537 times)

Gabriela

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Campanula alpina variations
« on: September 23, 2016, 02:25:10 AM »
I have been staring at this Campanula alpina seedling picture I took today for quite a while (AGS seedex 2015 wild collected). My mistake - seeds were from garden plant.
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Something didnt seem right, so I went and look after images with a young plant I grew from seeds collected in the Carpathians a few years ago.
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Can they be so different? I started to search and found this very interesting article - High genetic differentiation in the alpine plant Campanula alpina Jacq. (Campanulaceae): evidence for glacial survival in several Carpathian regions and long-term isolation between the Carpathians and the Alps. Took me a while to find the free pdf.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Michal_Ronikier/publication/5566675_High_genetic_differentiation_in_the_alpine_plant_Campanula_alpina_Jacq_Campanulaceae_evidence_for_glacial_survival_in_several_Carpathian_regions_and_long_isolation_between_the_Carpathians_and_the_East/links/569654c508ae34f3cf1d9209.pdf

This may explain the differences but I would like to hear other opinions. Maybe someone else grew this little gem and can show pictures.
I looked back on the Haut- Chitelet thread at their Campanula alpina and even the flower shape is different comparing with the Carpathians form.
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With this occasion I also discovered one of my C. alpina picture on the AGS website, not that I remember being asked permission :-\

* I should add that I presume the AGS seeds were coll. somewhere in the Alps.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 12:13:33 AM by Gabriela »
Gabriela
Ontario, zone 5
http://botanicallyinclined.org/

Tristan_He

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Re: Campanula alpina variations
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2016, 08:01:44 AM »
I'm afraid I don't know Gabriela, except that they look very different at a comparable stage, even allowing for the great variability of Campanulaceae in leaf. If both do turn out to be C. alpina, perhaps some closer scrutiny of the species might be needed.

On the other hand it's more likely to be a seed list imposter of some sort. Please post an update when it flowers!

Gabriela

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Re: Campanula alpina variations
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2016, 05:57:24 PM »
Tristan,
I should have posted the image with younger seedlings from Carpathians, not the plant with mature foliage. See in the image; much more similar with the leaves showing the petioles.
I don't have the patience to wait next year - hope someone will post pictures showing the foliage, can't believe no one is growing Campanula alpina!!!

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Meanwhile, here is the image in question from AGS, might as well everyone enjoy it! Campanula alpina, flowering in Carpathian Mts., Bucegi Massif at 2300 m alt.

Gabriela
Ontario, zone 5
http://botanicallyinclined.org/

Philippe

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Re: Campanula alpina variations
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2016, 06:45:27 PM »
Hi Gabriela

I grow 2 sources of Campanula alpina. One is from garden origin, with no geographical information on seed provenance. The other one should come from the czech Carpatians.
However, both show shiny leaves without any visible hair.
Like Tristan wrote, I also find the plant in your fist picture to be something else than C.alpina.
Would I be you, I would look closer to another Carpatians endemic: Symphyandra wanneri, sometimes listed now as Campanula wanneri.
Both plants are unmistakable when adult and flowering, but who knows? I already gotten several times Rheum alexandrae seeds for what was supposed to be Rheum nobile ;)
NE-France,Haut-Chitelet alpine garden,1200 m.asl
Rather cool/wet summer,reliable 4/5 months winter snow cover
Annual precip:200/250cm,3.5C mean annual temp.

Hoy

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Re: Campanula alpina variations
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2016, 07:10:34 PM »
Can't help you here, Gabriel, but Campanula alpina looks very nice!
Trond Hoy, gardening on the rainy west coast of Norway.

Tristan_He

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Re: Campanula alpina variations
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2016, 08:10:34 PM »
I don't have the patience to wait next year - hope someone will post pictures showing the foliage, can't believe no one is growing Campanula alpina!!!

It's on my hit list Gabriela, hopefully from the seed exchange this year. There are so many nice Campanulas, it's hard to choose!

Gabriela

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Re: Campanula alpina variations
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2016, 11:21:48 PM »
Thank you all!
I feel that Philippe is right, but I guess we'll see next year for sure. I have 2 plants, at least one should survive till spring.

One more lesson not to make assumptions - I thought that by asking wild coll. seeds the chance to obtain the true species was highest than from garden cultivated.

I need to make a correction: after Diane inquired about the seedex nr. for this Campanula, I looked through the seedex list and the seeds were of garden origin, not wild coll.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 12:16:58 AM by Gabriela »
Gabriela
Ontario, zone 5
http://botanicallyinclined.org/

Philippe

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Re: Campanula alpina variations
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2016, 06:14:54 AM »
Thank you all!
I feel that Philippe is right, but I guess we'll see next year for sure. I have 2 plants, at least one should survive till spring.

One more lesson not to make assumptions - I thought that by asking wild coll. seeds the chance to obtain the true species was highest than from garden cultivated.

The chance you get 1 true species is almost 100% when collected in the wild ( apart from natural hybrids).
If the collector only takes care to identify the seeds and the plants he is collecting at least :)

It's no surprise to get misnamed species from the wild: flowers are often over, leaves maybe already more or less dry. Let's say it's easier to make a mistake than when collecting on a ( true) species you grow in a garden and of which you see all the season through all the caracteristic identification features.
On the other hands, with cultivated plants, many gardeners or even botanical gardens give seeds from what they think to be the true (cultivated) species, but which is sometimes completely misnamed, and even worse then, misnamed and hybridised ;)

Butwith this you finally have a true species collected in the wild, maybe with that Symphyandra, you'll tell us next year if it flowers.
NE-France,Haut-Chitelet alpine garden,1200 m.asl
Rather cool/wet summer,reliable 4/5 months winter snow cover
Annual precip:200/250cm,3.5C mean annual temp.

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Re: Campanula alpina variations
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2016, 08:16:55 AM »
Gabriela, you got me curious about the AGS using your photo on their website so went digging around on the site. It appears you entered the photo in the photographic competition in 2014 which, I'm guessing, means it is assumed you are prepared to have the photo used by the society. If you login as a member you can see a high quality version of the picture which identifies you as the photographer.

If you think the use unreasonable I would contact the AGS and discuss. I'm sure they don't want to be seen to be illicitly using your images.

It is a lovely picture

Martin

Gabriela

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Re: Campanula alpina variations
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2016, 04:38:37 PM »
The chance you get 1 true species is almost 100% when collected in the wild ( apart from natural hybrids).
If the collector only takes care to identify the seeds and the plants he is collecting at least :)

It's no surprise to get misnamed species from the wild: flowers are often over, leaves maybe already more or less dry. Let's say it's easier to make a mistake than when collecting on a ( true) species you grow in a garden and of which you see all the season through all the caracteristic identification features.
On the other hands, with cultivated plants, many gardeners or even botanical gardens give seeds from what they think to be the true (cultivated) species, but which is sometimes completely misnamed, and even worse then, misnamed and hybridised ;)
Butwith this you finally have a true species collected in the wild, maybe with that Symphyandra, you'll tell us next year if it flowers.

Yes Philippe, 'to err is human...' especially when collecting seeds in the wild, especially in a new location where you've never been.
And I've also seen misnamed plants even in 'Big' Botanical Gardens, from which seeds are collected and distributed probably.

That's fine, I will go collect my own seeds of Campanula alpina next year :)

Gabriela
Ontario, zone 5
http://botanicallyinclined.org/

Gabriela

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Re: Campanula alpina variations
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2016, 04:45:02 PM »
Gabriela, you got me curious about the AGS using your photo on their website so went digging around on the site. It appears you entered the photo in the photographic competition in 2014 which, I'm guessing, means it is assumed you are prepared to have the photo used by the society. If you login as a member you can see a high quality version of the picture which identifies you as the photographer.

If you think the use unreasonable I would contact the AGS and discuss. I'm sure they don't want to be seen to be illicitly using your images.
It is a lovely picture
Martin

Martin, I had no intention to start a discussion about something else than C. alpina. It was just an observation.
I don't remember reading such condition when sending my photos for the competition, they must be there for sure. I'm not an AGS member anymore so I cannot login to see details, neither can many other people.
As a principle, I don't think any pictures should be used without express permission from the photographer. So, my observation remains.

Gabriela
Ontario, zone 5
http://botanicallyinclined.org/

Great Moravian

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Re: Campanula alpina variations
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2017, 05:47:11 PM »
Campanula alpina is nearly always hairy. Flora R.P.R. claims
Frunze ... dispers lnos păroase, rareori glabrescente
Plants with totally glabrous leaves are a rarity.
In  the Alps
http://botany.cz/cs/campanula-alpina/
In Tatra mountains
http://spravatanap.sk/web/index.php/2012-08-24-09-58-43/flora-tatier-sk
In Bucegi mountains var. bucegiensis
http://www.carpati.org/poze_fotografii/bucegi/clopotei_de_munte_campanula_alpina_/92814/
http://www.biolib.cz/IMG/GAL/145862.jpg

Josef N.
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War, business and piracy are triune, not to separate
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Gabriela

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Re: Campanula alpina variations
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2017, 12:12:14 AM »
Campanula alpina is nearly always hairy. Flora R.P.R. claims
Frunze ... dispers lnos păroase, rareori glabrescente
Plants with totally glabrous leaves are a rarity.

Thank you Josef! I would be very happy to have a few volumes of Flora R.P.R.; there lots of good info there that cannot be found anywhere else. The specimens I coll. seeds few years ago were with glabrous leaves but I didn't look at all the populations very well.

I also found bucegiensis mentioned in an old plant determinant of Bucegi flora (Al. Beldie). He describes the smaller corolla (comparing with the type species) and the colour, which in some cases can be a 'dirty white', which is true, some were like that.
So indeed must be C. alpina var. bucegiensis Nyr.


« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 12:19:41 AM by Gabriela »
Gabriela
Ontario, zone 5
http://botanicallyinclined.org/

 


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