Autumn flowering Narcissus 2011

[Gerry Webster]

David - According to Jim Archibald N. jeanmonodii (of F.Casas) is a N. African plant which Maire called N. bulbocodium subsp nivalis.

By the way, Jim describes the plant as having upward-facing flowers with much exerted anthers. Your plant doesn't seem to look like this.

Edit: I can't find this in Rannveig's 2010 list. In her 2000 list she has it under Maire's name.

[Maggi Young]

The dyslexic BD tends to write the name of this narcissus as jeanmondii.... I'll get him trained one of these decades......

This name is one described by Fernando Casas and is basically a  geographic variation of nivalis, I think.

Ours (under the name  jenamonodii) are always upward facing.... think Star-gazy pie!

Have a look at the comments in Bulb Log 11/11 page....http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6922.0   and in that log itself: http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2011Mar161300283163BULB_LOG__1111.pdf

[David Nicholson]

Thanks Gerry and Maggi.

I was wrong, I got mine from Brian Duncan, (BD not BT-handwriting problem again!) think I'll drop him a line and get his view. Will report back.

Mine doesn't look like Ian's in Log 11 15 March 2011, and mine, on that basis, is very early! Maybe it does look more like Anne's jeanmondoii

[Maggi Young]

Gerd Knoche is sharing with us  details of a method to use to gain better flowering from Autumn flowering narcissus.... I have given this its own thread :
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8183.0    

[annew]

Maybe it does look more like Anne's bulbocodium ssp nivalis

What what what???

[David Nicholson]

Maybe it does look more like Anne's bulbocodium ssp nivalis

What what what???

Sorry Anne, getting myself confused (not difficult to do) what I was trying to say was that my jeanmonodii(?) didn't look like Ian's but there were similarities between mine and yours. I've edited my previous post.

[Rafa]

I think it is N. bulbocodium L. subsp. nivalis Graells, or var. nivalis (Graells) Baker. In Flora Iberica is only supported N. bulbocodium L.
In my oppinion it is of course N. nivalis Graells, a plant that only grows from Gredos to Guadarrama Mt. Ranges and North Portugal.

Quite off topic, but anybody has any information about Narcissus jonquilla L. f. stenantha? could anybody send me the e-mail of Mr. Fritz Kummert

[JPB]

I think it is N. bulbocodium L. subsp. nivalis Graells, or var. nivalis (Graells) Baker. In Flora Iberica is only supported N. bulbocodium L.
In my oppinion it is of course N. nivalis Graells, a plant that only grows from Gredos to Guadarrama Mt. Ranges and North Portugal.

Rafa, I have some small N. bulbocodium ssp. nivalis plants from seed collected in the Cantabrian Mountains at 1900m (Pavelka). The geographic range you describe for this subspecies is much more south... Can you please comment on it?

Hans

[Anthony Darby]

To be fair on NZ MAF: if a seed has a new name, but can be traced back to an old name of an allowed species it is OK, and if they don't find the connection they will accept it if you can prove its pedigree. I have trouble getting my head round things like finding "Alstroemeria yellow" is on the allowed list but "Alstroemeria patagonica", which has yellow flowers, isn't!

[Rafa]

To be fair on NZ MAF: if a seed has a new name, but can be traced back to an old name of an allowed species it is OK, and if they don't find the connection they will accept it if you can prove its pedigree. I have trouble getting my head round things like finding "Alstroemeria yellow" is on the allowed list but "Alstroemeria patagonica", which has yellow flowers, isn't!

All this MAF names are absurd, they don't even know what are they talking about...

[Rafa]

Hans, the plants you motioned are not N. bulbocodium subsp. nivalis, the geographical distribution of it is very little in Central Spain and North Portugal. This is a plant that I know very very well because I live in one of the places with more localities Guadarrama Mountain Range. It's a very variable species.
The plant you mentioned grows  in all the north of Spain from Galicia to French Landes (also in Burgos) It has named with many names: ej.
Narcissus juressianus, Narcissus turgidus, subsp. lainzi, subsp. validus... all are the same plant, but the name is another case. I doubt between supporting  subsp. validus and N. turgidus.
I am lately against consider many subsp. of N. bulbocodium and considered them as valid species thinking also in their geographical distribution. For example I supporting Narcissus nivalis Graells, before Narcissus bulbocodium L. as they are very different plants to me and also concerning their hybridisation relation with other Narcissi.

[annew]

What we need is a nice new monograph...

[JPB]

Thanks Rafa! It shows that geographic information can be very important to assess whether a species indeed is what it was labeled, even without flowers present... Provided that the collection locality is correct. But that is much easier than the taxonomy of Narcissus

And Anne is right...we all desperately wait for a new monograph

[Gerry Webster]

What we need is a nice new monograph...

We do indeed, but how likely is that? I am not holding my breath.

[Rafa]

Hans, in my oppinion,  I considered in Narcissus it is very important the geographical distribution because it has had evolutive consecuences, it is having and it will have consecuences.
An example of my observations in the nature about it: N. bulbocoidium L. it's a plant that grows in Toledo, Ciudad Real, Extremadura.. in the places where it is growing with N. jonquilla, N. cantabricus, N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus... When the blooming time between N. bulbocodium L. and N. cantabricus it's the same (due the environmental conditions), they produce hybrids in both directions and the procces of speciation starts, evolving to N. albicans. The opposite case in the same crosses between N. nivalis and N. cantabricus, here there is only one direction in this hybrid, and they won't evolve to another species. So, if we consider this as a valid process (not proove, just my theory) we could see that N. albicans has a geographical distribution similar to N. cantabricus and N. bulbocodium L. but  you never will find N. albicans version in a N. nivalis distribution.

Imagine N. x alleniae would be an species, the logical distribution will be Cádiz/North Morocco, where the parent lived in other time. Well this is the same, if we think in the rest of species, the problem is that we can't know the distribution of the ancient parents.

Please, don't think this is a valid theory scientificly prooved, it is just my theory.