We hope you have enjoyed the SRGC Forum. You can make a Paypal donation to the SRGC by clicking the above button

Author Topic: Species Narcissus?  (Read 2723 times)

Phill

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Species Narcissus?
« on: October 10, 2010, 08:29:55 AM »
Hello, as an sporadic purchaser of Narcissus from run of the mill retail outlets, I was puzzled to find many packages of what purported to be "Species narcissus" (Taylor's Bulbs). The vast majority of these were what I had been led to believe were hybrids. Am I mistaken?, are they "selections" of species? one of them was Tete-a-Tete. I am confused.

David Nicholson

  • Hawkeye
  • Journal Access Group
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 13117
  • Country: england
  • Why can't I play like Clapton
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2010, 09:49:18 AM »
Hi Phil, I think Taylors are applying a "marketing" definition to the word "species" :P

Tete-a-Tete was bred by Alec Grey in 1949, the seed parent being 'Cyclatz' and open pollinated pollen. You can check out details of most hybrids here, including full genetic histories.

http://daffseek.org/query/query.php
David Nicholson
in Devon, UK  Zone 9b
"Victims of satire who are overly defensive, who cry "foul" or just winge to high heaven, might take pause and consider what exactly it is that leaves them so sensitive, when they were happy with satire when they were on the side dishing it out"

Maggi Young

  • Forum Dogsbody
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43973
  • Country: scotland
  • "There's often a clue"
    • International Rock Gardener e-magazine
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2010, 11:14:58 AM »
Hello Phill, good to have you join us.  :)

 It is common to find commercially offered bulb packets , of all sorts of genera, Tulips, Crocus, Narcissus etc, labelled as "species.....".... as David  says, this is a tool used  by the sellers to designate plants which are , in general, miniature types....  to distinguish them from the "average" garden centre types of such  bulbs which tend to be the taller, garden or "florists'" varieties. Thus if a packet is labelled "species", it may well be a hybrid or a selected form of a species but the point being made by the seller is that these are diminutive sorts, closer to the "natural" species from which they are derived.

 Witness the bags of "Dutch" crocus.... these are the large flowered, taller hybrids and "Species" crocus, which are chrysanthus and biflorus hybrids of smaller stature.

Hope this helps? 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 11:32:37 AM by Maggi Young »
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

Editor: International Rock Gardener e-magazine

JPB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
    • My plants
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2010, 09:41:30 PM »
So the "species-concept" is finally defined, thanks to the marketing skills of the Professors of Commercial Botany: Small plants are species, while large ones are not! ;D
NE part of The Netherlands. Hardiness zone 7/8

Maggi Young

  • Forum Dogsbody
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43973
  • Country: scotland
  • "There's often a clue"
    • International Rock Gardener e-magazine
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2010, 10:32:47 PM »
Yes, priceless, isn't it? Think of all the time and effort that could have been saved educating all those botanists!  ;D
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 11:32:57 AM by Maggi Young »
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

Editor: International Rock Gardener e-magazine

Anthony Darby

  • Bug Buff & Punster
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9647
  • Country: nz
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2010, 11:08:22 PM »
What annoys me is being sold a dozen "species" cyclamineus and ending up with a potful of 'Tête à tête' not worth the postage far less the purchase price. >:(
Anthony Darby, Auckland, New Zealand.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
http://www.dunblanecathedral.org.uk/Choir/The-Choir.html

Gerry Webster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2571
  • Country: gb
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2010, 09:30:16 AM »
So the "species-concept" is finally defined, thanks to the marketing skills of the Professors of Commercial Botany: Small plants are species, while large ones are not! ;D

Well, not much worse than other species concepts which have been proposed - though I suppose there is scope for discussion on what might be understood by "small" & "large".

Does anyone else remember " botanical tulips"? So called to distinguish them from the zoological kind I suppose.
Gerry passed away  at home  on 25th February 2021 - his posts are  left  in the  forum in memory of him.
His was a long life - lived well.

JPB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
    • My plants
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2010, 07:21:23 PM »
"A species is a species if a competent taxonomist defines it as a species"  :-\ How about that one?! There's more truth in it than one might think at first sight  ;D
NE part of The Netherlands. Hardiness zone 7/8

Paul T

  • Our man in Canberra
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8435
  • Country: au
  • Paul T.
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2010, 02:00:34 AM »
Hans,

Now we need the definition of "competent botanist"?  ;D  Competent in whose eyes? ???

 ;)
Cheers.

Paul T.
Canberra, Australia.
Min winter temp -8 or -9°C. Max summer temp 40°C. Thankfully, maybe once or twice a year only.

Anthony Darby

  • Bug Buff & Punster
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9647
  • Country: nz
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2010, 09:06:50 AM »
Hans,

Now we need the definition of "competent botanist"?  ;D  Competent in whose eyes? ???

 ;)
Gene Pool?
Anthony Darby, Auckland, New Zealand.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
http://www.dunblanecathedral.org.uk/Choir/The-Choir.html

Gerry Webster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2571
  • Country: gb
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2010, 09:56:19 AM »
Cary O'Type can sometimes be relied on.
Gerry passed away  at home  on 25th February 2021 - his posts are  left  in the  forum in memory of him.
His was a long life - lived well.

Anthony Darby

  • Bug Buff & Punster
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9647
  • Country: nz
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2010, 12:57:13 PM »
Not sure if Phil O'Geny can?
Anthony Darby, Auckland, New Zealand.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
http://www.dunblanecathedral.org.uk/Choir/The-Choir.html

Gerry Webster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2571
  • Country: gb
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2010, 02:47:38 PM »
Totally unreliable - he depends too much on the theories of Eve O' Lution.
Gerry passed away  at home  on 25th February 2021 - his posts are  left  in the  forum in memory of him.
His was a long life - lived well.

JPB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
    • My plants
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2010, 07:15:39 PM »
Phil O'Geneti and his wife Cally are worth considering  ;D
NE part of The Netherlands. Hardiness zone 7/8

JPB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
    • My plants
Re: Species Narcissus?
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2010, 07:49:58 PM »
"A species is a species if a competent taxonomist defines it as a species"  :-\ How about that one?! There's more truth in it than one might think at first sight  ;D

Of course this will elicit jokes, but is was seriously brought in by my professor during an international meeting on the species concept years ago. We PhD students all laughed, but getting older and wiser I found that it was not that bad a definition at all. It is harder to define a species that it is to find a competent taxonomist....Hmmm, I smell Popper, Kuhn and Lakatos ;D
NE part of The Netherlands. Hardiness zone 7/8

 


Scottish Rock Garden Club is a Charity registered with Scottish Charity Regulator (OSCR): SC000942
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal