Allium 2010

[Stephenb]

Re-zebdanense: My experience is the same as yours Mark. My zebdanense is either sterile or closely so. A few months back I wrote a short (Norwegian) article about this one as it’s an excellent well behaved Allium. It’s also hardy. However, it's somewhat surprising that a plant from Lebanon and Syria should prove hardy in Northern Norway, although there are quite high mountains in those countries.  I saw it in several gardens there in flower in early June last year (it flowers in mid-May in my “southern” garden). This has made me wonder if it really is this species or perhaps a hybrid (mine is also sterile or almost so – don’t remember seeing a seed on it). I’ve had it for over 10 years in the open garden and it’s also naturalized in a wild bit of the garden and grows well with ground elder as you can see in the picture (no idea how it got there, but I might have planted it). The flowers are also a nice addition to a spring salad if you like that kind of thing (not many other flowers around at that time).

[TheOnionMan]

Yes, I know that there are two varieties of Allium paradoxum.   

Hi Janis, yes I suspected you would know perfectly well about paradoxum and variety normale... I offered up the explanatory information about the two forms for readers of this forum who might not know about the differences   

Allium zebdanense I'm growing on nursery beds in full sun, but it split enormously and it is impossible to harvest all small bulbils. Fortunately it makes leaves in autumn and spraying with roundup helps to clean soil from this nice weed.

In my plants, the foliage never respouts in autumn!  For me, A. zebdanense only reappears in early spring.  This makes me wonder if there is indeed another clone out there, corresponding to the different disjunct races of this species, as reported by Davis in Flora of Turkey.  There are a number of species that do resprout in the autumn, and have evergreen foliage all winter here.... such as A. flavum and  A. parciflorum, but never with A. zebdanense.  This is a very interesting difference.  Stephen, how about with your plants?

Janis, your photos of A. paradoxum var. normale are wonderful, thanks for sharing!  In the form you show, the flowers are plump and rotund yet slightly urceolate, rather elegant and beautiful, looking like Leucojum blooms, prettier than the form I've grown which had simple campanulate flowers without that nice recurved flare.  My plants haven't flowered the last two years, can't say for sure it's even alive anymore.  And I learn from you the problem, I had it planted in full sun, when it should be in shade.  I do hope you offer seed or bulbs of this in the future, I would dearly love to get it "naturalized" in some shadier parts of my garden.

[TheOnionMan]

Side by side is Allium oreophilum cv. 'Agaliks Giant' selected by me from wild material collected during my second mountain trip to Central Asia at heights of Agalik river not far from Samarkand. It is tallest of oreophilums grown by me and planted side by side with 'Jeannine' makes very nice border. Picture is very old, for very long my stocks of both cultivars are very small, but I still well remember how beautiful they both were stayin in same bed side by side.
Janis 

One of my favorite forms of Allium oreophilum is one named A. oreophilum 'Torch', much better than the commonly available form.  I got mine from Pacific Rim Nursery at http://www.hillkeep.ca/bulbs%20allium%20i-z.htm
The nursery description says "Native to Central Asia, it was selected for its straight stalk by Antoine Hoog from the Jánis Rukšáns selection A. oreophilum 'Agalik'. This straight-stemmed version charms all who see it.  It is beautiful both in the rock garden and as a dinner-party centrepiece ."  You have collected many forms of this species, what can you tell us about 'Torch', is the information in the nursery description accurate?  In your book, I really like the dwarf selections you've made, such as 'Kursavli Curl'.

I uploaded two photos of A. oreophilum 'Torch' growing in my garden.  I find this selection to be strong, but slow growing, with fleshy, waxy blue-gray foliage, and intensely colored heads of bloom.  I've been scratching the seed into the soil around the parent plant, and lots of seedlings are coming up, no worries about hybrids as it is the only form I grow currently.

Thanks for sharing your photos and description of the Kara-Tau mountains.

[Sinchets]

Given that 2 people have A.zebdanense, which rarely sets seed maybe this explains why my plants grow from seed weren't true 

[Stephenb]

In my plants, the foliage never respouts in autumn!  For me, A. zebdanense only reappears in early spring.  This makes me wonder if there is indeed another clone out there, corresponding to the different disjunct races of this species, as reported by Davis in Flora of Turkey.  There are a number of species that do resprout in the autumn, and have evergreen foliage all winter here.... such as A. flavum and  A. parciflorum, but never with A. zebdanense.  This is a very interesting difference.  Stephen, how about with your plants?

Can't remember for certain - have to get back to you in the spring. My zebdanense is growing with A. scorodoprasum jajlae. One of the two or both resprout - scorodoprasum definitely does; I think zebdanense reappears in spring like yours.

[Janis Ruksans]

I just read in entry under Iris topic, that my book Buried Treasures are used as reference for correct names. Unfortunately not allways it is true. As most of claims are presented to few Alliums I deceided to put part of my Iris entry in Allium topic, too.

Just got mail from great Allium specialist Reinhardt Fritsch that few Iranian Alliums in my book are incorrectly identified. I'm not great in Allium taxonomy and followed the names under which I got those plants from another great specialist in Alliums - Arnis Seisums. I completely trusted to his identification and didn't checked his opinion. Really there are very little information about Iranian Alliums and just recently a lot of new species were described and this summer I will have great job checking my stocks of Iranian Alliums to put them under correct names. Unfortunately the last complete revue of Alliums in this district is Wendelbo's treatment in Flora Iranica, now much out of date. Sorry, but each book can show only situation of knowledge at the date when book is going to printer. At present so many researches are maid using modern technologies. From other side - each botanist think that just his opinion is the best and correct. I was something shocked when recently hear that my plants are used as standard for naming. Of course, I'm never intentionally sending wrongly named plants instead of true, but labels can show only my opinion (knowledge) at current moment.
Janis

[TheOnionMan]

I just read in entry under Iris topic, that my book Buried Treasures are used as reference for correct names. Unfortunately not allways it is true. As most of claims are presented to few Alliums I deceided to put part of my Iris entry in Allium topic, too.

Janis, don't be too hard on yourself.  Over the years I've been frustrated with plant books, particularly bulb books, that pay "short shrift" to the genus Allium, one of the largest and most ornamental of bulbous genera, yet there is always more focus on the "popular" genera such as Crocus, Corydalis, Fritillaria, Iris, Tulipa, etc.  An example is the indispensible book The Caucasus and its Flowers; would have liked to see much more than just two Allium species featured! 

So, it was a great pleasure after acquiring your astounding book Buried Treasures to see, at long last, a well deserved emphasis on highly ornamental Allium species!  With your catalogs, your book, and marvelously illustrated PowerPoint slide presentation on Allium, have done more to educate and promote the ornamental value of innumerable species of Allium more than anyone I can think off in the last two decades.

Regarding misidentifications, Allium taxonomy it is a difficult area.  In just two of Dr. Reinhard Fritsch's recent publications, more than 20 new species are described.  So, one would need Wendelbo's treatment in Flora Iranica as you mention, but then also need dozens of separately published scientific papers and treatments appearing over a span of 40 years or more, then start putting pieces of the puzzle together, to begin to get a sense of what Allium species exist in one country like Iran, let alone neighboring countries like Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, etc.  Dr. Fritsch did mention that there is an effort underway to revamp a new revised treatment of the genus Allium in Iran, for some time in 2012 or 2013.

I asked Dr. Fritsch to look at photos of two allium species identified and given to me by Arnis Seisums; Allium altissimum (Turkmenistan, E Kopet-Dag, nr. village Manish) and Allium chelotum (Iran, Elburs mts, Kuh-e Abr, very old P. Wendelbo' s collection).  Dr. Fritsch confirmed A. chelotum, although said what I was growing as A. altissimum was most likely Allium stipitatum.  For a "stipitatum' it sure grows tall, reaching nearly 2 meters in its better years.  So now I'm not sure what to think, other than it is not altissimum. So, this task of getting absolutely correct identifications is not easy, even using information from the formost experts in the field.

So, please continue your great work and enthusiasm for the genus Allium, updating a few IDs is just part of the process as information becomes known.

As a follow up to this message, I will post some photos of both of these.

[TheOnionMan]

To follow-up, here are photos of Allium chelotum from Iran, grows to little over 1 meter, attractive ball of pink flowers.  Dr. Fritsch gave an "ok" on this one.  Growing right next to it are the shooting buds of what I had received as Allium altissimum, which Dr. Fritsch suggests looks more like Allium stipitatum.  It is a giant plant, growing to 6' (2 meters) and is the tallest species I've ever grown.  I like how the buds and stems are phototropic, following the sun around, which typically ends up in comical bends and twists at the top of the stems.

I bet you StephenB would want to make a salad out of those succulent Allium aff. stipitatum leaves seen in photo #3.
-- Message modified to show identification of the tall purple Allium as A. stipitatum, not A. altissimum. Renamed photos too --

[Oron Peri]

Allium neapolitanum starts to flower now, it is a real pest but an excellent cut flower.

[Stephenb]

I bet you StephenB would want to make a salad out of those succulent Allium aff. stipitatum leaves seen in photo #3.

Thanks for the invite - typical, invited to dinner and end up as cook....   I've never partaken of Stipitatum as I've never succeeded with it and never been invited to dinner by someone with it either before now, but it is a traditional wild sourced edible over its range (Afghanistan Iran etc.) - the bulbs are sold on markets....

Nice pictures, but getting confused with all these Allium NOT aff. stipitatum NOT chelotum perhaps stipitatum after all pictures...

[TheOnionMan]

Thanks for the invite - typical, invited to dinner and end up as cook....   I've never partaken of Stipitatum as I've never succeeded with it and never been invited to dinner by someone with it either before now, but it is a traditional wild sourced edible over its range (Afghanistan Iran etc.) - the bulbs are sold on markets....

Nice pictures, but getting confused with all these Allium NOT aff. stipitatum NOT chelotum perhaps stipitatum after all pictures...

Confusion removed... edited the message to reflect the ID from Dr. Fritsch that my plant is A. altissimum, re-uploaded renamed images as well.  And to be clear, the A. chelotum was not in question, it has been verified by Dr. Fritsch.  Stephen, it you can make it here in May when the stipitatum foliage is still fresh and lush, you're most welcome to come for dinner (although I wouldn't know how to prepare the alliums, you still might need to do some cooking for us ).

[fermi de Sousa]

Flowering now in Central Vic. is Allium saxatile.


We aren't allowed to import this one into Australia because of its weed potential but it was already in the country when I bought it from a bulb seller!
cheers
fermi

[olegKon]

Mark, thanks for sharing with us your knowledge and pictures of alliums.
This is what I found in a book published by Moscow agricultural academy about A.stipitatum & altissimum. Hope it will help.
"Bulbs of A.stipitatum are flattish round with a less prominent "nose" than that of A.aflatunense,100-200 gramms, yellow or dark yellow. The tunic is greyish white.The bulbs are divided into 2 or more parts unequal in size as a rule. The bulb forms 2-3 bulblets 0.8-2.0 centimeters in diameter joint to the mother bulb by stolons of different length.
Adult bulbs of A.altissimum are divided into 3-4 parts of an uneven shape and form a lot of bulblets thus A.altissimum grows in groups in nature. Weight of a separate bulb is 25-40 gramms. The top of the bulb is without a "nose".The bulbils seeking space can be at the upper part of the mother bulb. The bulbs are from light to dark yellow. .... A.altissimum has the narrowest and longest leaves in the group."

[TheOnionMan]

Thanks Oleg.  My bulbs are overdue for digging and dividing.  The reason I never questioned the ID on my plants, is getting it from a well known bulb expert, and secondly, I've seen photos of A. stipitatum where it is a 3' (1 meter) plant but never have I seen 6' (2 meters) plants as mine grow.  The bulb split a few years ago into about 5 bulbs, and now they don't grow as tall, only about 4.5 - 5 feet, so they are due to be dug up and replanted.  When I do this, I shall observe and photograph the bulbs, for further ID diagnosis.

[TheOnionMan]

Flowering now in Central Vic. is Allium saxatile.
We aren't allowed to import this one into Australia because of its weed potential but it was already in the country when I bought it from a bulb seller!

It's a pleasant species, and even though it makes lots of seed, doesn't seed around too much and is well behaved in my garden.  I like the light pink color form best (similar to yours), although I also have a dark pink form and a near-white form. I once had a light yellow form (aka syn. marshallianum) that was dwarf too, but lost it.  In your photo, it it growing among a grass or sedge species, and a dianthus?