Starting Dactylohiza from seed

[Paul T]

Chris,

Did you use the same "innoculation" method for your cardboard germinations?  I'm wondering if some of my potting mix from my Spiranthes for example or some soil from around my Dact elata would do the job?

Mark,

When you sowed the seed, where did you sow it?  Onto the surface of the cardboard, did you have multiple pieces piled onto each other?  Juice from a wormfarm OK instead of the compost heap?  The problem I have is the pieces of root from target orchid species.  I don't have many Dacts etc, hence the reason for wanting to grow from seed in the first place.

[Hristo]

Paul,
You only need a section of one live root  from your Dactylorhiza, dissect it up and place sections throughout your cardboard matrix.
Yes, why not use some soil from around your existing orchids, I would mix it up, let it settle so any weed seeds drop out of suspension and use the fluid to soak your cardboard. Apply as many 'methods' to one trial as you can to increase your chances of success, in the end I guess you want plants not a series of control experiments!
I allowed my tubs to sit for a month beofre I sowed any seed into them, I hoped this would allow any fungi to esablish and spread into the matrix. Seed sown onto the surface of the matrix, the cardbaord is placed with the open end of the corrugations oriented vertically.
Attached pics from a new sowing onto a matrix innoculated with the B1 fungus, this has been seeded with two different species.

[Paul T]

Wow!  Very, very cool.  So you keep them covered from light, or is that red blanket just sitting on top of the stack?  I have got to try this at some point I think. 

[mark smyth]

Paul I copied the info from the orchid web site   but I'm very interested in the cardboard method

[Hristo]

Paul,
The blanket is there to block out the light. Again literature ( and experience ) indicates that high light levels can adversely effect germination. I guess logically orchid seed does not germinate at the soil surface in nature.

Mark,
This is the link, which was from my posting on the Terrestrial Orchid Forum
http://forum.terrorchid.org/viewtopic.php?p=8319#8319

[mark smyth]

Questions, questions ...

Can this be done at anytime of year?

How long does everything stay in the boxes?

Do you put them outside?

When you can see tiny tubers do you plant them?

How long to flowering?

[Paul T]

Yeah, what he said!! 

Inquiring minds want to know. 

[Tony Willis]

Howdy All,

Did this inspire anyone to try from seed since this topic was last posted in?  If so, how have the results been?  Tony, your Ophrys lutea still seeding around in the glasshouse?  Details everyone, details!!  

Paul at least two are growing but it is the middle of winter (-5c last night) so they are not flowering yet although I do have two other Ophrys lutea in flower

I think I will give the cardboard method a try when I get seed of varoius species later in the year although the dactylorhiza self seed in the garden anyway.

[Paul T]

Glad to hear it Tony.  I've only ever seen one Ophrys in person, down at Otto's.  They're beauties, and some of the species that have appeared in this forum are .

I think I have to put in a quick note to anyone who might have spare seed of any of these terrestrial orchid types we're mentioning in the coming season (or next season, or the season after!)...... there would be a welcome home for them here, particularly now that I have some fun experimenting to do.    I can't guarantee that they'll germinate and grow happily here, but I'd like to give them a darn good try.  

Oh and Tony, I'm jealous to a degree of your -5.  Could we split the difference between us, we're forecast 35, 37, 37, 34, 33, 35 and 33^oC for the next week.  Averaging that out there'd be some nice mid teens in the temps which would be absolutely glorious right now, although the plants would get VERY confused.    Our lowest night temp forecast, other than tonight which is a little cooler, is 19^oC.  Not looking forward to this week.  Yukko!

[Hristo]

Questions, questions ...

Can this be done at anytime of year?

How long does everything stay in the boxes?

Do you put them outside?

When you can see tiny tubers do you plant them?

How long to flowering?

I'd suggest a summer or autumn sowing would be best, seed as fresh as possible.

Transplant once the seedlings are a good size, I will cut mine out of the matrix and
plant in the open garden in early spring if ready, to allow them to establish before the
summer bake.

I left all my cartons in the barn until they had been frosted to around -5c for several nights.
After this I moved them indoors into an unheated room +3 to +9c

I guess you could try planting out the protocorms on the matrix but this may adversely effect
conditions for the fungus which will result in the death of the protocorm. Wait till your orchid
can photsynthesise and then plant out would be my approach.

In the UK I had Dactylorhizas flowering in their second year, more normally their third year.
Orchis and Ophrys species maybe 4 plus years to flowering.

I've included a more recent photo of the Spiranthes, since I last posted a pic in
Germinating Now? 2011 you can see the pace of development. Second picture
shows the wealth of protocorms developing, these are only visible when I photograph the
matrix.
If has been my understanding and experience that orchids grown symbiotically develop with a
greater degree of vigour than those grown asymbiotically.

[mark smyth]

W W look at those Spiranthes babies

[winwen]

Hristo,

your method of growing orchids symbiotically looks very interesting - nevertheless: at least for subcultering the symbiotic fungus, you need to work under sterile conditions. Although contaminations will not obviously show first, the fungus seems to get weaker and weaker and gradually loose it's symbiotic potential. I have been working with the B1 for at least 3 years now and it really seems to be a genetically very stable and potent fungus - if it's culture is beeing kept clean!
It would also be interesting to follow the ideas of Dr. Heinrich Beyrle, who suggested to create fungus-spawn and mix it up with standard-substrates in order to subsequently sow seeds or grow seedlings on these substrates.

Just two questions on your method, Hristo:
1.) Could you please write something about the trays you are using (origin, dimensions)?
2.) What is the liquid made up, you are using to soak the cardboards?

[Hristo]

Hi Winwen,
Yes subculturing would require sterile conditions to isolate the symbiant. My intention, should this system yield viable plants, is to restart the process each season. The whole 'experiment' is interested in avoiding the need for sterility or the need to grow symbiotically in the exclusive presence of the symbiant fungus. That there will be 'contamination' there is no doubt, my interest is to see how the developing protocorms / plants fare in the face of that contamination, afterall, orchids manage to reproduce in the 'wild' in the face of massive contamination.
2011 Protocorm development so far for the following species;
D.sambucina,D.romana,D.saccifera,P.laxiflora ssp. elegans, O.laxiflora, G.conopsea, O.militaris, S.romanzoffiana
The Spiranthes were sown in May 2010 and the other species in October 2010

The cartons are 18cmx12cmx7cm with sealable lids
The liquid was made by soaking material from my compost heap and soil from my meadow in rain water, soaked for 24 hrs and strained off.
Cardboard strips are 2cm high.

[mark smyth]

and a last question from me because tomorrow I'm going to a beech wood. How much decayed wood do I need. I dont want to be awkward but go you tell us the the whole process like a recipe. How wet is the card? what do I do with the lignin ...

1. fast food container
2. sterilise it
3. cut strips of card
4.
5.

[Hristo]

Mark,
Not much, but you want to look for dacaying wood at the horizon between the 'mould' layer and the 'soil' proper. Look for chunks with visibly active fungal growth. I took these and shaved them down into small pieces which I scatterd over the cardboard matrix. Remember your 'Juice' is a 24 hr marinade of compost heap material and soil, strained and settled.
Your cardboard should fit snuggly into the container, the container should have a sealable lid.
Soak the cardboard in the juice, stand and pour off the excess after an hour or so.
Add  your Beech / fungus chips.
Allow to sit for at least 1 month before sowing.
I have about 8 successful sowings out of a total of 30 this year , so you need to think big, if you only sow one tub your chances of success are somewhat reduced!