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Author Topic: Iris 'Katharine Hodgkin'- query  (Read 7722 times)

Paul T

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Re: Iris 'Katharine Hodgkin'- query
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2009, 09:02:02 AM »
Otto,

Ouch!!  Not good.  I guess I should be happy that mine at least still survives.  ;D  Iris winowgradowii is thankfully doing OK, has increased a little and this year should hopefully be big enough to flower again I hope.  These little retic types are just so special. 8)
Cheers.

Paul T.
Canberra, Australia.
Min winter temp -8 or -9°C. Max summer temp 40°C. Thankfully, maybe once or twice a year only.

Ragged Robin

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Re: Iris 'Katharine Hodgkin'- query
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2009, 04:04:32 PM »
I rather think "she" might, Robin. I'll make a note to lift one for you . :D

I would be thrilled to have one from you Maggi; a plant that is given is extra special as you watch it grow and I think I have the perfect spot for 'her' ;D 8)
Valais, Switzerland - 1,200 metres - Continental climate - rocks and moraine

gote

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Re: Iris 'Katharine Hodgkin'- query
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2009, 01:40:00 PM »
Paul , from a single bulb I built up a thriving colony of over 200 flowering sized ones in a matter of about 5 years - a beautyful sight - and then the next year not a single surviver , the dreaded ink decease , only empty shells .
 The first time I saw I. 'Katharine Hodgkin' in flower was in 1961 in E.B. Anderson's
 garden in Lower Slaughter ,under a Plum Tree. I remember E.B.A. telling me ,that it was the second year to flower , and that he used I danfordiae as one parent , but it has been established in the meantime that it was I winogradowii .
I am afraid I cannot grow them outside but I can buy them in pots in the garden center as if they were pansies.

The common wisdom is that EBA said that he used danfordie and Otto has it "from the horse's mouth". I wonder: What makes it certain that he used winogradowii?? EBA was no ignoraminus. Is there a DNA-sequensing that supports it? The fact that danfordie has minuscule standards is not necessarily a proof. That could be a recessive gene - considering the rarity of "danfordie-standards" that seems likey.

Göte 
Göte Svanholm
Mid-Sweden

Paul T

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Re: Iris 'Katharine Hodgkin'- query
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2009, 05:56:23 AM »
I am afraid I cannot grow them outside but I can buy them in pots in the garden center as if they were pansies.

Gote,

Can you hear me here, sobbing!  :'( :'(  If only!  ::)
Cheers.

Paul T.
Canberra, Australia.
Min winter temp -8 or -9°C. Max summer temp 40°C. Thankfully, maybe once or twice a year only.

gote

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Re: Iris 'Katharine Hodgkin'- query
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2009, 08:54:00 AM »
You are too far from Holland Paul. You have my sympathy.
Göte
Göte Svanholm
Mid-Sweden

Paul T

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Re: Iris 'Katharine Hodgkin'- query
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2009, 12:33:18 PM »
Yes, I am a LONG way from Holland!!  A quarantine world away in fact. ;D  I'm sure I'll live.  If they were available in every garden centre then they wouldn't nearly as special, but then again I would be far more likely to see them in flower in person instead of struggling along like in my garden.  ::)  So it is SOOOOOO nice to see the pics up here to remind me of what mine will look like if I ever get her to flowering size again. 8)
Cheers.

Paul T.
Canberra, Australia.
Min winter temp -8 or -9°C. Max summer temp 40°C. Thankfully, maybe once or twice a year only.

Gerry Webster

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Re: Iris 'Katharine Hodgkin'- query
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2009, 04:55:30 PM »
Paul , from a single bulb I built up a thriving colony of over 200 flowering sized ones in a matter of about 5 years - a beautyful sight - and then the next year not a single surviver , the dreaded ink decease , only empty shells .
 The first time I saw I. 'Katharine Hodgkin' in flower was in 1961 in E.B. Anderson's
 garden in Lower Slaughter ,under a Plum Tree. I remember E.B.A. telling me ,that it was the second year to flower , and that he used I danfordiae as one parent , but it has been established in the meantime that it was I winogradowii .
I am afraid I cannot grow them outside but I can buy them in pots in the garden center as if they were pansies.

The common wisdom is that EBA said that he used danfordie and Otto has it "from the horse's mouth". I wonder: What makes it certain that he used winogradowii?? EBA was no ignoraminus. Is there a DNA-sequensing that supports it? The fact that danfordie has minuscule standards is not necessarily a proof. That could be a recessive gene - considering the rarity of "danfordie-standards" that seems likey.

Göte 
I have just rediscovered an article in ‘The Garden’ (vol. 115, pt.9, Sept 1990) on the identity of Iris ‘Katharine Hodgkin’ by Brian Mathew & Margaret Johnson in which they establish beyond reasonable doubt that the parents of this hybrid are I. histrioides ‘Major’ & I. winogradowii & not, as E.B. Anderson claimed, I. histrioides ‘Major’ & I. danfordiae.  Their argument is based on a combination of morphological & cytological evidence  & a comparison with the  similar hybrid I. ‘Frank Elder’  whose parentage is known to be I. histrioides ‘Major’ x I. winogradowii.

I. histrioides ‘Major, I. winogradowii, I. ‘Katharine Hodgkin’ & I. ‘Frank Elder’  all have chromosome numbers of 2n = 16.  The commonly grown clone of I. danfordiae has a chromosome number of  27 which suggests that it is a triploid. It is apparently almost sterile.  Mathew & Johnson speculate that EBA hand pollinated I. histrioides ‘Major’ from the virtually sterile I. danfordiae but that the plant was subsequently pollinated from I. winogradowii  by an insect. It was this second act of pollination which produced two seeds one of which produced the bulb from which all plants of I. ‘Katharine Hodgkin’ are descended.
Gerry passed away  at home  on 25th February 2021 - his posts are  left  in the  forum in memory of him.
His was a long life - lived well.

Regelian

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Re: Iris 'Katharine Hodgkin'- query
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2009, 06:44:41 PM »
Gerry,

I have often doubted the logic behind it not being danfordiae.  There is a diploid danfordiae and quite a few hybridizers are working with it.  The typicall propogated clone is a triploid and largely unfertil, but actual seed-grown plants are diploid.  Having seed the various patterns from this group of Iris on the reticulata page, I see no reason to disprove the purposed cross, short of a chromosome analysis.

I suppose it is all rather here nor there, as I will always be fascinated by such a colour combination, which are becoming more and more prevalent.  Is it genetics, or is it our changing tastes? ;)
Jamie Vande
Cologne
Germany

Gerry Webster

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Re: Iris 'Katharine Hodgkin'- query
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2009, 07:25:31 PM »
Jamie - I find the argument compelling. As Mathew & Johnson point out, even if a diploid  I. danfordiae (2n =18) had been available in 1955 how would this give rise to a 2n= 16 plant ('KH') when crossed with I histrioides (2n = 16). A similar problem would arise with a triploid I. danfordiae. The authors also claim that there are significant differences in chromosome shape as well as number. They give a somewhat more 'academic' reference: Johnson & Mathew, (1989). Kew Bull., 44(3), 515 -524
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 07:29:29 PM by Gerry Webster »
Gerry passed away  at home  on 25th February 2021 - his posts are  left  in the  forum in memory of him.
His was a long life - lived well.

gote

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Re: Iris 'Katharine Hodgkin'- query
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2009, 01:29:18 PM »
Jamie - I find the argument compelling. As Mathew & Johnson point out, even if a diploid  I. danfordiae (2n =18) had been available in 1955 how would this give rise to a 2n= 16 plant ('KH') when crossed with I histrioides (2n = 16). A similar problem would arise with a triploid I. danfordiae. The authors also claim that there are significant differences in chromosome shape as well as number. They give a somewhat more 'academic' reference: Johnson & Mathew, (1989). Kew Bull., 44(3), 515 -524
If the chromosome counts are correct, I agree that the winogradowii theory is by far the most likely. However, I also think that we should not believe that diploid danforide was unavailable at the time - all bulbs do not come from Dutch bulb fields. If Andersson had winogradowii growing why not diploid danfordie??.
Göte
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Regelian

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Re: Iris 'Katharine Hodgkin'- query
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2009, 01:42:02 PM »
Jamie - I find the argument compelling. As Mathew & Johnson point out, even if a diploid  I. danfordiae (2n =18) had been available in 1955 how would this give rise to a 2n= 16 plant ('KH') when crossed with I histrioides (2n = 16). A similar problem would arise with a triploid I. danfordiae. The authors also claim that there are significant differences in chromosome shape as well as number. They give a somewhat more 'academic' reference: Johnson & Mathew, (1989). Kew Bull., 44(3), 515 -524
If the chromosome counts are correct, I agree that the winogradowii theory is by far the most likely. However, I also think that we should not believe that diploid danforide was unavailable at the time - all bulbs do not come from Dutch bulb fields. If Andersson had winogradowii growing why not diploid danfordie??.
Göte

I have to agree with both of you.  If the chromosomes have been studied, then a 99% conclusion should be possible, as these do not lie.  The centromere positions on the chromosomes should be different enough to identify from which species they originated with a high probability.
Jamie Vande
Cologne
Germany

 


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