We hope you have enjoyed the SRGC Forum. You can make a Paypal donation to the SRGC by clicking the above button

Author Topic: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018  (Read 18919 times)

Gerdk

  • grower of sweet violets
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2018, 10:28:05 AM »
Thank you Yann!

It seems I need to correct my remarks according the origin and distribution of Narcissus cavanillesii in  North Africa and Spain. After I had a look at my collection of daffodils articles I noted

' Migrations from the Iberian Peninsula to northern Africa and coinciding with the Messinian salinity crisis and Pleiostocene glaciations are also observed in two other sections of the subgenus Narcissus. N. cavanillesii (section Tapeinanthus) is dated as having diverged from its Iberian ancestral lineage at c. 6.4 Ma, .....'

Santos-Gally, Pablo Vargas and Juan Arroyo (2012)
Insights into Neogene Mediterranean biogeography based on phylogenetic relationships of mountain and lowland lineages of Narcissus (Amaryllidaceae)


I guess I mixed up some information concerning a predominant distribution of autumn flowering daffodils in North Africa compared to Spain with a migration route.

Gerd

Gerd Knoche, Solingen
Germany

Karaba

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
  • Country: fr
    • My 2015-2016 seed list (in french)
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2018, 10:31:32 AM »
So, between Salmon and Zonnveld, someone is wrong...
Salmon seems to be the only one to have found 2n = 14 or 21 as Marques also found only 2n=28 in all populations sampled (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3241596/#MCR282C32 and https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1558-5646.2010.00983.x) and all references about chromosome count say 2n=28 for this species.
Bigger form of N. cavanillesii from Morocco may have been introgressed by N. elegans ?
Yvain Dubois - Isère, France (Zone 7b)  _ south east Lyon

Yann

  • Journal Access Group
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2922
  • Country: fr
  • Growing and collecting plants since i was young
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2018, 09:40:13 PM »
Yvain very interesting doc. I quickly read the study of Isabel Marques and conclusion is indeed 2n=28



So as Gerd mentionned a possible migration of the morrocan population may explain the DNA?
And why the bulb is so different?

Gonna read in deep the Marques study...
North of France

Karaba

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
  • Country: fr
    • My 2015-2016 seed list (in french)
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2018, 07:44:08 AM »
And why the bulb is so different?
I'm not familiar with this species. I grow it from Rafa's seeds but it still haven't flower...

Are you talking about M. Salmon assertion about the 2 subspecies, about Gerd's bulbs or about yours ?
With the mistake about chromosome count, I'm a bit reserved about the description of the 2 subspecies by M. Salmon. I really don't like this kind of description with no data, no statistics and there's a lot (really too much) of this kind of description in the narcissus's world  :-\ He has noted that some populations have very different kind of bulbs but we don't know if there is a cline or if the same kind of bulbs have been noticed in several populations or anything else.

Can Gerd tell us from where are its moroccan bulbs if he nows it ? from Salmon's paper, var mauritanicus is only from southern Morocco, around Tanger and Tetouan, this is still var humilis.

Several populations from southern Morocco have been included in Marques et al. study. One has a special ribotype (R5 for Taforalt) but the 2 other one have the same R1 ribotype than the majority of the other cavanillesii. You can also notice than some populations of cavanillesii have individual that share the same ribotype with individual from the same place of N. miniatus (obsoletus), N. elegans or N. serotinus, which can be a sign of introgression (in a direction or the other...). This could be an explanation of the multiflower stem of some cavanillesii...
Yvain Dubois - Isère, France (Zone 7b)  _ south east Lyon

Gerdk

  • grower of sweet violets
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2018, 12:52:06 PM »
Can Gerd tell us from where are its moroccan bulbs if he nows it ? 

About the origin of these plants Ian Robertson wrote (Nov. 5th, 2014):

' With regard to where it originated, while I am not absolutely certain, I am almost sure that they came from a population south of Agadir which is the same as Mike Salmon's. I received mine from Dr Tom Norman about twenty years ago. '

- and additionally (Nov. 13 th, 2014):
... ' but I was trying to speak to Bob and Rannveig Wallis who have four clones of N. cavanillesii from John Blanchard and Tom Norman collections which all came from south Morocco. Bob thought that the flowers on mine were slightly larger than theirs but otherwise much the same. So I think it is a fairly safe assumption that mine came from one of the south Moroccan populations.'

A stem with two flowers is found occasionally  in all of the Spanish populations of N. cavanillesii which I know.

Gerd





Gerd Knoche, Solingen
Germany

Gerdk

  • grower of sweet violets
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2018, 07:44:45 PM »
This is a greenish coloured Narcissus obsoletus (miniatus) from El Palmar/Cadiz.
I guess the green tint comes from a hybridization event with participation of Narcissus viridiflorus long ago.
The last pic shows the difference to plain obsoletus.

Gerd
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 07:46:36 PM by Gerdk »
Gerd Knoche, Solingen
Germany

Gerdk

  • grower of sweet violets
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2018, 08:38:04 AM »
Same (greenish) flower two days later!

Gerd
Gerd Knoche, Solingen
Germany

Gerdk

  • grower of sweet violets
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2018, 08:45:44 AM »
1. Even some flowers of N. obsoletus from Crete show a different tint

2. - 4.  A nice form of Narcissus serotinus s. str., the last pic shows the typical abruptly inflated tube

Gerd
Gerd Knoche, Solingen
Germany

Gerdk

  • grower of sweet violets
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2018, 06:41:02 PM »
Next ones

A potful of Narcissus obsoletus (miniatus) - my best form, originally from Cadiz
and a slightly orange tinted specimen

Gerd
Gerd Knoche, Solingen
Germany

Karaba

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
  • Country: fr
    • My 2015-2016 seed list (in french)
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2018, 02:46:49 PM »
I'm not familiar with this species. I grow it from Rafa's seeds but it still haven't flower...
It was ten days ago. Now, I'm proud and happy with 2 tiny flowers  ;D
Grown from seeds sown 2,5 years ago !

Competition to be the tiniest autumn bulb is harsh : Acis rosea or Narcissus cavanillesii ?
Yvain Dubois - Isère, France (Zone 7b)  _ south east Lyon

Gerdk

  • grower of sweet violets
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2018, 06:39:09 PM »
Very nice Ivain! Small but beautiful!

Did you notice if they close their flowers overnight? My plants are over and I forgot to look for this
phenomenon.

Gerd
Gerd Knoche, Solingen
Germany

Yann

  • Journal Access Group
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2922
  • Country: fr
  • Growing and collecting plants since i was young
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2018, 07:14:45 PM »
Only 2.5 years to see this nice flowers? damn mine bulbils should be boosted
North of France

annew

  • Daff as a brush
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5307
  • Country: england
    • Dryad Nursery: Bulbs and Botanic Cards
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2018, 05:49:45 PM »
How did that happen?  ??? My first ever flower on an autumn daffodil and it's in a pot labelled N. scaberulus! Any ID? Is there a key somewhere of autumn narcissi? The white ones do all look very similar to the beginner.
MINIONS! I need more minions!
Anne Wright, Dryad Nursery, Yorkshire, England

www.dryad-home.co.uk

Karaba

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
  • Country: fr
    • My 2015-2016 seed list (in french)
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2018, 08:44:13 PM »
Did you notice if they close their flowers overnight?
Here they are at 9:00 PM

Yvain Dubois - Isère, France (Zone 7b)  _ south east Lyon

Gerdk

  • grower of sweet violets
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
Re: Autumn flowering narcissus in the Northern Hemisphere 2018
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2018, 09:21:55 PM »
How did that happen?  ??? My first ever flower on an autumn daffodil and it's in a pot labelled N. scaberulus! Any ID? Is there a key somewhere of autumn narcissi? The white ones do all look very similar to the beginner.

Anne, this is Narcissus obsoletus. I guess there isn't a key for all autumn flowering daffodils but if you have a look here you'll find most of them.
It is in Spanish but with some imagination and a dictionary it will be useful.

http://www.floraiberica.es/floraiberica/texto/imprenta/tomoXX/20_184_05_Narcissus.pdf

Gerd
Gerd Knoche, Solingen
Germany

 


Scottish Rock Garden Club is a Charity registered with Scottish Charity Regulator (OSCR): SC000942
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal