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Author Topic: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)  (Read 26494 times)

annew

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2018, 06:48:41 PM »
Sometimes, seedlings can be quite surprising:

Sometimes they make me laugh:

Sometimes they make you wish you hadn't bothered:

And sometimes they make you thankful to friends far away - look at the variation in this pot of seeds sent to me by forumist Lesley Cox:
MINIONS! I need more minions!
Anne Wright, Dryad Nursery, Yorkshire, England

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ielaba2011

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2018, 11:12:41 PM »
Jaime,
It's not unusual to be puzzled when you try to identify Narcissus (bulbocodium) obesus. My 'daffodil bible' - Narcissus from Blanchard (1990) stated in the beginning: There is more disagreement about this variety than any other.
Even Iberian botanists (Fernandes/Valdes) don't agree whether ' obesus ' should be treated as a species, subspecies or a variety.
This means to me that there must be a lot of variation between plants which are united under the term mentioned.
Besides this I believe that a species with a such large distribution (Portugal/Spain/Morocco) necessarely  might not be uniform.  which incurve at the margin,

Personally I prefer a (nonscientific) simple view and call all plants as Narcissus obesus which show the characteristics of rather large flowers, a deep yellow corona, which incurve at the margin, held on short stems in connection with prostrate and fleshy stems.
It would be interesting if you  let us know how uniform the plants within the populations you mentioned here are.

Gerd

Thank you Greg for your explanation.

I think I already had notieced some variety within the bulbocodium subspecies,  I was aware of its variability but, clearly ,I wasn't fully prepared to make a positive ID distinction betwen both subspecies..or I should say species...when you mention  "a corona which incurve at the margin" I can now distinctly relate to the obesus species, and the gold deep yellow flower, in contrast to a paler yellow...but, I definately came across some obesus narcissi with some rather thin leaves, and maybe somewhat  grassy leaves. Also as @Karaba was saying I was going through the photos from http://flora-on.pt/#/d20 of the portuguese flora, which stresses the importance of these green marks in the back of the corona, and aparently I can find the green marks more of less notable, again in both species. So, that's why we were misleaded to a wrong N. bulbucodium sbsp. bulbocodium identificarion .

Thank you for making the point with this species, I think now I'm aware of a much better way to aproach both species.

Next time I will try to make photos of both populations of obesus, shwoing the diversity of this species.

Jaime Eusebio
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 11:14:37 PM by ielaba2011 »
Jaime, Central Portugal; Zone 9.

www.jamesjardimsuspenso.blogspot.com

ielaba2011

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2018, 01:58:37 AM »
I think that Jaime refer to this : http://flora-on.pt/#/d20 Lots of pictures of both species on the same site which show the variety in height of stem and form of the corolla : http://flora-on.pt/#/1Narcissus+bulbocodium

From a genetic point of view, Fonseca et al. (2015) (https://www.repository.utl.pt/bitstream/10400.5/14987/1/REP-JCCOSTA-Phylogenenetic%20approach%20of%20the%20section%20Bulbocodii-1.pdf be careful figures are mixed !) have shown that N. obesus has its organella (mitochondry + chloroplast) closer to cantabricus than other bulbocodium species. This have been also shown in the last study on the phylogeny of Narcissus. The nuclear phylogeny is different, obesus is closer that other bulbocodium species which suggest an old hybridisation. Anyway, with those studies, Narcissus obesus is now usually consider as a valid species and one of the most distinct of the bulbocodium like species.

Thank you Yvain for the paper completly new to me,  very interesting to me how mitochondrial dna puts obesus closer to Narcissus cantabricus and thus a maternal lineage to this species.... but, also this group it's not monophiletic and much more complex. They also say some mofologic caracteristics have limited taxonomic utility... hello ..green marks on the back of the corona??

Is there any chance of obesus becoming a fully recognised species within few years?
I would love to further study this bulbococium species. Very interesting. 

Jaime
Jaime, Central Portugal; Zone 9.

www.jamesjardimsuspenso.blogspot.com

YT

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2018, 03:25:14 PM »
Sometimes, seedlings can be quite surprising:
Sometimes they make me laugh:
Sometimes they make you wish you hadn't bothered:
And sometimes they make you thankful to friends far away - look at the variation in this pot of seeds sent to me by forumist Lesley Cox:
In the third picture, it looks a mini pink trumpet for me :o :D :P
Tatsuo Y
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YT

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2018, 03:30:09 PM »
Narcissus ‘Trumpet Voluntary’ :)
It has been categorised in "standard" height in the DaffSeek but it is true miniature at my place ;)
Tatsuo Y
By the Pacific coast, central part of main island, Japan

YT

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2018, 03:39:44 PM »
Narcissus watieri
Morocco, Atlas Mts., Toubkal. 2400m. Stony slopes.
It's very shy to flower at my place... I probably have to feed them more :-\
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 03:58:03 PM by YT »
Tatsuo Y
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Maggi Young

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2018, 03:43:19 PM »
Narcissus ‘Trumpet Voluntary’ :)
It has been categorised in "standard" height in the DaffSeek but it is true miniature at my place ;)
It looks  just perfect!
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

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Maggi Young

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #82 on: March 19, 2018, 03:44:41 PM »
Narcissus watieri
Morocco, Atlas Mts., Toubkal. 2400m. Stony slopes.
It's very shy to flower at my place... I probably have to feed them more :-\
Perhaps a little feed would help - but I am pleased to see this is the form I prefer, without the  folded edges  to the petals. So much more elegant.
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

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YT

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #83 on: March 19, 2018, 03:59:22 PM »
Thank you and your advice, Maggi :) Yes, this N. watieri is one of my most favourite daffs.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 04:05:05 PM by YT »
Tatsuo Y
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Gerdk

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #84 on: March 20, 2018, 03:03:01 PM »
Thank you Greg for your explanation.

I think I already had notieced some variety within the bulbocodium subspecies,  I was aware of its variability but, clearly ,I wasn't fully prepared to make a positive ID distinction betwen both subspecies..or I should say species...when you mention  "a corona which incurve at the margin" I can now distinctly relate to the obesus species, and the gold deep yellow flower, in contrast to a paler yellow...but, I definately came across some obesus narcissi with some rather thin leaves, and maybe somewhat  grassy leaves. Also as @Karaba was saying I was going through the photos from http://flora-on.pt/#/d20 of the portuguese flora, which stresses the importance of these green marks in the back of the corona, and aparently I can find the green marks more of less notable, again in both species. So, that's why we were misleaded to a wrong N. bulbucodium sbsp. bulbocodium identificarion .
Thank you for making the point with this species, I think now I'm aware of a much better way to aproach both species.
Next time I will try to make photos of both populations of obesus, shwoing the diversity of this species.
Jaime Eusebio

Jaime,
Late - but I hope not too late - I now came to the realisation that I made my comments to your  ' obesus ' pictures rather flippant and
mainly based on experience with specimen obtained from non wild (or unknown) origin.
These plants exhibit the characteristics mentioned by me - it is quite possible that the situation at the natural habitat is totally different. So I have to confess that I am not as convinced about my identification as I stated formerly.
Please let me tell you that I am very pleased about the contributions from your country, hoping you will continue.
I'll try to comment more carefully in the future :(

Gerd
Gerd Knoche, Solingen
Germany

YT

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #85 on: March 23, 2018, 02:58:23 PM »
Narcissus atlanticus, JJA 694.100 :)
Tatsuo Y
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ashley

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #86 on: March 23, 2018, 03:36:16 PM »
That atlanticus is wonderful to see Tatsuo, along with your beautiful watieri above 8)
Ashley Allshire, Cork, Ireland

ielaba2011

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2018, 12:14:38 AM »
Jaime,
Late - but I hope not too late - I now came to the realisation that I made my comments to your  ' obesus ' pictures rather flippant and
mainly based on experience with specimen obtained from non wild (or unknown) origin.
These plants exhibit the characteristics mentioned by me - it is quite possible that the situation at the natural habitat is totally different. So I have to confess that I am not as convinced about my identification as I stated formerly.
Please let me tell you that I am very pleased about the contributions from your country, hoping you will continue.
I'll try to comment more carefully in the future :(

Gerd

Hi Gerd,
You did well, I have to thank you for making me aware of this kind of mistakes regarding N. bulbocodium identification.
Anayway, I think you were right, all of those were  N. obesus, and specially the corona incurved at the margin makes it all more clear now.
Thank you.
Jaime.
Jaime, Central Portugal; Zone 9.

www.jamesjardimsuspenso.blogspot.com

ielaba2011

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #88 on: March 26, 2018, 12:36:34 AM »
These must be the last photos of N. obesus from this season. The photos were taken last week, and after the heavy rains they probably won't last much longer. Saying that, we started to have flowers from Narcissus obesus since the midle of February, we are now close to the end of March...

Photos were taken in the cliffs near the village of S. Martinho do Porto.
Jaime, Central Portugal; Zone 9.

www.jamesjardimsuspenso.blogspot.com

Gerdk

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Re: Narcissus - Spring 2018 (from February onwards)
« Reply #89 on: March 27, 2018, 04:56:44 PM »
What a sight - much better than in my greenhouse!
Thank you Jaime.

Gerd
Gerd Knoche, Solingen
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