We hope you have enjoyed the SRGC Forum. You can make a Paypal donation to the SRGC by clicking the above button

Author Topic: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission  (Read 7852 times)

Tim Harberd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« on: August 31, 2017, 08:36:24 PM »
Hi Guys,
   Does anyone, who lives near Edinburgh, fancy a little assignment?

   In recent years I have enjoyed growing the cultivar PHD33643, so I decided to try finding out a little bit more about it.
   I presumed that the ‘name’ refered to a herbarium sheet and the Royal Botanic Garden Edinburgh have made their herbarium searchable online. The RGBE Herbarium does include some specimens collected by PH Davis, but none of them seemed to match with PHD33643.
   I submitted a website query on the matter and received a helpful reply from Lesley Scott who had checked the Peter Davis collecting books:  Number 33643 is listed as Quercus hartwissiana from the Caucasus.
   My stock came from Glenchantry, so I asked if they could shed any more light on the issue. I received a very helpful note from Wol Staines saying that their stock came from John Morley. Wol included a photo of the relevant page from a Northgreen catalogue which stated that it originated from Chris Brickell.
   I’ve since been in touch with Chris Brickell and he has kindly offered to do a little more research on the problem….

   My current feeling is that the ‘name’ DOES refer to an entry in the Peter Davis collecting books and that its likely to be out by one number. So, if I had access to the books, I’d check the ten entries 3364* first. Then 336*3, then 33*43, then 3*643 and finally *3643.

   I have no idea whether the books are publicly accessible… Does anyone nearby fancy trying it? A photograph of the relevant entry would be wonderful!

Tim DH

Brian Ellis

  • Brian the Britisher
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5205
  • Country: england
  • 'Dropoholic
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2017, 09:13:24 AM »
What a good idea Tim, 'PHD 33643' is one of my favourites  ::) and I can never understand why it was never given a proper name.  I do hope someone is able to throw light on this.  Interestingly I also have a G. 'Grandiflorus' which is a good variety and was sourced from RBGE via Cambridge Botanical Garden and Ann Borrill, however there seems to be no paper trail to be followed for that either!
Brian Ellis, Brooke, Norfolk UK. altitude 30m Mintemp -8C

Matt T

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1849
  • Country: scotland
  • Nuts about Narcissus
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2017, 09:19:54 AM »
It will be a little while before I am in Edinburgh, but if no-one else steps up before then I may be able to help. Will drop you a line when I know I'm heading that way.
Matt Topsfield
Isle of Benbecula, Western Isles where it is mild, windy and wet! Zone 9b

"There is no mistake too dumb for us to make"

DaveM

  • Doctor Rock
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 560
  • Country: scotland
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2017, 12:10:15 PM »
I'll give it a go, Tim. It wont be for a couple of weeks though as I'll be away.
Dave Millward, East Lothian, Scotland

Alan_b

  • 'finder of the light'
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3976
  • Country: england
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2017, 02:00:59 PM »
As Tim probably did, I searched the RBGE Herbariun catalogue online for Galanthus of which there are 165 entries.  I found four distinct records where Davis (P.H./Peter H/Peter Hadland) was listed as the collector or co-collector.  These were:
  • 5392 on 14-Mar-42 in Lebanon
  • 25581 on 01-Apr-56 in Turkey
  • 26090 on 18-Apr-56 in Turkey
  • 26830 on 19-Apr-57 in Turkey
I then tried a search for Davis as collector and 3364* which gave 33643, 33647, 33648, 33649 & 3364K.
Davis as collector and 336*3 gives 33623, 33633 (33643) 33653 33673 & 33683
Davis as collector and 33*43 adds 33043
Davis as collector and 3*643 adds no further entries
Davis as collector and *3643 adds 43643
I also tried *643 to no avail
I tried transposing adjacent numbers and that enabled me to eliminate 33634

All the numbers I have listed above ARE in the online herbarium catalogue and are ARE NOT Galanthus or a similar species.  So anyone who goes to consult the book can eliminate the need to look at any of the numbers listed above.

By the way, you can see online a picture of 33643 showing the oak leaves and a typed label that confirms the number. 
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 03:04:04 PM by Alan_b »
Almost in Scotland.

Alan_b

  • 'finder of the light'
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3976
  • Country: england
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2017, 03:23:28 PM »
Also 43643 dates from 1966.  If Brian is correct in his earlier assertion about the date of collection

... that should be PHD 33643, it was collected by Peter Davis in Georgia in the 1970s.

then you should be looking for a much larger collection number.

I notice that Freda Cox's book says the same thing about the place and date; perhaps that is the source of Brian's information?  PHD33643 is not featured in the 'Snowdrops' monograph.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 03:43:48 PM by Alan_b »
Almost in Scotland.

Brian Ellis

  • Brian the Britisher
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5205
  • Country: england
  • 'Dropoholic
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2017, 04:34:26 PM »
From the North Green Catalogue for 2007:

PHD 33643: this superb form was originally collected by Dr. Peter Davis in Georgia in the 1970s.  A snowdrop of great substance and perfect proportions.  The delicately fragrant flower has beautifully rounded, strong white outer segments and a clean, dark green heart-shaped mark on the inner segments.  We are most grateful to Chris Brickell for this classically beautiful and destirable snowdrop.  £25.00
Brian Ellis, Brooke, Norfolk UK. altitude 30m Mintemp -8C

Alan_b

  • 'finder of the light'
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3976
  • Country: england
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2017, 05:39:20 PM »
43643 dates from 1966. So for the 1970s we should be looking for a much larger collection number. 53643 seems like the best bet.  Oh, but it isn't because 53615 & 53688 were both collected a few days apart in Morocco in March 1973.  It isn't 63643 either because 63627 & 63669 were both collected in Italy on 22nd & 23rd May 1979, respectively.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 05:56:54 PM by Alan_b »
Almost in Scotland.

Alan_b

  • 'finder of the light'
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3976
  • Country: england
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2017, 06:30:29 PM »
More digging in the Herbarium.  Davis was in Georgia in June 1959.  In fact all of his collections from Georgia in the Herbarium date from that one month.  He collected samples in the range 33621 to 33682 there on 11th June,  33683 was on 12th June and then there's a time gap util 33687 on 29th June but still in Georgia.  The oak that is 33643 is recorded as collected in Turkey but he must have crossed the border then crossed back it is evident from the recorded collection location that this is an error.

The 3364* numbers that we don't know about are 33640, 33641, 33642, 36644, 36645 & 36646.  The 336*3 numbers that we don't know about are 33603, 33613 & 36693.  But we know these should all (or almost all) come from Georgia or very close by.  So if the discovery was made in 1959 rather than the 1970s then there are only 9 possibilities if a single digit has been misrecorded.         
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 07:58:36 AM by Alan_b »
Almost in Scotland.

Tim Harberd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2017, 10:05:43 PM »
By Heck Alan,
   Superb work! You’ve got a lot further than me, with the same resources!!… Just to confuse things even more… It was listed in the North Green catalogue as G. plicatus. I attach some photos from recent years. The leaves don’t seem obviously folded to me.

Tim DH

Brian Ellis

  • Brian the Britisher
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5205
  • Country: england
  • 'Dropoholic
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2017, 10:23:51 PM »
Mmm not the best of photos, but here is mine.  I think I can just make out a bit of folding on one or two leaves when I look at an enlarged photo of the original.
Brian Ellis, Brooke, Norfolk UK. altitude 30m Mintemp -8C

Alan_b

  • 'finder of the light'
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3976
  • Country: england
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2017, 02:21:14 PM »
Just a few more drops of information squeezed from the Herbarium database.  On 5th June 1959 Peter Hadland Davis was near Simferopl which is on the Crimean peninsula in what he recorded as Ukraine (but is currently under dispute) where he made collection 33532.  Two days later (7th June) he makes collection 33575 still recorded as Ukraine (there are others in between).  The next specimen on the database is 33623 on 11th June in Georgia.  The collection location is recorded as Caucasus: Distr. Abkhasia: Sukhumi.  Sukhumi is the capital of the breakaway Republic of Abkhazia (then, and disputably still, part of Georgia).  Abkhasia is a little further clockwise round the black sea coast; perhaps Davis travelled by boat between the two locales?

33643, the oak specimen, also has the recorded location as Abkhasia: Sukhumi so the fact that the country is recorded as Turkey is evidently a mistake.  There are multiple collections in the herbarium from 11th June but only one , 33686, from the following day, 12th June.

Then there is a mysterious gap of 16 days until collection 33688 on 29th June.  This location is recorded as Georgia:T'bilisi so Davis travelled across Georgia in those "missing" 16 days.  He then does a lot of collecting in a short time, of which the last number in the Herbarium is 33927 "Georgia:T'bilisi Collecting locality: Dabahane gorge above Botanical Institute" on 30th June.  The next collection number, 33983, is from Switzerland in March 1960.

Assuming Davis collected our mystery snowdrop at some time on this trip, would it have had any leaves remaining or was it collected as a bulb with only a provisional identification?  If somebody gains access to the collection books they might need to check for any bulb, identified or not.     
Almost in Scotland.

Alan_b

  • 'finder of the light'
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3976
  • Country: england
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2017, 08:38:43 AM »
In summary, it is most likely that the snowdrop known as PHD33643 is recorded in the collection book somewhere in the range 33576 to 33687 since all the collections in Abkhasia lie within this range of numbers.  It might be recorded as a bulb rather than a Galanthus as it could have been dormant at the time of collection.

If Tim is correct and only one digit is wrong then the possibilities are 33603, 33613, 33640, 33641, 33642, 36644, 36645 & 36646.  All other single digit errors in the range are accounted for as herbarium specimens.

If it cannot be found within the suggested range of numbers then the next best possible range is 33689 to 33982 as all the unknown collections in the T'bilisi area lie within this range.  33693, 33743, 33843 & 33943 are the four possibilities with a single digit wrong (as none of these are in the herbarium database).

If a Galanthus or an unidentified bulb cannot be found within either of these suggested ranges of collection numbers then either the information that the snowdrop was collected in Georgia is wrong or Davis made another expedition to Georgia but brought back no samples that are recorded in the herbarium database.


« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 08:58:15 AM by Alan_b »
Almost in Scotland.

David Nicholson

  • Hawkeye
  • Journal Access Group
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 13117
  • Country: england
  • Why can't I play like Clapton
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2017, 09:33:11 AM »
Allowing for the fact that I shall in future always ask Alan if he can complete my Telegraph crossword whenever I'm stuck, I don't think this will rise very highly in the list of things that cause me to loose sleep ::)
David Nicholson
in Devon, UK  Zone 9b
"Victims of satire who are overly defensive, who cry "foul" or just winge to high heaven, might take pause and consider what exactly it is that leaves them so sensitive, when they were happy with satire when they were on the side dishing it out"

Alan_b

  • 'finder of the light'
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3976
  • Country: england
Re: Galanthus Detective... Proposed Mission
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2017, 09:51:51 AM »
I guess I just really enjoy playing detective, David.  In this instance it turned out that the RBGE Herbarium database held a lot of clues that could be uncovered from the comfort of the seat in front of my computer.  I hope somebody does get the opportunity to follow this up and track down the correct collection number for the snowdrop in question.  We already know that the original assertion in the North Green catalogue that it was collected in the 1970s is unlikely to be correct.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 11:06:08 AM by Alan_b »
Almost in Scotland.

 


Scottish Rock Garden Club is a Charity registered with Scottish Charity Regulator (OSCR): SC000942
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal