Narcissus May 2015

[Anthony Darby]

Very wet today, so Narcissus albidus RW8853 from the Seed Exchange, sown Feb 2012, looks a little drookit!

[Mini-daffs]

 
Latestart, from what I understand it is not unusual for commercial interests to rename bulbs but this is a fairly obvious one because it was one of the early small splits that is well known here. Not quite miniature but very prolific and perfumed. Its breeding was quite innovative at the time. Rod Barwick of GBF is noted for being an innovative breeder. Fyno is one of Rod's early flowering bulbocodium hybrids.
Anthony, is this the normal time for your Narcissus albidus to flower? We have some N. romieuxii flowering at the moment. They normally flower at this time of the year or a bit later despite our frosts. Not sure they would survive too well where it snows. We have a few things flowering at the moment. It just reminds me that I need to replant and plant seed out quicker. I need to finish planting and replanting before our main season starts. Just to make matters worse we have run out of pots and it will be a couple of weeks until a new shipment arrives. I need some of Anne's serfs!
We don't do too much with our winter flowering daffodils because there is no demand for them. I will take some photos of the N. romieuxii. One of them is very nice.

[latestart]

thank you for the explanation on the change of.name. I think it is N.Splatter but the name is not very appealing.compared to N.Prom Dance. on another website where I showed it, the reaction has been very positive.

[Anthony Darby]

Graham, the same pot was flowering on exactly the same day last year, so it seems to be normal. Flowers in January in the UK.

[Mini-daffs]

 
Latestart
It is usually the prerogative of the breeder to name what he or she has bred so most breeders consider it quite an insult for a commercial interest to rename them without consent just because they see another name as more marketable. Such renaming also makes a joke of the RHS Register and things like Daffseek. Lots of time and money has gone into both but what is the point if lots of people just call them what they think.
We (ie Keira Bulbs) sell quite a deal under number and reserve the naming rights to ourselves. I have allowed one of our US customers to name some seedlings of ours that have grown well for him.  If you look at the breeding of a number of a number of Anne Wright's seedlings you will see some named and some numbered Keira bulbs. Anne has done the right thing. I would also be surprised if Anne would not be upset if one of her named seedlings was sold as something else.
The interesting thing about Splatter is that Prom Dance is being sold without breeder acknowledgement. It says originator unknown.
Most daffodil breeders know the other breeders and I will readily admit that I know and have a great respect for Rod Barwick. He is a highly innovative breeder. I don't tend to publish photos of other breeders flowers but that is because my prime interest is our own seedlings. However, Fermi grows quite a few things from Rod and he has put up photos of quite a few of his seedlings. Rod's innovative contribution has been enormous in bulbocodium hybrids where his seedlings have set the standard for quite some time.
It is -6 degrees celsius outside so it will be a while before I can start planting again.

[Mini-daffs]

 
Hi
Anthony if it is flowering now it is flowering in late Autumn. As I have mentioned we have a few things flowering now. They could be used to bring flowers forward. The tazetta seedling looks quite good. The N. romieuxii that has the rolled cup is a particularly good flower and would get marked if it flowered later in the season.

[annew]

  If you look at the breeding of a number of a number of Anne Wright's seedlings you will see some named and some numbered Keira bulbs. Anne has done the right thing. I would also be surprised if Anne would not be upset if one of her named seedlings was sold as something else.

Damn' right I would.

[latestart]

Hi Anne and mini-daff you are confirming a reply I gave on another website - 
"I showed a photo of Prom Dance on the SRGC site and another member said he thought it bore a close resemblance to Narcissus 'Splatter'. It was registered by an Australian grower back in 1999 so I am waiting to see if there is any update on that information. With three heads to a stem I think it is definitely a winner regardless of the name. Prom Dance sounds and suits the flower better I think but if I had bred it and gone to the trouble of registering it and then it was claimed by someone else I would be very upset. It will be interesting to see if there is a follow up on the problem."
Does PBR not operate for daffodils and narcissus? Daffseek and the RHS registration lists are a great way of documenting the plants but it is a shame if they do not regulate the use of registered bulbs. I laughed at how Rod Barwick named Fyno. He seems to be much more interested in the breeding of the bulbs rather than in naming them but that should not allow someone to take advantage of his good nature if that is what has happened.


edit by maggi to change Slatter to Splatter   

[annew]

PBR costs a lot of money, as far as I know.

[fermi de Sousa]

Thanks Matt. My pot labelled Narcissus serotinus I have been nurturing for 4 years now has a bud appearing in the centre of the bunch of leaves from one bulb. Clearly NOT serotinus, so, as has been suggested, may be bulbocodium serotinus?

Anthony,
at least yours has turned out to be a narcissus!
Of course, the original seeds may never have germinated and a rogue muscari snuck in while I wasn't looking
cheers
fermi

[Anthony Darby]

Well Fermi, see my post in June.

[latestart]

After mini-daffs queried the validity of the name of N. Prom Dance I felt duty bound to investigate some more. I emailed Melanie Underwood, the International Registrar of Daffodils at the RHS. I copy her reply here for you.
 Further to your email I have had a chance to investigate your query further. 
‘Splatter’ does bear a resemblance to Prom Dance, however, I do not believe them to be one and the same. 
The corona of ‘Splatter’ tends to be in two whorls with the outer whorl generally tucking behind the inner perianth segments.  The corona of Prom Dance is more deeply lobed than that of ‘Splatter’.  Also, the outer perianth segments of Prom Dance are mucronate whilst those of ‘Splatter’ are not (or hardly) so.
Currently, I do not have the parentage of Prom Dance to compare with that of ‘Splatter’.  This is important, as there are many examples of two cultivars appearing to be similar but which have very different parentage and, therefore, any similarity is co-incidental.
I hope this answers your question but please contact me if you would like to discuss the"

I am not sure I can ask any more of her but am happy to keep up the correspondance in the interests of keeping the integrity of the information we can glean from The Daffodil Register. If anyone can suggest a line of inquiry or wish to contact her themselves to take this forward I would be interested in the outcome. I am an amateur gardener and not qualified to have deep meaningful conversations on technical points.   

[Maggi Young]

Research into this matter is not helped by the fact that 'Prom Dance' does not appear to be registered.
A reminder about the origins of this discussion :  (Latestart's   'Prom Dance' looks to be an altogether larger  flower than 'Splatter' to me in the pix shown in this thread , though not in other pix on the web.)
(Reply 12, previous page http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=13161.msg333713#msg333713  )

 Fermi has shown 'Splatter' several times over the years .....
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4631.msg109078#msg109078
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5963.msg166285#msg166285
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10875.msg283684#msg283684
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10882.msg283685#msg283685
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12231.msg312643#msg312643

I think it does seem that someone just didn't like the name 'Splatter'    Of course, someone  in Europe may have bred a similar flower and  named it, informally, 'Prom Dance'   

[annew]

This shows the importance of proper registration.