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General Subjects => Travel / Places to Visit => Topic started by: Olga Bondareva on December 07, 2006, 09:32:06 AM

Title: Russian gardens
Post by: Olga Bondareva on December 07, 2006, 09:32:06 AM
This topic is for Lesley and all who are interested in Russian gardens. I’d like to introduce some. I couldn’t say they are typical Russian. But these gardens are the best I’ve seen here.

The first one is my friend Elena’s garden. It is in pine forest in 100 km from Moscow. Elena’s grandfather was the famous Russian phloxes selectionist. Therefore she maintains a large (about 70) phloxes collection. By the way Phlox paniculata is one of the favorite Russian plans. No doubt each garden has at list one phlox.

Elena likes shade plants. Last years she’s taken a great interest in alpines, saxifrages, gentians and daphnes.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Susan Band on December 07, 2006, 09:36:43 AM
Looks a lovely garden, really well designed and planted with all the shade plants popular here. What kind of weather do you have? I doesn't look as if it get too hot and dry.
Susan
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on December 07, 2006, 10:00:55 AM
Beautiful shots Olga - gorgeous looking garden as well.
I hope to see more of these hidden little treasures
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Olga Bondareva on December 07, 2006, 10:07:03 AM
Susan, we have very different weather. Every year differs. Last winter was the coldest in history. Two months with temperature about -20 and -44 C in January! Gardeners was really shocked, many of them thought they will find cemetery instead of garden in spring. But gardens are still alive! All plants in my alpine garden were in flowers, ginkgo became 0.5 m taller, roses became more beautiful and magnolias bloomed! Apple and pear trees suffered for a little. I think we were saved by snow. It was about 0.4 m when the lowest temperature.

It was of course unusual winter. Usually it is not lower -30 (-5 on average) and a lot of snow. Sometimes winters are warm. Those are bad winters.  :)

Summers are the same. No forecasts. Three months of reins or two months of drought are the extreme points but sometimes they happen.

Hot and dry, it is not about us.  :) It is about regions to the south of Moscow.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Paul T on December 07, 2006, 10:26:54 AM
Olga,

You have the most beautiful pictures!!  I just loved that snow covered one you posted in the other thread.  Beautiful pictures of a beautiful garden!!  Thanks for taking the time to post them.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Olga Bondareva on December 07, 2006, 11:00:33 AM
Paul, one more winter gift to you!  :)
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Hkind on December 07, 2006, 11:23:55 AM
Welcome Olga - and thanks for taking up the thread!

I have visited Elenas garden two times and being there one feels transported to a fairy tale garden. The multitude of woodland plants is overwhelming!

Here are some of my pics: a self-portrait of Elena's grandfather, a couple of views from the garden and an image of some of Moscow's most active gardeners (from left: Michail Polotnov, Dimitrij (?), Sasha -Elena's husband-, Elena and Yevgenyi Tarasov)

Hannelotte


Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Olga Bondareva on December 07, 2006, 12:21:10 PM
Hannelotte, yes!  :)

My regret, I was too busy and couldn’t meet you. But I’ve heard about you from Lena, Misha and Evgeny many times. Glad to virtually meet you!  (http://club.wcb.ru/images/smiles/icon_evil.gif)
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Maggi Young on December 07, 2006, 01:35:24 PM
A wonderful new thread for us to study, Olga! Thank you!
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Hkind on December 07, 2006, 03:38:09 PM
Olga, I hope we'll meet next time I am in Moscow!

Here are some pictures from Valeria M.'sgarden. He is a collector of Sempervivum and Jovibarba and there are thousands of them in his garden in more shades one can imagine.

Hannelotte
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Lesley Cox on December 10, 2006, 02:14:11 AM
Thank you Olga, for starting this thread - JUST FOR ME! But obviously everyone is interested in what's happening in Russian gardens. Elena's garden looks beautiful and so healthy.

I wonder what is a "typical" Russian garden? Just as we here in NZ wonder and often discuss what is a New Zealand garden? We grow things from every country in the world and oddly, many of our own native plants, which in general are very distinctive, having evolved in isolation to a large extent, look fine or "right" with the more usually grown plants from elsewhere. Our flaxes (Phormium), cabbage trees (Cordyline), astelias and many other spiky plants are quite comfortable with rhododendrons, hostas, primulas etc etc. (Alpines are the exception. NZ natives are much more attractive planted with their own kinds, rather than with the more brightly coloured plants from elsewhere. Much of the attraction of NZ's alpines is in their foliage.)

So I guesss a typical NZ garden is just a collection of whatever plants we like and which grow well for us. Personal tastes and one's own sense of "taste" play a large part in making a garden with which we here are comfortable. But perhaps those coming here from the northern hemisphere think our planting combinations are bizarre or ugly. I don't know. 

Anyway, we all look forward to seeing more of your lovely pictures. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Olga Bondareva on December 10, 2006, 08:24:42 AM
Hannelotte
See you next year!  :D

Lesley
I see we discuss the same questions. And the same
We grow things from every country in the world
I can say about modern Russian garden. Old public gardens and palace parks have their own face. But new private gardens not yet.

Russian personal gardens were mostly orchards and vegetable gardens – just to grow food. Some decorative plants were only addition for a soul. They grew in the front garden usually. Syringa, sorbus, viburnum, padus, philadelphus, phloxes, paeonias are the old cottage garden.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Olga Bondareva on December 10, 2006, 08:31:11 AM
Is a botanic garden a GARDEN? Our main Botanic garden is a large park with a great arbor collection. It has a well constructed Japanese garden.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Olga Bondareva on December 10, 2006, 08:34:08 AM
More pictures.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Hkind on December 10, 2006, 11:33:32 AM
Yes, Olga, I have the same impression as you, that there isn't yet any Russian style of ornamental gardening.  When I think of russian gardens, I think of tidy rows of cabbage and potatoes.

May I show the forum some exemples?

The first image is of a gardening lot in Magadan, where Alexandra Berkutenko has two beds to grow some of her plant collection (her assistent Anatolyi to the left, she herself to the right). 

The second  is from a datcha in the inland of Magadan. The owner is actually interested in rnamental gardening and has collected some of the native plants. Among others there were vigorous mats of Loiseluria procumbens. (im 3).
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Hkind on December 10, 2006, 11:37:01 AM
As a contrast you may have  a look at Anna P,'s new Moscow garden (1-3) and her datcha near Tver. (4-5)
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Hkind on December 10, 2006, 11:46:08 AM
And Elena D.'s garden in Moscow

Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Olga Bondareva on December 10, 2006, 04:24:56 PM
Great photos!  :)

Anna is a professional landscape designer and very well-off lady. Her garden is a good example of talent and rich experience.

Yes, I share your impression. Shown gardens are exception. Very interesting to view Magadan gardens.

But… But…  :D

I’d like to show beautiful gardens. No cabbage.  ;D

The next is a garden of Galina Dubovaya, in 100 km from Moscow.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: mark smyth on December 10, 2006, 05:25:53 PM
Olga what camera do you use? I'm impressed by the long distance quality
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Hkind on December 10, 2006, 06:15:00 PM
Thank you, Olga, fo the beautiful pictures of a beautiful garden I haven't visited yet!

Rock gardening has been poorly represented so far in this thread. So I thought it might be time to show some pics of Evgenyi Tarasov's garden, 100 km  west of Moscow. You can see his own pictures at http://home.onego.ru/~otsoppe/coll5/coll501a.htm (http://home.onego.ru/~otsoppe/coll5/coll501a.htm).

His garden was under re-construction when I visited this year. But maybe you can get an impression. He is especially fond of cushion plants and dwarf conifers, but also cyps and ferns.

The first image shows an over all view from the road. The second is Evgenyi with a collection of seedlings.

Image 3 gives you a view of the rock garden, No 4 a collection of cushion plants waiting for the re-build rock garden and No 5 some witch brushes.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Olga Bondareva on December 11, 2006, 06:48:21 AM
Mark,
It’s old Sony S85. Sometimes I try to change it to something new but there are no alternatives.

Hannelotte, you are right, let’s turn to alpine garden! I’ve been at Evgeniy’s garden many times and I like it very muсh. No doubt he is one of the well-known Russian alpine enthusiasts. He was the first who started to popularize rock gardens and plants here.

Some images from his garden of different years.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Lesley Cox on December 11, 2006, 07:13:42 AM
Thank you Olga and Hannelotte for these super pictures. They give a great impression of what Russian gardeners are doing and I think maybe Russian gardens are not so different from our own, in New Zealand. Certainly the plants we all grow are similar. I suppose that the plants which are beautiful speak for themselves and no matter where we are in the world, their beauty appeals to all growers. It's good to focus on those things which we have in commn rather than perhaps the things which divide us.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Hkind on December 11, 2006, 07:47:46 AM
Thank you, Olga!

Looking at the images gives me a lot of very nice memories! I have never seen the garden in full bloom, since I have to attend my own garden during the best flowering time.  :) :D

You are right, Lesley, gardening is not so different in different countries and cultures. But I think there are still a lot of very interesting russina plants for us to decover. It's a pitty that exchange of plants with Russia is quite difficult.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Olga Bondareva on December 11, 2006, 01:11:04 PM
Hannelotte and Lesley,

You are absolutely right saying gardening is uniting us!

Here is a garden of Konstantin Alexandrov. He is mostly bulb collector. Unfortunately images made in August when bulbs are in their dormancy. But his garden is very “Russian”.

Do you see any only Russian signs at these gardens (with the exception of architecture and samovar)? It’s a very important question for me. Please do not hesitate to say truth. Hannelotte, you saw not only beautiful but ordinary Russian gardens, what could you say? How do they differ from others?
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Hkind on December 11, 2006, 03:33:23 PM
Oh, Olga, that's an impossible question! The differences are mostly given by the owner's preferences, climate, topography and other conditions in the surroundings, I think, and not so much by  national gardening cultures.   Maybe such cultural effects exist when looking at the average gardens in different countries, but hardly when looking at gardens of  plant enthusiasts.  Choice of plant material is important, but you can see the newest cultivars from Holland and USA in Russian gardens. 

Of course there are beautiful gardens  - i.e. gardens with beautiful design - and interesting gardens with unusual plant collections  and boring gardens with lack of design and most conventional choice of plants in Russia - and in Sweden - and in the UK.  - Well, maybe we don't grow as much cabbage as Russian people do.  :P

Hannelotte
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Lesley Cox on December 11, 2006, 07:59:15 PM
No indeed Olga, the pictures above could have been taken anywhere I think, with the exception of the samovar, a lovely thing and it seems to be a working model, with steam coming out. For quick refreshment in the garden? In the UK perhaps there would be an elegant statue but in NZ it would likely be an old plough share or something similar. I've even seen old lavatory bowls used as garden ornaments. (Not in MY garden, I hasten to add!)
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Maggi Young on December 11, 2006, 08:38:57 PM
Wait a minute.... are there NO slugs in Russia? These hostas in all the gardens are so perfect! It is a delight to see them looking so good.
I am getting a feeling of what I call REAL gardens from these posts.... by which I mean a garden made for pleasure (even if for growing food) with plants laid out to look handsome and to provide a pleasant space for people to enjoy... not like so many modern gardens that have too much so-called design and no soul!
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Olga Bondareva on December 13, 2006, 11:59:07 AM
Maggy, we have a lot of slugs especially when summer is wet. Hosta lovers use metaldegid and beer traps.  Hannelotte and Lesley, there are many people here who suppose Russian gardens have their own unique spirit and look. I don’t think so and I am very interested in fresh and clear point if view. Of course there are not enough pictures to make opinion. That’s why I asked Hannelotte.

Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Hkind on December 17, 2006, 09:33:10 AM
Olga, my impression is that people of all nationalities tend to think that their gardens are special. And of course they are, because climate, topography etc are special. Something which may make a certain difference between some gardens in Russia and gardens in crowded Western Europe is the size. You rarely find gardens as large as - for example - Elena's.  The size of the garden  effects  probably also choice of plants and garden design.

I am sorry but I have nothing more to contribute to this thread. Since there seems to be some curiosity regarding gardens in Eastern Europe, I'll start a new thread about some gardens in the southern part of Estonia.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: razvan chisu on December 18, 2006, 06:44:34 AM
Dear Olga
Wonderful pictures and gardens indeed. Also living in a ex-comunist country I can say that our gardens do not have the western-contemporary style yet. Country gardens are mainly filled with vegetables interspersed with the old annuals and summer Dahlias and Cannas. City gardens can be reduced to conifers, roses and a big lawn. There are so few perennials and almost no alpines. So I was very impressed to see the garden pictures of your friend Elena, with so many modern perennials and ferns. Is there a trade in perennials in Russia? Are there nurseries, garden centers and so on? Or perennials are mainly imported from elsewhere. You mentioned gardens associations. How about these, are there many, on which aspects of gardening and horticulture they concentrate?
I hope to see more pictures of gardens in Russia.
Razvan
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Hkind on December 18, 2006, 08:11:11 AM
Hi Razvan,

Glad to see you on this forum!

I have been musing about your reply to Olga and  I think there are quite some people here among us at the forum, who should protest. There are actually lot of gardens in western countries with thousands of different perennials, ferns and alpines - I myself have 1500 - 2000 different plants in my garden.  We are of course plant enthusiasts and our gardens are not comparable with the average gardens in our countries. But on the other hand,  if there is a plant enthusiast in Russia, it is Elena.  Her garden, tended by three generations of cunning and caring gardeners, is outstanding among Russian Gardens. But there are gardens in the rest of the world not so different from hers.

I would be curious to hear more about Romanian gardens. Couldn't you tell us about them?
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: razvan chisu on December 18, 2006, 08:33:35 AM
Dear Hannelotte
There is no need for protesting. What I was trying to say is that Romanian gardens have no perennials at all, in contrast with western gardens where perennials are in such great numbers and diversity.
I was just looking to your Anemone nemorosa varieties and was thinking that in Romania probably there only is the common white form in a few gardens, while in the woods white and a few variations. Though I've looked I have never found doubles, or coloured variants. Only thousands upon thousands of whites. Do you think that maybe I am too far south for such variations to occur? Is there any mutagenic factor that you can think of, which would explain the high diversity of Anemone in Sweden?
Razvan
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Olga Bondareva on December 18, 2006, 10:03:18 AM
Razvan, hi!

Many gardeners here are dreaming about your climate.  :) Think I understand what you say. We have the same gardens at the south of Russia, at the Black Sea shore. Fruit and decorative trees, climbers and annuals. It is too hot for alpines there.

There are some nurseries here. They grow mostly apple and other fruit trees and shrubs and some basic perennials like phloxes, bergenia, etc. It is unprofitable to propagate most of plants here because of short vegetation period. Hostas, heucheras and ferns are from Europe unfortunately. But they are very popular and fashionable.

As for anemone nemorosa it is only white here to. But there are some places where plants become to mutate. You have to travel many times and many locations to find something different and wonderful. 

I join Hannelotte’s question about Romanian gardens.  :D
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Joakim B on December 18, 2006, 10:21:00 AM
Since this thread has slided a bit towards ex commist countries and garden ideas I would like to tell how I have seen Hungarian gardens. It is like Razvan say a lot of annuals and vegitable aand fruit treas here in the country side. Not to forget roses! Every garden where there is a house have a at least one rose. In Hugary there are also iris (a variata form). In Hungary there are nurserys and plant shops but far from every Hungarian garner can and will spend that kind on money on the garden.
In the citys it is a bit of conifers like You said.
There are for sure lovely gardens in Hungary but they are in general behind :( in trends.
I have not seen any hungarian garden magazine nor any garden program on TV. New trends have not come to the masses yet!
That is not an ex- communist thing I think it is where there are little culture in garden books and magazine. Portugal is the same, regarding being a bit behind :(. Different plants though. Only 1 garden magazine and it is only 4 years old and a bit bad I must say. Sweden that has less population have at least 4 and garden programs on TV are very popular! I think that effects how garden trends impact a country.

Sorry for the slight diversion

Joakim
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Hkind on December 18, 2006, 10:25:35 AM
Sorry, Razvan, I obviously have misunderstood you!

As for the Anemone nemorosa, I would say that you just didn't look enough - or at least not close enough. You have to lift hundreds or even thousands of flowers to detect the garden worthy varieties . Most of my anemones are bought cultivars. There are only a few forms found in Swedish nature in my garden. I would be happy to send you some roots next year, when Romania has joined the EU and sending plants is going to be less difficult.

Olga, What about species related to A nemorosa? You have a lot of them in Russia. As I wrote in the thread about A nemorosa, I have just received several roots of A uralensis, which has a lot of different shades. Do you know anything about A caerulea? It seems to be something of a mystery plant to me - very little information about it.

Joakim, Economical development and -as Olga stated - climate are probably important facts for style of gardening.
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: razvan chisu on December 18, 2006, 10:44:22 AM
Continuing on this thread of gardens in ex-comunist states...
I think 50 years of public owned property destroyed private initiative. I am an avid reader of books and magazines, and looking through old stuff, from before the 1950's I found out that there were a lot of nurseries, and flower shows, and horticultural societies with a consistent and frequent activity. Breeding of ornamentals was taking place, but most of those plants are lost now.
Gardening now is either for the rich who hire someone to design and nurture their garden (these are the conifer-lawn gardens I mentioned earlier) either for plant enthusiasts who try to get their hands on novelties but have little money. Perennials here are imported and cost rather a lot for the average person, thus the emphasis on annuals which cost little and seeds can be saved and shared.
Gardening magazines translated from european editions or imported.
The biggest horticultural society is Friends of Roses Society, with over 1000 members in a 20 million citizens country.
As for those corms I would appreciate them very much. Thanks. I have been waiting for the accession of Romania to the EU, as I plan to start next year a nursery with perennials and alpines. Wish me luck!  :)
Razvan
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Maggi Young on December 18, 2006, 11:19:51 AM
I am sure we will all wish you lots of luck and much success in your nursery venture, Razvan.  :-*
Title: Re: Russian gardens
Post by: Joakim B on December 18, 2006, 08:28:09 PM
Good luck with the nursery Razvan.
Good nurseries help making better gardens. They inspire to use different plants in different ways. Or old plants in new ways.

Hannelotte I do not think it is only economical development since Portugal is not that poor country and could afford garden programs on TV. The same goes for Hungary. Gardens are in Hungary used by the older (porer) generation to grow things that can be sold in the market and also pernuals like iris and daylillies when splitted in the autumn. So interesting things can actually be bought cheaply in the market and cheap also to the locals, if they would like to. Unfortunally I do not see much interest for plants only cut flowers. Hopfully this is changing when the interest is spreading to gardens as well. Most people in Hungary or Portugal do not need to grow things in their garden as food to survive but many does. The lack of buzz for gardens in these countries are obvoius and I think that may have a negative effect on the gardens.
I think the lack of inspiration have a big effect on garden style not only lack of money.
Hopfully more nurseries producing things locally improves the interest for gardens.

Kind regards
Joakim
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