Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => General Forum => Topic started by: John85 on February 29, 2012, 08:01:38 AM
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In his bulbblog n° 38 / 2008 Ian showed us how to make a trough with a fish box.Four years later I wonder how they are.Was the"making holes in the polystyrene" method as good as the"wrapping with wire mesh" method in withstanding hard frost?
Do you wrap only the outside of the box with the mesh or also the inside?
Where there any problems or things that could be improved?
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John I never wrap my polystyrene boxes in mesh. I have 42 and all are perfect except one. Half the front fell off after the thaw in December 2010. It would be the one that most people can see
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John - they are doing very well indeed standing up to some of the worst winters we have had without any harm at all.
I have shown updates in various bulb logs through the years showing how the cement has aged and looks more like real stone as time passes.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2009Nov181258556803BULB_LOG__46_comp.pdf
I would never use the wire mesh way of wrapping polystyrene boxes - keying the cement through holes in the box as I demonstrated and have trialed is a much better method.
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A picture is worth a 1000 words so I have just taken a few pictures showing a range of troughs made using that method some from 2008 and some made last year.
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Ian at what stage do you make the stone effect?
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Mark
Check out this thread along with the original bulb log link and if that does not answer your question come back to me.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2463.0
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Ian, what mix do you use?
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All the info is in the links I've given---
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/170908/log.html BULB LOG 38 --- 17th September 08 gives all the construction details
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/081008/log.html ---- more pix
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och aye - ready mixed
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Special thanks for the pictures Ian
The main reason that I was not so keen on making holes through the polystyrene is that it makes thermal bridges reducing the isolation.
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I don't think the polystyrene is used for its insulating(?) properties. Just for a convenient cheap, light weight trough.
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Perhaps not in less extreme climates, but we in Minnesota (zones 3+4) find that plants do tend to survive better in styrofoam troughs better than hypertufa. Although the difference, for me at least, would not make me change over from hypertufa completely. (I use both.) If the hardiness or finickiness of selected plants is in question, then choosing between them would be a factor.
Take into consideration too, that the insulative quality could be advantageous in excessive heat as well. Also, the softening of quick temperature changes in our increasingly fluctuating climate can only be a good thing.
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Here are my efforts from today. A block of limestone from a local supplier and a few hours plus a couple of bruised knuckles.
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WOW! :)
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VERY nice, Jamus!
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Thanks Maggi, My Dad found me some nice tufa rock so we'll see how I go building it up and getting it ready for planting. Now all I need are a dozen or so nice saxifrages! I have some germinated from SRGC seed, but I'll have to be patient if I use those wee babies. (Scottish vernacular)
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Jan Tholhuijsen in the Netherlands is very good at devising projects to give him great planting opportunities - several have already been shared in the International Rock Gardener e-magazine - he has been working on the instructions for his latest idea which is for a different type of polystyrene trough -
"This time I get the trough on the workbench,normally on the floor is easier but there is not enough light on the floor for filming.
Covering the trough with the soaked cotton cloths (tea towels) is not difficult, but requires some skill and knowledge. Therefore, I hope this video will help.
This is my first video with moving images made with my photo camera which includes this function. So do not pay attention on the quality. What matters is that you get an idea, how to apply the (tea) towels.
First, with a brush, “paint” the trough fully with a cement porridge. This is to assist the bond the coating to the (tea) cloths.
Wearing good protective gloves, moisten the cotton tea towels and soak/coat them well with cement porridge. Make sure the bottom of the trough on the outside is flush with the bottom of the cloth.
With any remaining cement porridge, coat the bottom of the trough.
After 2 days you are able to restore / repair the exterior of the trough with cement porridge on any bad pieces.
After 3 days I again lubricate the outside with a thin cement gruel
When that is dry, turn the trough over and smear the outer base with a layer of a half a centimeter cement paste. This has to be a thicker paste so that it does not flow.
The coating achieved with these paintings is very strong. my 3 meter trough is so lined and now he goes in the second winter. ...................
Anyone can create a trough in this way. While you're afraid of the winter you can do bubble wrap against the inner sides."
Costs
A pack XPS € 44.50
3 tubes of adhesive € 36.00 for 4 troughs (2x100cm-1x125cm-1x175cm)
Long screws for extra pressure € 22.00 (you can reuse every time)
2 Portland cement € 10.00
Little peat and sand, and plastic on the floor. (Tea) towels cost?
The film takes too long ? just scroll to the next.
read more here :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8wSWiwm_WABUHdTN05Ub2VOcHM/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8wSWiwm_WABUHdTN05Ub2VOcHM/view)
and see this video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9gzHsrfkw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9gzHsrfkw)
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Jan has decided that his articles and videos are not enough - he's made an e-book of ideas for garden projects - read it here https://issuu.com/jantholhuijsen/docs/practical_projects_for_the_rockgard
Tremendous ideas to keep anyone busy - and great that Jan is following the SRGC idea of making things free to all whenever possible!
Thanks Jan!!
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What a fantastic resource for the budding rock/crevice gardener. Glad I found this SRGC site Maggi before I get too far into our project. Trying to avoid the pitfall that happens when expectations become resentments under construction.
:)
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Quickly make a few (small) troughs, see the YouTube video.
https://youtu.be/xeF3VN7AsB0 (https://youtu.be/xeF3VN7AsB0)
Anyone can do this and the price no more than a bag of concrete mix
Photos the troughs are ready to plant.
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Thank you Jan; this is excellent 8)
Do you find 18-19 cm the ideal depth, and how do you recommend treating the outer surface to make the trough look 'weathered' or natural as quickly as possible?
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Thank you Jan; this is excellent 8)
Do you find 18-19 cm the ideal depth, and how do you recommend treating the outer surface to make the trough look 'weathered' or natural as quickly as possible?
You can change the depth by placing the slats as a crevice and building higher ones. With these troughs it is raised to the center by 15 cm. To make the outside 'natural'. I do not attach such value to that. The sandstone troughs we had in Czech were 100-150 years old and were always in the stable. When we put them outside, the troughs with shadow got some mosaic growth, not in the sun. These troughs have a slanted side, so always a little shadow. Just put out and the look comes by itself.
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I had made some old stuff a mold. And traditionally made a trough.
90 - 35 - 22 cm.
Made of concrete mortar. This is very strong. No peat or other surcharges.
The inside is round. Original troughs made of sandstone were also around inside. This was because no food remains could be left in the corners.
This is also good for troughs filled with soil and plants. At freezing, the grunge freezes upwards, instead of sideways.
The original troughs also had no extra steel reinforcement. But had extra thickened walls. These are all benefits to be able to stand outside in the frost.
This concrete trough is also so made, without reinforcement, round inside, thick walls and no peat or other additives.
Of course he has to prove himself.
90 kg of mortar is used. One is enough, pffff. The lightweight troughs are easier to handle.
Also see: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8wSWiwm_WABZ29ub1cwWmRzNEU/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8wSWiwm_WABZ29ub1cwWmRzNEU/view?usp=sharing)
Or http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2017Sep281506621414IRG93.pdf (http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2017Sep281506621414IRG93.pdf)
[attachimg=5]
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The 7 lightweight troughs I made last weeks. All of them have been sold for a small price to rock planting enthusiasts. Members of the VRV and NRV. (I have enough myself)
It was fun to make them again. That's how you come through the winter.
The finish is improved again. The cement pudding has changed, there is now rough river sand through. The exterior is then coarser. Then smeared with cement / peat / clay mixture. This is to stimulate algae / moss.
If you want to make it, start now, nice to make in the winter. In the spring they are ready to plant.
Description https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8wSWiwm_WABZ29ub1cwWmRzNEU/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8wSWiwm_WABZ29ub1cwWmRzNEU/view?usp=sharing)
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Detail of the exterior
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
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The adjustment of the method is giving a very good rough finish, Jan.
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The following used (food delivery) polystyrene boxes are being offered on my local Freegle.
1 len 49cm Width 23cm Depth 13cm wall thickness 4cm
2 49cm 23cm 20cm 4cm
3 35cm 26cm 25cm 2cm
Any interest in my area? SL8. They are actually in HP14 I think. The height presumably includes the lid, so the bottom alone will be shorter my maybe 5cm or so.
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Just to point out that a lid can be glued onto a box and then a new opening cut in the top if a deeper trough is desired.
Glue to use is waterproof PVA.
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I’ve been reading my way through Ian’s past Bulb Logs, and really enjoying that beautiful garden. Thanks for taking time to create them, Ian!
As I searched around and read about his slab raised beds (thanks for the construction links, Maggi! http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=7850.msg214654#msg214654 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=7850.msg214654#msg214654) ) and these fishbox troughs, I started to wonder: could the two be combined, using polystyrene insulation boards?
I’m guessing the foam/concrete wouldn’t be structurally sound for a raised bed, but what about a large planter or something? Has anyone made something larger than a fish box?
I love concrete, but would love lighter-weight options than really large slabs, if it mght work!
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The largest trough I have made was using salmon sized boxes approx 850 x 550 x 150 but provided you get the concrete mixture correct there is no reason that you could not make them bigger.
The biggest objects I have made using cement and polystyrene was a series of standing stones for a garden the larg st was nearly 2m tall.
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Good to know — thanks, Ian!
If I try something large, I’ll report back here!
Kelly
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Kelly, the Northwestern chapter of the North American Rock Garden Society will have a free Styrotroff (StyrofoamTrough) Making demonstration at the Bellevue Botanical Garden on Thursday, July 12 from 7:30 pm. You are very welcome to come by!
https://www.nargsnw.org/single-post/2018/06/26/Styrotroff-StyrofoamTrough-Making-Workshop-by-Dale-Greer (https://www.nargsnw.org/single-post/2018/06/26/Styrotroff-StyrofoamTrough-Making-Workshop-by-Dale-Greer)
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Kelly, the Northwestern chapter of the North American Rock Garden Society will have a free Styrotroff (StyrofoamTrough) Making demonstration at the Bellevue Botanical Garden on Thursday, July 12 from 7:30 pm. You are very welcome to come by!
https://www.nargsnw.org/single-post/2018/06/26/Styrotroff-StyrofoamTrough-Making-Workshop-by-Dale-Greer (https://www.nargsnw.org/single-post/2018/06/26/Styrotroff-StyrofoamTrough-Making-Workshop-by-Dale-Greer)
Wow! Thanks for letting me know, Peppa — I’ll see if I can make it!
—Kelly
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Hope to see you there, Kelly! :)
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Thanks to Maggi, I found the links to Jan Tholhuijsen's styrofoam trough making downloads.
Can I ask and apologies as I'm sure this must have been asked before, what "ingredients" do UK based members use for Jan's "porridge mix", the one he coats the Styrofoam with after roughing the surface and what are the "ingredients" he uses in the mix to soak and coat the tea towels with.
It's my first attempt and I'm going for a smallish trough to start off with but I'd like to make as good a job of it as I can. Any help or advice would be most welcome.
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The bags of ready-mix cement are readily available in UK DIY stores, usually in 25kg bags. These are the same type Ian Young uses for his cement covered polystyrene troughs.
To make Jan's "porridge, we would make the cement mix more sloppy than usual - to allow for it soaking well into the cloths - and perhaps add some extra sand to make a rougher texture.
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Thanks for that Maggi, I really appreciate the help.
I had a quick look on the websites of the big DIY warehouses at sand and cement and there are so many different types. I'm not really used to ordering building materials and got a bit lost and unsure of what I needed to go out and buy. I'm OK with the Styrofoam as I use that quite often in my work as a photographer.
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If you have a look in Ian's Bulb Logs about making troughs, you'll find photos of the type of cement mix we use - I'll try and find it later for you if you can't locate it ....
Bulb Log Index : http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/index.pdf (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/index.pdf)
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Thanks Maggi, I'll try and find it.
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http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/020108/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/020108/log.html) and http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/170908/log.htmlgive (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/170908/log.htmlgive) you details - but to do what Jan does with the "porridge" you need to make the mix wetter.
See here for landscaping a trough : http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/081008/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/081008/log.html)
A reminder of Jan's trough making projects ...
https://issuu.com/jantholhuijsen/docs/troughs_in_the_rock_garden_e9e6ec6d2f7950 (https://issuu.com/jantholhuijsen/docs/troughs_in_the_rock_garden_e9e6ec6d2f7950)
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Thanks for all the help Maggi, really appreciated.
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Thanks for that Maggi, I really appreciate the help.
I had a quick look on the websites of the big DIY warehouses at sand and cement and there are so many different types. I'm not really used to ordering building materials and got a bit lost and unsure of what I needed to go out and buy. I'm OK with the Styrofoam as I use that quite often in my work as a photographer.
Good morning, Maggi and 'FiestaRed',
I hope it does not matter that I am also in the discussion.
In short what you should pay attention to.
Use only extruded polystyrene, or XPS. this is the strongest.(5 cm )
First make a bottom plate and put the sidewalls on it. This is stronger for the bearing capacity, when the trough is off the ground, on an elevation.
Use good outdoor mounting kit.
Coat the trough with a pure cement paste, this is good for the adhesion of the cloths soaked in cement.
Make porridge from pure cement, and soak the (tea) cloths. Start at an angle, so you make the corners stronger. Mind you, the (tea) cloths are the weaponry for the trough. Certainly in the winter with frost, pressure can come on.
So in this case you need a bag of Portland cement. (If you have cement left over, keep it in an airtight garbage bag or in sealed buckets so that it can not get damp air, otherwise it will harden.
When the trough is ready, you can smear the outside with a porridge of 1/3 cement, 1/3 peat and 1/3 crushed sand. This is to make the outside texture a bit coarse.
Here again the complete instruction, you can download in PDF.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8wSWiwm_WABZ29ub1cwWmRzNEU/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8wSWiwm_WABZ29ub1cwWmRzNEU/view?usp=sharing)
Small movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9gzHsrfkw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9gzHsrfkw)
Good luck.
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[attachimg=2]
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Thanks to both Maggi and Jan for all their help and advice, it's been a big help. Jan, thanks also for the email replies and of course you are most welcome to be a part of this post and really welcome to pass on your knowledge. I'm sure there will be others interested like me who have little or no idea how to make troughs using your method.
The polystyrene I have seen at my local branch of Wickes: https://www.wickes.co.uk/Kay-Metzeler-General-Purpose-Polystyrene-EPS70---2400mm-x-1200mm-x-50mm/p/210824#tab-details_content (https://www.wickes.co.uk/Kay-Metzeler-General-Purpose-Polystyrene-EPS70---2400mm-x-1200mm-x-50mm/p/210824#tab-details_content)
Thanks to all Jan's help, the only other question I have is do I let the cement mix set between the different stages? Apply the porridge to the bare polystyrene and let it set, apply the cloths and let them set and then finally add the cement, peat and sand mixture.
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Thanks to both Maggi and Jan for all their help and advice, it's been a big help. Jan, thanks also for the email replies and of course you are most welcome to be a part of this post and really welcome to pass on your knowledge. I'm sure there will be others interested like me who have little or no idea how to make troughs using your method.
The polystyrene I have seen at my local branch of Wickes: https://www.wickes.co.uk/Kay-Metzeler-General-Purpose-Polystyrene-EPS70---2400mm-x-1200mm-x-50mm/p/210824#tab-details_content (https://www.wickes.co.uk/Kay-Metzeler-General-Purpose-Polystyrene-EPS70---2400mm-x-1200mm-x-50mm/p/210824#tab-details_content)
Thanks to all Jan's help, the only other question I have is do I let the cement mix set between the different stages? Apply the porridge to the bare polystyrene and let it set, apply the cloths and let them set and then finally add the cement, peat and sand mixture.
Miki, the link to Wickes is from EPS, this is not so strong you have to have XPS. look here. http://www.soprema.co.uk/en/article/dossier-thematique/what-is-the-difference-between-xps-and-eps-insulation (http://www.soprema.co.uk/en/article/dossier-thematique/what-is-the-difference-between-xps-and-eps-insulation)
Polystyrene EPS70 - 2400mm x 1200mm x 50mm
Make everything rough with wire brush.
Make a porridge of pure cement and water so that you can apply it with a large brush. Let it dry overnight.
Make a porridge of (portland) cement again and soak the cloth so that it is saturated. If the cloth is soaked in it, it must retract well otherwise the porridge, too much as pasta.
Let it dry for one or two days and then you can edit the outside with the cement peat and crushed sand
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Thanks again for the help and advice Jan.
I have to admit I wasn't even aware that there were different types of polystyrene available. I'll take another look around to see what I can find.
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Miki, the link to Wickes is from EPS, this is not so strong you have to have XPS. look here. http://www.soprema.co.uk/en/article/dossier-thematique/what-is-the-difference-between-xps-and-eps-insulation (http://www.soprema.co.uk/en/article/dossier-thematique/what-is-the-difference-between-xps-and-eps-insulation)
Polystyrene EPS70 - 2400mm x 1200mm x 50mm
Hi Jan, after a few days searching locally for the Extruded Polystyrene, I can't find it anywhere and to buy online with the added delivery costs makes it quite expensive. Is it worth trying to make a trough with the locally sourced Expanded Polystyrene or would it break down to quickly?
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If you cannot find Jan's XPS sort then try to get the most densely textured polystyrene you can find. The closer the packing of the particles the stronger the material. This is why the denser types of boxes, fit for food use, are better than the looser compacted types of some polystyrene packing boxes that may be found for making troughs using the carve, texture and paint method.
Either type of box can be used for covering with cement for that method - but Jan's big troughs need the hardest wearing , more dense type available.
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The best place to find extruded polystyrene sheets is from a builders merchant, Travis Perkins, Jewson etc
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The best place to find extruded polystyrene sheets is from a builders merchant, Travis Perkins, Jewson etc
Thanks Neil, I'll get Google on to it.
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The best place to find extruded polystyrene sheets is from a builders merchant, Travis Perkins, Jewson etc
Thanks again Neil, I phoned both the Travis Perkins and Jewson branches in my area (Derbyshire) and although XPS Polystyrene is shown on their websites neither stock it or even had much of a clue what it was. I'll keep on searching, there must be some somewhere.
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They probably know it as insulation sheeting
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Thanks for all the help, I've finally managed to locate stocks of the XPS Polystyrene where I can buy in single sheets and any amount upwards.
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A bit more help if anyone can, myself and Jan have been having a conversation and it is becoming somewhat lost in the translation. I've been asking Jan what type of adhesive he uses when he bonds the sides and bottom of the XPS polystyrene he uses for his troughs.
During the translation, the adhesive becomes a "fixing kit". Can anyone help with the type of glue needed to join the XPS together? I know some adhesives will simply melt the XPS.
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Here is a link you may find useful.
http://portraitsofalpineplants.com/Troughs%20and%20Sinks.htm#bt4 (http://portraitsofalpineplants.com/Troughs%20and%20Sinks.htm#bt4)
Once open, click on the three following links:
Covering a glazed sink.
Covering a polystyrene box.
Making troughs in a mould.
Regarding fish boxes?
Earlier in this post mention is made of joining polystyrene sheets.
But why not just buy the ready made fish boxes?
From here:- https://www.jbpackaging.co.uk/polystyrene-boxes/25kg-standard-brx.html (https://www.jbpackaging.co.uk/polystyrene-boxes/25kg-standard-brx.html)
For about £7.80 each they can be delivered. 4 of 5 of these maybe slightly more costly than the polystyrene sheets but it certainly saves a lot of time for those who don’t want to bother bonding the polystyrene sheets together. . . . Its just a thought!
Three photos of my daughters (Gail) recently made (April I think) covered fish boxes.
And two views of a trough (about 23 years old) made from the plywood mould,
which was recently refurbished by my daughter and planted up at the same time as the fish boxes mentioned above.
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Continued.......
Second photo of trough made from plywood box mould.
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Thanks for the post John, some great information.
As has been mentioned before, the fish box idea is probably the easiest. The main reason I was asking about bonding polystyrene panels is that I'd like to make troughs of a given size, to fit a certain area of my garden and cutting and bonding the polystyrene sheet seems to be the only way I can do this.
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Waterproof PVA Glue can be used on the polystyrene.
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PVA can be added to a cement mortar mix to give the mix a) slightly better waterproofing qualities and b) advanced adhesion to the surface it is applied to. Painting a coat of PVA on the surface before the cement mortar is applied can even further increase this adhesion.
To use in sand and cement, a mixture of 2 parts PVA to 1 part water is general. Tip the PVA in the water and mix as normal. PVA dries to a colourless finish and will not react with any other surface preparation or finish. 8)
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Maggi, John, thanks for the help. Really appreciated.
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I'd just to add a big thank you to all who helped with my many questions about the foam troughs.
I'm now at what Jan calls the second stage in that I have added the cloths soaked in the cement mix and now waiting for them to harden off. When they're dry, I'll then add the final coat of the cement, sand and moss peat mix. The extruded foam I bought by the sheet from a local Insulation Supplier, the glue for the foam was waterproof PVA but I mistakenly bought a large five litre bottle and so far, having glued up two 60 x 40cm troughs have used only the smallest fraction of the bottle.
Although the fish box method is a brilliant idea, buying the foam by the sheet has allowed me to make the troughs to the exact size I wanted to fit a certain area of my garden.
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Another use for fish boxes ;-)
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/cold-weather-cat-shelters-1.4862499 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/cold-weather-cat-shelters-1.4862499)
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An old link, but still interesting ...
https://www.pacifichorticulture.org/trough-gardening/?fbclid=IwAR2LFm_F1tHUBQAcqCLSf-yrbQGYoox9fZKx9TZzWqY1TrH5YZwpTUw-HT0 (https://www.pacifichorticulture.org/trough-gardening/?fbclid=IwAR2LFm_F1tHUBQAcqCLSf-yrbQGYoox9fZKx9TZzWqY1TrH5YZwpTUw-HT0)
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I forgot to mention that the ARCHIVE button that appears at the top of the last link is very useful to gain access to many wonderful magazines/journals ... an excellent resource.