Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: Rafa on September 26, 2007, 07:49:45 PM
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Hello,
Here the results of Iris sp#685 Mongolia/Jurasek, I have obtained 100% success after 2 weeks!
All the best.
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Excellent news, Rafa. Now you will have the difficult duty of raising these fine children! Where/ how will you overwinter the seedlings?
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I have builded a big bulbframe against the granit wall of the house. This wall is very well situated and it receives the sun all the day. I will also buuild a big green house agaisnt another wall. I hope it will be enought :-\
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That sounds a good plan. We have granite walls here in Aberdeen, too ! 8) But not where we have built the frames!! :-[
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This is another success with Iris paradoxa f. mirabilis after 3 weeks!!
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Rafa, I do hope that seeing this success of yours, along with the other posts/threads about seed raising, will encourage everyone to have a go at raising plants from seed. It amazes me how often someone will say tell us that they do not grow from seed, they only buy plants.....what pleasure they are depriving themselves of! I know nurserymen need to make a living, lord knows some of my best friends are nurserymen ( and women!) and most of us are quite incapable of NOT buying plants, but to forego the joys of seeing the seedlings sprouting and giving you that wonderful promise of new plants to enjoy, why would anyone not want to try sowing some plant seeds ?
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Well done Rafa. 100% success is great for encouraging you to go on with iris seeds!
Can you tell me why you have germinated these in the open rather than in a pot please? And how are you going to treat them, now that they've sprouted.
The I. paradoxa v. mirabile look very special. I remember seeing it in flower at a show in the northern spring (a picture of it I mean). Truly a magnificent or miraculous plant. I wish you every success with growing it. Was that seed from Jurasek as well?
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Hello Lesley,
I have sown Jurasek seeds in humid vermiculate in little open bags and then I have put in the fridge.
Iris paradoxa f. mirabilis comes from Archibald's. I have cut the aril and put its in the fridge directly in that pot with fungicide. I think this method is good to all Iris speces and many other Iridaceas.
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So is this what you call "forced germination method?"
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Sounds like very interesting methods - and quite new to me ??? - I smell an interesting subject for our beloved BD.... ;D
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That is an excellent suggestion, Luc... I will encourage the BD in this experiment... now, if you could all please send nice plump iris seeds.... ? ::) 8)
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Will do, in the summer.
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I wouldn't mind some of these nice plump seeds either ::) ??
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I have also taken to sowing some of my seed directly in to perlite. Last year I sowed my trillium seed on Kitchen paper before putting them in the fridge, after they germinated I pricked most out into compost, but some into perlite. The ones in perlite grew twice as fast producing 2 roots, later in the summer I pricked them out into compost in large polystyrene boxes and they even have the makings of 2 (tiny)leaves and a good mini tuber now. This year I have sown them directly into perlite in plastic takeway containers hopefully this will eliminate the need for the first pricking out.
I have also sown nomocharis and Lily seed which germinate quickly in perlite in takeaway containers, I find it difficult to stop the young seedlings getting frosted during the winter, this way I can bring them inside better. I haven't pt the lids on.
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Susan, how are you regulating the moisture content in the perlite in such flat, open boxes? I'd have thought they would dry out very quickly? So would the seedlings stay all winter in the boxes? At what temperatures? ???
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Maggie, they are deeper than they look, they have 2 in. of perlitie in them (I bought the containers, I don't eat that many takeaways). There are no holes in them and a little water in the bottom of them, I also mist them. They are in the spare room so unless I have visitor there is no heating on, I think I will buy a lamp for them to prevent them getting drawn. Time will tell if I am sucessful, I will leave them in the boxes until the last spring frosts have passed, by then they should have 1 or 2 true leaves, then prick them out into Polystyrene fish boxes and leave them there for 2-3 years until they are saleable size. Previously I have always had sucess pricking them out at this stage, it was getting them through the winter/spring after they had germinated that was the problem.
I have also used these containers with compost and the lids on for Primulas and mecs to get them started, they are so subseptible to drying out as they germinate.
By the way I have a nice nivalid primula (grown for seed this year by this meathod) sending up a pale lemon flower, if it developes good enough for a photo I will post it for ID
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I bought the containers, I don't eat that many takeaways
That's cos you live too far from the Takeaway shop! We buy these containers to send bulbs by post, very useful, sturdy and not too expensive... well, cheaper than the Takeaway, that's for sure!
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Maggi,
Yes, but not as tasty!! ;D
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But better for you health m' lad! ;D
Susan, were these Trillium seeds from your own garden or bought in from somewhere? I ask because I'm having NO JOY AT ALL, in getting Trillium seeds to germinate, from other sources, even if very fresh.
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Lesley,
This year we obviously had the right conditions for Trillium germination. I have had some germination each year, but this year I had a whole heap sown in 2003 and 2004 all germinate about a month to 6 weeks ago. The 2003 in particular I left there with a vague hope of one day getting a couple germinate, but I'm getting what must be pretty much full germination. Also at the same time were seed sown in the last couple of years as well. A whole heap of these have been from the wonderful people here in the SRGC. I don't know what particular difference this year was to the last few years, except that we had a lot of rain in June, then very little since. In June they were touting that it was going to be well above average for rainfall this spring etc, then someone obviously turned the tap off. <sigh> The other possibility is that I moved a shadehouse to the area where I have my sown seed. It might have kept them moister over late summer, but I have always kept them damp during summer anyway. They are still in exactly the same place, they just have an "official" shadehouse over them instead of a sheet of shade cloth suspended on poles over the top of them. Personally I don't think that is the difference, but I thought it worth mentioning for fullness of conditions.
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Lesley, They were from my own seed, I soaked them in peroxide first as detailed in the Trillium book by Fred Case.
Some were mistakenly allowed to dry but they still germinated. If you are sowing them outside you have to watch they don't get frosted once they start to germinate, they can sit partially germinated for weeks/months and I find they are very vunerable to frost/drying out at this stage. That is why I am now doing them inside. I leave them in the fridge til Nov (4 months) then bring them into the house. They took another couple of months until they germinated after which I pricked them out as they had started to get mould, as I said the ones pricked out into perlite grew best. A good website to check out is www.trilliumresearch.org (http://www.trilliumresearch.org). I would also give them a bit of protection for the first year till the tubers are big enough to withstand frosts.
I don't get any seed from elsewhere so can't tell if it would work for other peoples seed.
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These methods are almost the same as me germinating seeds in kitchen paper towel in a plastic bag
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Well, I don't seem to be doing anything radically wrong. I'll keep them cool and damp and go on waiting. I hope they germinate before I die :-X :-\ :'( ???
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Well, sorry for the delay in replay the Forced Germination method that you could find in the article of Elm Jensen in the Aril Society International 2005 Yearbook.
I will try to resume the steps:
1. Hydratation: Put the seeds 4 or 5 days in water with systemic fungicide.
2. Cut the aril (if it's an arilated species), the skin and a little layer to discover the embryo
3. Put the seeds in humid perlite or vermiculate in little plastic bags.
4. After 2 or 3 weeks I put the seeds directly in pots with systemic fungicide, outdoors in a frost free place.
My recomendation:
1. Use perlite because you can see better the seeds in a white background.
2. Use rigid recipient as the embrios are very delicate and it could be broken in a plastic bag.
3. Put the seeds in pots as soon as possible (2 weeks in many species).
The seed have to be cutted like in the picture.
I had succeded in all my experiments even with other Iridaceas like Tigridias and Neomaricas. I have seen that this technique is also possible in Arum species and others. Is almost impossible to be unsuccessful with this method, because the seeds hasn’t other way than germinate or die
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Clear and helpful advice, Rafa, many thanks.
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Thank you for that method Rafa. On a recent visit to a friend's garden I was sent home with several different iris seed pods, mostly tall bearded types I think? I've had them soaking a couple of days and am now undergoing the tedious job of exposing the embryo. Hmm, this is no different than how I treat clivia seed, except that clivia are bigger and easier to handle. So far so good. I've never had a whole lot of luck with iris seed so maybe this will work for me as well.
Maggi and Luc if you'd like some fresh iris seeds to try with, I have loads. However it's all from tall bearded types that I grow. Pictures below.
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Very clear and helpful Rafa - Thanks. I will try the hydration method on Crocus michelsonii. It has a reputation for being difficult to germinate. Perhaps no coincidence that it has a thick wrinkly seed coat like the iris seeds you show. Most crocus have a smooth seed coat and germinate quite easily.
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As do most irises. It's the oncos and junos that give problems.
I'm going to try this with my recalcitrant trillium seed. Four years now and not a sausage up - let alone a trillium! The seeds still seem hard and viable so worth a try.
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I just mailed the SRGC seed exchange some iris seeds I collected in the Siskiyous,
so thought I would show the flowers they came from. I didn't get back to collect
the seeds until a year and a half from when I photographed them, and by
then it was so late in the season that I had to put on my reading glasses,
search among the stones and moss, and collect the seeds with tweezers.
The yellow ones are pure innominata, from near Agness in southern Oregon.
The shades of purple ones are from Del Norte county in northern California.
There is disagreement as to whether they are a species (Iris thompsoni),
a southern version of I. innominata, or a stabilized natural hybrid between
innominata from mountains and douglasiana from the seashore, which can
be called I. X thompsoni.
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Gotta love the good old Pacific Coast Iris (I think they're designated PCN or something aren't they?) and the species they are derived from. Such a wonderful show for so little work. I just love them!! Nice to see the wild forms Diane.
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:o :o :o
Many thanks for this fantastic pictures Dian. Definitively I will choose this species in SRGC seedlist.
Thanks you!!
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Another Pacific Coast Iris species, which was included in last year's seed list, is Iris tenax. I think I have read that this is the hardiest of the Pacific Coast iris. We are lucky to have it growing wild in prairies and woodlands around the Willamette Valley, and fairly commonly at that (and my apologies for not having collected any seed for this year's exchange!)
Here is a photo taken several years ago of a plant in the wild. The flower color can vary in the wild from light purple to a fairly dark purple as shown here. I have it growing in my garden in rather bright shade, where it gets no summer watering.
Ed
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Suberb plant in the wild, Ed.... we'll be holding you to the seed collection next year!
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I like that one (but I say that about all Irises! ;D )
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That is the best wild clump I have seen, Ed.
There is a small area near Hagg Lake, Oregon, west of Portland,
where the tenax are yellow. Originally they
had been growing along a stream. I followed the directions
in Victor Cohen's 1967 British Iris Society booklet, ‘A Guide
to the Pacific Coast Irises’ but discovered that the stream had
been dammed since he made his trip, and the area where the iris
had been growing now had motor boats pulling water skiers.
Fortunately, members of SPCNI (Society for Pacific Coast Native
Iris) had moved the iris, so they are still growing close to where
they had originally been.
This picture was taken May 10, 2006.
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I believe Diane that your nice photo of the yellow Iris tenax from near Hagg Lake is Iris tenax var. gormanii. I understand that a few additional populations have recently been found, but it is still a very local variety. I haven't had a chance to see it myself but according to a recent paper, it differs from typixcal I. tenax not just in the yellow flower color but also in size or shape of bracts, sepals, and style crests.
To confuse the picture even more, there are places in the Oregon Coast Range west of Portland where plants of Iris tenax var. tenax have flowers ranging from purple to lavender to cream to even white. However, these are considered color forms of I. tenax since the flower morphology is (shape, size, etc.) does not differ from typical I. tenax.
Presumably any seed donations labeled "Iris tenax" are most likely the purple or lavender form, but you never know for sure what you will get when the plants come in to bloom!
-Ed
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I was very interested in Rafa and Susan's sowing methods at the beginning of this thread and, in the event of my getting the Iris seed I have requested from the Seed Exchange I would like to give it a try. My normal, and unscientifiic, sowing method has been the very simple 'sow'em on receipt, cover 'em with grit, and stick 'em outside method' with some successes and some failures. My question is, is there an optimum time of the year to try this 'new' method or is it worth trying 'on receipt'?
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An up date on my nomocharis seed mentioned earlier in the thread. They are still doing well with most starting to put up their first true leaf.
The trilliums have been out of the fridge since Nov and although not germinating yet the seed still looks plump and well.
I will keep you posted.
Lesley I got some trillium seed from Kristal which is now spending time in the fridge, they will prob come into the house after new year. This is the first seed I have got from outside sources in a long time I will let you know if I have sucess.
Susan
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David,
I will let Rafa answer about the Iris seed I haven't tried it with them. I have just received some Juno seed and wasn't too sure about what to do with it. I ended up sowing it in perlite in the house.
Rafa, What have you tried with junos?
One advantage of keeping things in the house is that no critters can get to it (hopefully) although I don't know where everyone will sit for christmas lunch.
Susan
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Hello,
Be careful with Junos, this technique is not very good to them. I suggest in Junos to use GA3 (Giberelic Acid) and patience. The experiments I did with Juno seeds and forced germination were unsuccesful, most of them were atacked by fungus after two weeks. I think I will try another experiment with Junos and forced germination, let me explain better, I have to translate!!
David, you could try this method in late september or in late winter,
All the best,
rafa
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Thank you Rafa
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Dear Rafa,
here I want to show the first results of my experiance with embryotic culture of Junos(I. rosenbachiana):
embryo seperated and put on medium in flask: 19.07.2007
exflask and pict taken: 02.01.2008
nice, small tubers, approx. the size of +/- 1 year old seedlings of pot culture
Sadly, but oncos don`t grow as easy as Junos,
best Gerhard
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I've been sowing seed in damp vermiculite for a number of years now. Lots of perennials seem to enjoy this medium for germination. And the best part was that the seeds were easy to get out of it and prick out too. I have used this combined with silver sand dampened for many years to propagate my diascias and many other cuttings. I decided to mix the silver sand in because I thought the roots would be stronger doing it this way, with a bit of resistance whilst forming. I had before tried cuttings in water, but opted for this method as a preferred way because the roots do seem stronger. It is also good for me to do cuttings this way because I can post them off to people I swap diascias with, its lighter for postage and easier to transport. So the seed sowing has been done this method out of sheer laziness really. I buy the trays with 40 pots in them and use those inside a plastic tray, and keep a little water in the bottom at all times, so they don't dry out.
for my seed sowing I usually keep the trays in my conservatory so they are out of the cold but not warm either (its unheated), and I do it in January/Feb on the whole. One year I kept a record of which seeds germinated and when etc too, but I lost the details long ago. However, I've not been working with bulb seeds or with alpines so this may not work for them, so the seed I got this year has been put in the fridge until I decide its time to sow.
I think this year, (because I'm sowing more alpines and bulb seeds, and after reading posts and the bulb log), I am going to experiment with a mix of the vermiculite, mole hill soil, builders sand and chick grit (something I found them using at Howick to germinate their various wild collected seed) to see if that makes any difference. Now I have to decide whether to keep them outside or inside, (I could do either). What do people think? I can't be bothered to sort the seed into this sort and that, they'll all have to cope with the same method.
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Gerhard, sorry I haven't seen your message. I think that with your lab you have better conditions to have success with Junos than with GA3, obviously your results are splendid. Maybe with oncos, regelias, pogons it is more easy to use forced germination. This is Iris darwasica sown in october after 3 weeks in the fridge. I think it is growing even the flower (it is too fat) but only in 8 months!?
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Rafa :o - I think this is a fantastic result! :D
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Here two pics of in embryo - culture grown Oncos - one taken at 31 th of December 2007, the second shows one of the seedlings yesterday.
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Fascinating Hans ! :o
You seem to know how to handle them... ;D
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Hans, could you please give a little more detail on what you did to the seed before the test tube stage, and also on the liquid in the test tube. This kind of work I find fascinating but being very much a non-scientist I find it also difficult to understand.
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Luc, I do my best ;)
David – in theory its quiet easy and similar in sowing orchids.
In the case of Iris you have to isolate the embryo of the endosperm put it on the nutrient enriched Agar and keep it by something more than 20 C – after a few days you see first growing of the embryos.
Ok – now the “buts” – you need to keep always sterile conditions, many embryos do not start to grow – whyever, transplanting them from the test tubes to soil can be tricky as they do not seem as strong as seedlings which have kept their endosperm and germinated naturally.
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Hans, thank you for your very clear information. I really think I would fail at the first stage and am very likely to cut off the end of my finger in trying to get at the embryo! Maybe I am better trying seed in moist perlite in the fridge as there would be much less chance of damage to me! ;D
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Great work Hans, very it's very representative :o
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Iris planifolia(?) from Nigel Service seed in 2002 - very early it seems
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Pat, this is not bad in just 6 years from sowing to get a flower on a Juno!
I have sown some species seed, but germination in general was not very high - lets see how long I have to wait with these ::) I will try other by embryo culture.
Your Arilpatch is great - are this all Oncos? :o
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Hans,
I did have flowers last year too on this Iris planifolia if that is what it is. It is the first iris to flower for me - this is what I meant by early.
Yes they are all arils - well aril species crossed so they are aril species hybrids mostly with some straight species in there too. I have a few more patches too but these two looked the best. Have had to weed out a Romulea sp. that it a plaque here in the paddocks - but the galahs, Rosella parrots and the bantams like the bulbs which is good. They all come in after I leave a patch to eat the bulbs which I, in my messy way, leave where I toss them until I have a cleanup as I know that they will eat the bulbs and then I only have the thin long leaves to rake up.
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Dear Friends
I need your suggestions for onco seeds germination. I have received a few seeds from the ASI seed exchange and I have treated with the forced germination method i.e. rehydratation, cutting of the aril to expose the embryo and cold treatment. A low percentage of seeds have sprouted a short "root" but now after more than two months in the fridge they are not growing anymore; only a couple of them show elongation of the "root" and development of a triangular appendix. What could I do now?
Another question is about fresh seeds. I have a couple of arilbred irises with developing seed pods and I hope to get some seeds. Which is the best treatment for these seeds ?
Sincerely
Roberto
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I suggest you to put growing seeds in new vermiculate or perlita and wait another week. After that I put the plant in pots or better directly in the bulb frame.
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Roberto,
I would put the seeds into some seed pots and just wait. I took my seeds out of the fridge after a couple of months and tipped the lot - vermiculite and seeds straight onto the top of my seed raising mix (separate batches of course) and then put a layer of gravel over the top - then I wait. Nothing much has happened as we are going into winter but when the warmer weather comes I expect seedlings will start to appear.
By the way a couple of days ago I thought I would rake away all the leaf litter over the original 1989 patch where I grew my first lot of arils seeds and I found a seedling. It joins the other seedling that sprouted a few years ago nearby. I have an old planting plan but I might have better luck in identifying it if I move it in summber into a more open positions - the trees have grown and shaded much of that area now. I thought I had moved all the arils in the early 90's but as I do not separate any seedlings from their seed siblings I guess I do get germination over a number of years.
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Thank you Rafa and Pat for reply.
My short experience with oncos seeds has been done always with dried seeds.
I would like to know if sowing fresh seeds gives a higher germination rate. If I sow fresh seeds now will they germinate next spring? The aril appendix should be left on fresh sown seeds?
Further details from your experience would be of great help to me.
Roberto
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Roberto I know that some of the ASI members have grown from fresh seed with success but so far I haven't tried it. By the time I think about it they have dried out and we are going into summer which is when I would rather not have young seedlings to water. I plant my dried but soaked seed in autumn so that once I start getting germination in spring I can plant them out and they get a little established before the onslaught of summer hits. Plus it is such a busy time of the year when the seeds start developing that I haven't the extra time for them.
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I am started this last week to cut Onco and Regelia seeds. Each line is an species and I draw in a paper the distribution with the names.
Some of them, specially I. paradoxa's are very quikcly!
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Looks very promising, Rafa!
I wish you good luck :)
Do you have any space left in the refrigerator for food? ;D
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Christmas cake - but MUCH better!
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Rafa I sure hope a cat does not get in to scratch!!!
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Rafa, wish you best luck with the seeds! Looks great.
Here also the first seeds of this years harvest are in the testtubes.
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Hello,
I was very interested in Rafa's way for aril seeds.
Unfortunatly, I already have sown all my onco seeds 3 weeks ago, after soaking, leaving the pots outdoor.
Do you think I should remove them to try to cut them ?
Many thank's for help,
best,
Fred
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Sharon McAllister in her last article, mentioned that she use "forced germination" as a last opption, because you could lost all if you haven't a good steril medium. Certenly, this method is very agresive, like embryo culture... Hans and I could tell you many examples of succes and non success using the same proceedings, fungicides etc...
I recommend you to wait one month or so. If nothing happen, maybe you can retire the aril and the sking, and wait another month. If you dont have any result cut the layer to discover the embryo and put them in the fridge in humid perlite. I don't recomend Vermiculite after a great dissaster ;)
Diane Whitehead did an experiment with Iris acutiloba subsp. lineolata very intereting, I think is in the second page or so..
Which species are you growing?
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Hello, Fred ( Bulbissme).... welcome to the Forum! Good luck with your Iris seeds
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Many Thank's to you !
I'll wait... ::)
I'm growing the following species, all in pots in bulb frame with polycarbonat cover
Iris acutiloba ssp. lineolata
Iris assadiana
Iris damascena
Iris iberica ssp. elegantissima
Iris iberica ssp. lycotis
Iris kirkwoodii ssp. kirkwoodii var. macropetala
Iris paradoxa
Iris paradoxa
Iris paradoxa ssp. paradoxa
Iris paradoxa var. choschap
Iris sofarana subsp. kasruwana
Iris sprengeri
Iris acutiloba
Iris auranitica
Iris bostrensis
Iris gatesii
and I sow this automn :
Iris barnumae
Iris meda
Iris sari
Iris darwasica
Iris barnumae ssp. urmiensis
I'll keep you infrmed about the seed, and congratulation for this forum !
Maggy, like another french friend ( Biodiversité ) The Yan YOUNG blog is my internet start page :) ;D
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Hello Fred, and welcome from me too. What type and size of pot do you grow your Irises in please?
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OoH, Fred, that is great to know... Ian will be delighted to learn this, Thank you! :-*
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Half of the species are in 12x12x12 cm plastic pots, the other ones in 12x12x20 ou 16x16x23 cm plastic pots.
Soil is 90% of gravel with 10% loam + some potassium and bone meal.
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Fred, many thanks for that.
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wow, you grow most of Mayr plants! good luck with the seeds!
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You're right Rafa, most of them comes from Mayr, seeds from Archibald, and some from other various sources. ;)
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I second Rafa's WOW Fred. You must have one of the largest collections of aril species.
Welcome to this forum
Pat T
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Hello Fred,
welcome to this great forum.
If I have very few seeds I normally let them germinate naturally, it will need more time ( sometimes there is some germination the first autumn) - but you do not have the risk to loose them.
Also when I should have more seeds of a species and use other germinationmethods I always sow about 5 seeds in a pot as a backup.
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Great !
many thank's to all of you for help.
I'll leave my seeds in their pots, but as I still have I. barnumae to seed, I'll try half in pot, half with cutting ;D
Wait... and see !
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Hello Fred,
this just as an example for a "backup", the photo I took today.
I sow 6 seeds in october 2006 - four of them germinated in autumn 2007. the embryo culture of six other seeds failed and I lost them - and so I am glad I have sown half of the seeds in pots - i think the left two seeds still will germinate.
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I aslo had a big disaster this year with my seeds experiments, and I lost most of them.... I enclose pictures from John Lonsdale to show how to germinate correctly, not like me!!! >:( :-[ :'( :-[ ;D ;D ;D
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more pics
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Oh God!!!
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Very impressive, Rafa. This year was my first to try iris seed, and one or two germinated, but nothing like this. Wow.
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rafa,
your pictures are my dream,
this one is my reality .... :-[
(http://i64.servimg.com/u/f64/11/84/35/03/iris_s10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=327&u=11843503)
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A bit of background to the images that Rafa kindly posted.
The seeds are all Onco pure species from a variety of sources and most have been refrigerated since I got them – sometime between late last fall and this summer. Seeds were:
1) Soaked for 4 days in water, sterilized and cut on September 3rd
2) Refrigerated at 4ºC in Perlite in bags until September 21st
3) Kept in the dark at about 16ºC until September 27th. This was the date the pictures of the germinated seeds in the bags were taken.
4) On September 27th each seed was placed into individual cells in the trays you see. Every seed was sown, even if the embryo was very short or not yet visible. Most were 72 cells per tray; the one shown is 60 cells per tray. Each cell contains compost (50:50 BioComp BC5: Perlite) up to about 1cm below the surface. The seeds were ‘sown’ onto the surface of a 1cm layer of sterilized coarse sand on top of the compost and then covered with a 3mm layer of granite grit, put in the greenhouse in filtered light and soaked from overhead with a sprinkler. They were then kept moist.
Pictures 153, 154 & 157 were taken on October 5th. The first green shoots had appeared 3 days after ‘sowing’. The other pictures of the trays were taken on October 17th or so, nearly 3 weeks after sowing. None of the seedlings have been fed yet, but I’ll start weak liquid feeding in early spring when they wake up after their winter ‘dormancy’. There are still a good number of seeds which are making leaves and are not quite visible in the photos. Based on what I see now I expect to get plants from at least 65% of the seeds I originally cut – about 350 seedlings from 550 sown, so far.
The other pictures are of more mature plants, including many seedlings that were germinated last year and were potted up into 6cm or 10cm pots in late September.
Last year I left the germinated seeds in the bags longer, where they are more prone to fungal and bacterial disease, especially if they are continually being opened and closed.
Best,
J.
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John, thank very much you for posting this valuable information. ;)
You have precisely mentioned one of the possible causes of my failure this year, I left the plastic box opened many times to get rid of the excesive moisture of the Vermiculite (which retains a lot of moisture >:().
I definitively won't use Vermiculite anymore, and I will keep using Perlite, like I did last year as it gave such good results.
As I told you in my last e-mail, in spite of your good advice it seems that it was all too late and everything was contaminated... just 5 or 6 seeds survived. ::)
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Oh God!!!
Lesley,
That pretty much summed up what I was thinking too. Where would they all go when they grew on!? :o And then reading some of the names a green haze started to descend.... some treasures in there, that is for sure. John, that is some set up. Well done!! 8)
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John, it is fascinating to see your results of forced germiation - I doubt it can be done in a better way! :D
This pictures animate me to try it this way - even if I think the pictures 6,7 and 8 of rafas first mail do not show results of FG of this year ;).
Fred - even it is fantastic to get many seedlings in a short period of time by using embryo culture or forced germination - the losses I have are (still ::)) much higher than in using natural germination - you just may need (sometimes a lot of) pacience... ::)
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John what a fantastic system you have - you have certainly mastered the art of germination. So glad that Rafa posted your photos and you outlined the method you used. I will definitely be trying your method next season. Your excellent presentation should be included in the next ASI Yearbook. It might also entice some SGRC forum members to grow arils and maybe join the ASI. If we can get more members who can grow the aril species there will be much more likelihood of a "backup" of sorts for some of the species.
Pat T
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This is precisely the sort of photo record and info that is fantastic to see..... to assist and inspire others to get sowing and growing... thanks to Rafa and John!! :-*
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So much skill and knowledge gathered in this little thread !! :o
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to show this Rafa and John !
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More fantastic pictures, this time, from my friend Jim kee, an expert Iris grower.
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Rafa
I'm still having a shock from the photos you have sent from J. Lonsdale ...
It seems that we grow our plants The Mediterranean way: pots on one side of the garden, labels on the other side... ;) :-\ :-\
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John's pictures undoubtedly give us a wonderful lesson, superbly illustrated then explained in text. For the majority of us however, they ignore a basic fact - we have no source of such fabulous seed in the first place. :'( :'( :'(
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Pat - indeed, I have emailed Thomas Fietz and he will include photos and some text in the next ASI yearbook. I think Jim Waddick is also going to include something with the seed distribution of SIGNA. It's good to hear from you - I've been meaning to contact you for years!
Lesley - not sure what you mean by "For the majority of us however, they ignore a basic fact - we have no source of such fabulous seed in the first place." At least 75% of the seeds sown in this batch came from commercial sources through regular channels (i.e. I bought them with money) who ship world-wide, or if they don't ship directly to NZ would certainly ship to someone who could forward legally to you. I have no idea which species might or might not be importable in NZ/AUS, but I'm assuming the NZ/AUS contingent are not those you are referring to as the majority.
Hans - you are right that a number of plants pictured are certainly not a year old. In fact looking at the pictures, most are not. I must have deleted the images of the year-old elegantissima and barnumae plants before mailing them to Rafa - so ignore that bit of my message! Sorry for the misleading information.
Rafa - you are right that fungal/bacterial contamination of the seeds whilst germinating is the biggest problem. In addition to sterilizing everything as best as possible, it is important to keep the seeds as unexposed to contamination (air) as possible while they are 'cooking'. I'm convinced the biggest source of fungal contamination is the seeds themselves and sterilizing their coats is the best way to succeed. I currently use a peroxide-based sterilant but would like to use bleach also - but I am not sure what concentration or exposure time to use. I suppose the parameters worked out for orchid seed would work well - and if it doesn't damage tiny orchid seeds then it is hardly likely to hurt the relatively massive Onco seeds! Does anyone have any idea what the optimum parameters might be for bleaching seeds?
Best,
J.
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John, that's good news about your commercial sources. I assumed many were seeds from your own plants. We are able to import quite an extensive list of oncos/regelias (and junos) so now you have me fired up. Would you name those sources please? either here or privately if you prefer?
As for the money aspect, I'm very happy to ignore the phone bill, the power bill and the fact that the dentist is seeing me more than I'm comfortable with, lately. Who needs them?
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John,
I had a quick look at your website and it is stunning. I like the choice of colours used - makes the photos stand out so well. Good to see so many angles of different species too. Did you do the website yourself?
The last of the arils are in flower - the lortetii/samariae clan - have not had time to photograph anything at the moment. I have an open garden on Saturday and my nose has been into pulling weeds, mowing and trying to generally tidy up.
Pat
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Does anyone have any idea what the optimum parameters might be for bleaching seeds?
Hello John,
i use a concentration of 20 -25% of bleach for preparing the seeds for embryo culture - soaking them for about half hour. I am not sure if half hour is enough for Forced germination as all the attempts in a combinations of FG and EC failed finally because of fungi infections (I supose the seedcoat was not desinfected completly).
An other possibility is to tip the seeds in alcohol and burn them - i personally prefer bleach.
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Lesley - regarding commercial sources for Onco seeds, you can try Jim Archibald (a dozen or so listed in the current list), Josef Mayr (a dozen or more listed this summer, a few still on his web site), Vlastimil Pilous, Vojtec Holubec and Jan Jilek (these three are sporadic for Oncos but have good seeds of other bulbs as well). Seeds are also occasionally available through Species Iris Group of North America and the Aril Society International, and possibly other society exchanges as well
best,
John.
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Thank you John. I've had juno seed from Pilous and Jilek with some success and oncos from Archibald with nary a one germinated in 20 odd years, but then, I've been sowing them as "ordinary" seeds, not in the very specific conditions as illustrated above. Time for another try I guess.
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First Iris kirkwoodii showing signs of germination 16 days after cutting :
(http://i64.servimg.com/u/f64/11/84/35/03/iris_k11.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=402&u=11843503)
(http://i64.servimg.com/u/f64/11/84/35/03/iris_k12.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=403&u=11843503)
All sp with cutted embryo are germinating, others are still waiting for... scalpel ?? ;D
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Now to get some seed :)
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Very good Fred. I think I see in second picture embryo is cut? in that case it will never germinate.
John Lonsdale has notice that also it is important to avoid exposition to the air. It is better to keep the seeds into the bag and to not open it until the embryo make the levae and root.
good luck with this seeds and keeping posting your results please.
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I'm really interested in trying this method of germinating. Is there an article anywhere showing exactly where and how to cut the seed? Sorry if I missed it somewhere
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Diane,
I found this article helpful http://www.dils.dk/dk-pages/readarticle.php?article_id=11 (http://www.dils.dk/dk-pages/readarticle.php?article_id=11) I didn't follow it exactly but I have got I. kirkwoodii and I. aucheri alba germinated so far (10 days from sowing) 2 packets have rotted but the others look okay although they haven't done anything. Still hopeful.
Susan
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Thanks for this link. It explains - and shows - everything so very clearly. I've printed it out and will hope for some results with seed recently ordered, of arils.
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Diane,
I found this article helpful http://www.dils.dk/dk-pages/readarticle.php?article_id=11 (http://www.dils.dk/dk-pages/readarticle.php?article_id=11) I didn't follow it exactly but I have got I. kirkwoodii and I. aucheri alba germinated so far (10 days from sowing) 2 packets have rotted but the others look okay although they haven't done anything. Still hopeful.
Susan
Thanks for this, Susan, very helpful.
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Last January, I described how I soaked Iris lineolata seeds in bleach
(the same dilution I use for bleaching fabric) for 24 hours,
then in plain water for another 12 hours. I kept the sown seeds in a
warm room and had germination within a month.
I have four seedlings, now 12 cm high. I have just repotted them -
they need deep pots as their roots are very long.
I removed the seedcoats from half of the seeds. Two of those seven
seeds rotted quickly, and the remaining five are still firm and
ungerminated one year later. They have been outside through warm
and cold weather.
The original messages at:
Specific Families and Genera > Iris > Onco from seed
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1236.msg28021#msg28021
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How important is it to have fresh seed? That's the hardest thing to achieve
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Rafa,
how can you manage to cut the embryo without cutting it ???
If you need to see it when cutting, it means the tip of the embryo will be cutted. ???
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In French,
Fred, tu coup la moitié, très peu et tu tire et tu casse, comme si tu debouchonner une bouteille de bière, mais doucement.
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Et en Anglais s'il vous plait? Something about a bottle of beer in there?
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Merci ;D
Thank you ;D
Muchas gracias ;D
Viele danke ;D
Gracie ;D
.....
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Et en Anglais s'il vous plait? Something about a bottle of beer in there?
Lesley,
Rafa wrote :
you cut it half way through, you pull, you break... just like opening a bottle of beer, but carefully...
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Diane,
My seed was bought seed and only just sown in Jan. Some of last years sowing is germinating sporadically now with no treatment. I might pick out the seed which hasn't germinated in a week or two and treat it.
Rafa your method for cutting looks good as well I might try that. I think I had better invest in a magnifying glass on a stand as some of the seed are so tiny.
Susan
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This thread makes terrific reading, and as, so far, I'm a "sow 'em, cover 'em with grit, stick 'em outside" type sower I must try some more scientific sowing at some point in the future. I've mastered the art of opening beer bottles though ;D
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Thank you Luit. :) And Rafa.
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As well as a magnifying glass on a stand, maybe a pair of long nosed tweezers would be useful, to hold the individual seeds.
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As well as a magnifying glass on a stand, maybe a pair of long nosed tweezers would be useful, to hold the individual seeds.
Alan Newton has a natty pair of magnifying glasses on a sort of welder's mask type thingy....... perhaps he'll let me know where he got it? Maybe the sort of thing stamp collectors or fly-tyers use?
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Thank you Luit. :) And Rafa.
Credits for Luc in this case Lesley! ;)
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So they are. But I love you both equally, and that's the main thing. :-* :-*
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:-[ :-[ :-[
;D
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So they are. But I love you both equally, and that's the main thing. :-* :-*
That is what I call a Good Day's Start. :D :D
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Alan Newton has a natty pair of magnifying glasses on a sort of welder's mask type thingy....... perhaps he'll let me know where he got it? Maybe the sort of thing stamp collectors or fly-tyers use?
Maybe like this? I bought it about 20 years ago when I used to do some botanical painting - it's surprisingly sturdy and useful for holding and enlarging when you need your hands free. It cost about a fiver in those days. Thanks to Ebay it looks like the price hasn't changed much. It's called Helping Hands
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Diane
Thanks for info Helping Hands is £2.49 + £2.95 postage
Do you think the crocodile clips might be too fierce for seeds? Would they be crushed? Would appreciate your thoughts before I order.
I have reviewed the suppliers Feedback - which shows negatives - and found that those in first 19 pages were unfounded. :)
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Thanks for info Helping Hands is £2.49 + £2.95 postage. Do you think the crocodile clips might be too fierce for seeds? Would they be crushed? Would appreciate your thoughts before I order.
The crocodile clips are quite fierce, and too large for seed, but I think easy to adapt something. For that price, it's worth it, the solid base and magnifying glass are very useful for lots of jobs, I've used it for soldering and mending small items.
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Thanks for info Helping Hands is £2.49 + £2.95 postage. Do you think the crocodile clips might be too fierce for seeds? Would they be crushed? Would appreciate your thoughts before I order.
The crocodile clips are quite fierce, and too large for seed, but I think easy to adapt something. For that price, it's worth it, the solid base and magnifying glass are very useful for lots of jobs, I've used it for soldering and mending small items.
Thanks Diane. At the price I agree it could be useful. I am going to order.
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Crikey, at first glance I thought this device of Diane's was some instrument of torture .... bit scarey looking...... looks a good thing though......
I haven't heard back from Alan yet. His is a contraption that fits on your head,( with more of a headband than like spectacles), if I remember rightly..... and the magnifying visor can be liftedup and down as you work, so you don't need to take it on and off all the time, but it is there on your head if you need it...... ::)
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Crikey, at first glance I thought this device of Diane's was some instrument of torture .... bit scarey looking......
You could always reserve it for Forumists who misbehave. Those crocodile clips look to be extremely painful if applied in the right places ;D
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Crikey, at first glance I thought this device of Diane's was some instrument of torture .... bit scarey looking......
You could always reserve it for Forumists who misbehave. Those crocodile clips look to be extremely painful if applied in the right places ;D
True, but to have to resort to physical torture in those circumstances would be to admit defeat........and that's not in my nature ;D
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Maggi
I agree with you. I forgot to say 'persistently misbehave' One word can make all the difference ;)
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Here we go, folks, Brenda Newton has kindly passed on how to find what the Misses Newton call Alan’s “don’t go down the mines daddy” Visor..........
Gadget is called an Optivisor and here is a link to an Ebay search page for them....
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1313&_nkw=Optivisor&_sacat=See-All-Categories
Not expensive and very useful 8)
Same photo appears in umpteen listings, so I reproduce it here.....
[attach=1]
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My daughter in the US gave me a kind of double magnifier that clips to my spectacles and flips up and down as required.
Unfortunately I have no Idea where she got them but a search among gadget suppliers should locate them.
I can ask her if it is important but it will take a couple of days to get an answer.
Göte
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Half an hour ago I found this Iris kirkwoodii in my (dark) fridge ::) - motivated of the great results of John, Rafa and Fred in forced germination I gave it another try last autumn - over months nothing - but today this ;D
Edit : to show kirkwoodii is listed as Iris kirkwoodiae Chaudhary
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Great Hans !!!
Yesterday, I've just found a new I. urumiensis from last year seeds ;D
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Yes it is always a pleasant surprise when you see germination after a few years of no germination in some pots.
I have losses when I try to move those tiny seedlings into potting mix so I prefer to just leave the seeds in pots for years until they germinate. I can then move the whole potload to its new position in the garden - without too much disturbance.
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Well It seems somebody has started sooner than me, hahah and with splendid results!
I hope this year I will have more success with forced germination, last season was a complete disaster, all the seeds contaminated....
I notice it is very important in forced germination, to avoid the air enter in the bags.
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Hello Rafa, I suppose much earlier as this seedling is one of very few of the last years attempt. ;)
Of about 100 seeds only 5 germinated (three of them died before I noticed their germination) - so results could be quite better.
Surprisingly only one of the seeds was soft - all the other are ok, so I hope to get a good germination in a short period of time as I now keep them outside the fridge. I will compare the germintion of this seeds with the ones I kept outside (sown in pots) last year.
Hope to get seedlings of I. urmiensis next year as I received some seeds from a very skilled plantsman - many thanks again! :D
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Hi all. Hans has motivated me to make another post. Just off the top of my head without running out
with a flashlight here is what have come out of dormancy from my forced germination this spring.
2 barnumae, 2 kirkwoodii, 1 korolkowii, 1 elegantissima, 5 urmiensis, 2 paradoxa, 2 choschab,
1 atropurpurea, 4 calcarea, 1 sari, 1 lycotis, 1 meda, 3 scariosa, 2 acutiloba X choschab,
2 Dardanus X choschab, and 2 Orion X Anacrusis.
And from 2008 germination 2 sofarana, 1 barnumae, 1 elegatissima, and 4 paradoxa are growing again
plus 2 more paradoxa in the pot planted in June 2008 have germinated.
Now to keep them going!
John B
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John you have certainly been able to source lots of aril species and to germinate them as well is great - yes now the touch and go part of keeping them going.
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Well done John,
Here some macro pictures I did to illustrate forced germination method
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Thank you Rafa. I use an exacto hobby knife for cutting. I just pinch the aril off with my thumb and first finger nails.
John
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I just pinch off the aril like John - and maybe remove a little skin covering but I have not ventured into the seed any further.
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Thank's for pics rafa !
Lest year, I've cutted my seeds too deeply and lost lot of them.
now I'm more carefull and trying another method, that I'll explain later.... if it works ;D
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Fantastic pictures Rafa :o , thanks a lot - now I see I did not cut enough off. ::)
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A sure recipe for cut fingers there too, by the look of it. ???
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Well Lesley, "nothing ventured-nothing gained" . A little bloodletting is good now and then. ;)
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I think it is just as bad to cut off too little, as much as to cut too much. It is neccesary to cut 1/3 of the total length (from the embryo) arround the embryo. If you cut too little the embryo wont have the strength to develop and if you cut too much it might just come out of the seed, just by pressing the seeds with your fingers.
To venture into this all depends of the quantity of seeds you have. Here is the second roud that I will cut in three days time.
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Rafa you are correct. If you cut too little the radicle may just callous over and not germinate.
If this happens you can sometimes slice the end and it will grow.
John
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Rafa, I think you'll have some work in the next days !!! ;D ;D
Do you prefer to cut seeds or to dig or built with concrete ? ;D ;)
I wish you good luck and lots of Iris babies in the next weeks :P
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Do we have brain surgeons among the Forumists? :)
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Wow :o - Rafa, I wish I would have the same patience you have... ;)
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Bravo Rafa :o
I see you are even more organized than me! ;D
Just continue this way ;)
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Hi,
On the subject of forced germination, I changed a few things for 2009 based on the overall results from 2008. The 2008 exercise generated about 150 species seedlings that made it completely through the first year and were just potted up into 2 1/2" pots. Below are changes to the procedure I described this time last year
1). Pre-cutting I did a several day soak in ZeroTol (peroxide) to sterilize and rehydrate the seeds, then added a second soak in 10% bleach for 10 minutes immediately before cutting
2). Instead of putting damp sterile perlite straight into small Ziplock bags for seed conditioning and germination, I put it into sterilized small plastic containers - we have them here which contain single servings of things like mandarin oranges or peach chunks in juice. The rationale was to keep the germinating seedlings away from condensation - condensation on the bag sides in contact with the germinating seedlings definitely promotes fungal rot. I put the seeds on the perlite in the base of the containers then put the containers in the Ziplock bags, then refrigerated them. Condensation still forms on the bag side above the perlite/seeds but it never contacts the seeds. Then, when I took the bags out of the fridge after three weeks to initiate embryo elongation I transfered the container in each bag into a new bag, being careful not to disturb the condensation. This proved very valuable - I didn't have any fungal rot on the germinating seeds because the humidity in the bags was now too low to support it, but the seeds were quite happy.
3). The third change was in the containers used to pot up the germinating seeds. Last year I used cell trays, this year I used prop trays with perforated bottoms about 24" long, 15" wide and 5" deep. The idea was to provide a more consistent environment for the seedlings - the cells dried out very quickly and didn't hold much medium. The other huge advantage is in space saving in the greenhouse.
The three prop trays have been in the greenhouse for 10 days and look great so far - I'll post pictures later showing the containers and the trays of seedlings.
Best,
J.
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Many many thank's rafa and John for all this new elements regarding the forced germination;
still not a bed of roses ;D
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One question: Where were the name tags of the seed containers Rafa?
Were they laid out in identical order on the bench out of the photos? ;)
So many seeds and to cut just the right amount off - uhm I might need a very good magnifying glass.
John: glad that you are experimenting to get the optimum method and then sharing it.
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Pat,
There are stickers just visible on the sides of the plastic containers. So everything is carefully labelled by the look of it. ;D
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Better look closer next time Paul ::) :-[
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John thanks a lot for the detailed information. Do you use pure ZeroTol /peroxide for soaking the seeds?
Here an actual picture of an Oncocross (I would not do with rarer species ;)) sown 2008 - autumn 2008 two seedlings appeared, the last few days 5 more germinated. Now I am waiting for the last one.
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Wow... an impressive result Hans !!
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Waow ++ ;D
I love this young green leaves !!!
And I'm also very interested in peroxide concentration...
Thank's
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Many many thank's rafa and John for all this new elements regarding the forced germination;
still not a bed of roses ;D
But that's OK Fred. It's irises you're wanting. ;D
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I tired this for the first time in Jan this year with mixed sucess. The ones which did work did so straight away and I pricked them out into 'root trainers' (these are 12cm tall plugs). There roots quickly outgrew these and were planted outside quite small into a gritty bed. They are now looking great (15cm tall ) although still very green heading into winter, one even has just finished flowering. I am not sure what they all are as my labeling method fell apart during all the moving about (all the ones which germinated were Oncos or arils ) Have more seed ordered so am going to try again but be a bit better organised.
Susan
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Paul I just reread my post and realised that I had forgotten the "I" at the beginning of the sentence in my lost post. I was not referring to you - sorry.
Has anyone used smoke water on iris seeds to aid germination? I bought some last year (not sure where I put the packet) and thought I might try some seed this way this year.
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Pat,
I'd read it with the "I" at the front. I knew the labels were there, so I just figured that was what you meant. No need to apologise. Do the same myself all the time. ;)
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I have seed to sow of one or two Juno species and, being the proud possessor of a full set of fingers and thumbs which I would like to retain, I'm loath to embark on embryo slicing etc. How successful am I likely to be with the "sow 'em, cover 'em with grit, and stick 'em outside in an open frame" method or do I need to adopt a more scientific method?
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Well remember they have to manage on their own in the wild David ;) ;D
As I understand it, interventions may speed up or increase the success rate of germination but are not essential.
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Fred, after 16 cemet mixer in the afternoon I have my hands quite unsteady ;D
Thank you very much John for this precise and useful advices.
Pat I put little sticks with the names, and after hydratation I use them for the bags.
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ZeroTol is a stabilized, concentrated form of peroxide that is commercially available. For sterilizing seeds I generally use a 1:50 dilution. I don't know what this translates to as a final peroxide concentration but I'll check the label when I get a chance.
Best,
John
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David, I have some onco seed on the way to me now and I plan to try the "forced germination" method described so well in this thread. However, I have pretty good success with junos just sowing in a gritty seed mix and covering with half to one centimetre of grit. It is helpfuil if the seed is fresh but even with older seed they come through in time, often just one or two in the first year then another couple later and so on. Don't ever throw the pots out of rarer species, until you're sure there are no more to come.
With my own seed of species like magnifica, vicaria, bucharica, if sown fresh they germinate as well and as quickly as, say, Narcissus or frit seed from one's own garden.
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Thanks Lesley and Ashley.
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Thanks a lot John,
I tried it once with peroxid but as it seemed a bit agressive now I only soak the seeds in a bleachsolution (20%) for about 10 minutes just before I start the procedure. Had rarly any fungus infection in the past.
Using fresh seeds natural germination of Oncos here is similar or only a bit slower as for normal Bearded Iris.
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A note that there is another thread on a similar subject.....
Forced Germination - preparing onco seed.....
here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6450.0
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As well as a magnifying glass on a stand, maybe a pair of long nosed tweezers would be useful, to hold the individual seeds.
Alan Newton has a natty pair of magnifying glasses on a sort of welder's mask type thingy....... perhaps he'll let me know where he got it? Maybe the sort of thing stamp collectors or fly-tyers use?
I know it's a bit late and you probably know already but try Maplins
http://www.maplin.co.uk/2-led-magnifying-visor-219971 (http://www.maplin.co.uk/2-led-magnifying-visor-219971)
Built in light as well ;D
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Handy, Nick and cheaper than the ebay options ....
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=847.msg74102#msg74102
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1313&_nkw=Optivisor&_sacat=See-All-Categories
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Today I checked some seedpots of Oncos - normally they germinate in autumn here, but there is also some germination now - surprisingly even on seeds I planted last month!
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hello hans,
looks great, i hope my will germinatet too....
cheers
chris
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Superb Hans,
congratulations for such nice seedlings !
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Thanks Christian and Fred!
I was really suprised to find those seedlings only one month after planting - I expected first germination next autumn, earliest.
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Great results Hans. I have been soaking arils ready for the fridge and one of the sari seeds shows sign of moving already. I will pot that one up.
I always sow my seed in autumn as our summers are too fierce usually for young seedlings. Seed then germinate during autumn and spring.
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I know I'm renewing an old thread but it is a very useful one.
I just received seed of several onco species and would like to attempt the 'cutting' method for persuading them to germinate. I tried this once before using Geoff Wilson's method on some Archibald seed, but with very little success.
I suspect I may have cut off too much material and damaged the embryos - Rafa's method looks perhaps safer than a straight cut across the seed. It also does not involve removing the whole of the seed coat.
My question was - is it OK to start this process now? Reason for asking is that if all goes well the seeds would be due to germinate around mid-winter when temps and light are poor. But I could (and would) house them in a propagator at a minimum of , say, 10C.
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Darren, I would think it twice to use this technique, know some of the growers here have very good results, but my own results did not convince me. After working with embryo culture and forced germination I actually only let the seed germinate naturally - it is less work, losses are lower (or you just do not remember how many seeds where in a pot after several years ;)) and seedlings seem to grow stronger. My own losses were between 5 - 100% in forced germination (lost For example all the seeds of I.paradoxa mirabilis from JJASeeds this way). Normally natural germination starts to in second autumn (sometimes also in the first one).
Some may say germinating Oncos is just for patient gardener (who is not? ;)) - but sometimes it can go quite quickly.
The plants of the picture, taken in August 2012, were sown in August 2010 - the seed coat is still visible.
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Wow Hans - they are amazing for such young plants! My paradoxa and lycotis sown in october 2010 are tiny by comparison! Those fresh seeds (from Kurt Vickery) germinated well naturally the following year, which confirms what you say.
Thank you for your advice. I am really keen to minimise losses as the seeds from the ASI exchange include the rarely available I.nazarena.
If I sow naturally would I need to keep seed of these southern oncos frost free? I know you may not be able to answer this - as you garden in a relatively warm area anyway.
The packet of I. atropurpurea has a lot of seeds in - enough to experiment with both methods perhaps?
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Hans, you're excellent in weeds growing !! ;D ;D Your seedling are :P ::) :o :o
Darren, like hans, I've tried several ways, and I'm still doing forced germination but I prefer the natural way, sowing the seeds in pots as soon as I get them.
You're right, some of them will germinate after few weeks, other after one year, 2,3,4 years... just have to be patient. A bit longer but less losses and easier to do ! Cutting seeds of some small species is very difficult and usually you loose seeds.
Embryo culture is a good way too, but it needs some equipment and knowledge.
good luck ;D
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OK - thank you Fred. I hope my atropurpurea will look like that soon!
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Maybe consider rubbing the seed coat off on one side on a fine grade sand paper Darren. Its much less fiddly, easier to be very precise, and safer, than trying to cut with a razor blade. Then soak for a day or two before sowing. I have done it with a number of seeds and had good success, ( I. sari was my latest batch ).
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Just thought I would take a little time to check out SRGC forum as I have been so busy with other commitments lately that it is usually a rushed look.
I received Otto and my seed from the ASI this week after AQIS had their sticky hands in the packet and removed a few to check for disease - I guess the seed did not dry evenly and got a bit of discolouration. Once I receive them all back ??? we can start either sending a few to Peter G ;D and start soaking some. I get the most germination in spring from autumn planted seed.
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Thanks Darren and Fred - Fred your "weeds" look very fine! ;)
Darren, wish you good luck! It is very satisfactory to grow them to flowering plants!
Checked some pots today as germination started here recently, some old pots still without germination while other pots sawn two months ago look promising. :D