Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: pehe on September 09, 2011, 02:09:36 PM
-
My first autumn flowering Narcissus this year. As with many other autumn bulbs this is earlier than normal.
Narcissus serotinus
Poul
-
Lovely simple flower Poul
-
Well grown Poul, I daren't even try.
-
Thank you Pat and David!
The key to success is a hot and dry summer dormancy. Gerd K have described a good method in a previous thread.
Poul
-
My first autumn flowering Narcissus this year. As with many other autumn bulbs this is earlier than normal.
Narcissus serotinus
Poul
Poul,
Lovely and soo early indeed! Did you start them by watering?
Gerd
-
Gerd,
As many of my other autumn flowering bulbs under glass (Sternbergia, Colchicum etc) start flowering very early this year (even if they were dry), I decided to water all my pots August the 18Th including this one. But it is only this serotinus pot which is flowering. My other N. serotinus and N. elegans have not shown any flower buds yet.
Poul
-
Hi all ,
here is flowering Narcissus humilis !
Hans
-
Congratulation Hans!
I have never flowered this species, but I still hope for a flower this year.
One more Narcissus serotinus has opened.
Poul
-
Hi all ,
here is flowering Narcissus humilis !
Hans
Hans, This one? ;D
Poul, just three days after I finished artificial heating!
Gerd
-
Gerd,
Lovely cavanillesii / humilis!
My very first flower bud is just visible, so hopefully I can post a pic in a few days. Elegans are flowering soon too. No sign of perezlarae or broussoneti yet. I have hoped to get hold of some viridiflorus this year - they were ordered but unfortunately the supplier couldn't deliever. Now I hope for some seeds in the seed exchange.
-
Next pots of Narcissus cavanillesii began to flower
1. + 2. from Morón de la Frontera
3. ssp. mauretanicus
4. - 6. comparison of the different forms. No. 6 is an extraordinary
fine and large type received from a kind English donor recently,
already shown here (Sept. 17th)
Gerd
-
WOW!
Well grown Gerd!
I have only one single cavanillesii in bud.
Narcissus elegans opened the first flower today
Poul
-
Here is starting with flowers Narcissus viridiflora :D
without any technical help - but my climate is shure good for such mediterranean plants
Hans 8)
-
Thank you Poul!
Your elegans flower is of a much better shape than mines - pics will follow
when open.
Gerd
-
Great to see these well-grown plants!
-
I'm always impressed by the quality of these autumn daffs posted to the Forum! To me they are as exciting as any of the spring flowers. The fact that they look so unlike other daffs and flower at the other end of the season makes them even more interesting.
cheers
fermi
-
Fermi, I find these autumn daffs (and almost all other autumn bulbs!) exciting too. The fact that they need a little extra care to flower gives even more satisfaction when you finally see them flowering.
Here is my very first Narcissus cavanillesii flower. Flower stem is 12 cm and the flower is 2.5 cm wide.
Poul
-
Does N. viridiflorus produce leaves with flowers?
Arnold
-
Does N. viridiflorus produce leaves with flowers?
Arnold
Apparently it doesn't need to as the flower stem can photosynthesize!
cheers
fermi
-
Thank you Poul!
Your elegans flower is of a much better shape than mines - pics will follow
when open.
Gerd
These are the strange inward curved flowers of my Narcissus elegans (no. 1).
I don't know the reason for this phenomenon which occurs with all plants of the
genus here regardless of their origin. Any suggestions to prevent this are welcome!
No. 2 and 3 are N. serotinus s. str. from Morón/Spain and the last pic
is N. miniatus from Mochos/Crete - a gift from a nice donor.
Gerd
-
Next ones - from October 1st
Narcissus miniatus ex Tarifa coast and x perezlarae
Gerd
-
Superb, Gerd!
I must say, I find the twisted petals rather charming :)
-
Thank you Maggi -
' Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ' :)
Gerd
-
Very nice indeed Gerd.
-
Thank you, David!
Gerd
-
These autumn daffs have a reputation of being shy flowering!
Certainly not in the hands of Gerd 8) 8) 8)
Well done
Poul
-
I have N. viridiflorus about to flower.
The scent has been described as 'pleasant'. Anyone have a more descriptive comment on it's scent.
Arnold
-
Thank you too, Poul!
You reminded me to describe my latest ' warming ' - method. Will do this after
the rest of the species will flower.
Narcissus x perezlarae are poor this season.
Gerd
-
Narcissus viridiflorus
-
Very nice Arnold. Is it it's first flowering for you?
-
Narcissus viridiflorus
Congratulations!
- and how does it smell? (Unfortunately I lost my olfactory sense - so I can't
describe it - my wife said she doesn't like the odour of this species)
Gerd
-
Dave, yes first flowering for me. Got the bulb from the horticultural Nancy Wilson not the singing one.
I had inquired about the scent. I think not altogether pleasant.
A bit like laundry detergent for my nose.
-
Nice to see Narcissus viridiflorus in flower. I have just received some seeds from a generous forum member. With a little luck I can show them flowering in about 5 years...
Until then, I can only show these:
Narcissus serotinus - a pot with 5 bulbs all with flower
Narcissus serotinus seed pod - I hope they are ripe in time for the seed exchange
Narcissus elegans - a pot with 3 bulbs, 2 in flower
I kept them bone dry in the summer and the pots were placed in direct sun close to the green house window. No artificial heat. That seems to work pretty well.
Poul
-
Narcissus serotinus - a pot with 5 bulbs all with flower
Narcissus serotinus seed pod - I hope they are ripe in time for the seed exchange
Narcissus elegans - a pot with 3 bulbs, 2 in flower
I kept them bone dry in the summer and the pots were placed in direct sun close to the green house window. No artificial heat. That seems to work pretty well.
Poul
Lovely pics - well cultivated plants. Once again I admire the shape of your N. elegans!
Gerd
-
Perfect grown narcissisi Gerd, Poul and Arnold!
Not being narcissus specialist I am wondering about Pouls N. elegans - I would have thought it is a N. miniatus - it has no similarity to the N.elegans I grow. ::)
Here also first appeared:
Narcissus x perezlarae and Narcissus miniatus
-
Thank you Hans!
Regarding my N. elegans, I am suspicious too. I had expected more flowers on the same stem, but I am no expert either. When the flower opens the corona is greenish and turns more orange as Blanchard's description of elegans. They were bought last year from a well renown supplier under the name elegans, but they make mistakes too. What is Gerd's opinion?
Poul
-
Hans: Fantastic Narcissus x perezlarae. Looks much brighter 'semi-wild' than here in the north!
Poul: The easiest way to separate them is to look at the leaves. N. elegans has flat leaves, which are glaucous and which appear before or with the flowers while those of serotinus are greener, filiform and were developed after the flower stem.
Gerd
-
I am thinking in make a sketch with Gerd's comments and also my comments.This group of narcissi is easy to understand.
-
Please do, Rafa. Your sketches say more than words alone.
-
Please do, Rafa. Your sketches say more than words alone.
Please from me too Rafa.
-
Poul: The easiest way to separate them is to look at the leaves. N. elegans has flat leaves, which are glaucous and which appear before or with the flowers while those of serotinus are greener, filiform and were developed after the flower stem.
Gerd
Gerd, here are a detailed description:
One dark green leave, oval 2.5 X 1.5 mm, 15 cm long, same time as flower. Not rough to the touch.
Flower 32 mm, pedicel 13 mm, orange corona 2.5 mm diameter, 1.5 mm long. Tube light green, 15 mm. Yellow pollen. Stem 15 cm. I have only had one flower on each stem the last 2 years.
Poul
-
Thanks a lot Gerd!
Poul - the diameter of the leaf and the general small size of the plant let me think yours is not N. elegans, but please have a look on the picture of N. elegans I took today (sorry not in flower).
Second picture show first Narcissus x alleniae.
-
Do you get many seeds Hans?
-
Poul: Like Hans I tend to think your plant is miniatus. The presence of a leaf while flowering is rare but can occur. It seems the size of the leaf and the corona is a bit large. So this puzzles me a bit.
I add a pic of elegans (var. auranticoronatus) and miniatus for comparison.
I hope, Rafa will do a more precise identification.
Hans: Fantastic x alleniae!
Gerd
-
Lovely pics guys.
The last of my daffs are out now, from the shadey parts of the garden, but nice to have daffs from March to late October here in the deep south :)
The cicadas will be singing soon so my lack of bulbs will be quenched by the sound of summer and hopefully some trips up some mountains.
Oh and go the Welsh, AB's and Kiwis ;D
-
Thank you Hans and Gerd for the identification! It is nice to know that I now have miniatus, a new species for me. Luckily I have seedlings of what I strongly believe is elegans. But that will show in a couple of years!
Hans, beautiful Narcissus x alleniae! Is that a natural hybrid?
Poul
-
Just a few pics from today
1. Narcissus miniatus - planted in the rockgarden
2. Narcissus serotinus - ex Morocco (thanks to the donor)
3. + 4. Hybrid of unknown parentage
Gerd
-
Gosh Gerd, you have certainly got the knack when it comes to these wee autumn dafs! 8)
-
Thanks a lot Anthony! :)
Gerd
-
N. miniatus 'Orange' in bloom today, received two years ago from a friend on this forum.
-
Very fine Narcissi Gerd and Oron!
I like N. serotinus from morroco very much!
Do you get many seeds Hans?
The hybrids do not produce seeds - not sure if my N.elegans do, N.miniatus does, but the last years I was not able to collect any - one day they look the capsule needs still a few days and the next day I find the open capsule without any seeds inside... :P
Poul, yes, N.x alleniae is a natural hybrid - here unfortunatly sterile.
Now N.elegans started to flower - very short this year (about 25cm).
-
this summer I bought 2 bulbs of N. serotinus from a friends here in Italy and now they are in bloom! one put out 2 scapes!
they are sweet scented :D
-
Love this peach form of N. obsoletus, Oron. Is it Gerd's selection?
-
I admire all this skill in growing these beauties - well done and thanks for showing. :D
-
I'm so looking forward to my seedlings flowering!
-
My first Narcissus to flower this Autumn,
Narcissus romieuxii 'Camoro' Seedling.
-
Well done Michael, is that one you've raised yourself?
-
Yes David, a five year old from my own seed.
-
We have less than great success with the wonderful autumn species we have seen from some other clever Forumists, but we have similar little white gems beginning to flower now as well, Michael... we love them all.
Their pure crystalline bells in the darkening days of autumn are a real treat.
-
Very nice Michael.
The first N. romieuxii is in flower here & a miserable little thing it is. I presume this is the effect of the severe cold last winter. It will be interesting to see what the others are like. N. cantabricus is already in bud which seems very early.
-
Back from a short absence I was greeted by
1. - 3. Narcissus miniatus (serotinus) x tazetta - for me the most beautiful and also an easy growing autumn flowering daffodil - a gift from a nice forumist
4. + 5. Narcissus miniatus from Cyprus
Gerd
-
Very nice Michael.
The first N. romieuxii is in flower here & a miserable little thing it is. I presume this is the effect of the severe cold last winter. It will be interesting to see what the others are like. N. cantabricus is already in bud which seems very early.
No buds on any of mine yet. Maybe I watered later this year, should have made a note of the date but didn't!
-
Beautiful Gerd, you do grow them well.
-
I agree. Very pretty Gerd. 8)
-
David+ Anthony,
Thanks for compliments!
Gerd
-
Gerd, had not seen the picture of Narcissus miniatus (serotinus) x tazetta - it is a real gem!
Here some more pics - first of N. x alleniae which made a fine and great smelling show in the garden. The second narcissus is a bit strange - I had received it as N.serotinus but now I have doubts what it could be - it has to many flowers and the leaves are similar to those of N.elegans. The colour of the corona did not change to orange.
Last one: Narcisussus viridiflorus
-
Either way Hans it is very nice
-
Thanks a lot Kees!
Found a picture of a plant which has a similar flower - taken in a botanic garden in Soller which should be the local form of Narcissus elegans of Mallorca. Here the pic: http://jardin-mundani.info/amaryllidaceae/narcissuselegans.jpg while the "Herbario Virtual" shows other pics: http://herbarivirtual.uib.es/eng-med/especie/4909.html
Have not seen this species here in nature, but I am growing some small plants of it which could flower next year - will see if they are similar. Have to check the notes where the origin of the flowering plant was - but i am pretty sure it was not from here.
-
Hans,
Fantastic show. The nonexistent change to a orange corona of your mistery plant puzzles me.
I hope, Rafa will add a comment.
I add some pics of my plants ' in captivity ' - incomparable with those from Mallorca. The Narcissus x alleniae is very close to its viridiflorus parent.
The bulbocodium flowers unusually early.
Gerd
-
To me Hans's plants are N. obsoletus, I grow also plants that maintain all the time greenish corona, and Font-Quer call it var. var. fallax.
Gerd, that it really puzzle me is your bulbocodium, it grown in the green house? last year similar case happened to N. bulbocodium subsp. validus, the one that I crossed successfully with a late N. viridiflorus.
I recently noticed N. elegans has also big variability, with 20!!! flowers per scape, probably the most floriferous narcissus in the genus, and a gift to the sight.
-
Gerd, that it really puzzle me is your bulbocodium, it grown in the green house? last year similar case happened to N. bulbocodium subsp. validus, the one that I crossed successfully with a late N. viridiflorus.
Rafa,
Yes, the bulbocodium flowers inside the greenhouse which means it experienced a warmer
and drier rest than plants outside. First intense soaking was at the beginning of September.
Gerd
-
Superb grown plants Gerd!
Thanks a lot Gerd and Rafa!
-
Narcissus tazetta Kas, Turkey
-
A perfect treat to see these in nature. 8)
-
what a beautiful shot and plants! it grows like N. papyraceus in many places of Cadiz in this natural rock pots.
-
Narcissus tazetta Kas, Turkey
What a show!
Seriously - doesn't this plant beat any snowdrop! ;)
Gerd
-
Hans, Gerd and Tony,
It is a pleasure to see these wellgrown and expertly photographed narcissus. Well done!
My narcissus right now:
In the greenhouse
N. serotinus
N. cantabricus foliosus
In the garden at my Sternbergia wall
N. cantabricus foliosus has just started flowering
N. cantabricus foliosus closeup
Poul
-
Mine are on their way folks ;D
First one of the season a little bulbocodium from Morocco crossed with bulbocodium nivalis raised by Brian Duncan. I've had this for a couple of years now. I noticed that I pictured the same plant on 17 January earlier this year, and this time I watered for the first time a couple of weeks later than I did last year.
-
Narcissus tazetta Kas, Turkey
Wonderful Tony!
-
Narcissus tazetta Kas, Turkey
What a show!
Seriously - doesn't this plant beat any snowdrop! ;)
Gerd
sshhhh, you will upset the locals.
-
Narcissus tazetta Kas, Turkey
What a show!
Seriously - doesn't this plant beat any snowdrop! ;)
Gerd
sshhhh, you will upset the locals.
Pat, don't worry, since it's in the narcissus section... they'll never see it! ;D ;D
-
Maggi, right out of sight out of mind.
-
Narcissus tazetta Kas, Turkey
What a show!
Seriously - doesn't this plant beat any snowdrop! ;)
Gerd
sshhhh, you will upset the locals.
Pat, don't worry, since it's in the narcissus section... they'll never see it! ;D ;D
Oh yes we will, and we will get very defensive of our beloved 'drops. Mind you, I'd like to say that the tazettas are stunning, so I would say that I'm on defence! 8)
-
Narcissus tazetta Kas, Turkey
Can only add to all previous comments Tony ! S u p e r b !!! :o
-
Not completely sure about the name on this one.
I have it as Narcissus cantabricus foliosus
-
Not completely sure about the name on this one.
I have it as Narcissus cantabricus foliosus
Arnold - if it is that plant it will have a pedicel, other forms of N.cantabricus do not. Given the early flowering, it probably is.
-
Gery:
Here's one from last year.
Looks like a pedicel.
-
The phot is a bit dark but it looks like it.
-
Last try.
-
Very close to Narcissus albicans...
-
syn. N. cantabricus subsp. monophyllus?
-
syn. N. cantabricus subsp. monophyllus?
N. albicans syn of N. cantabricus subsp. monophyllus?
-
Sorry Rafa I did not make myself clear. I wondered if Narcissus albicans was a synonym of N. cantabricus subsp. monophyllus
-
I don't know David, maybe it is write in any database as a synonim. The plant that I understand as N. albicans is a plant with a hybrid origin between N. cantabricus and N. bulbocodium, but this is just my oppinion. This narcissus is publish here:
http://bibdigital.rjb.csic.es/PDF/Adumb_32.pdf
-
Here is N. x xanthochlorus, I don't remeber where it was published,.. It is an hybrid between N. viridiflorus (mother) and N. cavanillesii (father) recently pictured by my friend Joaquín Ramirez. Here are many other pictures of autumn Narcissi from him. Specially interesting the 19 flowers of N. elegans, amazing plant. http://www.flickr.com/photos/naturalezadeandalucia/sets/72157607466185346/
-
The world really does get smaller.... recently I asked permission from Joaquín Ramirez for permission to use a photograph of his in the IRG that has just gone online ( November 2011).... at that time I did not know he was a friend of Rafa's! He was kind enough to grant permission and the photo, of the seeds of Putoria calabrica is inthe magazine.
Elsewhere in that IRG is a piece by Ian on some winter flowering narcissus... yes, it's a small world.
The photographs of Joaquín Ramirez are truly wonderful and I urgeyou to visit his site. I hope that, with Rafa's help (my Spanish being sadly lacking) we may also persuade Joaquín to share more of his photos with the IRG in future. He is working with Rafa on other things, too!
-
Oh yes! internet has made our world little.
Joaquín and I are studying autumn Narcissi since several years ago in south Spain, when he discover the only location of N. elegans in Peninsula iberica. He is a very generous and good person...
-
It's that time of year again. I feel safe in predicting that for the next 3 months these threads will be dominated by questions & debate about the identity of various hoop petticoat daffodils.
-
;D I promise to not make confusion between members :-[ :-X ;D
-
;D ;D ;D
-
Here is N. x xanthochlorus, I don't remeber where it was published,.. It is an hybrid between N. viridiflorus (mother) and N. cavanillesii (father) recently pictured by my friend Joaquín Ramirez. /
- Rafa, Thank you for sending pics of this rare cross. Among others these kind of information makes this Forum unvaluable for me!
Gerd
-
- want to add these pics of autumn flowering daffododills ( the last ones for this season)
Narcissus x alleniae and its parents
Gerd
-
Gerd what a floriferous N. viridiflorus, it would have a bulb like an orange! ;D
-
Perhaps Narcissus viridiflorus viridifloriforus?
-
Lovely stuff Gerd.
Something a bit more common from me. Narcissus romieuxii ssp romieuxii var. mesatlanticus, the originals came from Ian Young way back in 2007. As Ian said in Log 45 (9 November 2011) they are possibly a hybrid between N. cantabricus monophyllus and N. romieuxii.
-
Absolutely agree, with Ian.
I am sure some people would say just N. albicans, full stop, or N. cantabricus, full stop.
My personal opinion is that all those not clear species from North Africa are certainly speciations of ancient hybrids. As the same way we have N. albicans, (that I consider it as a successful hybrid between N. cantabricus DC. and Narcissus bulbocodium L.) it would be "African versions" of N. albicans, so Ian's suggestion is the most plausible to me. For sure, N. cantabricus and N. romieuxii, are creating new species, through hybridisation.
-
Here's a fully open pot full.
Narcissus cantabricus foliosus
-
Very nice Arnold. Just about over here.
-
I have another pot full which came from N. Ireland.
Will be interested to see the comparison.
-
Very nice Arnold. Just about over here.
.... and mine not out yet!
-
Very nice Arnold. Just about over here.
.... and mine not out yet!
There seem to be several stocks or clones of this around. I have 3 which differ in morphology (size & shape of flower) but only slightly in time of flowering.
-
Gosh there are some amazing Narcissus species and photos on this link.
Thanks especially to Rafa for the link to Joaquín's photo gallery
-
Here are two N. cantabricus foliosus clones, I believe.
On the left is the previous one I posted received from Jane McGary, former editor of the Rock Garden Quarterly and the right one from Brian Duncan.
-
Just catching up - what a feast!
JoaquÃn's website is now in my favourites :)
-
I agree Anne. I wonder if he ever has Narcissus elegans seed available?
-
I will try to donate next SRGC Index Seminum from this species, although most probably it will be labeled with a new name...
I have donated seeds from this species in past Index Seminum as N. elegans, so if any of yours are growing it, remember to put an interrogate in the label.
Anthony, is it possible to send little bulbs to New Zeland?
-
Rafa New Zealand is worse than Australia.
You would have to label any seed N. elegans if any NZ or Australian were to receive seed.
-
Well this case I will donate Narcissus elegans next SRGC.
-
These recent posts are quite an illustration of what difficulties can arise from the seemingly ever-changing names of plants. It is well nigh impossible to expect the import authorities to keep up to speed on the taxonomical changes abounding in the plant world - all of which makes the import of seed even more complicated. :-X
-
Here's one I don't know anything about but I got it from Bob and Rannveig's List in 2010. It didn't flower last year so I don't know if it's early or on time. I have to say it doesn't look different from N. romieuxii or bulbocodium. If anyone can fill this gap in my education I'll be chuffed.
Narcissus jeanmonodii
-
David - According to Jim Archibald N. jeanmonodii (of F.Casas) is a N. African plant which Maire called N. bulbocodium subsp nivalis.
By the way, Jim describes the plant as having upward-facing flowers with much exerted anthers. Your plant doesn't seem to look like this.
Edit: I can't find this in Rannveig's 2010 list. In her 2000 list she has it under Maire's name.
-
The dyslexic BD tends to write the name of this narcissus as jeanmondii.... I'll get him trained one of these decades...... :-\
This name is one described by Fernando Casas and is basically a geographic variation of nivalis, I think.
Ours (under the name jenamonodii) are always upward facing.... think Star-gazy pie!
Have a look at the comments in Bulb Log 11/11 page....http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6922.0 and in that log itself: http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2011Mar161300283163BULB_LOG__1111.pdf
-
Thanks Gerry and Maggi.
I was wrong, I got mine from Brian Duncan, (BD not BT-handwriting problem again!) think I'll drop him a line and get his view. Will report back.
Mine doesn't look like Ian's in Log 11 15 March 2011, and mine, on that basis, is very early! Maybe it does look more like Anne's jeanmondoii ???
-
Gerd Knoche is sharing with us details of a method to use to gain better flowering from Autumn flowering narcissus.... I have given this its own thread :
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8183.0 8)
-
Maybe it does look more like Anne's bulbocodium ssp nivalis ???
What what what???
-
Maybe it does look more like Anne's bulbocodium ssp nivalis ???
What what what???
Sorry Anne, getting myself confused (not difficult to do) what I was trying to say was that my jeanmonodii(?) didn't look like Ian's but there were similarities between mine and yours. I've edited my previous post.
-
I think it is N. bulbocodium L. subsp. nivalis Graells, or var. nivalis (Graells) Baker. In Flora Iberica is only supported N. bulbocodium L.
In my oppinion it is of course N. nivalis Graells, a plant that only grows from Gredos to Guadarrama Mt. Ranges and North Portugal.
Quite off topic, but anybody has any information about Narcissus jonquilla L. f. stenantha? could anybody send me the e-mail of Mr. Fritz Kummert
-
I think it is N. bulbocodium L. subsp. nivalis Graells, or var. nivalis (Graells) Baker. In Flora Iberica is only supported N. bulbocodium L.
In my oppinion it is of course N. nivalis Graells, a plant that only grows from Gredos to Guadarrama Mt. Ranges and North Portugal.
Rafa, I have some small N. bulbocodium ssp. nivalis plants from seed collected in the Cantabrian Mountains at 1900m (Pavelka). The geographic range you describe for this subspecies is much more south... Can you please comment on it?
Hans
-
To be fair on NZ MAF: if a seed has a new name, but can be traced back to an old name of an allowed species it is OK, and if they don't find the connection they will accept it if you can prove its pedigree. I have trouble getting my head round things like finding "Alstroemeria yellow" is on the allowed list but "Alstroemeria patagonica", which has yellow flowers, isn't! :-\
-
To be fair on NZ MAF: if a seed has a new name, but can be traced back to an old name of an allowed species it is OK, and if they don't find the connection they will accept it if you can prove its pedigree. I have trouble getting my head round things like finding "Alstroemeria yellow" is on the allowed list but "Alstroemeria patagonica", which has yellow flowers, isn't! :-\
All this MAF names are absurd, they don't even know what are they talking about...
-
Hans, the plants you motioned are not N. bulbocodium subsp. nivalis, the geographical distribution of it is very little in Central Spain and North Portugal. This is a plant that I know very very well because I live in one of the places with more localities Guadarrama Mountain Range. It's a very variable species.
The plant you mentioned grows in all the north of Spain from Galicia to French Landes (also in Burgos) It has named with many names: ej.
Narcissus juressianus, Narcissus turgidus, subsp. lainzi, subsp. validus... all are the same plant, but the name is another case. I doubt between supporting subsp. validus and N. turgidus.
I am lately against consider many subsp. of N. bulbocodium and considered them as valid species thinking also in their geographical distribution. For example I supporting Narcissus nivalis Graells, before Narcissus bulbocodium L. as they are very different plants to me and also concerning their hybridisation relation with other Narcissi.
-
What we need is a nice new monograph... :-*
-
Thanks Rafa! It shows that geographic information can be very important to assess whether a species indeed is what it was labeled, even without flowers present... Provided that the collection locality is correct. But that is much easier than the taxonomy of Narcissus ;D
And Anne is right...we all desperately wait for a new monograph :)
-
What we need is a nice new monograph... :-*
We do indeed, but how likely is that? I am not holding my breath.
-
Hans, in my oppinion, I considered in Narcissus it is very important the geographical distribution because it has had evolutive consecuences, it is having and it will have consecuences.
An example of my observations in the nature about it: N. bulbocoidium L. it's a plant that grows in Toledo, Ciudad Real, Extremadura.. in the places where it is growing with N. jonquilla, N. cantabricus, N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus... When the blooming time between N. bulbocodium L. and N. cantabricus it's the same (due the environmental conditions), they produce hybrids in both directions and the procces of speciation starts, evolving to N. albicans. The opposite case in the same crosses between N. nivalis and N. cantabricus, here there is only one direction in this hybrid, and they won't evolve to another species. So, if we consider this as a valid process (not proove, just my theory) we could see that N. albicans has a geographical distribution similar to N. cantabricus and N. bulbocodium L. but you never will find N. albicans version in a N. nivalis distribution.
Imagine N. x alleniae would be an species, the logical distribution will be Cádiz/North Morocco, where the parent lived in other time. Well this is the same, if we think in the rest of species, the problem is that we can't know the distribution of the ancient parents.
Please, don't think this is a valid theory scientificly prooved, it is just my theory.
-
Narcissus cantabricus "Peppermint"
-
Very nice, Arnold.
I didn't know that cultivar and a search of the RHS register http://apps.rhs.org.uk/horticulturaldatabase/daffodilregister/daffdetails.asp?ID=258980 tells me that it was registered by
Walter J.M.Blom in 2003 .
Pretty thing 8)
-
Hans, in my oppinion, I considered in Narcissus it is very important the geographical distribution because it has had evolutive consecuences, it is having and it will have consecuences.
An example of my observations in the nature about it: N. bulbocoidium L. it's a plant that grows in Toledo, Ciudad Real, Extremadura.. in the places where it is growing with N. jonquilla, N. cantabricus, N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus... When the blooming time between N. bulbocodium L. and N. cantabricus it's the same (due the environmental conditions), they produce hybrids in both directions and the procces of speciation starts, evolving to N. albicans. The opposite case in the same crosses between N. nivalis and N. cantabricus, here there is only one direction in this hybrid, and they won't evolve to another species. So, if we consider this as a valid process (not proove, just my theory) we could see that N. albicans has a geographical distribution similar to N. cantabricus and N. bulbocodium L. but you never will find N. albicans version in a N. nivalis distribution.
Imagine N. x alleniae would be an species, the logical distribution will be Cádiz/North Morocco, where the parent lived in other time. Well this is the same, if we think in the rest of species, the problem is that we can't know the distribution of the ancient parents.
Please, don't think this is a valid theory scientificly prooved, it is just my theory.
Rafa, I agree with you. Your interesting observations show that biogeographical and ecological processes are important in understanding Narcissus. Rather than trying to give a proper name to a certain taxon based on morphology, we simply need to look further at what is actually happening in the field or we will never understand Narcissus..
-
Better explained than me, in resume this is what I think. ;)
-
Maggi:
Thanks, now if I could see the difference between this and other Cantabricus.....
-
Maggi:
Thanks, now if I could see the difference between this and other Cantabricus.....
;D ;) Well, yes, that's another matter , isn't it? :D
-
Narcissus Jessamy Douglas Blanchard, England, UK 1952
-
Seed parent: N. romieuxii
Pollen parent: N. cantabricus ssp cantabricus var. foliosus
http://daffseek.org/query/query-detail.php?value1=Jessamy&lastpage=1&
-
Narcissus romieuxii subsp. albidus var. zaianicus
-
What we need is a nice new monograph... :-*
Anne,
Work, initiated by the RHS has already commenced on Section Bulbocodium. Collections have been made in many parts of Spain, Portugal and Morocco. Apprporiate molecular work, including DNA sequencing is taking place. Thankfully morphological considerations will not be ignored. This is one of my fears about the dedicated use of modern techniques where it might be possible for so many species with distinct morphological characterists being lumped together - to the further confusion of gardeners.
Brian
-
What we need is a nice new monograph... :-*
Anne,
Work, initiated by the RHS has already commenced on Section Bulbocodium. Collections have been made in many parts of Spain, Portugal and Morocco. Apprporiate molecular work, including DNA sequencing is taking place. Thankfully morphological considerations will not be ignored. This is one of my fears about the dedicated use of modern techniques where it might be possible for so many species with distinct morphological characterists being lumped together - to the further confusion of gardeners.
Brian
Brian - this is very good news. When are we likely to see a publication?
-
Hallelujah!!!!
-
Being a Yorkshireman (with some very diluted Scottish blood) I'll obviously wait until I know how much it us beofre singing Hallelujah ;D
-
Ah, some Methodist in your madness David.
-
Mum was a Methodist, Dad a Baptist and look how I turned out! ;D
-
I was baptised Swedenborgian as that was the church in Long Lane, Dalton.
-
I would sell my snowdrop books to buy it ::)
-
I would sell my snowdrop books to buy it ::)
Anne - if it is published as a real book I think you would need to sell more than your snowdrop books. Since sales would be tiny, it is likely to be very expensive. I suppose it could be published online.
-
DNA studies in Narcissus genus are not very useful tool as it changes in the same species, in the same locality depending the altitude.
Geographical distribution and Alkaloids research are much interesting tools because it also explains the evolutive relation between species. I am quite exceptic about RHS classification because this genus is extremely complex and it needs years of field research. If you collect few samples, surely, it will be a huge list of different species like in the past. Most of the names in the old calssification were invalid, retired by their own authors, but I saw it again in following classifications ej: Narcissus lagoi, Narcissus juressianus, Narcissus calcicarpetanus etc.. etc.. also other legitime names that are not recognize like N. obsoletus (since Parkinson's draw), and not N. miniatus.
I suggest to RHS researches to live some years in Spain during the study, otherwise I'm affraid it will be another case of greenhouse taxonomy. It's a nice place, very sunny! ;) good food, and with Portugal, North west Africa, the geographical origin of the genus.
-
.. also other legitime names that are not recognize like N. obsoletus (since Parkinson's draw), and not N. miniatus.
http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-347508 - following Kew N. obsoletus is accepted ;)
Glad on my small island only grow three species ... ;)
-
You are wrong Hans, there is a place in Mallorca where you can find N. cantabricus as well and many other species.... YOUR GARDEN! ;D
-
;D - you might be right, and I think most of them are still correct labeled ;)
-
I suggest to RHS researches to live some years in Spain during the study, otherwise I'm affraid it will be another case of greenhouse taxonomy. It's a nice place, very sunny! ;) good food, and with Portugal, North west Africa, the geographical origin of the genus.
There is already someone who has been there researching for some time... ;)
-
you? Anne? :o
-
Love this peach form of N. obsoletus, Oron. Is it Gerd's selection?
Sorry Rafa, missed that, yes it is Gerd's selection.
-
Oh thank you Oron, so we could call it Narcissus obsoletus var. knochei ? ;)
-
Personally I will wait till Rafa decides to write up all his findings - with his marvellous illustrations to show features.
I should imagine that authors of plant books do not always make a living from that alone.
This book will need to be written in conjunction with the aril book that he will co author and illustrate with Oron and Miriam etc ;D ;D
This is for your spare time Rafa ;)
-
OHH! Pat, thank you for your compliment :-* I am just a amateur botanist.... most of the scientific people here, involved in Narcissus research consider me quite mad!! anyway they leave to participate in their projects. We are going to publish next year an interesting paper of Narcissus genus, based in alkaloids. Quite perturbing conclusions and results...
Concerning illustration, I starting again to paint since I stopped the house works. A long winter comes and I hope to make many many watercolors. Maybe I will make any expo in Scottland someday, here there are not much interest in botanical art. Aslo I will prepared a bird illutration expo. I am currently working in a plate of Iris nectarifera, thanks to a picture that Hans sent me, and also a plate with N. obsoletus, N. viridiflorus and their hybrids N. x alleniae (the official one) and another direcction of hybrid, I discovered two years ago that I called N. x rutherfordii.
The actual Taxonomy Laws just support one hybrid, don't matter who has done male or female gamets, or if the hybrid is self fertile and don't need any longer their ancient parents, the name have to be the same N. x alleniae. This is a mixtake in my oppinion, it is not the same AxB or BxA, at least in Narcissus genus, but I am starting to think that it is fundamental in any genus. Of course, I also understand as a mixtake to call N. x .... somthing that is self fertile, which is creating bigger populations than the parents.
Today is blooming in the green house Narcissus albicans, but I don't know where I leave the camera!!.
PS: Anybody has comunicated recently with Ezeiza member (Dr. Alberto Castillo) no news from him since many days... :-\
-
PS: Anybody has comunicated recently with Ezeiza member (Dr. Alberto Castillo) no news from him since many days... :-\
Rafa, Alberto has posted on the PBS List recently. Found your camera yet? ;D
-
Oh thank you Oron, so we could call it Narcissus obsoletus var. knochei ? ;)
var knochei or knochii sounds good to me only that the species name itself would probably change 3 more times in the next couple of years... ;)
-
Oh thank you Oron, so we could call it Narcissus obsoletus var. knochei ? ;)
Rafa & Oron,
Oh no, it seems you don't imagine what my name means in German -
here it would be the 'bone' daffodil! ;)
Gerd
-
Narcissus cantabricus Silver Palate
Narcissus romieuxii ssp. albidus var. zaianicus
-
Very nice!
-
Nice little collection you're building there Arnold.
-
Thanks David,
Although I feel sometimes like the Emperors New Clothes with the identity of some of these miniature Narcissus.
-
Thanks David,
Although I feel sometimes like the Emperors New Clothes with the identity of some of these miniature Narcissus.
Is that narcissism?
-
Anthony, an extreme case.
You look in the pool of water at your reflection and you're not wearing any clothes.
-
Anthony, an extreme case.
You look in the pool of water at your reflection and you're not wearing any clothes.
:o :P :-[ :'( ;D in that order.