Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: Tecophilaea King on September 02, 2011, 11:09:46 AM
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Narcissus dubius: another interesting very small and dainty looking species flowering for the first time.
Bears clusters of up to 6 pure white flowers, carried on stiff stems. It is slow to increase and is better off in a pot rather than an open border.
This species is flowering just in time to be used in a spot of hybridizing with selected species and other fertile varieties of interest.
The second picture is a nice N.cyclamineus X N.jonquilla seedling which produced four charming little flowers per stem.
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Bill I am looking forward to the day you put those bi coloureds on a catologue, will be a good 4-5 years before I will see any of mine.
You can always add a special price list to me with this years usual one :P
Ta Kees
Kees, thanks for your interest in our miniatures, and wished I could speed up the increase of these desirable new mini bulbs.
Some of the more popular new seedlings, which we often only have a few bulbs of, and if we want to put them on our price-list, we need to build up stock first, it's a slow process which could take a few more years.
Depending on the increase and numbers, some could be available in the near future. We also have to grow the new seedlings on for a few more years to to find out if they are consistent in their improvement, shape, vigour, colour, and other desirable characteristics.
Sometimes certain seedlings flower once and than disappear forever, while others thrive and make good progress, with more trials and testing.
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;D Hi
Part 1. The first flower is very unusual. A miniature cyclamineus hybrid that is both a double and a split cup! I will be posting a mostly intermediates and miniatures. The miniature 7Y-Y could well be considered a split cup by some but I suspect the judges would just say deep scalloping! It is a cross between N. cordubensis and N. rupicola.
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I hope that you both will make some straight species crosses to increase the species.
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;D Hi
Todays photos should appeal to those who like something different with colour! I probably need to issue a warning that there are photos of quite a few split cups!!
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Narcissus dubius: another interesting very small and dainty looking species flowering for the first time.
Bears clusters of up to 6 pure white flowers, carried on stiff stems. It is slow to increase and is better off in a pot rather than an open border.
This species is flowering just in time to be used in a spot of hybridizing with selected species and other fertile varieties of interest.
Very nice too. I'm just embarking on my third (& last) attempt to grow this species - I've only tried it in pots. What is the secret of success?
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;D Hi
Part 3.
Pat we don't use our extensive species collection for hybridising. Yes, we do propagate our species. However, from a business point of view we have found it unrewarding because people are not prepared to pay a reasonable price for them and it is one area where we have found people wanting something for nothing. Most of our hybridising these days is done using our extensive collection of fertile miniatures and intermediates. It is involved breeding and you are more likely to end up with advances this way than just doing crosses from the species.
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;D Hi
Part 4.
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;D Hi
Part 5. Our N. tenufolius is a very tiny form that we look after very carefully. It attracts a lot of attention at shows because they are probably the smallest daffodils people have ever seen.
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Narcissus dubius: another interesting very small and dainty looking species flowering for the first time.
Bears clusters of up to 6 pure white flowers, carried on stiff stems. It is slow to increase and is better off in a pot rather than an open border.
This species is flowering just in time to be used in a spot of hybridizing with selected species and other fertile varieties of interest.
Very nice too. I'm just embarking on my third (& last) attempt to grow this species - I've only tried it in pots. What is the secret of success?
I'm trying again too. I suspect the secret lies in moving to Tauranga! I have just sown some seeds. I had bulbs in sunny D, but I think Mark has them now?
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::) Hi
N. dubius is one species that is notable here because it takes approximately 10 years to flower when planted from seed! It likes it hot and dry. It has been used a lot for hybridising by Harold Koopowitz in California.
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Narcissus dubius: another interesting very small and dainty looking species flowering for the first time.
Bears clusters of up to 6 pure white flowers, carried on stiff stems. It is slow to increase and is better off in a pot rather than an open border.
This species is flowering just in time to be used in a spot of hybridizing with selected species and other fertile varieties of interest.
Very nice too. I'm just embarking on my third (& last) attempt to grow this species - I've only tried it in pots. What is the secret of success?
Gerry, sorry no secrets or special attention, apart from a sheltered, sunny position a good baking and drying off hard after flowering.
Let us know in another 10 years how you got on? ;D ;D
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;D ;DHi
N. dubius from seed is something you should do when young. There are a few others that take a similar period. It probably explains why they are not seen in trade all that often.
I have attached a photo of our 1A-A. Photo does not do it justice in terms of colour. Form is pretty poor but there are not many all apricot daffodils around.
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I hope that you both will make some straight species crosses to increase the species.
Pat, you're right, I always grow, sow and straight cross plenty of the species, especially the cyclamineus, triandrus, watierii, dubius, jonquilla, etc.
There is nothing like a potful of the charming Narcissus cyclamineus species in full flight, or dainty Angel Tears, where the flowers can be admired and appreciated at close quarters in perfect condition, despite the cold and wet inclement weather outdoors.
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;D Hi
Part 1. The first flower is very unusual. A miniature cyclamineus hybrid that is both a double and a split cup!
EEEEEEK!!! ;D
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;D Hi
Lesley, it does not look that bad!!! I have a split cup triandus hybrid that does not have a lot going for it!The possum turned up in a deciduous tree near our daffodils. I don't think it got a lot of sleep.
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;DHi
Part 1.
A few apodanthe hybrids to start. I am quite pleased with them, and in particular the ones with three and four florets per stem.
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;D Hi
Part 2. A mixed bag.
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;D Hi
Part 3. A few stunning intermediates.
Did anyone notice the extra special miniature in the last photo? It was bred from our own fertile jonquilla hybrid.
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;D Hi
The double in the previous post is our best intermediate double. It is on a strong stem and performs well for us. We don't grow very good standard doubles but we do grow some good intermediates. It is only just a bit too big for a miniature.
This post is of one of our very different seedlings. It is a cyclamineus hybrid that is both a split cup and a double at the same time. It also has bits of an orange cup. It is just the thing for Lesley!
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;D Hi
The double in the previous post is our best intermediate double. It is on a strong stem and performs well for us. We don't grow very good standard doubles but we do grow some good intermediates. It is only just a bit too big for a miniature.
This post is of one of our very different seedlings. It is a cyclamineus hybrid that is both a split cup and a double at the same time. It also has bits of an orange cup. It is just the thing for Lesley!
Vile.
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She'll love that. Agreed, Gerry.
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I'm not even looking at it.
On the other hand, can someone please identify for me, this little double which is an old one, nicely scented. A few of the inner petals are slightly paler than the others.
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Looks like a lovely older form Lesley. The split shown recently looked very injured.
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Those miniature yellow whites are fantastic.
I am so envious.
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Hi Lesley,
looks like the 'Dubbelle Campernelle'. Narcissus x odorus plenus.
Rob
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Do you think so? This one is only 15cms high and when I used to have the double campernelii it was about 40cms I would say. I also think this is more double, if you know what I mean. On the other hand my memory could be at fault. Thank you though, and I'll keep it in mind.
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Whatever your short double is Lesley it's very nice.
Here's a clump that was originally raised as Narcissus ex lobularis however i am told it is more likely to be N.bambi .
Either way it's a great 'doer'
Cheers Dave.
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;D Hi
The double in the previous post is our best intermediate double. It is on a strong stem and performs well for us. We don't grow very good standard doubles but we do grow some good intermediates. It is only just a bit too big for a miniature.
This post is of one of our very different seedlings. It is a cyclamineus hybrid that is both a split cup and a double at the same time. It also has bits of an orange cup. It is just the thing for Lesley!
Vile.
Agreed - though I don't think Lesley's double is much better. My selection for worst double is 'Rip Van Winkle - hideous.
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I agree about N. 'Rip van Winkle'! After a rainy day it will be flat at the ground and never come up again. I did remove them from my garden.
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On the other hand, can someone please identify for me, this little double which is an old one, nicely scented. A few of the inner petals are slightly paler than the others.
Lesley, I grow an old, antique cultivar called Narcissus eystettensis or Queen Anne's double daffodil, and Gray list it under another old name N.capex plenus.
When grown properly, the flower is more pleasing than Rip van Winkle in that the stem is stronger 6 in. (15 cm) or so in height, with bright yellow double flowers which appear as many rayed yellow stars.
Unfortunately does not flower reliably with us, with only foliage produced this season.
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Here are a few of some of the intermediate and charming miniature seedlings flowering for us at the moment.
A couple of the N. cyclamineus crosses, and two of the N. triandrus hybrid seedlings illuminating the benches in the nursery.
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Two more lots of N.triandrus hybrids brightening up the nursery.
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Very nice Bill. The first cyclamineus seedling looks a lot like Jetfire to me; is the second one really that orange or is it a trick of the light?
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I thought 'Jetfire' too David, though if it is miniature....?
Bill I really like the first of the triandrus seedlings, so very elegant with those delicately arched pedicels.
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Very nice Bill. The first cyclamineus seedling looks a lot like Jetfire to me; is the second one really that orange or is it a trick of the light?
David, the cyclamineus seedling is a crossing between N.Rufes and N.cyclamineus, more reflexed, good contrast, and better form so far
I have crossed it again, and look forward to the next batch of seedlings, if I live long enough ;D ;D
The second is a cross between N.cyclamineus and a sweetly scented, nicely serrated corona, clone/form of N.henriquesii (pictured), the cyclamineus seedling has a good yellow colour, but no orange.
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I do like these tall arching species with such beautiful small flowers. I must look out for N.henriquesii seeds
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Some more seedlings of the Narcissus triandrus X Narcissus cyclamineus species.
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Fencourt Jewel : A very fine, vigorous intermediate pink tazetta variety (Div8)
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Bill your Narcissus triandrus X Narcissus cyclamineus are just yellow jewels,could you put Fencourt Jewel(one of the prettiest pink cups i have seen) onto cyclamineus could be very nice.
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Two miniature varieties of our own raisings made up for a display for our own local daffodil show.
Narcissus "Little Nipper"
Narcissus "Little Flik"
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Bill your Narcissus triandrus X Narcissus cyclamineus are just yellow jewels,could you put Fencourt Jewel(one of the prettiest pink cups i have seen) onto cyclamineus could be very nice.
Dave, not a bad idea, if only. Not sure if Fencourt Jewel pollen would be fertile. Thanks for the compliment. ;D
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Two miniature varieties of our own raisings made up for a display for our own local daffodil show.
Narcissus "Little Nipper"
Narcissus "Little Flik"
Bill - I've had a couple of bulbs of 'Little Flik' for ages & never seen a flower despite giving them a good summer bake. Any advice would be welcome.
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Two miniature varieties of our own raisings made up for a display for our own local daffodil show.
Narcissus "Little Nipper"
Narcissus "Little Flik"
Bill - I've had a couple of bulbs of 'Little Flik' for ages & never seen a flower despite giving them a good summer bake. Any advice would be welcome.
Gerry, I am not sure why your Little Flik did not flower, except to say that I grow my Little Flik's in polystyrene boxes, with plenty of pumice in the mixture for good drainage, and after flowering dry them off hard.
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;DHi
Some photos from the refrigerator. Some people have beer fridges but we have a daffodil refrigerator.Part 1 - some standard daffodils.
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;DHi
Part 2 - more standards.
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;DHi
Part 3 - more standards.
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There's often a clue.... now I see why you grow these different sized daffs, Graham.... it's so they fit in the different sections of the 'fridge! ;) ;D ;D
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Maggie you can fit an awful lot of miniatures into a 400 litre fridge! Part 4. Some special seedlings just for Leslie! I have to admit the split cup triandus hybrid does not have a lot going for it!
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Part 5 - some intermediates. A stock of good intermediates is essential if you are into breeding miniatures.
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Hi
Part 5 - a few species photos.
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;D
Part 7. A few tazettas and some more species.
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;DHi
Part 8 - A few triandus hybrids. So Maggie have you worked out how many daffodils were in the refrigerator?
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;DHi
Part 9 - some cyclamineus hybrids.
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;DHi
Part 10 - some jonquilla hybrids.
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;D Hi
Part 11. Now which Divisions haven't I posted some photos of? 12 and 13?
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;DHi
Part 8 - A few triandus hybrids. So Maggie have you worked out how many daffodils were in the refrigerator?
Minimum of 68 containers, Graham...didn't have time to check the number of daffs! Computer has been poorly and "Doctor" has been so much time taken up with that!
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6Y-W I am just blown away by,what a lovely little thing that is.
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When it comes right down to it, it's hard to beat the pure species. The split cup triandrus reminds me of an occasion when ..... was caught in a combine harvester at home. Shan't mention what it was in case people are upset. I certainly was, for many weeks. :'(
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Graham
Every year you delight us with your 'little treasures' - fantastic.
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Hi
We are somewhat reclusive so this is one way for people to see our hybrids.
Lesley, interesting to note that a lot of people have looked at the split cup triandus!
While it is the end of the season it is an exciting time because we have some truly fantastic late flowering seedlings - miniature and standard flowering. I only took a few photos today but the miniatures are something special.
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;D
Hi
Some apodanthe hybrids.
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Displaying my ignorance of most things Narcissistic, I have to ask what does apodanthe mean? I can only think of, perhaps, sterile, as in a=without and pod=seed, but that doesn't seem likely. :-\ Whatever, they are very nice. :)
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Agree with you Lesley the littlies can come live in our garden anytime.
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Narcissus dubius: another interesting very small and dainty looking species flowering for the first time.
Bears clusters of up to 6 pure white flowers, carried on stiff stems. It is slow to increase and is better off in a pot rather than an open border.
This species is flowering just in time to be used in a spot of hybridizing with selected species and other fertile varieties of interest.
Gerry,
I fully undrstand your frustration with the so desirable N. dubius - I also tried for years, with bulbs from different suppliers, without success. Having seen them grow wild in S. of France and central east Spain in almost desert conditions it is obvious they need a summer baking. At last I had success by having the bulbs held at 25C for 3 months in the summer - after this treatment they all flowered beautifully. The Hot press might be the place to store them.
Brian
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Brian, I would not think there would be anything of interest to you among our "weeds" from the back paddock? Maybe the small red poeticus hybrid or the small 3W-YYR in this post.
Lesley wonders never cease because one of our latest flowering daffodils is an 11W-P!!
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;D
Hi
While the end of our season is in sight here are a few more photos.
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This weekend was the local daffodil show and I saw a little honey I'd not seen before, N. pannizianus.
It wasn't named and fortunately the man I asked what it was (Alan Brown a well known local grower,) happens to have some or will have, in the summer, for sale. I've ordered 3 but thought it better not to ask how much they'd be. ::) Five tiny pure white flowers on the stem, and nicely fragrant. It won a 1st.
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;D
Hi
Lesley, some photos of N. pachybolbus from the archives. It is just starting to flower now so it is very late this year.
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Is this the same as pannizianus? The one in the show was very fine and delicate looking, as if made of fine porcelain. Frustratingly, Wells mentions pannizianus only once, in the introduction to his book and only to the extent of merging something else into it. Nothing about the ssp itself (N. tazetta ssp pannizianus). Alan said it grew to 20cms.
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Lesley Narcissus pachybolbus is a species from north Africa (Algeria for example) from Dubius group. For some authors N. tortifolius is fact N. pachybolbus, and other authors consider N. tortifolius is N. dubius. ???
N. panizzianus, N. papyraceus and N. polyanthos, are considered the same species in Flora Iberica. I only support N. papyraceus and N. panizzianus as different subspecies.
One of the most disctinctive character between N. papyraceus and N. dubius groups, are the section of the scape (circular in N. dubius/N. pachybolbus and N. totifolius, and elipsoidal in N. papyraceus/N. panizzianus)
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Thank you Rafa, that helps me.
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This weekend was the local daffodil show and I saw a little honey I'd not seen before, N. pannizianus.
It wasn't named and fortunately the man I asked what it was (Alan Brown a well known local grower,) happens to have some or will have, in the summer, for sale. I've ordered 3 but thought it better not to ask how much they'd be. ::) Five tiny pure white flowers on the stem, and nicely fragrant. It won a 1st.
Lesley, while on the subject, I also grow this little miniature N.pannizianus as well, it only grows up to 20 cm, but with more flowers per stem, not sure if the same species but still a little treasure. Very early with us, flowering from early August.
Originally I acquired it from the late Max Hamilton a few years ago, a well known, knowledgeable daffodil grower/breeder.
A pity you did not take a picture, how does it compare with the one from the local daffodil show?
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Here are some of the mainly miniature species and varieties we exhibited at home and the local shows in our area.
The weather has been very kind to us the last week, mainly fine with little wind, ideal for showing the mini's.
The daffodil season is slowly coming to the end, with perhaps a few late arrivals and the Narc.poeticus to come.
Enjoy.
N.Angels Whispers
N.Bushtit
N.Dainty Monique
N.Fairy Chimes
N.jonq X N.concolor
N.Judy Cotter
N.Kokopelli
N.Lively Lady
N.Niade
N.Segovia
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Just a few more, let me know if you get sick of them ;D ;D ;D
N.Stocken
N.Tweeny
N,Laura
N.fernandesii
N.Beesknees
N.Pencrebar
N.Sabrosa
N.Sundisc
N.Xit
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Bill
I would give all but N. pncrebar a place in my collection. Stunning plants :)
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Looking at your pics Bill I think the little double I asked about a week or so ago, must be 'Pencrebar.' I quite like it as it happens.
Your pannizianus certainly have many more flowers than the show one Bill but while already my memory is losing it, I seem to remember that it was ENTIRELY white, no touch of yellow at all. I may be wrong about that but it was the pure whiteness that made it stand out for me.
I didn't take my camera in case I was tempted to take pics of some of those huge and appalling things with split cups, muddled centres etc. I would have only done so to be very rude about them, so better not. Your selections on the previous page are lovely and I EAGERLY AWAIT YOUR NEW CATALOGUE!!!!!
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What does Kokopelli mean Bill? There's a place down the road from us called that. They raise alpacas but have a silhouette type picture of what seem to be dancing aborigines, on the mailbox.
I read Bushtit as something else. Better not go there. ::)
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I read Bushtit as something else. Better not go there. ::)
;D ;D ;D
Since the name "Pencrebar" crops up quite a lot in Cornwall (names of farms, places etc.) I had assumed that the original raiser might be have been Alec Grey but it seems not. Daffseek show it as being registered pre 1929.
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What does Kokopelli mean Bill? There's a place down the road from us called that. They raise alpacas but have a silhouette type picture of what seem to be dancing aborigines, on the mailbox.
Lesley, Narcissus Kokopelli is named for the flute-playing fertility Aztec god of the Anasazi Indians, this Jonquil brings a profusion of sweetly scented, two-tone yellow blossoms. 'Kokopelli' is the recipient of an Award of Garden Merit from the Royal Horticultural Society and the Wister Award from the American Daffodil Society. Midseason. The breeder is Kirby Fong from the USA I believe.
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;D
Hi
Kokopelli is a famous hybrid that was bred by Bob Spotts who lives in California in 1993. It is a 7Y-Y and tends to vary from dwarf to standard depending on the climate. Bob Spotts is well known for his amazing viridiflorus hybrids. Most of those who hybridise daffodils on any sort of scale know the other hybridists (I better be careful as that other well known hybridist, Brian Duncan, is known to visit this site).
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Bill you have some amazingly lovely miniatures. I love them all.
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;D
Hi
Kokopelli is a famous hybrid that was bred by Bob Spotts who lives in California in 1993. It is a 7Y-Y and tends to vary from dwarf to standard depending on the climate. Bob Spotts is well known for his amazing viridiflorus hybrids. Most of those who hybridise daffodils on any sort of scale know the other hybridists (I better be careful as that other well known hybridist, Brian Duncan, is known to visit this site).
Graham, thanks for correcting the name of the breeder of this popular cultivar Kokopelli. I was not 100% sure.