Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: Lesley Cox on June 20, 2011, 06:23:49 AM
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Today I received a small packet of what is, ostensibly, Hylomecon japonicum from a generous Forumist who had had to post from the other side of the world to reach me. I don't like to think her time and effort and money were wasted but instead of the small black seeds I expected, maybe about the size of Meconopsis or Lewisia, there was just a small smear of black dust. Does anyone know what these seeds should look like? She was doubtful herself. I'll sow them, maybe over something else but I'd like to know what the seeds should be like. Thanks.
Other times I've had seed of this lovely poppy relative, they have always been one of two Stylophorums. :'(
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This site includes a photo of a pod and some seeds.
http://smith.edu/gardens/bgilib/web/imageFrameset.php?latin_name=Hylomecon+japonicum&cat=1
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the picture has been removed pending proper identification
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Unfortunately that site does not show true Hylomecon japonica but one of the imposters. Seedpods of H. japonica are ~ 2.5 cm long, thin and not hairy. As a matter of fact, there is no hairy part at all on the true species! Seeds are indeed small & black and somewhat flattened seeds but definitely not dustlike, the ones on my plants were already dispersed before I knew it about a fortnight ago so I am afraid Lesley hasn't received the correct item. And apparantly again.
From what I was told, this year through the AGS seedex the imposter was send again so hopefully people at the seedex can recognise the wrong stuff and disappointments can be prevented. Or donors realise they are not sending the right seeds to the seedex. Each pod contains about 20 seeds and should be moist packed because they loose viability fast is my experience, after the seeds are dispersed all that is left of the seedpod is 2 threads connected at the top.
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Sorry Lesley, if the the seeds ? I sent you aren't viable, but I did warn you ;). It's a pity I can't send you a plant instead. My plants are true Hylomecon japonica and the seed pods looked just like Pascal describes them, very thin, 2-3 cm and not a hair on them. Inside were tiny small black grains and I had my doubts but I have never collected seeds from this plant before so didn't know how they should look like.
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Lesley, then I would still sow them and give it a try, usually seedpods of H. japonica abort when they are not fertilized, of the 50+ flowers I only had about 10 that produced a seedpod so the seeds might be viable, I have not yet seen a seedpod without fertile seeds. At least you know you got the right species and not the imposter... ;)
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Here's another site with pictures of hairy seedpods. Obviously not the right thing.
http://theseedsite.co.uk/db10a.html
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I sent Pascal's comment to Smith College.
a very short while later: the plant's picture has been removed until it is properly identified.
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From what I was told, this year through the AGS seedex the imposter was send again so hopefully people at the seedex can recognise the wrong stuff and disappointments can be prevented.
Thanks, Pascal for this information. I'll look out for it this year.
Diane
Acting Seed Manager
AGS Seed Exchange
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My Hylomecon
japonicum japonica did not flower well this year but I found a seed pod still hanging on.
Here are photos of the pod and of it opened.
It is not very big.... I'm sure in better years it would be larger.... and the seed may not be fertile though it does look fat if quite small. :-\
The pod is smooth. As you can see, once it is open there are the two "strings" left.
If it is useful to anyone I can send the full size photo files to show good magnification
Click the pix to enlarge....
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I must say that your seeds Maggi, look more like fertile seeds than the ones I found. Are they hard?
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Well, they are too small to be hard, if you know what I mean. They are firm enough, I suppose, but not exactly very three dimensional!
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From what I was told, this year through the AGS seedex the imposter was send again so hopefully people at the seedex can recognise the wrong stuff and disappointments can be prevented.
Thanks, Pascal for this information. I'll look out for it this year.
Diane
Acting Seed Manager
AGS Seed Exchange
Sorry Diane, didn't mean it like this, I doubt the AGS seedex is the only seedex with Stylophorum seeds send out as imposters for Hylomecon. It takes a tremendous amount of knowledge to identify species by their seeds and no one expects that from a seedex. As a matter of fact, apparantly it is even difficult to recognise Hylomecon at the plantlevel......, the rootcause of it all. Because each year I fail to collect the seeds in time I requested the seeds of it too so I could send it to a friend of mine that I had to disappoint each year. I never closely examined the seedpacket I got and forwarded it straight away. He showed me a picture of the seedlings so now I had no choice but to send him a division as a peace-offer...... ;)
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Sorry Diane, didn't mean it like this, I doubt the AGS seedex is the only seedex with Stylophorum seeds send out as imposters for Hylomecon. It takes a tremendous amount of knowledge to identify species by their seeds and no one expects that from a seedex. As a matter of fact, apparantly it is even difficult to recognise Hylomecon at the plantlevel......, the rootcause of it all. Because each year I fail to collect the seeds in time I requested the seeds of it too so I could send it to a friend of mine that I had to disappoint each year. I never closely examined the seedpacket I got and forwarded it straight away. He showed me a picture of the seedlings so now I had no choice but to send him a division as a peace-offer...... ;)
No problem, Pascal. I'm very happy to have any information to help our continuing process of trying to improve the seed list year on year, which can only be done by sharing knowledge.
I'm rather concerned that I have the plant in question and I haven't looked whether it has set seed this year. I'll check tomorrow.
(Picture below taken in April)
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I'll certainly sow the seed, just in case. The true plant is such a lovely thing and I did have it once from a local source, no longer available, but I found it was exceeding drought sensitive, even more than Meconopsis. The Stylophorum pods are rather shorter and plumper than those illustrated above. Thanks everyone for your help and comments.
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Thankyou Maggi. Although these are small, they are much bigger than what is in my seed packet. It is curious how difficult it is to get the true and fertile seed of some species. Hylomecon is one of them.
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And for those who have asked, there is no seed on my plants, sorry :'(
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Elaine Chittenden, the Manager of Living Collections of the Lyman Conservatory at Smith College,
wrote to thank me for letting her know about the incorrect photo of Hylomecon on their website.
She says they received the Stylophorum lasiocarpum seed from the Scottish Rock Garden Club
in 2000 labelled Hylomecon japonicum.
I guess they would appreciate having the true plant in their botanic garden. Unfortunately, I
don't know of anyone who grows it, though many of us have tried to get the real thing.
I wonder how this long-standing imposter can be foiled. Would it work for all seedexes to have
a five year moratorium on "Hylomecon" seed. Meantime, those few people with the true plant
could be distributing it to public gardens in their area. From then on, only guaranteed true seed
could be distributed.
Diane
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Well Gunilla definitely has the true plant and I think Gote Svanholm also has it. The maddening thing is that a wholesale nursery just an hour down the road from me also has it, and I have had it from them (see remark about drought sensitivity) but they no longer sell to the public and it's not a plant they propagate for garden centres. I could offer diamonds in exchange but I think their proprietor already has many more than I have.
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Hi,
Seed of Primula Kisoana is often Primula Polyneura and of Primula Jesoana, Cortusa. So if you want, Cortusa you ask for P. jesoana.
Therefore what one needs to know is what seed of Hylomecon is sent to the seed ex as, maybe some sort of anenome with yellow flowers.
I wonder if the seed exs could offer seed with a symbol to denote the person submitting it had applied a key to the plant. Currently it is common to have say seeds of various colours of species as separate selections, so not much extra work.
There would then be some incentive for people submitting the right seed, at the moment as I understand things you might submit the right seed and it doesn't happen to get used.
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In my own case David, the several times I've asked for Hylomecon and invariably received Stylophorum, the seed could have been Hylomecon, always small black seeds such as one might expect from a poppy relative. Those who receive the seed for the exchanges could not possibly be blamed for not recognizing it as NOT Hylomecon. The onus here is on those supplying the seed to search for pictures of the two plants and decide which is correct. I imagine one person, perhaps many years ago has made the initial mistake and the Stylophorums (both species) have been re-distributed incorrectly time and again with no-one knowing or caring enough to make a fuss about it. Except me. ::)
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The great imposter in the Hylomecon-Stylophorum seed exchange controversy is, in my experience, rarely Stylophorum (a very well behaved and beautiful plant with extremely distinctive seed pods and seed). It is rare in the wild, throughout its range and endangered in Canada.
Rather it is usually Chelidonium majus, the seed pod more closely resembling Hylomecon, and with seed that is NOT ephemeral. Chelidonium is a rampant plant in the garden & easy from seed. Seeds are distinctly poppy-like.
I do not have a picture of Chelidonium pods---but found this one online, for someone to verify
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/flatbushgardener/168037974/
Despite the vague similarities in the plants, it would be very hard, indeed to mix up Stylophorum diphyllum at the seed pod (or the seed) stage.
Neither Hylomecon nor Chelidonium have the distinctive aril found on Stylophorum diphyllum seed, nor are the seed pods chubby and bristly.
I am attaching pictures of the Stylophorum diphylla collected this morning, which will now be immediately moist packed, as it is ephmeral.
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Yes that's the S. diphyllum all right. And I've been given it a few years ago as S. diphyllum, so no problem there. It grows, is perennial and sets tons of seed which self sows but also germinates well if collected and sown in a pot. I have NOT found it ephemeral, or at least it still germinates well when the aril has dried up and the seeds are smaller and quite dry. Otherwise my donor's seed wouldn't have germinated and nor would the seed I've had as Hylomecon but which were this.
This is the better of the two Stylophorum species in my opinion. S. lasiocarpum is coarser in the foliage, smaller in the flower and generally leggier I think. Both are distributed from the lists as Hylomecon, which it why it is great to find someone like Gunilla who has the genuine plant but it seems it doesn't set much seed.
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I do not have a picture of Chelidonium pods---but found this one online, for someone to verify
Here are some, maybe it is helpful?
Chelidonium majus
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I do not have a picture of Chelidonium pods---but found this one online, for someone to verify
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/flatbushgardener/168037974/
Yes, this link shows Chelidonium majus seed pods but it is incorrectly labelled as "Lesser Celandine" rather than Greater Celandine. Lesser Celandine is Ranunculus ficaria. Both these "Celandines" are invasive weeds here, not to be encouraged.
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I do not have a picture of Chelidonium pods---but found this one online, for someone to verify
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/flatbushgardener/168037974/
Yes, this link shows Chelidonium majus seed pods but it is incorrectly labelled as "Lesser Celandine" rather than Greater Celandine. Lesser Celandine is Ranunculus ficaria. Both these "Celandines" are invasive weeds here, not to be encouraged.
Hear hear!!! These are invasive also here
The funny thing is that I sometimes are warned not to plant this or that invasive species and indeed I do not. I have tried them three times and they promptly died (or at least in the winter.) ???
On the other hand i have seen my worst weeds sold in nurseries!! ???
Göte
PS.
I do indeed have the true Hylomecon japonicum but I do not think I can send any seed this year. It is surprisingly tough but not invasive. A really good woodlander
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At the start of all this, I had my 'hylomecon' identified as Stylophorum lasiocarpum. Here are some photos of the seeds and pods. These came via the seed ex so also must have some capacity to stand being dried out.
(thread started as http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2854.msg197753#msg197753)
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In my experience, the seeds of both Stylophorums are NOT ephemeral but maybe the seeds of the true Hylomecon are?
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A quick Google on hylomecon seed produces a few pages saying that little or no seed is set, and one selling seed (out of stock):
http://www.rareplants.de/shop/prodtype.asp?CAT_ID=1213
which describes "Hylomecon (Wood Poppy), Stylomecon (Wind Poppy) & Stylophorum" together.
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The Stylomecon looks very interesting, and nice. Then there's also Eomecon which has white flowers and wanders about, rampantly, if it likes the conditions. I think it looks like a very inferior form of Romneya.
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I grew stylomecon this year (from a different source). A small poppy (about 3 inches high) which grew, flowered and set seed quickly (about 8 weeks). Very bright flowers. A bit of a contrast to taking 7 years from seed to flower.
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Can I resurrect this thread to retain the previous information on Hylomecon and its imposters.
Can anyone confirm or not whether this seed is Hylomecon japonicum?
Sorry I forgot to include a ruler, but the seeds are exactly 1mm diameter.
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A while back Trond in Norway sent me 2 seeds of the true Hylomecon and 3, I believe to an Australian Forumist who may like to add something here. The seeds I received were round and not black, but a sort of leathery fawn colour but of course they may not have been fertile as they haven't germinated yet.
I'd put a large bet (if I were a gambler) on the seeds in your picture Diane, NOT being Hylomecon, but one of the Stylophorums, though the two I've had both had round seeds.
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Now I've had an enlarged look, yours seem to be round but elongated by shadow. I'd still say not though.
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Can I resurrect this thread to retain the previous information on Hylomecon and its imposters.
Can anyone confirm or not whether this seed is Hylomecon japonica?
Sorry I forgot to include a ruler, but the seeds are exactly 1mm diameter.
I think those look like the "real thing", Diane. I will find my full size photo of my seed and send it to you for comparison. I seem to recall mine were not very "fat" and so may not have been fertile but the shape is the same, I reckon.
Off to find the original photo.......
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I think those look like the "real thing", Diane. I will find my full size photo of my seed and send it to you for comparison. I seem to recall mine were not very "fat" and so may not have been fertile but the shape is the same, I reckon.
Off to find the original photo.......
Thanks Maggi. Is this the photo you meant? It's just earlier on this same thread.
Maggi's Hylomecon japonica (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=7477.msg205437#msg205437 date=1308596449)
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Yes, Diane, that's the photo but I've been trying ( without success :-[ :'( ) to find the original full size picture, which would be of more use to you , since you could really magnify the image.
Sadly I cannot lay hands upon the blasted thing. >:( Sorry!
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Diane, would it be acceptable for you to filch a couple or three seeds from the donation, and sow and grow them on, then assess the plants which eventuate for trueness? Quite literally, every donation of (ostensibly) Hylomecon japonica which has come over the last dozen or so years, has NOT been true, always a Stylophorum. It would be good, if these new ones ARE true, to idenitify a genuine source.
I most fortunately have 3 plants now from my original local source but the flowers are showing no signs of setting seed. I'm hand pollinating every flower but of course they are all divisions from the same clone. Stylophorum species set seed as easily as Iceland poppies!
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If there is not an unwieldy number of donors, could you keep all
the donations separate this year, and attach the donors' initials
to the packets? (This is done by the RHS Lily Group, and I always
keep the donor's names on the labels). Then when the plants
flower, the donors of proper seed could be identified.
Or maybe one member, or a public garden, could grow out a sample
from each of the donors.
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I never know Hylomecon japonica were so difficult to get. I have what I think is the true Hylomecon, and both Stylophorums. And Chelidonium majus seeds around even though I keep pulling it out.
I got my Hylomecon japonica as tubers in the fall from the someone in the Ontario Rock Garden Society. They have not spread much if at all.
I find Hylomecon, and Stylophorums to grow quite differently. Hylomecon is much shorter, and blooms earlier. It then goes underground, whereas Stylophorum stays green all summer. I have never looked at Hylomecon leaves closely, but I don't think they are close to looking like any of the others.
I have a closer look and try to collect seed next spring.
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Hylomecon japonica and Stylophorum diphyllum opened today - so Hylomecon does not bloom earlier as I stated above. Mine is the true Hylomecon japonica.
Since I have all 4 plants in question I will document them in pictures this spring, and watch for Hylomecon seeds.
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I do wish you well in a quest for seeds on your Hylomecon, Robert. No-one seems to manage it. I too (now) have a true plant but it didn't flower this last spring though it did the year before when I first bought it from a local nursery (now gone into retirement, unfortunately so I can't get some more as I'd like to do). But because I was moving, my bought plants (3) had to live in pots for some time and they don't like that. The little bit still alive from a single pot, was planted out as soon as I had a suitable place and looked fine through the spring and summer. Now in latish autumn there is a small leaf, rather sad and dark but still indubitably alive so I'm hoping it will come through the (currently dry) autumn/winter and do something more vigorous in the coming spring. It HATES to be dry!
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I collected Hylomecon seeds this week. Every pod except 1 had small seeds - 1mm long. One pod had 2 seeds, that were 2.5 mm in length. The shape of both is oval or cucumber shaped with the length about twice the width. Small ones are fairly dark, and the large ones are light brown colour.
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Has anyone successfully grown Hylomecon from seed and has a picture of the seed they used?
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Has anyone successfully grown Hylomecon from seed and has a picture of the seed they used?
Robert, I don't think your seed pod looks correct, as I thought Hylomecon has long pods which split along the length.
I have grown what I think is Hylomecon from seed which came damp packed from Japan, the picture of the seed was taken in November 2012. The seed germinated in March 2013, with more germination in March 2014. The first seedling flowered in 2014. The seed pod picture is Maggi's, the other pictures are mine. It has never set good seed with me, including from an older plant which was bought as a plant.
I am a bit puzzled by a remark earlier on this thread which says that hylomecon is not hairy at all, as these seed grown plants certainly are. But they set long seed pods which I thought were diagnostic (although not containing fertile seed). I'd be really pleased to hear any more thoughts on this subject as it's something I've been trying to unravel for years.
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And to add to the mystery, here is my original plant which was bought as a plant, which is somewhat different from the plants grown from seed. The seed grown plants are more upright and sturdier, with almost woody stems. The shape of the teeth on the leaf are also different.
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I have had a look at my plants. The seed pod is not hairy but there are hair on other parts of the plant.
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Diane and Gunilla, your plants certainly look right, not the Stylophorum that most turn out to be. As a mature plant, the leaves are somewhat Astilbe-like. Diane, would you share please, the Japanese source of your plants if you feel able to do so?
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My Hylomecon japonica -plant looks just like the one in Gunilla's picture, and it has long seed pods (I opened one and there were seeds but they were still white and not mature, I don't know if they are fertile or not, I will keep an eye on them). I will have to check if they are hairy or not.
Diane's japanese Hylomecon sounds very interesting.
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Diane - not sure why you said "Robert, I don't think your seed pod looks correct, as I thought Hylomecon has long pods"? I think my comments were about the seeds, not the pod.
I believe the comment about hairs, by another poster, referred to the seed pod, not the plant. The plant has hairs, but the seed pod is hairless.
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I have completed a post on my blog, GardenMyths.com comparing Hylomecon japonica with it's three imposters; Stylophorum diphyllum, Stylophorum lasiocarpum and Chelidonium majus. Please let me know if you find any mistakes.
http://www.gardenmyths.com/hylomecon-japonica-which-is-the-real-plant/ (http://www.gardenmyths.com/hylomecon-japonica-which-is-the-real-plant/)
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Haven't time to look at your blog now Robert, appointment in half an hour and I'm late already but will do, later today.
I think your picture Leena, says all the right things about the Hylomecon. It is very beautiful and choice - look at the company it's keeping :) - and for a cool, dampish place, semi-shade. It's great to see several plants among members.
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Thanks Leslie. :)
Robert, a good posting showing well the difference in the leaves of the four species. I think it is easiest to tell them apart from the leaves and the fact that H.japonica goes dormant in early summer.
Here Chelidonium majus grows as a weed (I also once had fl pl but it disappeared), and I've grown both Stylophorum species but S.diphyllum died at some point and I don't know if S.lasiocarpum is alive either (it survived longer). I didn't like neither Stylphorums so much (they reminded me too much of C.majus, though they were different) and so they got neglected and other plants grew over them, but Hylomecon japonica is my favourite.
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My H.japonica usually goes dormant early as well, but not this year. It is a bit yellow, but all of the leaves are still present as of today. We did have more regular rain and cooler temperatures this year. It has been quite a cool summer.
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I have the chance to conclude the discussions here with pictures of Hylomecon vernalis (syn. H. japonica) seeds taken on grid paper.
For final comparison I'll add the capsules and seeds of Stylophorum lasiocarpum and S. diphyllum.
Interesting to note that although the Hylomecon pod is very similar with that of S. lasiocarpum (minus hairs), the seeds are closer to those of S. diphyllum (though a bit smaller).
And to answer before someone will ask, no, the seeds are not from mine/or friends plants growing here. They never set seeds, or at best very few.
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Dianne Whitehead,
I know this is off topic but interesting, I hope. I noticed your signature and realized that I'm less than 300 miles south of you; and we get 50+ inches of rain [ about 110 cm]. Portland gets about what what you get, and so does Salem. I have no idea why we get so much more; except that there is a high ridge between me and Dallas that the rain may have difficulty crossing. I am about 28 miles SSW of Salem and about 8 miles SW of Dallas.