Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Darren on May 28, 2011, 09:10:01 PM

Title: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Darren on May 28, 2011, 09:10:01 PM
 Fritillaria davidii capsule and seed.







Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on May 29, 2011, 02:07:46 AM
Very well done Darren. I hope these photos get as far as the Frit Group Bulletin and wasn't it Mathew who said there was no record of seed in cultivation or words to that effect? Or that seed capsules had never been observed? So your pictures are of an historic nature and importance.
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on May 29, 2011, 09:49:31 AM
I agree, Lesley, this is an important observation/event..... have moved this to its own thread!
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on May 29, 2011, 10:00:11 AM
Hi Darren
Good to see you got Fritillaria davidii seed. Chris Norton & I have also managed to get seed this year. At the Spring Fritillaria Group meeting Chris had a plant (I believe from the Wallis's) which was in bud but not yet fully open. I had another which was in flower (traceable to a Chen Yi import in 2001) and which was clearly a different clone - shorter, more rounded leaves than Chris's and with the flowers much more yellow with less tesselation. I suggested that I would save pollen from my plant and post it to him once his was open. We did this and he manged to get two pods. Bob Charman took pictures of the pods (which I have not yet seen) and I took pictures of the seed once Chris sent me some.

What have you done with your seed? We decided the best thing to do was to sow it immediately. I have put my pot outside in cool shade and will keep it moist. Fingers crossed.

Paul

Here are pictures of the seed next to a ruler (marked in millimetres) and of the flower on my plant:

Fritillaria davidii seed
Fritillaria davidii flower


Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on May 29, 2011, 10:09:58 AM
It seems to me that this year it has been lucky that assorted factors have worked out to provide the necessary conditions for seed formation..... now to work out what all those factors were for you guys!
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: arisaema on May 29, 2011, 10:22:14 AM
Has anyone managed to flower it in the open garden? I'm not sure where I should plant mine, a moist spot in full sun, or half shade?
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on May 29, 2011, 12:51:31 PM
Has anyone managed to flower it in the open garden? I'm not sure where I should plant mine, a moist spot in full sun, or half shade?
Martyn Rix & Brian Mathew (in Curtis's Botanical Magazine, 2000) refer to plants "put out in a woodland situation in south-west England, in Devon, [which] have survived but not flowered."
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: JohnLonsdale on May 29, 2011, 01:23:17 PM
It is hardy to at least 4F without snow cover planted out in a raised bed/frame here. The bed froze like an ice block each winter.  I had it for 4 or 5 years from a Chinese introduction where it increased in size and vigor annually but never flowered, then I moved it into the garden when I dismantled the frame.  I haven't looked at it recently but it certainly hasn't flowered.  It favors partial shade in a soil that does not dry out in summer.  Each year it made new leaves in September/October and went dormant in May.

Best,

John
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: arisaema on May 29, 2011, 01:33:26 PM
Thank you both for the comments! It survived -20C/-4F in a pot my cold frame this last winter, so it really is bone hardy. If it prefers partial shade for you John, in Pennsylvania, it would probably be happier with full sun here in Norway.
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Darren on May 30, 2011, 10:31:22 AM
The seed was sown immediately Paul, exactly as you did, and some sent to another grower as extra insurance who did the same.

Your story is similar to mine - the pollen parent was very similar to your 'Chen Yi' clone and both were in flower together at the Hexham show. I do not yet know if the reverse cross worked. Two capsules formed on mine but I lost one as the stem became damaged further down.

Just repotted the seed parent and was delighted to find a lot of very large bulbs this year (up to 5cm across in one case).





Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Darren on December 01, 2011, 02:29:24 PM
Ian posted a picture of the first of his share of the seeds germinating back in August. It took a few more weeks (late september) before any of mine popped up despite being sown on the same day. I am happy to report I now have 14 seedlings (see picture) which seem to be doing well.

I have also posted a close up to show that some of the seedlings are now growing true leaves alongside the cotyledon.
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: shelagh on December 03, 2011, 10:37:13 AM
Great news Darren, well done.
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: chasw on December 03, 2011, 11:57:00 AM
Well done,I never managed to ever get mine in flower,

 Paul is Chen Yi still in business,I did deal with her for a while ,then suddenly all went quiet,I wondered if she was getting hastle from the authorities
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: art600 on December 03, 2011, 03:15:46 PM
Chen Yi is certainly in business.

She send out an extensive list this year - fingers crossed there have been no natural disasters  to reduce what is available this year.
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on December 03, 2011, 06:46:54 PM
Search and ye shall find ;D

http://chenyinursery.com/
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: chasw on December 03, 2011, 09:03:37 PM
Thanks David  :)
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Janis Ruksans on December 04, 2011, 05:50:11 AM
Fritillaria davidii is her (Chen-yi) Fritillaria sp. # 4. Mine form received from her turned week grower, I lost it and no one flowered. The form from Bob and Ranweig is much more vigorous and it seem (by leaves) that next spring will be very good blooming although I never got seeds from it. From other side - I never tried to handpollinate it. May be it is selfsterile and I need another clone for seeds.
Janis
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on December 04, 2011, 10:16:28 AM
Search and ye shall find ;D

http://chenyinursery.com/

Direct from the wild to your garden - allegedly.
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on December 04, 2011, 06:18:01 PM
Search and ye shall find ;D

http://chenyinursery.com/

Direct from the wild to your garden - allegedly.

I wouldn't be at all surprised. Personally I wouldn't order from her.
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Janis Ruksans on December 05, 2011, 01:51:13 PM
Search and ye shall find ;D

http://chenyinursery.com/

Direct from the wild to your garden - allegedly.

I don't think that all are from wild. A lot of frits are cultivated in China for medical purposes (I saw pictures with pallidiflora, ussuriensis, walujewii on field planted in long lines). If bulbs would come from wild they would be of different sizes, but those which many years ago I got from her where all very uniform in shape and size. Such usually are cultivated bulbs. Of course - only few were corectly named. In several cases under various names I got one species. Most curious was when under name of Scilla I twice got Polygonum (never got any real Scilla). I don't know how it was with Arisaema and Orchids and others. Personally I ordered only frits, Corydalis and Scilla. Corydalis by size of tubers could be wild collected, although they are cultivated in China for medical purposes, too. Those Arisaeamas which offered PCh, certainly were from this Chinese lady and most were incorrectly named (such information I got from my foreigen friends loving Arisaemas too much - by my opinion).
Janis
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on December 05, 2011, 05:01:49 PM
Ever since Chinese frits started appearing in the UK some years ago there have been allegations that at least some of them  have been looted from the wild  - allegations which are difficult to prove or disprove. Some are certainly cultivated for medicinal use; see, for example, this paper by  Leon, Fay & Rix:

www.kew.org/science/ecbot/papers/leon2009fritillaria.pdf

However, it appears that not all the useful species are amenable to commercial cultivation & some are endangered. I have never seen any reference to F. davidii being used medicinally.
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Rann on October 16, 2013, 10:27:29 AM
Hi Ian & Paul,

I am very interested in your observations of the seed of this strange species.  Are the seeds are as flat as most species and are they more fleshy? Is the capsule stiff and upright, or collapsing like the Japanese species?

Many thanks

Rannveig
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Rann on October 16, 2013, 10:29:17 AM
Hi Darren & Paul,

I am very interested in your observations of the seed of this strange species.  Are the seeds are as flat as most species and are they more fleshy? Is the capsule stiff and upright, or collapsing like the Japanese species?

Many thanks

Rannveig
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on October 16, 2013, 11:24:35 AM
Hi Rannveig,
If memory serves, the seeds were fairly typical, flat like most species, though perhaps a little thicker and small in overall size (see photo near the start of this topic). I honestly can't remember what the capsule was like and sadly didn't take any pictures. The seedlings have, for the first time, this year produced leaves that are of adult size, but I doubt the bulbs themselves are yet big enough to flower.
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on October 16, 2013, 11:27:41 AM
Welcome, Rannveig,  nice to "see" you here.  :)

On the first post  (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=7348.msg203126#msg203126)of this thread  ( previous page) Darren shows photos of both the seed pod and seeds.
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Darren on October 16, 2013, 03:17:22 PM
Happily I can report the seedlings are looking good this autumn and I reckon are only a year or so off flowering. They seem to me to be more vigorous than either parent clone. Thanks to Wilma and Jim Wright I now have offsets of the pollen parent too and hope for a repeat performance in future though my plants of the seed parent have done very poorly for the last two seasons.

To confirm - the seeds are, as Paul says, a bit thicker and smaller than the usual papery seeds, and quite pale in colour too.

As hinted by the pictures - the capsule is held quite straight on a stem at about 45 degrees and has odd pustules on it. It dehisces whilst still green so vigilance is needed. I may still have a picture of the whole plant with the capsules developing which will illustrate this better. I won't be able to post it for a couple of days though.
Title: Re: FRITILLARIA DAVIDII FRUITING 2011
Post by: Darren on October 16, 2013, 10:38:42 PM
Found them sooner than I thought. Here is the sequence.

First picture is late April - about a month after pollination. At this stage the leaves are dying back but the two fruiting stems (and their leaves behind the capsules) stayed green and remained green until the capsule was mature - long after the basal leaves had gone.

In early may one capsule aborted because the stem was eaten through by a snail lower down. This picture shows the aborted seeds which were clearly immature and only half the size of the eventual successful ones.

Only a few days later (may 17th) the stem leaves on the mature capsule began to yellow. Then the stem seemed to weaken and shrivel almost overnight, the stem leaves became fully yellow and the capsule dehisced.

So - I do recall that the stem weakened and collapsed immediately as the capsule matured, as Rannveig suggests happens with the Japanese species but as I don't grow any I can't comment further.

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