Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: Gerry Webster on February 03, 2011, 12:51:36 PM

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 03, 2011, 12:51:36 PM

Narcissus romieuxii

A selection by Fred Hunt. This is very similar to 'Atlas Gold'.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 03, 2011, 07:14:24 PM

But taller perhaps? or maybe that's because all my AG are grown outside in the weather. Don't think AG has the green on the back either. The colour of Fred's is very good and rich.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 03, 2011, 07:30:56 PM

Quote from: Lesley Cox on February 03, 2011, 07:14:24 PM

But taller perhaps? or maybe that's because all my AG are grown outside in the weather. Don't think AG has the green on the back either. The colour of Fred's is very good and rich.

Shorter as grown by me - outside until flowering. I'll check on the green back tomorrow,  Re your earlier remarks on the scent of AG; Fred's has a faint but detectable scent. I suppose 40 years plus of Gauloises has done nothing for my olfactory organs.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 04, 2011, 03:45:08 PM

Now this is one I really like as it's the first Narcissus I've ever grown from seed to flowering. Obtained from SRGC Seed Ex. 2006/7 and came titled Narcissus romieuxii 'Primrose Yellow'. Sown 29 August 2007 and the only one left from 10 seeds sown.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on February 04, 2011, 03:52:23 PM

New to these.  Is upward facing unusual.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 04, 2011, 04:36:44 PM

Really beautiful plants, specially to me this "Atlas Gold"
This is N. cantabricus with a new gardener..

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 04, 2011, 04:54:37 PM

Rafa!! You have a puppy..... give us more pictures,  please tell us everything about him/her......  in this thread....http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6476.90


 Never mind the flowers.... I need to  meet that puppy!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gail on February 04, 2011, 04:58:27 PM

Quote from: Maggi Young on February 04, 2011, 04:54:37 PM

Rafa!! You have a puppy..... give us more pictures,  please tell us everything about him/her......  in this thread....http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6476.90
 Never mind the flowers.... I need to  meet that puppy!

Seconded - and I'm sure will be carried unanimously. That is one gorgeous puppy!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 04, 2011, 05:05:24 PM

Quote from: Gail on February 04, 2011, 04:58:27 PM

Quote from: Maggi Young on February 04, 2011, 04:54:37 PM

Rafa!! You have a puppy..... give us more pictures,  please tell us everything about him/her......  in this thread....http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6476.90
 Never mind the flowers.... I need to  meet that puppy!

Seconded - and I'm sure will be carried unanimously. That is one gorgeous puppy!

Ian has just arrived home to see the puppy..... he declares himself in love..... beautiful puppy, already appreciating the narcissus and wearing a tartan collar.... what a heart stealer.....  :D

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Roma on February 04, 2011, 05:10:32 PM

I agree with Gail and Maggi, Rafa.  Beautiful puppy.  I don't go all gooey over human babies, but baby animals....... :) :) :)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 04, 2011, 07:43:22 PM

The narcissus are beautiful too - especially the little ones at the front.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 05, 2011, 10:31:22 AM

Thank you friends!
I coudn't have give her a different patterned collar beign a pet member of SRGC  :)

Anne the first N. cantabricus pot is the tipical form, or lineaje you can see in central Spain, short "escapo" and very heterogeneus corona form. There are typical forms, almost inverted corona, petunioids, sub petunioids, sub sub petunioids, sub sub sub ..... In adition there are no so brilliant white than populations in Extremadura. I consider Madrid has the purest populations of N. cantabricus, because there are not  much chromosomic introgresion with other bulbocodium than in other places like Extremadura or Ciudad Real.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 05, 2011, 10:48:29 AM

Quote from: ArnoldT on February 04, 2011, 03:52:23 PM

New to these.  Is upward facing unusual.

Arnold - I am no expert on bulbocodiums but in my (limited) experience the angle of the flower to the stem (scape) is extremely variable. It can range from slightly drooping, via horizontal to upward facing.

If you get seriously obsessed by these fascinating plants may I suggest you try to get hold of Narcissus: A Guide to Wild Daffodils by John Blanchard (Alpine Garden Society, 1990).

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on February 05, 2011, 02:51:09 PM

Gerry:

I have the book.  I had a look and Blanchard does say some of the N. romieuxii have flowers 'ascending' which I interpret as upward facing.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM

Quote from: ArnoldT on February 05, 2011, 02:51:09 PM

Gerry:

I have the book.  I had a look and Blanchard does say some of the N. romieuxii have flowers 'ascending' which I interpret as upward facing.

Arnold - Yes I think so. Either angled upwards or straight up. Some forms of  N. bulbocodium & N. cantabricus are similar.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Alex on February 05, 2011, 07:48:48 PM

Narcissus cantabricus petunioides today. There are many stems, and support is difficult, so the plant can look rather floppy, but otherwise this is my favourite Narcissus and the scent is fabulous.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: johnw on February 06, 2011, 02:50:19 AM

Quote from: Alex on February 05, 2011, 07:48:48 PM

Narcissus cantabricus petunioides today. There are many stems, and support is difficult, so the plant can look rather floppy, but otherwise this is my favourite Narcissus and the scent is fabulous.

Good grief a repeat performance of last year!  :o :o :o

johnw

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 06, 2011, 09:19:13 AM

Quote from: Alex on February 05, 2011, 07:48:48 PM

Narcissus cantabricus petunioides today. There are many stems, and support is difficult, so the plant can look rather floppy, but otherwise this is my favourite Narcissus and the scent is fabulous.

Fantastic Alex.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Casalima on February 06, 2011, 04:18:19 PM

Another one from my nascent Narcissus collection: 'Joy Bishop'.
(Photos still difficult to take in cramped space and with a camera with a broken screen :)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 06, 2011, 04:36:16 PM

Lovely portrait shots of 'Joy Bishop' even if you are having problems, Chloe.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 06, 2011, 06:57:21 PM

It really is a cracker, Alex. The ones you gave me are just in bud.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 06, 2011, 06:58:59 PM

Also - I like Joy Bishop, it is a lovely simple shape.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 06, 2011, 07:45:49 PM

What a lovely pot full Alex.

Very "arty" shots those Chloe, I'd be proud of those.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on February 06, 2011, 08:05:53 PM

Quote from: Alex on February 05, 2011, 07:48:48 PM

Narcissus cantabricus petunioides today. There are many stems, and support is difficult, so the plant can look rather floppy, but otherwise this is my favourite Narcissus and the scent is fabulous.

Gorgeous potful Alex !!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Casalima on February 06, 2011, 08:15:53 PM

Thank you Maggi, Anne and David.

David, I think it's a cousin of your very pretty upward pointing 'Primrose Yellow'. Actually I've just checked my list of bulb acquisitions from last August and it is from LucandLuc at the Mid-Anglia Bulb Sale - thank you LucandLuc!!

Anne, it's simple, but with a sweet scalloped edge.

Alex - those cantabricus are very beautiful!!!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 06, 2011, 09:11:31 PM

How wonderful to see such a display of the true petunioides. Snowy white and fully flared, they could come from 'Swan Lake.' :D

And as for the puppy, he's utterly gorgeous. What name please Rafa? With paws like those you won't ever need a spade. ::)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 07, 2011, 06:28:40 PM

Quote from: Lesley Cox on February 06, 2011, 09:11:31 PM

How wonderful to see such a display of the true petunioides. Snowy white and fully flared, they could come from 'Swan Lake.' :D

And as for the puppy, he's utterly gorgeous. What name please Rafa? With paws like those you won't ever need a spade. ::)

hahah she will be very useful specially agaisnt hard snow... her name is Althea, here some pictures http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6476.msg184555#new

Here a picture comparing Narcissus jaqcuemoudii (bigger one) and Narcissus graellsii.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 08, 2011, 08:48:46 AM

I begin to despair of Narcissi that we have labelled as certain species in cultivation, so often they look unlike those you show us Rafa. Is there a good key available anywhere?
Meanwhile, here are some of my plants in flower now. The hybrids are mixed clones, to show the variation you can get from seed. In the last potful, a cross between a petunioid romieuxii and Atlas Gold, many of the hybrids have split coronas, and in fact there was only one of the bulbs that was worth keeping. I'll have to post them individually, as the server can't seem to take more at once.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 08, 2011, 08:49:41 AM

Next up-

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 08, 2011, 08:50:14 AM

And again-

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 08, 2011, 08:52:33 AM

This is a quite ordinary flower shape, but very vigorous and free flowering. It surprised me this year by producing a flower on seeds sown in 2009.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 08, 2011, 08:53:35 AM

Lastly, a single bulb of the aptly named 'Mondieu'.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 08, 2011, 10:32:16 AM

A very nice collection Anne. I particularly like the one you describe as 'ordinary'!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 08, 2011, 11:02:53 AM

 ;D What I meant was - it's not a fancy frilly one. It is nice.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerdk on February 08, 2011, 06:46:17 PM

Flowering some time before the Cazorla type this is Narcissus hedraeanthus from the Desfiladero de Despeñaperros  - the ravine of the down falling dogs (if I translate correctly).

Gerd

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Alex on February 08, 2011, 10:40:29 PM

Hi Anne,

Glad those bulbs I sent are doing well. Your Crocus baytopiorum are thriving here, and they are my favourite of the forms I grow since they alone do not etiolate when in flower!

I love that Narcissus Mondieu, a beautiful big, flat corona.

 

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: bettyclark on February 09, 2011, 03:57:35 AM

To all those wonderful people trying to identfy my Tazetta patulus or ochreolucuc.   It is growing here 50km from christchurch outside , no not in [pot in very sunshine locality wher we have up to 10 d of frostand this flowers in April May.  Ask Leslie to confirm this.  Has been sent all over the world after all this has taken thirty years, Leslie saw this in flowere and I have photos but I am not computer savvy and am sitting here at 89 years and want help and cant seem to find it. When I press the Search button i get do you meen somthing out of this world and noy evan a plant let alone a bulb.  Ther is nowher in my area a person I can ask for help. nd pleas i cant even correct my spelling.  Your very old fustrated bulb grower who would love contact from other growers and then I can Lie down.   betty clark   up from Leslie south Island.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: John Kitt on February 09, 2011, 05:18:16 AM

Hi bettyclark,

Good to have you on the forum. There are lots of forumists who will help. JUST ASK.

And it is great to have another experienced lady who can share knowledge and skills with we learners.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Hillview croconut on February 09, 2011, 08:57:53 AM

Hi Guys,

I'd like to join in this conversation - I'm Marcus Harvey from Tasmania where I own a specialist plant nursery.

Anne, I'm interested in your Mondieu - I am surprised to see this plant already in the UK. Is there someone offering it for sale there?

Cheers, Marcus

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: WimB on February 09, 2011, 03:37:32 PM

This small one is flowering here for the first time this year:

Narcissus hedraeanthus

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 09, 2011, 04:59:01 PM

Nice hedraeanthus Wim and Gerd.

Lovely collection Anne. I liked Mondieu but to me it looks not unlike many of the petunioid forms. Or am I just being an old fuddy duddy?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 09, 2011, 05:24:23 PM

Quote from: WimB on February 09, 2011, 03:37:32 PM

This small one is flowering here for the first time this year:

Narcissus hedraeanthus

Very nice Wim.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 09, 2011, 05:27:09 PM

Hi David, it's just BIG. Welcome Marcus, we hear your name often on the forum. Mondieu came to me as a gift from a friend in the US. Is it one of yours?
Gerd, your hedreanthus is very distinct and nice - mine are very short like Wim's.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 09, 2011, 05:32:37 PM

Yes, Gerd's hedraeanthus is both distinctive  & attractive. Perhaps its height is a consequence of being fed on dead dog?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerdk on February 09, 2011, 06:56:39 PM

Quote from: Gerry Webster on February 09, 2011, 05:32:37 PM

Yes, Gerd's hedraeanthus is both distinctive  & attractive. Perhaps its height is a consequence of being fed on dead dog?

No dead dogs around here - (is this a common saying?)  :)
The height of the Desfiladero type is a genetic factor - the specimen from the Sierra de Cazorla are always much shorter - just as the outstanding ones from Wim.
Gerd

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: WimB on February 09, 2011, 07:00:11 PM

Gerd,

I had never seen or heard about a N. hedraeanthus with that height. Thanks for showing, it's very nice and a good grown specimen.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 09, 2011, 07:04:27 PM

Quote from: Gerdk on February 09, 2011, 06:56:39 PM

Quote from: Gerry Webster on February 09, 2011, 05:32:37 PM

Yes, Gerd's hedraeanthus is both distinctive  & attractive. Perhaps its height is a consequence of being fed on dead dog?

No dead dogs around here - (is this a common saying?)  :)
The height of the Desfiladero type is a genetic factor - the specimen from the Sierra de Cazorla are always much shorter - just as the outstanding ones from Wim.
Gerd

No Gerd. I just though it likely that the  'Despeñaperros' might have died as a result of the fall.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 09, 2011, 07:47:09 PM

One from the greenhouse today-Narcissus x susannae. This a one a gift from Gerd. Thank you Gerd.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 09, 2011, 08:02:49 PM

Narcissus x susannae ( given a new name now, I think, if I read Rafa's recent posts correctly.....  one of my ABSOLUTE favourites.... look at her... she is gorgeous!!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 09, 2011, 08:11:24 PM

Quote from: Maggi Young on February 09, 2011, 08:02:49 PM

Narcissus x susannae ( given a new name now, I think, if I read Rafa's recent posts correctly.....  one of my ABSOLUTE favourites.... look at her... she is gorgeous!!

I know, but it's such a long name, and I'd have to check the spelling. Anyway at my age it's nearly bed time. ;D

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Diane Clement on February 09, 2011, 08:21:34 PM

Quote from: Maggi Young on February 09, 2011, 08:02:49 PM

Narcissus x susannae ( given a new name now, I think, if I read Rafa's recent posts correctly.....  one of my ABSOLUTE favourites.... look at her... she is gorgeous!!  

Not "one of" for me, it IS my absolute favourite.  I just love the crystalline white of cantabricus, and I love the shape of triandrus, and here they come together.  Thanks for posting it, David.  I think Rafa now calls it Narcissus x litigiosus or N x matritensis.  Perhaps the Narcissus King would enlighten us (again, sorry!)  

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 09, 2011, 08:30:32 PM

Welcome as a poster to the Forum Betty. At 89 you may be our oldest poster or at least the oldest to START posting. Well done. We all know that life goes on while there is something to look forward to in the garden or among the seed pots.

I do confirm Betty's note about her beautifuk Narcissus. I hope the two she gave me will flower so I can show it here at the right flowering time, late autumn.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerdk on February 09, 2011, 08:32:51 PM

Quote from: Gerry Webster on February 09, 2011, 07:04:27 PM

Quote from: Gerdk on February 09, 2011, 06:56:39 PM

Quote from: Gerry Webster on February 09, 2011, 05:32:37 PM

Yes, Gerd's hedraeanthus is both distinctive  & attractive. Perhaps its height is a consequence of being fed on dead dog?

No dead dogs around here - (is this a common saying?)  :)
The height of the Desfiladero type is a genetic factor - the specimen from the Sierra de Cazorla are always much shorter - just as the outstanding ones from Wim.
Gerd

No Gerd. I just though it likely that the  'Despeñaperros' might have died as a result of the fall.

Sorry Gerry,
sometimes I'm a bit slow on the uptake, especially concerning another
language thin mine!  :-[

Gerd

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 09, 2011, 09:08:16 PM

David, it's beautiful whatever you call it. x litigiosus sounds like some sort of law suit. :-\

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 09, 2011, 09:12:08 PM

Quote from: Gerdk on February 09, 2011, 08:32:51 PM

Quote from: Gerry Webster on February 09, 2011, 07:04:27 PM

Quote from: Gerdk on February 09, 2011, 06:56:39 PM

Quote from: Gerry Webster on February 09, 2011, 05:32:37 PM

Yes, Gerd's hedraeanthus is both distinctive  & attractive. Perhaps its height is a consequence of being fed on dead dog?

No dead dogs around here - (is this a common saying?)  :)
The height of the Desfiladero type is a genetic factor - the specimen from the Sierra de Cazorla are always much shorter - just as the outstanding ones from Wim.
Gerd

No Gerd. I just though it likely that the  'Despeñaperros' might have died as a result of the fall.

Sorry Gerry,
sometimes I'm a bit slow on the uptake, especially concerning another
language thin mine!  :-[

Gerd

No need for apologies Gerd. If you had attempted a similar joke in German I would have been at a complete loss.
Gerry

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Hillview croconut on February 09, 2011, 09:40:14 PM

Hi Anne,

No "Mondieu" was bred by Rod Barwick of Glenbrook Bulb Farm here in Tasmania, it is one of many cultivars that he has created. I think he regards it as too big for successful exhibition and not in the same league as some of his others like, "Ben'Bler", "Mitimoto", "Smarple"or "Spoirot". Some of these have won multiple Gold Medals in the USA and have been shown on the Forum before by Fermi.
Are any of these in the UK? Probably his most famous miniature is the triandrus hybrid, "Angel's Whisper". Are you growing this?

Cheers, Marcus

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 09, 2011, 09:55:47 PM

I remember forumist "Ragged Robin" mentioning N. 'Angel's Whisper' so it must be about in Europe.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 09, 2011, 10:09:22 PM

Robin had hers from me and mine came from Marcus. It's very vigorous. It was a roundabout journey to the Swiss Alps. A friend of Robin's was in NZ and picked up the bulbs from her friend/relative who happened to be one of my market vendors, I having the day before taken them to him. Robin's friend then took them to the UK where Robin was at the time and then to her Alpine home. I hope they've established well. :)

All courtesy of the Forum as I'd posted a picture of 'Angel's Whisper' in the spring of 2009. :D

We haven't heard from Ragged Robin for a long time. Presumably she's still "lost in the mointains of Valais?"

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Hillview croconut on February 09, 2011, 10:39:43 PM

Hi Guys,

Hi Guys,
That is an amazingly convoluted journey for a little bulb from Claremont, Tasmania! Still it has strutted the some of the biggest exhibition stages in the world so I guess it won't be too phased. There's something almost omnipresent about being able to be in so many places all at the one time 8).

Rod has new wizz bang creation, called "Sad'Husser" pronunced 'Seducer". It is a miniature pink cup, Premier Award, Australasian Championsips in Aukland NZ 2007 at $60 a shot its gotta be good.

New ones rolling out on the production line include a new triandrus of the Angel series, Angel's End (must the last one?) and some N. canaliculatus hybrids, "Canavenice", "Canasuez" and "Canapanama" - likes to play with words this fellow.

Cheers, Marcus

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: rob krejzl on February 10, 2011, 02:37:21 AM

Quote

at $60 a shot its gotta be good.

I hope so, though the $60 is actually for a flowering-sized bulb plus a smaller one, so not quite so pricey. With my order I also got Canapanama added gratis.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 10, 2011, 01:51:22 PM

About N.x litigiosus, Mariano del Amo y Mora, used this name knowing the controversy it was going to arise.
This species is the natural cross between N. albicans and N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus. It is very similar to N. x matritiensis which is N. cantabricus x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus.

In my oppinion there is not any valid key about this genus, only different articles published by different authors. I am agree with some articles, and in other cases I don't support at all.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: art600 on February 10, 2011, 05:39:37 PM

Here are some shot of Narcissus in my bulb house.  The scent is wonderful on a warm day.

1.  'Atlas Gold'
2.  N. praecox ex Morocco
3.  'Joy Bishop'
4.  Bought at the Mid-Anglia bulb sale as Yellow Petunioid - apologies for poor focus.  Colour is a darker yellow than in the photo.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 10, 2011, 09:10:24 PM

NIce ones Arthur. 'Atlas Gold' is a very favourite here for its vigour and generosity of flower. With me it starts to flower mid winter so is expecially welcome.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Michael J Campbell on February 10, 2011, 10:03:24 PM

A few more seedlings today.

Sorry no 5 is out of focus.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Kees Green on February 11, 2011, 06:21:47 AM

Hi everyone, its been a while since I was on here, love seeing all the hoops.
Only a few more months here and they will be starting to bloom for us southern hemispheriens

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 11, 2011, 09:42:45 AM

Nice batch of seedlings Michael.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 11, 2011, 02:35:15 PM

Very nice Michael, I must confess I'm getting hoop overload just now, but at last the first trumpets (apart from the Cedric Morris hybrid) are starting to open.
Marcus, I think the detective series of hoops are about here and there. I have Mitimoto.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 11, 2011, 03:32:47 PM

Quote from: annew on February 11, 2011, 02:35:15 PM

Marcus, I think the detective series of hoops are about here and there. I have Mitimoto.

.... and so do I!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on February 11, 2011, 11:10:38 PM

A diminutive Narcissus asturiensis came to me as grown from open pollinated seed it is about 4 " or 10 cm high

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 12, 2011, 09:47:56 AM

That is very pretty Ian. My own plants are only just showing.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 12, 2011, 05:02:25 PM

Mine too. Nice little daff Ian.

Here is Narcissus cantabricus 'Antequera' from Paul Christian's catalogue last year although the catalogue spelling was 'Antiquera which must be wrong. A pretty little thing but I don't think it warrents a name I'd be just as happy with it as N. cantabricus.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 12, 2011, 07:07:16 PM

Ian, your very nice little daff looks like it as a touch of cyclamineus blood in it.
Rafa - is albicans something I would recognise under a different name?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 12, 2011, 07:15:50 PM

Quote from: David Nicholson on February 12, 2011, 05:02:25 PM

Mine too. Nice little daff Ian.

Here is Narcissus cantabricus 'Antequera' from Paul Christian's catalogue last year although the catalogue spelling was 'Antiquera which must be wrong. A pretty little thing but I don't think it warrents a name I'd be just as happy with it as N. cantabricus.

David - I think the name of the town can be spelled either way. I had 'Antiquera' from Christian a couple of years ago which  looked completely different! I killed it fairly quickly. I remember some time ago Diane Clement posted a photo of plants in the wild near this town which looked rather more like the one I had:

http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4631.msg118739#msg118739

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: LucS on February 12, 2011, 07:27:01 PM

A small narcissus with upright small flowers. I believe this one is Narcissus cantabricus ssp. eualbidus

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 12, 2011, 07:27:16 PM

Anne this is a list of synonyms

≡ Corbularia albicans Haworth, Syn. pl. succ. app.: 332, nº 1* (1812); Narciss. revis.: 122-
123, nº ii.4 (1819)

= Narcissus Graëllsii Graells var. granatensis del Amo, Restaur. Farm. 1861: 7-8 (1861)

≡ Narcissus nivalis Graells var. granatensis (del Amo) del Amo, Fl. Fan. Peníns. Ibérica 1:
493-494 (1871)

≡ Narcissus ×litigiosus del Amo nvar. granatensis (del Amo) Fernández Casas, Fontqueria
55(35): 273 (2005)

= Narcissus ×Magni-Antonii Fernández Casas, Fontqueria 14: 18-19, nº 82 (27-ii-1987), ut
Narcissus cantabricus De Candolle × N. tenuifolius Salisbury

= Narcissus ×Barræ Fernández Casas, Fontqueria 14: 18, nº 80 (27-ii-1987), ut Narcissus
Bulbocodium Linnaeus × N. cantabricus De Candolle

= Narcissus ×neocarpetanus Rivas Ponce, Soriano & Fernández Casas nothovar. romanensis
Ureña, Anales Jard. Bot. Madrid 43(1): 185 (1986), ut Narcissus Bulbocodium
Linnaeus × N. cantabricus De Candolle
In my opinion this is a valid hybrid, from my friend Fernando Ureña, but probably is N. albicans in the place of N. cantabricus one of the parents, we are studying this...

≡ Narcissus cantabricus De Candolle subsp. luteolentus Barra & G. López, Anales Jard.
Bot. Madrid 39(1): 73 (1982) I support this species, but not a subsp. from cantabricus, it is in fact N. blancoi

= Narcissus Blancoi Barra & G. López, Anales Jard. Bot. Madrid 50(1): 123 (1992), nom.
nov. pro Narcissus cantabricus De Candolle subsp. luteolentus Barra Lázaro & López
González (1982) I personally support this species, (although I can't prove it) because is the same case than N. albicans, it is also a young species but in this case I think its origin was a successful hybrid between N. cantabricus and N. hedraeanthus. N. albicans would be a successful hybrid between N. cantabricus and N. bulbocodium L.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on February 12, 2011, 09:21:27 PM

Quote from: annew on February 12, 2011, 07:07:16 PM

Ian, your very nice little daff looks like it as a touch of cyclamineus blood in it.

Anne now you come to mention it there does seem to be some influence in the trumpet though the petals are not reflexed

I also have this one which has come from wild colllected seed I think which was received as asturiensis but is much taller than the previous plant. Be interested in any opinions. It is about 8" (20cm ) tall

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 13, 2011, 12:40:57 PM

Oh dear - I almost wish I hadn't asked!
This is one I have as Narcissus cantabricus subsp. luteolentus. Is it remotely like albidus?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 13, 2011, 12:52:10 PM

Very nice Anne. What does 'RV' stand for?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 13, 2011, 01:13:14 PM

It's important to know where the bulbs were collected. If you support N. blancoi and N. albicans, it is important to know spanish geography and the distribution of N. cantabricus, N. hedraeanthus and N. bulbocodium L.

This is not a simple problem in my oppinion, and it is even more complex because there are places where N. blancoi and N. albicans are making crosses... impossible to find the parentes and the hybrids :o :o :o. In this place in addition there is left only one ancient parent, N. cantabricus.

In the pictures, you could see two variants of N. albicans, probably due two ancient fertile hybrids varieties (when the mother was cantabricus or bulbocodium)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 13, 2011, 02:32:34 PM

Quote from: Gerry Webster on February 12, 2011, 07:15:50 PM

Quote from: David Nicholson on February 12, 2011, 05:02:25 PM

Mine too. Nice little daff Ian.

Here is Narcissus cantabricus 'Antequera' from Paul Christian's catalogue last year although the catalogue spelling was 'Antiquera which must be wrong. A pretty little thing but I don't think it warrents a name I'd be just as happy with it as N. cantabricus.

David - I think the name of the town can be spelled either way. I had 'Antiquera' from Christian a couple of years ago which  looked completely different! I killed it fairly quickly. I remember some time ago Diane Clement posted a photo of plants in the wild near this town which looked rather more like the one I had:

http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4631.msg118739#msg118739

Gerry, many thanks for the reference. Having read what Ian Young said in that discussion then it looks as though my plant could well be Narcissus cantabricus ssp. cantabricus (ie white tube, petals, filaments and style, with exsered style). Or have I got it wrong?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 13, 2011, 02:33:27 PM

Quote from: Rafa on February 12, 2011, 07:27:16 PM

Anne this is a list of synonyms

≡ Corbularia albicans Haworth, Syn. pl. succ. app.: 332, nº 1* (1812); Narciss. revis.: 122-
123, nº ii.4 (1819)

= Narcissus Graëllsii Graells var. granatensis del Amo, Restaur. Farm. 1861: 7-8 (1861)

≡ Narcissus nivalis Graells var. granatensis (del Amo) del Amo, Fl. Fan. Peníns. Ibérica 1:
493-494 (1871)

≡ Narcissus ×litigiosus del Amo nvar. granatensis (del Amo) Fernández Casas, Fontqueria
55(35): 273 (2005)

= Narcissus ×Magni-Antonii Fernández Casas, Fontqueria 14: 18-19, nº 82 (27-ii-1987), ut
Narcissus cantabricus De Candolle × N. tenuifolius Salisbury

= Narcissus ×Barræ Fernández Casas, Fontqueria 14: 18, nº 80 (27-ii-1987), ut Narcissus
Bulbocodium Linnaeus × N. cantabricus De Candolle

= Narcissus ×neocarpetanus Rivas Ponce, Soriano & Fernández Casas nothovar. romanensis
Ureña, Anales Jard. Bot. Madrid 43(1): 185 (1986), ut Narcissus Bulbocodium
Linnaeus × N. cantabricus De Candolle
In my opinion this is a valid hybrid, from my friend Fernando Ureña, but probably is N. albicans in the place of N. cantabricus one of the parents, we are studying this...

≡ Narcissus cantabricus De Candolle subsp. luteolentus Barra & G. López, Anales Jard.
Bot. Madrid 39(1): 73 (1982) I support this species, but not a subsp. from cantabricus, it is in fact N. blancoi

= Narcissus Blancoi Barra & G. López, Anales Jard. Bot. Madrid 50(1): 123 (1992), nom.
nov. pro Narcissus cantabricus De Candolle subsp. luteolentus Barra Lázaro & López
González (1982) I personally support this species, (although I can't prove it) because is the same case than N. albicans, it is also a young species but in this case I think its origin was a successful hybrid between N. cantabricus and N. hedraeanthus. N. albicans would be a successful hybrid between N. cantabricus and N. bulbocodium L.

My head hurts ;D

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 13, 2011, 02:47:59 PM

Mine too!
So if I have this right, there are 2 species: blancoi which is derived from an ancient cross of cantabricus and hedreanthus (which is the proper name for cantabricus subsp luteolentus), and albicans derived from an ancient cross of cantabricus and bulbocodium (which bulbocodium? I may regret asking that).
Are plants that I have under the name of hedreanthus subsp luteolentus really blancoi, then? Assuming they were correctly identified in the first place?
 Deep breath.

Here is a pot of new babies from one of my first crosses using hybrids as parents - Candlepower x cyclamineus.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 13, 2011, 02:57:27 PM

Very nice Anne and a good range of colours too.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 13, 2011, 03:45:05 PM

Exactly, this is that I thought.
The Narcissus bulbocodium is the species described by Linneo. Narcissus bulbocodium L.

In Flora Iberica, you will see that N. blancoi, N. albicans and N. cantabricus subsp. luteolentus are considered the same: Narcissus hedraeanthus subsp. luteolentus. Many of us are absolutely disagree with this and we support N. albicans as a valid species. Also many of us support N. blancoi, and the reason to support both species is because we think they have different origin. Both are young species, very polymorphic and also you can see in the field they are searching their correct inhabit, in some cases they are pushing away the ecological role from one or both hypotetical parents.

This is MY theory, to explain the origin of this accepted species. For example my friend F. Casas are disagree with me and also A. Barra...

In addition, I explain such a variability, in both species because probably there were two hybrid direction in both species depending which parent provides female gamets.

Narcissus cantabricus DC. x Narcissus bulbocodium L.---fertile---> N. albicans (cantabricus like)
                                                                                                        -----both--------> N. albicans (stable form)
Narcissus bulbocodium L.  x Narcissus cantabricus DC.--fertile---> N. albicans (bulbocodium like)


Narcissus cantabricus DC. x Narcissus hedraeanthus (Heldrich) Colmeiro---fertile---> N. blancoi (cantabricus like)
                                                                                                                             ----both--------> N. blancoi (stable form)
Narcissus hedraeanthus (Heldrich) Colmeiro x Narcissus cantabricus DC. --fertile---> N. blancoi (hedraeantus like)


Concerning N. albicans, is not difficoult to see this porcess in the field, because the inhabits are almost untouched, and very little 1km square in some populations. But the places were N. hedraeanthus and N. cantabicus supposedly grew are completely modified, and it is currently only possible to find N. blancoi with N. cantabricus, but not blancoi with N. hedraeanthus. And also impossible to find the  N. cantabricus and N. hedraeanthus meeting place. We are talking about 200km square or more....

I think most of North African species (romieuxii, albidus, etc...) are versions of N. albicans and N. bancoi, that evolved separately since Pangea division.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: arilnut on February 13, 2011, 04:11:46 PM

Rafa,  you are wayyyyyyy over my head! Like to the next Galaxie.

John B

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 13, 2011, 04:39:38 PM

hahah, John, it's just that I live in this part of the world which is the center in the origin of Narcissus genus.... But please, understand all that I told here as my personal vision from these narcissi.

There are similar cases in Peninsula Iberica, like N. dubius, N. tortifolius, N. obosoletus.... probably there is currently a N. moronensis? at the same time than N. x alentejanus var. moronensis

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: tonyg on February 13, 2011, 05:17:29 PM

I follow the reasoning Rafa - it makes good sense.  Some very nice photos to illustrate the plants too.
It will always be hard to put names to plants in cultivation, especially as we grow a range of species and forms very close together.  Then we raise more from seed ..... what to call these :P ;D I can only guess! 

For myself I have observed little variation in the seedlings from N albidus and N cantabricus ssp cantabricus that I have raised from my own seed.  Perhaps the cool weather at flowering means that most are self pollinated..... one day I will make controlled crosses, when children have grown!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 13, 2011, 06:23:48 PM

Quote from: Rafa on February 13, 2011, 04:39:38 PM

probably there is currently a N. moronensis?

Is Rafa having a joke with us?
Tony - albidus or albicans? ;D ;D

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 13, 2011, 06:37:07 PM

Quote from: annew on February 13, 2011, 06:23:48 PM

Quote from: Rafa on February 13, 2011, 04:39:38 PM

probably there is currently a N. moronensis?

Is Rafa having a joke with us?
Tony - albidus or albicans? ;D ;D

 I think this is confusion with Galanthus moronensis.... a very common plant  ;D ;)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 13, 2011, 06:58:11 PM

hahaha ;D :D :)..., no, seriously... We currently know that N. x perez-larae is a fertile species in the "orphan" location in Valencia. This year I also saw it in Cádiz, but very few plants. The name for this plant is Narcissus piifontianus and its origin is a successful hybrid between Narcissus cavanillesii and Narcissus obsoletus (old N. miniatus).
But what I am suggesting is that the same process is ocuring between N. serotinus and N. cavanillesii. This crosses was discovered by our friend Karl Gerd Knoche and he called it N. x moronensis. Unfortunately it was published later than N. x alentejanus. This hybrid have three varieties, probabily the cross is in two directions, when the mother is cavanillesii and when the mother is serotinus, and also variety in the middle:
var. moronensis (serotinus like)
var. knochei (middle like)
var. alentejanus (cavanillesii like)

I think var. moronensis could be in fact a fertil hybrid.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 13, 2011, 07:17:50 PM

Why did he call it moronensis? Referring to a location? Or was he having a joke?
Perhaps I'll take up Tecophileas, or something else with only a couple of species  ::) . Not really..

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 13, 2011, 07:23:11 PM

yes, Anne, "moronensis" is the name that Gerd used because it grows in "Morón de la Frontera", Sevilla, but also it grows in many other places.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 13, 2011, 07:51:02 PM

Quote from: Rafa on February 13, 2011, 07:23:11 PM

yes, Anne, "moronensis" is the name that Gerd used because it grows in "Morón de la Frontera", Sevilla, but also it grows in many other places.

 Interestingly, I find that Morón means a hill or hummock and near Braemar, in Aberdeenshire there is a large hill called Morrone.... this translates from the Gaelic as  big hill...... often a clue, isn't there?  :)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 13, 2011, 08:13:56 PM

Quote from: David Nicholson on February 13, 2011, 02:32:34 PM

Quote from: Gerry Webster on February 12, 2011, 07:15:50 PM

Quote from: David Nicholson on February 12, 2011, 05:02:25 PM

Mine too. Nice little daff Ian.

Here is Narcissus cantabricus 'Antequera' from Paul Christian's catalogue last year although the catalogue spelling was 'Antiquera which must be wrong. A pretty little thing but I don't think it warrents a name I'd be just as happy with it as N. cantabricus.

David - I think the name of the town can be spelled either way. I had 'Antiquera' from Christian a couple of years ago which  looked completely different! I killed it fairly quickly. I remember some time ago Diane Clement posted a photo of plants in the wild near this town which looked rather more like the one I had:

http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4631.msg118739#msg118739

Gerry, many thanks for the reference. Having read what Ian Young said in that discussion then it looks as though my plant could well be Narcissus cantabricus ssp. cantabricus (ie white tube, petals, filaments and style, with exsered style). Or have I got it wrong?

David - I'm reasonably sure that your plant is Narcissus cantabricus ssp. cantabricus. When I bought 'Antiquera' I assumed this was a cultivar name but it seems that it is meaningless.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 13, 2011, 08:56:50 PM

Exactly Maggy!, Morón is just a little hill, in this case just a half... :-\ they are transforming the hill in sandbags for make cement ...

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 13, 2011, 09:02:19 PM

Quote

David - I'm reasonably sure that your plant is Narcissus cantabricus ssp. cantabricus. When I bought 'Antiquera' I assumed this was a cultivar name but it seems that it is meaningless.

There is enough confusion, as it is with botanical names, as to make it more complicated with new comercial and made up names... I totally disagree with this not very proffesional nomenclature....

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 13, 2011, 10:44:55 PM

look at this, this is the only mountain in dozens of kilometers. This is one of the places where all these narcissi are growing, I wonder when they will decide it is the moment to stop eating the hill.... ???

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 14, 2011, 10:11:41 AM

When it is all gone, I expect, or it is cheaper to import it from eastern Europe or China or somewhere. >:(

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 14, 2011, 12:49:28 PM

Narcissus asturiensis, this one from Rannveig Wallis. I have another one from Simply Species which is in bud and I may be able to get a picture later in the week. It's slightly larger and last year a friend didn't think it was asturiensis it will be interesting to compare the two.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 14, 2011, 09:49:22 PM

In NZ the plants sometimes available as N. asturiensis are invariably N. minor, much too big. But I know one garden, not mine alas, where N. asturiensis is just 5cms high! :P

LucS, your little white upright form is a real delight. :D

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 14, 2011, 10:29:17 PM

Quote from: Lesley Cox on February 14, 2011, 09:49:22 PM

In NZ the plants sometimes available as N. asturiensis are invariably N. minor, much too big. But I know one garden, not mine alas, where N. asturiensis is just 5cms high! :P

Lesley - according to Blanchard, plants referred to N. asturiensis & those referred to N. minor overlap in size. He expresses some doubt as to whether there is any real botanical distinction between the supposed species & even whether N. minor exists as a wild species.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 14, 2011, 10:46:45 PM

I would like to clarify, that N. asturiensis is a very polymorphyc group of different species. In the nature, you could find very different plants in the same locality. Narcissus minor L. is not acceptable species as it hasn't type locality, it is a classic case of "greenhouse taxonomy" described in a pot, far from the country where it was collected.

For those who might be interested in this group, the better classification in my oppinion is:

N. asturiensis (Portugal, Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, Burgos, León, Palencia, Zamora...)
N. jacetanus (País Vasco, Navarra, Huesca...)
N. salmanticensis (Salamanca)
N. muñozii-garmendiae (Ciudad Real)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 15, 2011, 09:31:58 AM

Thanks for the clarification Rafa.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 15, 2011, 12:39:55 PM

I did a quickly scheme, my conclusion, most important in asturiensis group is the geographycal distribution, apart some important features. For example N. jacetanus (I don't' support subsp.) is glaucus and robust, N. muñozii-garmendiae has a long pedicel, the longest! and the perianth tube is like a candle. N. salmanticensis has a flatten perianth tube, very open angle and the filaments are almost in the ovary. N. muñozii-garmendiae and N. salmanticensis grows in just one range.

The size depends is not a valid character in my oppinion.

I also think it's very important to study their hybridation relation with Ganymedes and Bulbocodium sections.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on February 15, 2011, 02:01:50 PM

This is from Brian Duncan.

Narcissus cyclamineus 'Toothed Flange'


( edit by maggi to resize photo  ;) )

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 15, 2011, 02:07:58 PM

Thanks again Rafa. It's about time you produced a book!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ashley on February 15, 2011, 02:08:57 PM

Quote from: Rafa on February 15, 2011, 12:39:55 PM

I did a quickly scheme

Excellent Rafa.  Thank you for this.
I'll try to post some asturiensis forms next weekend, for comparison.

And I second Gerry on the book ;D

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 15, 2011, 04:15:19 PM

... and I'll third that.

Arnold she is a gorgeous little thing. Did Brian actually name it, or just refer to it's attribute please?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on February 15, 2011, 04:33:19 PM

David:

Brian  just referred to it's attributes.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 15, 2011, 04:45:28 PM

Arnold, thankls for that.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 15, 2011, 07:46:03 PM

So N, minor is really just a large (taller) form of asturiensis. Presumably then, N asturiensis 'Cedric Morris' and N. a 'Douglasbank.'

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 15, 2011, 08:21:59 PM

Quote from: Gerry Webster on February 15, 2011, 02:07:58 PM

Thanks again Rafa. It's about time you produced a book!

Please, Rafa! A monograph is greatly needed.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Hans A. on February 15, 2011, 09:32:36 PM

SUPERB Drawings,Rafa! :o

Quote from: annew on February 15, 2011, 08:21:59 PM

Quote from: Gerry Webster on February 15, 2011, 02:07:58 PM

Thanks again Rafa. It's about time you produced a book!

Please, Rafa! A monograph is greatly needed.

I agree totally! Always when I think I have understood somehing in this genus, I become aware I am completly lost. ;D ::)

Here two given to me by a friend of this forum: Narcissus hedraeanthus

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 16, 2011, 12:04:38 AM

oh thank you!,you are making me blush... they are worthless, just sketch to explain the species that I personally support.

There is a official key in Flora Iberica, which is a deppartament from CSIC (Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas). Maybe I might seen arrogant, because I am just a humble gardener a not a scientifist, but I disagree with most of things in Narcissus Volume. http://www.floraiberica.es/floraiberica/texto/imprenta/tomoXX/20_184_05_Narcissus.pdf

I learn about this genus thanks to my friends Javier Fernández Casas and Alfredo Barra, most prestigious researchers. Even with them I sometimes disagree... By the way, "bad news" hahaha, F. Casas has retired the species he dedicated to his wife Narcissus eugeniae.

If I were you I would forget names like N. minor because although you can go to see in the nature, where it was collected? Hispania? this is like nothing. And unless these names  N. asturiensis 'Cedric Morris' or N. Douglasbank, Antiquera etc... were hybrids (and not natural), I consider this practice to name a plant after someone, when it has already been described by a proffesional botanist, somehow unethical.

Imagine that I collect a particular narcissus form and I introduce it in culture under my name, or my cousin's name.. it wouldn't be serious.... it could be a chaos of non accepted names just to increase the sales.

Hans, I would say the first one is N. hedraeanthus and the second  N. blancoi. My friend F. Casas don't support this species and consider it is all N. hedraeanthus, but although I can't porve it I still thinking N. blancoi is a valid species.
Peter Taggar has sent me also some pictures.

Narcissus hedraeanthus is a very polymorph species, geographycally I consider it grows only in Cazorla, Segura and las Villas mountain ranges. You can see pure white forms and pale yellow forms.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Darren on February 16, 2011, 01:12:24 PM

Rafa,

I absolutely agree with your comments regarding naming of naturally occurring plants after individuals. In fact I'd go further than that. I was a little horrified to discover that, for instance, the dwarf coastal form of Calochortus albus now has a 'cultivar' name, even though it simply reflects a stable, natural, ecotype. Eucomis vandermerwei has also attracted names for forms wholly within the range of variation I expect from a single capsule of seed. Fair enough for real oddities such as albino forms, man-made hybrids etc but otherwise the botanical name should be enough. Perhaps it is related to the gardening public being afraid of latin names?

I feel that perhaps the cactus & succulent fraternity approach is better: distinct ecotypes are generally referred to by locality (or collection number) in order to distinguish them. For instance Conophytum luckhoffii SH500 I know is from a much larger-bodied population than the EVJ collection of the same species.

By the way - I've had superb germination of various Narcissus collections made by you and obtained from the Archibalds lists.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on February 16, 2011, 03:27:55 PM

Quote from: Darren on February 16, 2011, 01:12:24 PM

Rafa,

I absolutely agree with your comments regarding naming of naturally occurring plants after individuals. In fact I'd go further than that. I was a little horrified to discover that, for instance, the dwarf coastal form of Calochortus albus now has a 'cultivar' name, even though it simply reflects a stable, natural, ecotype. Eucomis vandermerwei has also attracted names for forms wholly within the range of variation I expect from a single capsule of seed. Fair enough for real oddities such as albino forms, man-made hybrids etc but otherwise the botanical name should be enough. Perhaps it is related to the gardening public being afraid of latin names?

Darren I think it's called Marketing ;)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 16, 2011, 07:27:36 PM

Quote from: Rafa on February 16, 2011, 12:04:38 AM

 By the way, "bad news" hahaha, F. Casas has retired the species he dedicated to his wife Narcissus eugeniae.

Hmmm - what should I name them now?
Hans, your Narcissus collection just increased by one species!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 16, 2011, 09:13:24 PM

Rafa and Darren, I'm pleased to read your comments because I've talked about this before and thought I was a lone voice on the subject. I totally agree with you that the giving of cultivar-type names to wild plants is outrageous, whether a person's name or any other, except to identify habit, locality etc. Marketing it may well be, but to my mind the principle and chief organization to be blamed is the Royal Horticultural Society who apparently demand that any plant must have such a name if it is to receive an award, or maybe even worse, must have such a name before it is put up for an award. That a UK nurseryman can collect plants in the remoter regions of NZ's mountains then "name" them after his wife or grandmother or his own nursery, is totally unacceptable and a disgrace. Who the hell does he think he is? And yes, it happened a while back. I can never get past Pratia angulata 'Tim Rees,' a wild plant from Papua New Guinea but given that name because that person apparently died while part of the group which first collected the plant. Much more acceptable would have been to call the plant, when it reached cultivated status, P. a. New Guinea form, which would have easily distinguished it from the very different New Zealand form.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 16, 2011, 09:34:02 PM

I'm not sure, but I think N.eugeniae is considered by his author as N. confusus...

In the other hand he has publish an extremely beautiful new Apodanthi species Narcissus ocasus, it is a rupicola with erect lance leaves and 3 flowers per scape. It grows in Algarve, Portugal.

Also there is a new species N. matiasii (a pseudonarcissus from Huesca) and a new divison in N. cuatrecasasii: N. gadorensis (from Almería) N. cuatrecasasii (Cazorla, Jaén) and  N. arundanum from (Grazalema), Cádiz.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 16, 2011, 10:12:08 PM

Quote from: Rafa on February 16, 2011, 09:34:02 PM

In the other hand he has publish an extremely beautiful new Apodanthi species Narcissus ocasus, it is a rupicola with erect lance leaves and 3 flowers per scape. It grows in Algarve, Portugal.

Rafa - is this the relatively recently discovered plant from the Algarve which has been regarded as a form of N. calcicola?   

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 16, 2011, 10:24:25 PM

Probably, Gerry... My first impresion was a plant very close to N. calcicola. Where did you read it?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 17, 2011, 09:27:55 AM

Quote from: Rafa on February 16, 2011, 09:34:02 PM

I'm not sure, but I think N.eugeniae is considered by his author as N. confusus...

Then I am in agreement with him.  ???
It would seem that, as in THE Snowdrop book, any monograph would be out of date before it was published, with so many 'new' species being described, or given different designations. Is there any chance of a consensus being reached?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 17, 2011, 10:09:30 AM

Quote from: Rafa on February 16, 2011, 10:24:25 PM

Probably, Gerry... My first impresion was a plant very close to N. calcicola. Where did you read it?

Rafa - in his 2000 seed list Jim Archibald listed  seed from N. calcicola collected by John Blanchard in the Algarve. I was intrigued since this seemed to be a new location for the species - additional to the two well known locations further north. So, when I saw your post on a new member of Apodanthae I wondered whether this could be it. I was especially interested since N. calcicola is my favourite narcissus.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 17, 2011, 12:03:33 PM

Anne, you could be agree or not, In my case, I don't know enough N. eugeniae, and I only trust in F. Casas criteria as he was his author. I would like to see some locations to have my own oppinion, I know veeery well N. confusus, so if it is the same It wont be very difficoult.

Thank you Gerry, I don't remeber were it was described.... near Faro I think. I saw the pictures in F. Casas study but I don't remeber all the concepts.. a notepad is needed! Precisely talking about N. calcicola, it seems there are whitish forms that remeber N. atlanticus.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 17, 2011, 12:32:51 PM

[quote author=Rafa link=topic=6400.msg186920#msg186920 date=1297944213
Thank you Gerry, I don't remeber were it was described.... near Faro I think. I saw the pictures in F. Casas study but I don't remeber all the concepts.. a notepad is needed! Precisely talking about N. calcicola, it seems there are whitish forms that remeber N. atlanticus.
[/quote]
Rafa - according to Archibald's list, the seed was collected at a site NW of Faro.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on February 17, 2011, 02:09:56 PM

Here is the topic of discussion.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 17, 2011, 08:04:37 PM

Rafa, I only meant that I was confused - I am not qualified to give a real opinion.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 17, 2011, 08:25:58 PM

Quote from: ArnoldT on February 17, 2011, 02:09:56 PM

Here is the topic of discussion.

.... and a very pretty topic too.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on February 17, 2011, 08:29:51 PM

David, Thanks,

Are they scented?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 17, 2011, 08:33:49 PM

Quote from: ArnoldT on February 17, 2011, 08:29:51 PM

David, Thanks,

Are they scented?

Arnold, you are asking the wrong bloke that question ;D

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 17, 2011, 10:14:17 PM

Quote from: ArnoldT on February 17, 2011, 08:29:51 PM

David, Thanks,

Are they scented?

Yes, strongly of violets.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on February 18, 2011, 03:41:08 AM

Gerry:

Got home this evening and gave the thing a sniff and it's violets alright.

Thanks,

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 18, 2011, 07:02:29 PM

A few days ago I posted a pic of one of my two plants of Narcissus asturiensis and said that I would post the second as soon as it was open enough as last year a friend cast doubt on it's authenticity. Here are both with my first post shown first.

The first is a less robust plant than the second but the first is flowering for the first time this year. Their height is about the same. The corona on the first plant is a little smaller than on the second. The leaves are pale green on the first but glaucous (to my eye!) on the second. I would welcome any views.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 18, 2011, 07:13:06 PM

Two from the greenhouse today both from Anne's List.

Narcissus 'Mitimoto: This one originally raised in Australia by Glenbrook and is a cross Nylon Group x N. bulbocodium var. conspicuus. Daffseek says it's sweetly scented but I couldn't detect it.

N. "Bowles Early Sulphur" a selection originally made by the great man himself in the 1950's. I only have one bulb so it will be in a pot until I have sufficient to go in the garden. Lokks nice and healthy Anne.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on February 18, 2011, 07:15:50 PM

Nice stuff David

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 18, 2011, 07:19:07 PM

Thanks Arnold.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on February 18, 2011, 09:26:04 PM

Caught yellow fever David...  ;D ;)
Some real little beauties there !

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 19, 2011, 10:18:59 AM

Glad to hear it, David. Mine look fine this year too.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 19, 2011, 05:12:31 PM

I'm having no luck posting photos just now - I'll have to try later when it's a bit quieter.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 19, 2011, 07:07:15 PM

Quote from: Luc Gilgemyn on February 18, 2011, 09:26:04 PM

Caught yellow fever David...  ;D ;)

I have to admit to that Luc ;D

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 19, 2011, 08:57:58 PM

Still no-go on posting photos. Am I going to have to get up in the middle of the night (unheard of unless there are bats needing to be watched)?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 19, 2011, 10:14:37 PM

Quote from: annew on February 19, 2011, 08:57:58 PM

Still no-go on posting photos. Am I going to have to get up in the middle of the night (unheard of unless there are bats needing to be watched)?

 I've managed, with only a couple of ,to post a few in the Dunblane thread Anne.... sorry to hear you 're having probs.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 20, 2011, 09:07:05 AM

My fault. I was trying to get them from the wrong folder so the files were too big. :-[
Here are some more new babies, plus an update on the pot I showed you earlier. K numbers refer to bulbs I had from Keira nursery in Australia. The pale seedling in the first photo is my favourite.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 20, 2011, 09:08:20 AM

A few more:

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 20, 2011, 09:09:34 AM

A few more:

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 20, 2011, 09:14:17 AM

Well, I'm making a proper pig's ear of this!  :D
One of the ones I showed above has only got 4 perianth segments for some reason.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 20, 2011, 09:16:49 AM

This year I've noticed this damage on the trumpets of 3 or 4 pots of daffodils. I'm hoping it's just frost damage to the embryo flowers. Anybody any other ideas or similar experience?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Emilio Monedero on February 20, 2011, 10:15:12 PM

Hello

My little contribution...In Valencia (Spain) the weather is very hot, and the first Narcissus are flowering today:

(The first and second photos are unknown, the third is the hybrid "Jetfire")

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 20, 2011, 10:55:49 PM

Khalid, what pristine large flowers for your first two pictures.... you must be pleased with those?
Little 'JetFire' is sweet.... a long time from being open here, of course.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Emilio Monedero on February 20, 2011, 11:13:58 PM

Quote from: Maggi Young on February 20, 2011, 10:55:49 PM

Khalid, what pristine large flowers for your first two pictures.... you must be pleased with those?
Little 'JetFire' is sweet.... a long time from being open here, of course.

Thank you Maggi

Yes, the first two are very big flowers. My hand is back and is very small compared ;)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on February 21, 2011, 02:27:23 AM

Anyone know anything about:

Narcissus quatrecasasi

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 21, 2011, 04:42:04 AM

I'm wondering if this is mis-spelt N. cuatrecasassii which as I have it, is very similar to N. rupicola but a good 2 or 3 weeks earlier and the seed ripens a good month before rupicola.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 21, 2011, 09:36:33 AM

I think there is just one 's' at the end-cuatrecasisii-named after the Spanish botanist Jose Cuatrecasas(1903-1996). I 've had one for a couple of years(or it might be rupicola!) but it never flowers for me.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 21, 2011, 09:38:41 AM

Oh Anne, some cracking seedlings there.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 21, 2011, 10:01:42 AM

Quote from: David Nicholson on February 21, 2011, 09:36:33 AM

I think there is just one 's' at the end-cuatrecasisii-named after the Spanish botanist Jose Cuatrecasas(1903-1996). I 've had one for a couple of years(or it might be rupicola!) but it never flowers for me.

cuatrecasasii I think - as in the botanist.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 21, 2011, 11:50:06 AM

You're right Gerry.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 21, 2011, 11:52:50 AM

Gerry, if you have the time I'd appreciate it if you would have a look at my two N. asturiensis on Page 21. I'd welcome your views.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 21, 2011, 12:33:31 PM

Quote from: David Nicholson on February 21, 2011, 11:52:50 AM

Gerry, if you have the time I'd appreciate it if you would have a look at my two N. asturiensis on Page 21. I'd welcome your views.

David - I'm not sure my opinion is worth much. According to Blanchard (which I think you have) the main characteristic of N. asturiensis is the constricted corona; neither of your plants seems to show this. So, either N. minor or N. nanus? My own plants of N. asturiensis (from Susan Band & flowering for the first time) are still in bud; I'll post a pic when they open. Blanchard implies that all these plants are variable & I suspect there are lots of hybrids around.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Casalima on February 21, 2011, 01:33:50 PM

I have two buds on the N. cuatrecasasii from last year's Mid-Anglia sale hoard. I also have Tiny Bubbles, Hawera, Snipe, Stocken and Baby Boomer in flower, but no pictures as my camera has gone to the menders. I'll have to ask my daughter to take some photos with her (not to be touched by mamã!) camera. The bulbs seem to be doing very well in general. My main problem at the moment is too much rain - I have to pour off rainwater from their trays regularly to prevent drowning.
By the way, Cuatrecasas is a Catalan surname, cuatre being a (less common) spelling of quatre (four) - Fourhouses :)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 21, 2011, 01:48:08 PM

Quote from: Gerry Webster on February 21, 2011, 12:33:31 PM

Quote from: David Nicholson on February 21, 2011, 11:52:50 AM

Gerry, if you have the time I'd appreciate it if you would have a look at my two N. asturiensis on Page 21. I'd welcome your views.

David - I'm not sure my opinion is worth much. According to Blanchard (which I think you have) the main characteristic of N. asturiensis is the constricted corona; neither of your plants seems to show this. So, either N. minor or N. nanus? My own plants of N. asturiensis (from Susan Band & flowering for the first time) are still in bud; I'll post a pic when they open. Blanchard implies that all these plants are variable & I suspect there are lots of hybrids around.

Gerry, many thanks, I would be interested in seeing a pic of your plant when it's ready.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 21, 2011, 04:25:08 PM

Narcissus cuatrecasasii Fern.Casas , M.Laínz & Ruiz Rejon
syn. Narcissus rupicola subsp. pedunculatus (Cuatr.) M. Lainz ex Meikle

The are several differences between N. rupicola and N. cuatrecasasii

N. cuatrecasasii is more robust than N. rupicola, it has wider leaves, one or two fowers per scape. which is longer than N. rupicola. Filaments are also diferently inserted in the tube. Corona in N. rupicola is lobulated and not in N. cuatrecasasii

Most important to me, geographical distribution, and soil conditions: N. cuatrecasasii only grows in Cazorla and Magina Mountains in limestone, and rupicola in silicium soil. I only know one place in Spain where N. rupicola grows in limestone.

It is possible to find N. rupicola with two flowers constricted.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 21, 2011, 06:13:31 PM

Quote from: David Nicholson on February 21, 2011, 01:48:08 PM

Quote from: Gerry Webster on February 21, 2011, 12:33:31 PM

Quote from: David Nicholson on February 21, 2011, 11:52:50 AM

Gerry, if you have the time I'd appreciate it if you would have a look at my two N. asturiensis on Page 21. I'd welcome your views.

David - I'm not sure my opinion is worth much. According to Blanchard (which I think you have) the main characteristic of N. asturiensis is the constricted corona; neither of your plants seems to show this. So, either N. minor or N. nanus? My own plants of N. asturiensis (from Susan Band & flowering for the first time) are still in bud; I'll post a pic when they open. Blanchard implies that all these plants are variable & I suspect there are lots of hybrids around.

Gerry, many thanks, I would be interested in seeing a pic of your plant when it's ready.

David - have a look at the photo on Susan's website:

http://www.pitcairnalpines.co.uk/narcissus-asturiensis-927-p.asp

Although it is not very clear, if you look carefully you can see that the coronas  are like those in the drawing in Blanchard. It will be a few days before my plants are ready for photos - I hope they look like this.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Brooklyngirl on February 21, 2011, 09:39:24 PM

Thanks to those who answered Arnold's inquiry about N. quatrecasasii (I had posed the question of what the derivation of the name is to him since he's the closest expert on this genus whom I know. He's over the Hudson and I'm in Brooklyn) I now know a lot more about it than I did. I wish I had the Blanchard book, but I do have E.A. Bowles' book on Narcissus, which could confuse me more than help me in preparations for a slide talk next week for our local NARGS chapter! Thanks to all you growers over the pond.
Lola

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 21, 2011, 09:57:11 PM

Sorry about the double ss. Slip of the finger I guess.

This is what I have as N. cuatrecasasii. It was raised from seedlist seed, source unknown. I find it very vigorous and carries two or three flowers per stem. It makes masses of quite large seed and this will go to both lists later in the year.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 21, 2011, 10:11:01 PM

Quote from: Lesley Cox on February 21, 2011, 09:57:11 PM

Sorry about the double ss. Slip of the finger I guess.

This is what I have as N. cuatrecasasii. It was raised from seedlist seed, source unknown. I find it very vigorous and carries two or three flowers per stem. It makes masses of quite large seed and this will go to both lists later in the year.

Lesley - I have never seen N. cuatrecasasii in the flesh but your plant does not seem to correspond with Blanchard's description of the morphology of the corona (should be entire or very slightly crenulate)  or with other pics I have seen. A characteristic feature  is the pedicel which is quite long (about 12mm) - not really visible on your pic. B states that number of flowers is 1-2  but usually solitary. 

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 21, 2011, 11:10:18 PM

So should I rename this (and the cleaned, packeted seed) as N rupicola? or what?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 21, 2011, 11:16:29 PM

Lesley, your plants are N. rupicola seeing this picture.
I enclose an spanish description of N. cuatrecasasii if it was of your interest:

Planta de 11-37 cm de altura, glabra. Bulbo 18-26 × 13-29 mm, subgloboso,
con túnicas externas membranáceas, de un castaño obscuro, que se prolongan
en una vaina de 13-94 mm. Escapo 9-33 × 0,15-0,30 cm, cilíndrico, estriado,
fistuloso al menos hacia la base. Hojas 1 ó 2(3), de 7-29 × (0,19)0,26-
0,37(0,56) cm, lineares –algo ensanchadas hacia el ápice–, de margen liso, de
sección trapezoidal –con 2 quillas ± marcadas en la cara dorsal–, no torsionadas,
obtusas, coetáneas, ceñidas en la base por 1 ó 2 vainas escariosas, truncadas,
que están ± cubiertas por la prolongación de las túnicas externas del bulbo.
Espata 17-31 × 3-6 mm, lanceolada, envainante en la base –4-19 mm–, plurinervia,
membranácea, de un castaño claro. Flores solitarias –muy rara vez 2 por
escapo–, con un pedicelo de (5,2)6,8-12(17,1) mm, recto, de sección circular.
Tubo del perianto 12-17,3 × 2,8-5,5 mm, que se estrecha gradualmente hacia el
ápice, recto, amarillento. Tépalos 8,7-13,1 × 5,3-9,1 mm, subiguales, de algo
más de la mitad a casi tan largos como en tubo –relación tépalo externo/tubo =
0,64-0,94–, de obovados a ovados, patentes, normalmente apiculados, de un
amarillo vivo; corona 2,6-5,7 mm y 8,6-12,8 mm de diámetro, de un tercio a un
poco más de la mitad de la longitud de los tépalos –relación longitud de la corona/
longitud tépalo externo = 0,31-0,56–, mucho más corta que el tubo –relación
longitud de la corona/longitud tubo = 0,22-0,38–, cupuliforme, subentera, de
sección circular, de un amarillo vivo. Filamentos estaminales rectos, amarillentos;
los inferiores inclusos –relación longitud del filamento/longitud del tubo =
0,51-0,75–, adnatos en casi toda su longitud –con una parte soldada al tubo de
6,1-10,2 mm y una parte libre de 0,6-1,2 mm–; los superiores inclusos o levemente
exertos del tubo –relación longitud del filamento/longitud del tubo =
0,84-1–, adnatos en casi toda su longitud –con una parte soldada al tubo de 9,9-
14,2 mm y una parte libre de 0,3-1 mm–; anteras 1,8-3,1 × 0,6-1 mm, no versátiles,
amarillas. Ovario 3,8-10,1 × 3,4-6,4 mm, verde; estilo 7,1-18,5 mm, supera
un poco las anteras superiores en las flores longistilas y queda por debajo de
las inferiores en las brevistilas, amarillento. Cápsula 7,2-18,6 × 6-10,7 mm,
oblongo-ovoide. Semillas 2,3-3 × 1,8-2,2 mm, ovoides, negras, brillantes, con
estrofíolo. 2n = 14; n = 7.
Claros de pinares, prados húmedos, y roquedos calcáreos; 900-1900 m. III-V(VI). Rif occidental
–Marruecos– y S de la Península Ibérica. Sierras béticas –desde Grazalema hasta Cazorla–.
Esp.: Ca Gr J Ma. N.v.: flor de los pajaritos, narciso de Cuatrecasas.
Observaciones.–El N. cuatrecasasii es muy similar al N. rupicola. Se separa bien de este último
por la longitud de su pedicelo y por la forma de la corona, que es subentera y no con dientes irregulares
como la de N. rupicola. Además, N. cuatrecasasii es una planta más robusta, con hojas algo
más anchas y con el tubo del perianto algo más largo. Los filamentos superiores se disponen en N.
cuatrecasasii algo más arriba que en N. rupicola, de modo que en ocasiones las anteras son levemente
exertas y los filamentos inferiores tienen una zona libre algo más larga en términos absolutos
y en relación a la longitud total del filamento. El área de distribución no se solapa en ningún punto
y el hábitat es también diferente, ya que N. rupicola crece en substratos silíceos y N. cuatrecasasii
se localiza en materiales calcáreos.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 21, 2011, 11:39:40 PM

Here is a computer translation which just about makes sense:

"Plant of 11-37 cm of height, glabra. Bulb 18-26 × 13-29 mm, subgloboso,
with membranáceas external robes, of a dark chestnut tree, that extend
in a case of 13-94 mm I save 9-33 × 0,15-0,30 cm, cylindrical, fluted,
sinus at least towards the base. Leaves 1 or 2 (3), of 7-29 × (0,19) 0,26-
0,37 (0,56) cm, lineares - something been high and mighty towards the apex, of smooth margin, of
trapezial section - with 2 marked in the upper surface, not twisted keels ±,
obtuse, contemporary, fitted in the base by 1 or 2 escariosas cases, truncated,
that they are ± covered by the prolongation of the external robes of the bulb.
3-6 mm, lanceolada Espata 17-31 ×, envainante in the base -4-19 mm, plurinervia, membranácea, of a chestnut tree clearly. Solitary flowers - very rarely 2 by
I escape, with pedicelo of (5,2) 6,8-12 (17,1) mm, rectum, of circular section.
Tube of perianto 12-17,3 × 2,8-5,5 mm, that is narrowed gradually towards
apex, rectum, yellowish. Tepals 8,7-13,1 × 5,3-9,1 mm, subequals, of something
more than half to almost as long as in tube - relation external tepal/tube =
0,64-0,94-, of obovados to ovados, patents, normally apiculados, of
alive yellow; it crowns 2,6-5,7 mm and 8,6-12,8 mm of diameter, a third to
little more than half of the length of the tepals - relation length of the crown length external tepal = 0,31-0,56-, much more cuts that the tube - relation
length of the crown/length tube = 0,22-0,38-, cupuliforme, subfinds out, of
circular section, of an alive yellow. Straight, yellowish estaminales filaments;
the enclosed inferiors - relation length of the filament/length of the tube =
0,51-0,75-, adnatos in almost all their length - with one it starts off welded to the tube of
6,1-10,2 mm and one free part of 0,6-1,2 mm; the enclosed superiors or slightly
exertos of the tube - relation length of the filament/length of the tube =
0,84-1-, adnatos in almost all their length - with one it starts off welded to the tube of 9,9-
14.2 mm and one free part of 0,3-1 mm; anthers 1,8-3,1 × 0,6-1 mm, nonversatile, yellow. Ovary 3,8-10,1 × 3,4-6,4 mm, green; style 7,1-18,5 mm, surpasses
a little the anthers superiors in the flowers longistilas and is below
the inferiors in brevistilas, yellowish. Capsule 7,2-18,6 × 6-10,7 mm, oblong-ovoid. Seeds 2,3-3 × 1,8-2,2 ovoid, black, shining mm, with
estrofíolo. 2n = 14; n = 7.
Clear of pine groves, meadows humid, and rocky calcareous; 900-1900 M. III-V (VI). Western Rif - Morocco and S of the Iberian Peninsula. Betis mountain ranges - from Grazalema to Cazorla-.
ESP.: Ca gr. J Ma. N.v.: flower of the small birds, narcissus of Cuatrecasas.
Observations. - The N. cuatrecasasii is very similar to the N. rupicolous. One separates well of this last by the length of his pedicelo and the form of the crown, that is subwhole and not with irregular teeth like the one of N. rupicolous. In addition, N. cuatrecasasii is a more robust plant, with wider leaves something and the tube of perianto something more length. The filaments superiors get ready in N. cuatrecasasii something arrives more that in N. rupicolous, so that sometimes the anthers are slightly exertas and the filaments inferiors have a free zone something longer in absolute terms and in relation to the length overall of the filament. The distribution area lapel in any point and the habitat is not also different, since N. rupicolous grows in silíceos substrata and N. cuatrecasasii is located in calcareous materials".

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 22, 2011, 03:08:17 AM

Thank you gentlemen. I'll try and take better pictures of both next spring. I don't have Blanchard and my only reference for cuatrecasasii is Wells who sayshe doesn't think it's worth growing!

Another serious earthquake in Christchurch today, 6.3 on Richter scale but closer to the city and much shallower, just 5kms instead of 33 like the previous one. There is must worse damage and probably fatalities (not confirmed yet) happening as it did at lunchtime on a working day.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 22, 2011, 02:00:04 PM

Pix of Narcissus cuatrecasasii from a Bulb Log.... grown, if I recall correctly, from wild collected seed given us by Margaret and Henry Taylor. 


http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2006/260406/log.html

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 22, 2011, 02:22:44 PM

Quote from: Maggi Young on February 22, 2011, 02:00:04 PM

Pix of Narcissus cuatrecasasii from a Bulb Log.... grown, if I recall correctly, from wild collected seed given us by Margaret and Henry Taylor.  
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2006/260406/log.html

Relying on Blanchard's description, that looks like the real thing! Quite distinct from N. rupicola.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on February 22, 2011, 03:19:18 PM

Here's one flowering now.


 (Edit by maggi: mis-named pix removed at Arnold's request. )

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 22, 2011, 03:49:38 PM

Narcissus dubius?? I would say any cultivar from N. alpestris... anyway beautiful plant.
Look at this short and open perianth tube in this asturiensis, I would say similar to salmanticensis!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 22, 2011, 10:33:26 PM

Returning to this complex asturiensis, I scarify this little one to see the size and a longitudinal cut.

Note: I wrongly labeled the pictures, it was N. jacetanus and not N. asturiensis

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: mark smyth on February 23, 2011, 04:51:16 PM

My first trumpets are out. N. Navarre and N. lagoi op. Soon N. Mitzy will be out

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 23, 2011, 07:15:05 PM

Today I visited new locality in Madrid, that my friend Teo and I discovered this week.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 23, 2011, 07:18:41 PM

another 3 pictures

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Emilio Monedero on February 23, 2011, 07:41:03 PM

Great, fantastic!!!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 23, 2011, 07:47:39 PM

After that I visited another one, we dicovered last year with other friend, in another new UTM. This locality is very little and  quite damaged, far too many rabbits and some trash  :-\

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 23, 2011, 08:24:58 PM

Quote from: khalid on February 23, 2011, 07:41:03 PM

Great, fantastic!!!

Yes!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 23, 2011, 08:44:42 PM

There may some faults with the site but each clumps is  different, and perfect. This is wonderful to see. Rafa, Teo,  a thousand thanks!

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Michael J Campbell on February 23, 2011, 09:12:16 PM

Narcissus obvallaris, from seed
Narcissus mite
Narcissus Douglasbank, trying to escape
Narcissus pseudonarcissus Eugene, from seed

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 23, 2011, 09:34:19 PM

Rafa, they are beautiful indeed. The last clump look like some we grow as N. cantabricus laciniatus.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Miriam on February 23, 2011, 09:42:51 PM

Great finding Rafa  :o

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 23, 2011, 10:59:11 PM

In the first place, there is so much genetical variability (like in most of localities) that you can find all that names, but in my oppinion it is the normal variability of the species. I only support one Narcissus cantabricus in Penínusla Iberica, and probably in North Africa is the same species.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: tonyg on February 24, 2011, 11:28:45 AM

Quote from: annew on February 23, 2011, 09:34:19 PM

Rafa, they are beautiful indeed. The last clump look like some we grow as N. cantabricus laciniatus.

Oh so wonderful Rafa!!!
The name 'laciniatus' is likely invalid.  Mike Salmon distributed this as var laciniatus, I guess one of his collections from years ago.  It does look like the plants Rafa shows.  Perhaps we should simply call it 'laciniate form' to distinguish it from the more usual forms.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 24, 2011, 01:55:09 PM

Quote from: tonyg on February 24, 2011, 11:28:45 AM

Quote from: annew on February 23, 2011, 09:34:19 PM

Rafa, they are beautiful indeed. The last clump look like some we grow as N. cantabricus laciniatus.

Oh so wonderful Rafa!!!
The name 'laciniatus' is likely invalid.  Mike Salmon distributed this as var laciniatus, I guess one of his collections from years ago.  It does look like the plants Rafa shows.  Perhaps we should simply call it 'laciniate form' to distinguish it from the more usual forms.

RBG does not even recognise the name let alone accept it. Tony - your suggestion sounds sensible since the plant seems horticulturally distinct.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Tony Willis on February 24, 2011, 05:24:22 PM

Rafa they are wonderful and good to see in clumps.I expect you have seen them at Filabres where they all appear to be singles.

Two of mine in flower today
Narcissus bulbocodium
Narcissus hedreanthus

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on February 24, 2011, 06:22:42 PM

I've enjoyed the Narcissus show tremendously.

Rafa has me planning a trip to Spain for a bit of Rioja and Narcissus watching.

Question I have is what type of summer conditions do forumists provide for their resting Narcissus.  My greenhouse will probably get up to 100 F during the summer months.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 24, 2011, 07:32:07 PM

I have 50% shading on my greenhouses, and the sand plunge dries out completely for most species.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 24, 2011, 07:51:35 PM

From the greenhouse today:-

Narcissus 'Candlepower'. I have only one bulb so it stays in the greenhouse for as long as it takes to bulk up sufficiently to plant out.

Narcissus bulbocodium ssp. bulbocodium var. nivalis

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 24, 2011, 07:54:23 PM

I like your cheeky little nivalis, David.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 24, 2011, 08:12:37 PM

Anne, this is one I got from Brian Duncan,If I have a spare at re-potting I'll send you one. I've made a note.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 24, 2011, 08:35:21 PM

Beautiful display! This little N. bulbocodium is he species that I call N. nivalis Graells. In Flora Iberica you will see it as N. bulbocodium L. but I am not agree, I think it is a separated species from it, like N. graellsii Graells, as well.

Tony you are right, the only different N. cantabricus in Spain grows in Sierra de los Filabres, but I don't know if they have any constant different character (anatomical) in the whole locality to consider it as subsp. from N. cantabricus.

Most of narcissi needs a dry dormancy in summer but in a pot the bulb could be dehydrated, so the better is to put them in the shadow during summer, out of the green house... but here there are many expert growers than me who can explain better how to grow them  ;)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 24, 2011, 09:36:49 PM

Quote from: ArnoldT on February 24, 2011, 06:22:42 PM

Question I have is what type of summer conditions do forumists provide for their resting Narcissus.  My greenhouse will probably get up to 100 F during the summer months.

I keep NN. asturiensis, cyclamineus & watieri outside, in an open & shaded plunge so they remain slightly damp. Most of the others are kept completely dry & covered in semi-shade in a temperature of about 70-80 F (max). Jonquils seem to benefit from a somewhat higher temperature; they are kept dry in a covered but unshaded S-facing plunge. I think one has to experiment. 

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 24, 2011, 09:45:26 PM

A few weeks ago a large holly tree in our neighbour's garden was taken down.... this year we may have to give more thought to what temperature is reached in the narcissus house which has been getting shade from this tree for many years.
 Of course, with Aberdeen weather, it may not make any difference at all ::) :-\

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 25, 2011, 07:25:28 PM

Here is an assortment of N. asturiensis group plants that I've had from various sources for you all to play with. I've been looking at Rafa's drawing on page 20 of this thread and think the first one might be N. muñozii-garmendiae. What do you think? The habitat photo was taken in Portugal (I don't have that one).

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Graham Catlow on February 25, 2011, 07:38:55 PM

Quote from: Maggi Young on February 24, 2011, 09:45:26 PM

A few weeks ago a large holly tree in our neighbour's garden was taken down.... this year we may have to give more thought to what temperature is reached in the narcissus house which has been getting shade from this tree for many years.
 Of course, with Aberdeen weather, it may not make any difference at all ::) :-\

A large cherry tree on my garden boundary was taken down a few weeks ago and I am now hoping my Crocosmia 'Lucifer and Liliums will grow vertically and not at 45 degrees. :)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 25, 2011, 10:50:44 PM

really nice Anne!, I would say all are N. asturiensis, except the third,that I would say N. jacetanus.
What about this Alstroemeria pygmaea! I lost many plants from you  :-[

Some narcissi blooming today. I choose these species to talk about N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus. As you can see it has the yellow colour from N. bulbocodium, but it should have the yellow from N. pallidiflorus, shouldn't it? Well, In most of low altitude localities from N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus you can find this pure yellow forms, the closer you get to Portugal this pure yellow forms starting to be more common. This has ben described as N. triandrus subsp. lusitanicus.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 25, 2011, 11:25:04 PM

Rafa, the Alstromeria is a weed! it is coming through the drainage holes in my pots to appear with the narcissi! You can have as much as you like, I will send you some more.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ashley on February 26, 2011, 12:02:12 AM

Very nice asturiensis Anne with interesting variation, some showing only very slight waisting of the coronas. 
Rafa, is your suggestion of jacetanus for #3 based on the more glaucous stem or are there other significant features?

That pallidiflorus is a beauty too; first seedlings are just appearing here so (slugs permitting) I have only 2-3 years to wait ;)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Diane Clement on February 26, 2011, 08:56:05 AM

I hope that Rafa will help with the ID of this, seen a couple of days ago, west of Denia in the region of Valencia.  I initially thought it was N tortifolius but not sure the leaves are broad and long enough.  On arriving home and consulting Blanchard's book, I wonder if it is N dubius.  It seemed more creamy white than the pure white of N papyraceus.  It was quite strongly scented and interestingly, the scent was more like N jonquilla than N papyraceus.  I'm currently struggling with a new camera, so apologies for picture quality.  In the past I would not have dreamed of taking a picture without a tripod but was risking this hand held using the vibration reduction setting.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 26, 2011, 10:13:12 AM

Diane, this white narcissus is a real gem.
 Did you bottle some of the fragrance? I find myself  wanting to sniff the screen.... how desperate am I?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 26, 2011, 10:53:56 AM

Diane - I'll be interested to see how Rafa responds since I've recently spent a bit of time trying to confirm the identity of a trade plant I have. According to Blanchard there is a difference in the leaves; in N. dubius the outer face is striated, in N. tortifolius it is flat. On this basis, mine seems to be the former but the leaves - on a very young plant - are slightly twisted whereas Blanchard describes them as untwisted. In N. tortifolius the epithet is said to be appropriate. Usual Narcissus variability I suppose.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Diane Clement on February 26, 2011, 12:32:00 PM

Quote from: Gerry Webster on February 26, 2011, 10:53:56 AM

Diane - I'll be interested to see how Rafa responds since I've recently spent a bit of time trying to confirm the identity of a trade plant I have. According to Blanchard there is a difference in the leaves; in N. dubius the outer face is striated, in N. tortifolius it is flat. On this basis, mine seems to be the former but the leaves - on a very young plant - are slightly twisted whereas Blanchard describes them as untwisted. In N. tortifolius the epithet is said to be appropriate. Usual Narcissus variability I suppose.  

I once grew N tortifolius but no longer have it, and I do have N dubius but it never flowers with me.  Comparing the climate of the area we visited and the climate back home, I am surprised either of them survived with me at all.  
Unfortunately I didn't take Blanchard's book with me, so didn't get the full information on the plant regarding the leaf shape and structure.  At the time, I thought it must be a hybrid between N papyraceus (for the flower shape) and a species from the jonquilla section (for the different scent and the fact it was not pure white, more creamy).  The pictures of N tortifolius in Blanchard and also from Rafa show broader leaves for N tortifolius :
http://ko.treknature.com/gallery/photo232579.htm (http://ko.treknature.com/gallery/photo232579.htm)

On getting home and looking through Blanchard, I realised that N dubius occurs as far south as we were, which I did not previously realise, and it seems to fit better than N tortifolius, although the colour of the flower is still not quite right.  I'll still not really sure, so will wait for expert proclamation  ;D

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 26, 2011, 05:24:46 PM

It's very nice, Diane. How big was it?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 26, 2011, 08:09:29 PM

Ashley, also N. jacetanus has wider leaves than N. asturiensis.

Very nice problem... I think narcissus dubius is one of the most interesting species from this genus, and its origing is not solved at all in my oppinion.

Many people consider N. dubius has an hybridogen origin between N. assoanus and N. papyraceus, my personal oppinion is that this is wrong.

I support that N. assoanus is involved in the origin, but the other parent has been extinct by the successful hybrid N. dubius. And we are currently seeing the next step in their evolution: N. x pujolii ("retrecross" (???) between N. dubius and his parent N. assoanus) and N. x cardonae (N.tazetta x N. dubius) a new hybrid from my friend F. LLoret.

There are not N. papyraceus or N. pannizianus (if you support it) in the principal distribution regions of N. dubius: Cataluña, Valencia, Zaragoza, Navarra.... and in south France neither.

There are currently hybrids between N. assoanus and N. papyraceus in the south and they don't remember at all  N. dubius.

BUT, we discovered a relict species in Cataluña that we consider it as the ancestral of N. papyraceus. It is like a little N. papyraceus, totaly hardy, that is very possible it was one of the parents from N. dubius.

Many times I deubt with some identifications, beacuse you can find yellow forms in N. dubius, in some localities, that could remeber N. x pujolii. I think in the past this form was more common, but finnaly N. dubius is white due the speciation.

http://www.biodiversidadvirtual.org/herbarium/Narcissus-dubius-Gouan-img29378.html
http://www.biodiversidadvirtual.org/herbarium/Narcissus-dubius-Gouan-img29377.html
http://www.biodiversidadvirtual.org/herbarium/Narcissus-dubius-Gouan-img29379.html
http://www.biodiversidadvirtual.org/herbarium/Narcissus-dubius-Gouan-img29376.html
http://www.biodiversidadvirtual.org/herbarium/Narcissus-dubius-Gouan-img29375.html

We are crossing in controled conditions N. assoanus with N. sp# tazettae to see what happen.

About N. tortifolius, this species is recently considered as N. pachybolbus, but this is wrong in my oppinion. N. pachybolbus is N. papyraceus 2n= 22 (Pajarón,1985) and N. tortifolius  2n= 36. It is a very robust species with wide leaves and twisted leaves, very glaucous and many many tunics in the bulbs. This is not important because they are only adaptations to the drought.

This is a watercolour I did for F. Casas, N. tortifolius was his first description in this genus.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 26, 2011, 08:40:53 PM

some piectures from this evening

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 26, 2011, 08:48:20 PM

Quote from: Rafa on February 26, 2011, 08:09:29 PM

This is a watercolour I did for F. Casas, N. tortifolius was his first description in this genus.

 Oh, my word, that is exquisite!  8)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 26, 2011, 08:56:15 PM

Really beautiful painting. So Althea is the one who hunts down the narcissi?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 26, 2011, 09:00:11 PM

Thank you ladies!

Well she's learning... ;D

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: tonyg on February 26, 2011, 10:07:14 PM

Quote from: Diane Clement on February 26, 2011, 08:56:05 AM

I hope that Rafa will help with the ID of this, seen a couple of days ago, west of Denia in the region of Valencia.  I initially thought it was N tortifolius but not sure the leaves are broad and long enough.  On arriving home and consulting Blanchard's book, I wonder if it is N dubius.  It seemed more creamy white than the pure white of N papyraceus.  It was quite strongly scented and interestingly, the scent was more like N jonquilla than N papyraceus.  I'm currently struggling with a new camera, so apologies for picture quality.  In the past I would not have dreamed of taking a picture without a tripod but was risking this hand held using the vibration reduction setting.

Seems like you have settled on N dubius.  It looks like the plant I grew under that name (from seed - took ages to flower) which matched the plants exhibited by Bob and Rannveig Wallis under the name N dubius.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Diane Clement on February 27, 2011, 02:31:16 PM

Quote from: Rafa on February 26, 2011, 08:09:29 PM

Many people consider N. dubius has an hybridogen origin between N. assoanus and N. papyraceus, my personal oppinion is that this is wrong.

Thanks Rafa for the links, and your interesting ideas on the origin of N dubius, and for confirming this as the species I saw

Quote

  There are not N. papyraceus or N. pannizianus (if you support it) in the principal distribution regions of N. dubius: Cataluña, Valencia, Zaragoza, Navarra.... and in south France neither.

This is interesting.  One day we stopped for a drink in a bar at Val D'Ebo near Pego in the Valencia region.  On the bar was a vase of (I thought) Narcissus papyraceus.  I asked the owner where did she get the plants - she replied "in the mountains near here.  There weren't very many this year, so I picked them all."  ::)   :'(
I didn't take a photo so only have my memory, but they certainly looked and smelled like N papyraceus.  So the problem continues  ;D

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 27, 2011, 06:51:45 PM

Diane, It is possible N. papyraceus, but until anybody register an herbarium sheet from this species collected in Valencia, for Scientific comunity, this plants doesn't occur there.

It is very interesting your testimony, because this Narcissus sp# Tazettae, smells like N. papyraceus. This character is hereditary attached to female gamets, I think, like other crosses in narcissus ej N. x matritensis (N. pallidulus smell)).
So if we keeping speculating with this idea, we could know something about this ancient crosses between N. assoanus and N. sp# tazettae: the direction in this hybrid was the "mother" = N. assoanus, but not only because it smell fine also because there are yellow N. dubius.

Maybe they were both directions in that crosses (N. assoanus x N. sp #tazettae) and (N. sp# tazettaex N. assoanus) and this could explain two tendecies concerning the smell. As Jonquillae and Tazettae are quite similar both directions in the hybrids could create also similar species, like false twins  :D

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on February 27, 2011, 09:22:21 PM

Close up

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 27, 2011, 09:52:07 PM

Arnold, I would said N. assoanus, beautiful anyway

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on February 27, 2011, 10:00:29 PM

Rafa:

Wow are things mixed up.  I have N. Assoanus coming up and it will interesting to see what that looks like.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerdk on February 28, 2011, 06:56:21 PM

A selection of some hoops - just in flower

1. Narcissus albidus - from Jebel Zerhoun/Morocco
2. + 3. Narcissus bulbocodium from Tizi n'Tichka/Morocco
4. + 5. Narcissus hedraeanthus - from Alcatraz/Spain
6. + 7. Narcissus hedraeanthus (white variant) x N. cantabricus
8. Narcissus cantabricus from Calatrava/Spain

I am interested in Rafas comment concerning the Alcatraz plant (4 + 5.)

Gerd

           

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 28, 2011, 07:42:52 PM

Lovely selection Gerd. Your hedraeanthus is gorgeous.

Two of mine from the greenhouse today:-

The first three images are Narcissus 'Elka' raised by Alec Gray. Daffseek says "...... the difference in structure of chromosomes (14) indicate the plant is a wild hybrid and unlikely to be fertile." But Elka was the pollen parent of N. 'Puppy Love' raised in USA in 2007. Daffseek also says that the corona opens yellow becoming white as the flower matures.

The next three are what must be the longest name in the world, N.romieuxii ssp. mesatlanticus x N. bulbocodium forma 'Anne' raised of course by Anne Wright. I thought Anne had sorted out a new name for this cross but can't find where I saw it. My pet name for it is 'Anne's cross' much easier to write on the label.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on February 28, 2011, 08:07:04 PM

First comment: I want them!  ;D  hahaha
Gerd, fantástic post. As you know I am not very sure about all these bulbocodium... I support N. hedraeanthus as the little pale yellow bulbocodium isolated in the "geobiological" region from Alcaraz, Cazorla to Las Villas Mountain Ranges. It is a variable species and in these Mountains there are different forms and colours, and you can find pure white forms to pale yellow. I think in the future It will be several lineages from N. blancoi depending the isolation of their localities, the proximity and influence of their ancient parents.

I enclose this map of distribution, but PLEASE undestand this picture as my personal vision or oppinion concerning this group. Even my botanist friends are not very agree with me so...

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on February 28, 2011, 08:32:45 PM

Quote from: Gerdk on February 28, 2011, 06:56:21 PM

A selection of some hoops - just in flower

1. Narcissus albidus - from Jebel Zerhoun/Morocco
2. + 3. Narcissus bulbocodium from Tizi n'Tichka/Morocco
4. + 5. Narcissus hedraeanthus - from Alcatraz/Spain
6. + 7. Narcissus hedraeanthus (white variant) x N. cantabricus
8. Narcissus cantabricus from Calatrava/Spain
I am interested in Rafas comment concerning the Alcatraz plant (4 + 5.)
Gerd

A lovely collection Gerd. I have a question about N. albidus. On your photo the style looks to be white which might suggest N. cantabricus. What do you think?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 28, 2011, 08:51:28 PM

Quote from: David Nicholson on February 28, 2011, 07:42:52 PM

 My pet name for it is 'Anne's cross' much easier to write on the label.

As well as belonging to Anne, this could also be read as "Anne is cross." ;D But I'm sure she wouldn't be. ;)

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 28, 2011, 10:32:40 PM

Very nice collection Gerd!
David - I just discussed this daffodil with another forumist. Tockwith Anne should be renamed 'Robin Metcalf' (it was he, not me, who raised it). It is not a registered name, so I feel I can change it willy nilly - I never liked the name, and I feel I'm much more of a trumpet than a hoop petticoat type, should I ever have a daff named in my honour. I will not change it again, so you can rewrite your label with confidence. It is a good 'doer'.
Nice to see 'Elka' - I have difficulty getting it to flower.

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on February 28, 2011, 10:33:27 PM

PS I'm not cross  ;D

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerdk on March 01, 2011, 05:32:27 PM

Thanks for kind comments!

@ Rafa: There is a hedraeanthus population near Alcatraz which has much darker tinted flowers than those from the Sierra de Cazorla. My plants didn't show the real tone.
Is there already a description of Narcissus blancoi? (maybe I lost the paper).

@ Gerry:  I received my Narcissus albidus from an Austrian friend under that name.  I have to confess that I didn't recheck them. One reason was that the bulbocodium/romieuxii/cantabricus complex seems awfully confusing - even when you try to follow the authorities.
But according Blanchard the style of Narcissus (romieuxii) albidus  the style is white.
I attach a pic of Narcissus albidus SF 110 - received from a nice forumist under that name and you'll notice that the style is white also.

Gerd

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on March 01, 2011, 05:43:00 PM

Thanks Gerd. You are right,  I should have checked in Blanchard before posting. I'm not clear what separates N. albidus from N. cantabricus. Perhaps Rafa can offer an opinion?

Title: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Rafa on March 01, 2011, 08:53:03 PM

Gerry, I never seen this N. albidus in the wild, but I would say it is the same species than N. albicans, or a north African speciation from the same species. Saying this In my opinion there are 3 forms of N. albicans and (f. cantabricus, f. intermedia and f. bulbocodium) To me N. albidus is N. albicans f. cantabricus, impossible to make the differences trough pictures. I think I posted before these pictures, all of them are N. albicans.

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on March 04, 2011, 11:34:08 AM

There is a new thread for March Narcissus :
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6856.0

There may be  some posts there which refer back to this thread.  ;)

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: bettyclark on March 10, 2011, 01:31:33 AM

It seems all foram members quote  Blanchards and Jim wells books but has anyone ever read The American Horticultural magazine  Jan !966 Vol 45  I have it but there is also another Vol 40  by F>S>meyer 1961 Wild Narc exploring.  I have not been able to find one but Vol 45 I find I cannot do without.        bettyclark.

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ashley on March 10, 2011, 10:34:23 AM

Thanks for bringing up these important articles Betty.  What a shame they're so hard to track down. 
However other, more accessible, material can be found through this list of digitized books & articles (http://daffodilusa.org/references/references.html#Books) on the American Daffodil Society website.   

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on March 10, 2011, 02:05:28 PM

Quote from: ashley on March 10, 2011, 10:34:23 AM

Thanks for bringing up these important articles Betty.  What a shame they're so hard to track down. 
However other, more accessible, material can be found through this list of digitized books & articles (http://daffodilusa.org/references/references.html#Books) on the American Daffodil Society website.   

Ashley - many thanks for the link - very useful.

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on March 10, 2011, 08:35:46 PM

Very useful link, Thanks Ashley.

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: bettyclark on March 11, 2011, 03:54:50 AM

My n albidus is much more bulbous looking than those I have seen on the foram. This is what I know. White flowers 20mmDiam Petals as long as corona with a green cast  Anthers widely separated pollen yellow,  Hope this will be of some help. X American Hort Society 1945.   Betty clark.

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ielaba2011 on March 18, 2011, 06:10:47 AM

Hi everyone,
this is Narcissus bulbocodium as you could find it in the Portuguese mountains of Montejunto (north of Lisbon), just near my house some two weeks ago. I Love them:)

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: annew on March 18, 2011, 08:03:32 AM

A wonderful sight, Jaime.

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Gerry Webster on March 18, 2011, 09:46:53 AM

Fantastic Jaime. I hope the site is protected.

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Nick_the_grief on March 18, 2011, 09:06:03 PM

Quote from: Rafa on February 26, 2011, 08:40:53 PM

some piectures from this evening

So thats how you find these in the wild  ;D  Althea has a nose for it!!

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: art600 on March 18, 2011, 10:19:09 PM

Here are some Narcissus currently in bloom in my bulb house.

The first two I have as N. fernandesii - is this correct

The last one has no name - can someone hazard a guess at what it might be.

Thanks

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: ielaba2011 on March 19, 2011, 07:35:42 AM

Anne,
thank you.They are a rather diminished species, but it stands out for it´s strong color. And sure they are beautiful!!

Hi Gerry,
the mountain itself is a natural site protected by law. But the greatest protection comes from the fact that the site is somewhat difficult to access because it´s located on a steeper slope of the mountain where only hiking people goes...and I think these people are interested in keeping sites like these. Unfortunately wild fires are the biggest problem, as they seem to happen once every 10 years.

Hi Arthur,
it could well be the same as in my picture, Narcissus bulbocodium, as it seems to have the same shape of the corolla...but I know nothing about the classification of Narcissus species..

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on March 19, 2011, 09:50:44 AM

Quote from: art600 on March 18, 2011, 10:19:09 PM

Here are some Narcissus currently in bloom in my bulb house.

The first two I have as N. fernandesii - is this correct

The last one has no name - can someone hazard a guess at what it might be.

Thanks

Art, it's the middle of March :P

Your first one is N. fernandesii, probably var. cordubensis. Your second a nice bulbocodium.

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: TheNorm on March 22, 2011, 02:07:42 PM

Hi everyone,

This is my first post on the Narcissus pages, being as I am, largely a Galanthophile.  Hopefully I'm not out of my depth here as someone who is just getting into species and dwarf Narcisssus.

I have a questions please.  I bought a couple of bulbs of N. jacetanus this year, which have done very well and their ovaries are swelling up with seed.  My question is this; what should I do to ensure good germination as this is the first time that I have tried to propagate Narcissus from seed.

I am pretty sure that they will be true to type as there weren't any other Narcissus in the the garden when they were in flower, but pollen could have come from elsewhere possibly.  Regardless, would someone be so kind as to give me their best advice on timings, soil mixes for pots and positions for best success please?

Many thanks,


Lewis

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on March 22, 2011, 03:57:25 PM

Lewis, swelling pods are not always a guarantee of seed within.  :-\

 Still, hope costs nothing and you will find a good deal about  collecting, storing and sowing narcissus seed in Ian's many years of Bulb Log Diaries....
http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/index.php?log=bulb (http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/index.php?log=bulb)       main page with years 2009 to 2011
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/bulblog.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/bulblog.html)      page with years 2003 to 2008


 Len Rhind's Index to the Bulb Log is here: http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/index.pdf (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/index.pdf)


 These are just a few  references....seed 6/06   (numbers equate to  Week 6 of year 2006)
collecting 49/06
seed sown at depth 43/05
storing 49/06
germinating 49/06


Seed
cleaning 24/04
germination rate 4/07
sowing 49/04 49/06
sown deep 46/05
storage 22/06 49/06 22/07
stored in sand 43/05

Potting compost receipe 26/07
Potting mix, loam-free 24/05

Compost 49/06
mixing (cement mixer) 31/05
mixture 4/05
test, sand based 34/05

............
 You should find some useful info there.  ;)

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: TheNorm on March 22, 2011, 04:28:08 PM

Hi Maggi,

I'm an eternal optimist, brutal realism has no place in my life.  So, while the chances of me actually getting any seeds that may have set to develop and grow without me accidentally losing, destroying or in some other bizarre way killing them is unlikely based on my current life chaos, I must believe it possible.

I trust that was you using your encyclopedic knowledge for those references!?  Very helpful as always. 

Many thanks.  I will check them out.

Cheers,



Lewis

Title: Re: February Narcissus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on March 22, 2011, 04:53:27 PM

Quote

using your encyclopedic knowledge

No, Len's fab index!!  ;D :D :D